Moire anyone?

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veroman
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Moire anyone?
2 months ago

I've just experienced moire with my E-P5 for the first time (fences on dunes). Not too surprised given the sensor design. I'd gotten used to it with my E-5. Hope it isn't as common an occurrence with my M4:3 cams. Anyone else experiencing this?

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Michael L NYC 99
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Re: Moire anyone?
In reply to veroman, 2 months ago

I can't see the moire on your shot given the file size as I can't get in close enough, but that probably means it's not that visible from a normal viewing distance.

I have seen moire on my E-M10 using the 9-18 lens.

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Michael

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Bob Tullis
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Re: Moire anyone?
In reply to veroman, 2 months ago

I've noticed it arising more with the E-M1 than with the E-M5, but not much at that. Where I do see it I lay LR's oval gradient on it and increase the Moire slider strength, and that's that. (I don't shoot much that would exhibit moire moire than that).

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veroman
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Re: Moire anyone?
In reply to Bob Tullis, 2 months ago

Bob Tullis wrote:

I've noticed it arising more with the E-M1 than with the E-M5, but not much at that. Where I do see it I lay LR's oval gradient on it and increase the Moire slider strength, and that's that. (I don't shoot much that would exhibit moire moire than that).

Thanks Bob. I'll try that correction method and see what happens.

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Tom Axford
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Re: Moire anyone?
In reply to veroman, 2 months ago

The only moire I can see is due to the arrangement of the fence and has nothing to do with the camera - it would be visible with the naked eye and recorded by any camera.

You're more likely to see moire on patterns that are close to the resolution of the sensor (i.e. the pixel spacing in the sensor). Often it is visible on fabrics when the pattern made by the weave of the fabric just happens to be close to the pixel spacing on the sensor. The pattern itself may not be fully visible as it may be too small for the sensor to resolve. However, the moire bands may be visible even though the weave is not.

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sigala1
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Need to evaluate full-size image
In reply to veroman, 2 months ago

You can't learn anything about sensor-moire from a downsampled image.

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veroman
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Re: Moire anyone?
In reply to Tom Axford, 2 months ago

Tom Axford wrote:

The only moire I can see is due to the arrangement of the fence and has nothing to do with the camera - it would be visible with the naked eye and recorded by any camera.

Moire is not visible to the naked eye. If only it were!

Moire is a technical issue that goes back to the days of film and offset printing, when a pattern in the image conflicted with the dot screen (usually a fine screen). It has since been carried over to digital, where a pattern in the object being photographed clashes or conflicts with the resolution and other aspects of the sensor.

Yes, the arrangement of the fencing contributed to the moire in my photograph. But it was also caused by the fine lines of the metal wires that connect the fences. This isn't something that would be ... or could be ... recorded by "any" camera. I'm sure I could go back to the same scene and shoot it with my Canon 40D or other older body and not see moire this obvious in the image. My Canon 5D would probably capture it (as it did so many other times in so many instances), and I'm sure my Olympus E-5 would capture it. Don't know about my E-1, though.

You're more likely to see moire on patterns that are close to the resolution of the sensor (i.e. the pixel spacing in the sensor). Often it is visible on fabrics when the pattern made by the weave of the fabric just happens to be close to the pixel spacing on the sensor. The pattern itself may not be fully visible as it may be too small for the sensor to resolve. However, the moire bands may be visible even though the weave is not.

Exactly. That's why there's a moire pattern in my image (as well as jaggies!). The grain of the wood strips and the metal attaching the wood strips are very fine indeed. At that distance, neither the wood grain and metal were recored very well by the camera, but it was all very well translated into a moire pattern.

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veroman
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Re: Need to evaluate full-size image ...
In reply to sigala1, 2 months ago

sigala1 wrote:

You can't learn anything about sensor-moire from a downsampled image.

You're absolutely right! Just a few minutes ago I checked the full size image and looked at it at 100%. I was about to post when I saw your message.

