What's wrong with the Quattro

Started 2 months ago | Discussions
RitterRunkel
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Re: What's wrong with the Quattro
In reply to mroy, 2 months ago

mroy wrote:

Third, the sharpening artifacts in the q are disturbing. The M image does not show that kind of damage. At that point it's even more difficult to properly compare the two images.

Maybe you could try try the "haze removal" sharpening technique on the q image? It's really very detailed.

There is no 'haze removal' sharpening technique.

Of course there is. Since he put the quotation marks you should have noticed it's not the scientific description but a known synonym substitute. And Richard is right imho, you should try other sharpening methods. USM, Local contrast, clarity, etc. Me myself like deconvolution. The choice is yours. But with USM applied that heavily you damaged the image detail making a comparison worthless.

Of course you should accept that sharpening is pp and maybe also accept that's not me not being able to read (regarding your subject above).

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jennyrae
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Re: Has it ever occured to you
In reply to mroy, 2 months ago

you mean Merrill sensor. Foveon sensors prior to Merrills render somehow the same as Quattro. Merrill is different than earlier Foveon despite X3 formula application.

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Lin Evans
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Is this what you want to see???
In reply to mroy, 2 months ago

Look at 100% at the area bounded by the four red arrows. Is this what you would prefer to see with the Quattro? If so, it took me exactly 12 seconds to get this.

You have way oversharpened the original. There is no need to create sharpening halos to get the microcontrast as I have it in the square area...

Best regards,

Lin

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unknown member
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No, that's not what I want to see
In reply to Lin Evans, 2 months ago

Lin Evans wrote:

Look at 100% at the area bounded by the four red arrows. Is this what you would prefer to see with the Quattro? If so, it took me exactly 12 seconds to get this.

You have way oversharpened the original. There is no need to create sharpening halos to get the microcontrast as I have it in the square area...

Best regards,

Lin

Also: applying a USM of 100% and radius 1 to such a high-pixel JPG is in no way oversharpening but rather perfectly reasonable in most circumstances - keep in mind that DPR for instance applies a USM of 100% and a radius of 0,6 with threshold 0 to all RAW comparisons.

I agree though that in this case (DP2 Quattro) something strange is going on and the JPGs do not take 'kindly' to normal USM.

I don't see any improvements in my image, regardless of the level of sharpening (or non-sharpening) in SPP and playing around with different USM settings, which would come near to what I'm used to from my DP2 Merrill.

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In reply to JohnLindroth, 2 months ago

JohnLindroth wrote:

The Q image is nothing like the M, and much worse.

Can you post the Q image with sharpening set to 0 and no extra sharpening?

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at DPR for the month, unfortunately.

But rest assured: lots of experts here on this forum will tell you that the Q image is perfectly fine

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Wesley Wong
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Re: Thanks, Wesley!
In reply to mroy, 2 months ago

Thanks mroy! The collaboration with Ming Thein is exciting, challenging and fun. Above all, we strive to push the limits of capture and output, mitigating every pitfall in every part of the workflow as much as possible.

SPP 6.0.4 is officially out today as anticipated but the one to watch out for is available next week i.e. 6.0.5. Hopefully that will resolve certain image quality issues upon RAW to TIFF/JPEG conversion.

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Lin Evans
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Re: No, that's not what I want to see
In reply to mroy, 2 months ago

Did you "Look" at the area bounded by the four red arrows at 100%?

Also: applying a USM of 100% and radius 1 to such a high-pixel JPG is in no way oversharpening but rather perfectly reasonable in most circumstances - keep in mind that DPR for instance applies a USM of 100% and a radius of 0,6 with threshold 0 to all RAW comparisons.

Anytime you create sharpening halos (there are plenty of them in the above image) you have opersharpened. The percentage of USM and radius is totally immaterial.

I agree though that in this case (DP2 Quattro) something strange is going on and the JPGs do not take 'kindly' to normal USM.

I don't see any improvements in my image, regardless of the level of sharpening (or non-sharpening) in SPP and playing around with different USM settings, which would come near to what I'm used to from my DP2 Merrill.

Again, did you actually "look" at the area bounded by the four red arrows at 100%?

Best regards,

Lin

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Why do you think I didn't look?
In reply to Lin Evans, 2 months ago

Lin Evans wrote:

Did you "Look" at the area bounded by the four red arrows at 100%?

Also: applying a USM of 100% and radius 1 to such a high-pixel JPG is in no way oversharpening but rather perfectly reasonable in most circumstances - keep in mind that DPR for instance applies a USM of 100% and a radius of 0,6 with threshold 0 to all RAW comparisons.