There's no moire. I was mistaken ... and after all these years I should have known better. It's a side effect of the downsampling.

Here's the 100% crop:

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Big Ga
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Re: Need to evaluate full-size image ...
In reply to veroman, 2 months ago

veroman wrote:

There's no moire.

Post the whole image at full resolution. I bet you there is moire somewhere. Certainly there will be colour artifacting. I can even see it in the fence as it is.

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veroman
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Re: Need to evaluate full-size image ...
In reply to Big Ga, 2 months ago

Big Ga wrote:

veroman wrote:

There's no moire.

Post the whole image at full resolution. I bet you there is moire somewhere. Certainly there will be colour artifacting. I can even see it in the fence as it is.

I don't think it's necessary to post the whole image, full rez. I have no doubt there's moire in there somewhere; jaggies and colour artifacts as well. But the gross example that was initially shown was certainly caused by the downsizing.

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Big Ga
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Re: Need to evaluate full-size image ...
In reply to veroman, 2 months ago

veroman wrote:

Big Ga wrote:

veroman wrote:

There's no moire.

Post the whole image at full resolution. I bet you there is moire somewhere. Certainly there will be colour artifacting. I can even see it in the fence as it is.

I don't think it's necessary to post the whole image, full rez. I have no doubt there's moire in there somewhere; jaggies and colour artifacts as well. But the gross example that was initially shown was certainly caused by the downsizing.

Yea, but I thought this was a technical photography forum. Your initial post was specifically about moire, so why not post the whole full rez image? I find it fascinating that so many people here are obsessive over sharpness, yet don't seem to want to discuss the other downsides that come with it when the OLPF is omitted.

Go on ... post the whole thing so we can have an investigation and discussion! just for starters, those fence posts sure look a strange colour to me!! can't anybody else see that?

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veroman
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Re: Need to evaluate full-size image ...
In reply to Big Ga, 2 months ago

Big Ga wrote:

veroman wrote:

Big Ga wrote:

veroman wrote:

There's no moire.

Post the whole image at full resolution. I bet you there is moire somewhere. Certainly there will be colour artifacting. I can even see it in the fence as it is.

I don't think it's necessary to post the whole image, full rez. I have no doubt there's moire in there somewhere; jaggies and colour artifacts as well. But the gross example that was initially shown was certainly caused by the downsizing.

Yea, but I thought this was a technical photography forum. Your initial post was specifically about moire, so why not post the whole full rez image? I find it fascinating that so many people here are obsessive over sharpness, yet don't seem to want to discuss the other downsides that come with it when the OLPF is omitted.

Go on ... post the whole thing so we can have an investigation and discussion! just for starters, those fence posts sure look a strange colour to me!! can't anybody else see that?

Are you asking for "full size" @ 72dpi or "full size/full rez" @ 300dpi? The latter would take forever to load and review, if at all. Not sure what you're asking for ... or why.

As far as the fence color goes, the photo was shot (obviously) just before full sunset, with the setting sun shining right on the posts. Other than pulling back on the yellow a little bit 'cause I thought there was too much, that's pretty much the color of those posts at that time; tan with a bit of setting-sun, golden yellow/brown.

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Torsten Hoff
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Re: Moire anyone?
In reply to veroman, 2 months ago

I encountered a significant amount of moiré for the first time earlier this week with the tulle fabric of a black tutu. The fabric is curved and layered, and this created interference patterns especially when there were bright colors in the background. The areas affected were obvious when pixel-peeping at full-resolution, but you had to know where it was at when viewing the same image downsampled for viewing on the screen or when printed.

Having said that, I was pleased with Lightroom's handling of the moiré using its dedicated adjustment brush. Unlike with other brushes the effect is difficult to see as you paint with it, but once Lightroom finishes its processing it is quite obvious.

If you frequently shoot weddings etc. where lace and similar fabrics are common, dealing with the moiré could add to your post-processing time, but for most users and subjects it appears to be a non-issue.

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Big Ga
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Re: Need to evaluate full-size image ...
In reply to veroman, 2 months ago

veroman wrote:

Big Ga wrote:

veroman wrote:

Big Ga wrote:

veroman wrote:

There's no moire.

Post the whole image at full resolution. I bet you there is moire somewhere. Certainly there will be colour artifacting. I can even see it in the fence as it is.

I don't think it's necessary to post the whole image, full rez. I have no doubt there's moire in there somewhere; jaggies and colour artifacts as well. But the gross example that was initially shown was certainly caused by the downsizing.

Yea, but I thought this was a technical photography forum. Your initial post was specifically about moire, so why not post the whole full rez image? I find it fascinating that so many people here are obsessive over sharpness, yet don't seem to want to discuss the other downsides that come with it when the OLPF is omitted.

Go on ... post the whole thing so we can have an investigation and discussion! just for starters, those fence posts sure look a strange colour to me!! can't anybody else see that?

Are you asking for "full size" @ 72dpi or "full size/full rez" @ 300dpi?

How bizarre. DPI is a meaningless metric when looking at pixels.

The latter would take forever to load and review, if at all. Not sure what you're asking for ... or why

Hard to tell if you're serious here. Have you been drinking? are you extracting the urine, or are you genuinely clueless?

As far as the fence color goes, the photo was shot (obviously) just before full sunset, with the setting sun shining right on the posts. Other than pulling back on the yellow a little bit 'cause I thought there was too much, that's pretty much the color of those posts at that time; tan with a bit of setting-sun, golden yellow/brown.

I'm referring to the background part of the fence where the wood seems to have taken on purple and green hues. Or haven't you been able to see that?

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rovingtim
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Only trolls see artefacts or CA in Oly files.
In reply to Big Ga, 2 months ago

Big Ga wrote:

veroman wrote:

As far as the fence color goes, the photo was shot (obviously) just before full sunset, with the setting sun shining right on the posts. Other than pulling back on the yellow a little bit 'cause I thought there was too much, that's pretty much the color of those posts at that time; tan with a bit of setting-sun, golden yellow/brown.

I'm referring to the background part of the fence where the wood seems to have taken on purple and green hues. Or haven't you been able to see that?

Big Ga, you are a troll!

Just to be clear, obviously the fence is naturally purple and green. So is much of the world. The files posted on this forum prove it. Only the older Oly models can't capture the true dazzling colour of the real world.

Now, where's that complaint button?

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veroman
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Re: Only trolls see artefacts or CA in Oly files.
In reply to rovingtim, 2 months ago

rovingtim wrote:

Only the older Oly models can't capture the true dazzling color of the real world.

"Can't" or "Can?"

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Big Ga
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Re: Only trolls see artefacts or CA in Oly files.
In reply to veroman, 2 months ago

veroman wrote:

rovingtim wrote:

Only the older Oly models can't capture the true dazzling color of the real world.

"Can't" or "Can?"

Depends on your point of view.

The newer cameras sure seem to produce more colourful images, its just a question of whether those colours are supposed to be there in real life and that's what you want to capture, or if one actually prefers the twisted technicolour reality that is now presented before us.

So are those fenceposts in the background green and purple in real life?

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secretworld
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Re: Only trolls see artefacts or CA in Oly files.
In reply to Big Ga, 2 months ago

Remember that the kind of moiré you were showing can also happen from sharpening to much (or with wrong pixelsize). For example when you download a raw from the new DPR test, when sharpening you can see all kinds of patterns emerge when using the sharpness and pixelsize parameters in the resolution charts and circles.

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Ednaz
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yes, fabrics are common problems
In reply to Torsten Hoff, 2 months ago

I've run across moire issues with many different cameras over time, and almost every time it's been caused by the texture of a fabric.  Oxford cloth mens' dress shirts have caught me out so many times that when I'm doing executive portraits, I tell them not to wear an oxford cloth shirt.

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