Anytime you create sharpening halos (there are plenty of them in the above image) you have opersharpened. The percentage of USM and radius is totally immaterial.

Did you read what I wrote below?

I agree though that in this case (DP2 Quattro) something strange is going on and the JPGs do not take 'kindly' to normal USM.

I don't see any improvements in my image, regardless of the level of sharpening (or non-sharpening) in SPP and playing around with different USM settings, which would come near to what I'm used to from my DP2 Merrill.

Again, did you actually "look" at the area bounded by the four red arrows at 100%?

Again: why do you ask again? I'm out - this is becoming stupid.

Best regards,

Lin

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Lin Evans
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Re: Why do you think I didn't look?
In reply to mroy, 2 months ago

mroy wrote:

Lin Evans wrote:

Did you "Look" at the area bounded by the four red arrows at 100%?

Again: why do you ask again? I'm out - this is becoming stupid.

Best regards,

Lin

I asked because you appear to be totally hung up on "sharpening." I did zero sharpening in that area and you did not address the area I asked about, instead you reiterated what you have said before and apparently "assumed" that it has to do with sharpening. It does not. You have failed to enunciate clearly what it is that you don't like about the Q image. I find it impossible to follow your thinking or understand clearly what it is that you want to see differently. Words like "plain wrong" simply do not convey anthing other than a subjective emotion.

I can make your entire Q image look identical to your Merrill image except it will have greater detail and resolution which go hand-in-hand. It will also have more uniform color with better transitions between areas of color.

Your mind is made up so no need to answer, but understand that sharpening is not the answer and that regardless that you "believe" that you should be able to add a certain degree and radius of sharpening to an image, you can't make that assumption. There are too many variables which have to be considered. As others have told you, present the image unsharpened and only then can it be properly manipulated to get maximum micro-contrast.

Regards,

Lin

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Scottelly
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Re: What's wrong with the Quattro
In reply to mroy, 2 months ago

There you go again, trying to compare two photos of the same scene, shot on different days. You can't compare photos like that and expect good, reliable results! Hell . . . you can't even shoot two photos 1 hour apart, let alone 1 month apart! Atmospheric conditions CHANGE! And YES, part of it COULD be due to atmospheric conditions. Do the Quattro and Merrill differ? Sure. The colors look different. We know that already. Both of those photos look just fine to me, but to say one is wrong and one is right is a matter of taste. Like Shakespeare wrote, "Nothing is either right or wrong, but thinking makes it so."

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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What is it?
In reply to mroy, 2 months ago

mroy wrote:

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

How do you find it wrong?

To me it seems odd the Quattro would be worse in print as the background trees look more detailed than the Merrill.

What does need more work is sharpening artifacts from SPP though. I was thinking that may be your real issue with the image...

Have you tried using Mike's recent approach of sharpening all the way down and then re-sharpening?

if you can't find anything wrong.

And no - this has nothing to do with sharpening artifacts in SPP - sounds like clutching at straw to me.

I'm not clutching at straws.  I'm looking t the image at 100% and see more fine detail on the trees in the background - if it were mushy I could understand what you mean.

Rather than insult me can you educate me instead as to what it is you see that is wrong please?  I'm not trying to make excuses, I'm trying to figure out what aspect you do not like to see if it can be fixed or improved in some way.

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webrunner5
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Re: What is it?
In reply to Kendall Helmstetter Gelner, 2 months ago

It is WAY too early to draw any real conclusions yet. I agree it seems like the Quattro has more MP's but not sure yet it has the Micro Contrast that the Merrills have. If it is more Bayerish I won't have nothing to do with it. I will just buy the Nikon 810 simple as that. I am sort of getting sick and tired of goofy Reds on my Sigmas, not counting goofy other problems. Maybe the Quattro is better who knows yet. But they NEED to make a camera that you can rely on to get the shot, not hope it did. If you had to make a living shooting shots with a Sigma only you would be out of business in a pretty short amount of time. When they work they really work, when they don't they just suck. Simple as that.

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unknown member
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Boy, can nobody read anymore?
In reply to jennyrae, 2 months ago

you mean Merrill sensor. Foveon sensors prior to Merrills render somehow the same as Quattro. Merrill is different than earlier Foveon despite X3 formula application.

Hint: count the mentioning of 'Merrill' in my post.

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CMurdock
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Re: What's wrong with the Quattro
In reply to mroy, 2 months ago

MRoy, your pictures don't make a good comparison, first because they are severely over-sharpened, and second because the conditions are just too different.  If you have both cameras, then go back and take the pictures at the same time.  My concern with the Quattro is that the reds are not reproduced well (judging from what I've seen in other threads).

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