Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot

Started 6 months ago | Discussions
Conrad567
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Re: Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot
In reply to Chad Hardy, 6 months ago

Fill flash, his friends camera was set to fire the flash either in backlit situations or just set to fire all the time.

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oklaphotog
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Re: Here is the photo.
In reply to mistermejia, 6 months ago

Well judging from the OOC Jpeg shot, it's a good 2-3 stops under exposed in general, and opening the lens a bit would have helped the overall exposure as well as helped the fill flash. Those little pop-up's just don't have much power. If turning them into the sun a bit to help fill the subjects would have left you with a distracting or bad background, then more flash power is about all you can do if you don't have HSS allowing for a much wider aperture (or if you wanted the DOF and it still required the small aperture). HSS is a double edged sword though because it looses a lot of guide number, thus requiring an even bigger unit to get the job done. A reflector could have helped as well, but if you don't want to carry a flash, then you probably don't want to carry a reflector.

Although I am mainly a Canon shooter, I do use an X10 as well. One of the reasons why I bought the X10 was specifically because it will sync all the way to 1/4000th on the shoe due to it's electronic shutter. I sometimes use it outdoors with studio lights when I don't want to or cannot use an ND on my slr. Most P&S cams have wide apertures and the ability to sync flash very fast due to not having a mechanical shutter and this is partly the reason why the Sony pocket cam did what it did. You'd be surprised what you can do with something like an X10 and an old tiny manual shoe flash in a situation like this.

With that said, sometimes you have to use the whole photographic process to work around scene and/or gear limitations. In this case, not having HSS and/or enough flash power for the required composition requires solving it in the darkroom step. You're raw image with the shadows pulled is an easy quick fix in photoshop. Processing the raw is just part of that darkroom step. Compared to film, photoshop is your enlarger and hands, and where you need to dodge and burn a little. I can post a quick sloppy edit of that pulled raw image if you like.

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mr moonlight
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Re: Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot
In reply to mistermejia, 6 months ago

mistermejia wrote:

Jit L wrote:

Hi mistermejia, which metering mode did you use? I had similar issues in the past with my X-E1 and I found adjusting the metering mode helps plus the AF box as well.

Multi, i guess what the nikon would call it matrix. I tried all three different metering settings. For that situation spot gave me the best to boost the subject in front, but i would have to sacrifice the beautiful background because it would have blown the highlights as always.

What some people here don't understand is that i DID tried shooting that scene in different ways, in manual, A, S, I tried all dynamic ranges and ISO, and yes, that first photo was shot in full AUTO. Like i said, i CAN expose the subject with the camera, i am not stupid, but i would have to sacrifice the background. That's why i re-shot that portrait in RAW to fix it later, since i did not have my SB600 with me. And the pop up flash of the XE1 i find it very weak for those situations indeed.

It is very funny to me when someone jumps right away to insult you without knowing anything about you or not knowing what else you tried already. The usual comment: "I'm sorry but my advice is for you to learn the camera, you shot it wrong, the camera was in AUTO, you needed a ND filter bla bla bla"...

Although you did sort of set yourself up for it. You started out saying you got out shot by a $125 P&S! Twice!

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djezraj
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Re: Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot
In reply to mistermejia, 6 months ago

mistermejia wrote:

Jit L wrote:

Hi mistermejia, which metering mode did you use? I had similar issues in the past with my X-E1 and I found adjusting the metering mode helps plus the AF box as well.

Multi, i guess what the nikon would call it matrix. I tried all three different metering settings. For that situation spot gave me the best to boost the subject in front, but i would have to sacrifice the beautiful background because it would have blown the highlights as always.

What some people here don't understand is that i DID tried shooting that scene in different ways, in manual, A, S, I tried all dynamic ranges and ISO, and yes, that first photo was shot in full AUTO. Like i said, i CAN expose the subject with the camera, i am not stupid, but i would have to sacrifice the background. That's why i re-shot that portrait in RAW to fix it later, since i did not have my SB600 with me. And the pop up flash of the XE1 i find it very weak for those situations indeed.

It is very funny to me when someone jumps right away to insult you without knowing anything about you or not knowing what else you tried already. The usual comment: "I'm sorry but my advice is for you to learn the camera, you shot it wrong, the camera was in AUTO, you needed a ND filter bla bla bla"...

Personally I think there are situations where P&S works better than the Fuji and I use my Canon S100 or iPhone 5 for those. But when I really want to bring out those colors, sharpness, beautiful bokeh from the old manual lenses I turn to Fuji. Probably not the answer you were looking for, just my personal view. Good luck!

I agree. some point and shoot do some things better. I think that better performance or functions of the point and shoot should also be included in the more expensive bodies as well. Isn't that what we are paying for after all, to take easier and faster good looking photos?

I don't have a problem in shooting raw and fixing later, but i do have lots of family in different parts of the world, and i wanted to post THAT photo in facebook right there at that moment, not three days later

Hi Mistermejia. Looking at your posts and history I see a familiar pattern in my own development. It was very often that my Dslr would either produce underexposed subjects or blown out backgrounds. This in stark contrast to some Point and shoots and especially my iPhone using the HDR function which works very well.

So two things are true 1. The iPhone as well as many P&S cameras have incredible jpeg processing, for example Sony's DRO does get high praise. 2. larger sensor cameras such as DSLR and mirror less systems that are geared towards the "pro" or enthusiast market can get equal results but in some cases more work.

I would add that any camera with a leaf shutter does have an advantage and if you discover this I am not sure this is the sole reason for your example.

So If I were to take a guess at what happened at the beach my best guess says that the Sonny has a very good auto mode and auto DRO because it assumes the user has less knowledge or less ambition to decide the best settings, so Sony does this for them,

You may have been better off with auto everything with the Fuji, In the Q menu try these settings DR either auto or 200 (400 may look to washed out) aperture auto and ISO auto. You can also set the Hi tone to -2 to reduce contrast in the hi lights and of course Low tone -2 to bring up the dark contrast. I prefer Pro Neg std for skin tones and hi contrasty backlit scenes but Astia is also nice.

At this point you may want to save these preferences as a custom setting.

When looking at the screen make sure the camera is letting you preview exposure so you can see the blown out background live. The histogram will also help with this. You can then either use the Exp compensation dial or point the relative centre of the frame to the sky and lock the exposure with the AE lock button (this takes a bit of "button click" practice)

If you are really feeling daring.Again with everything on auto use the menu to put the flash in auto and pop it up. For me in this mode my Xe-2 never misses, however if i override the auto modes the flash will revert to default. You can also dial the flash down in the main menu.

So if you have read this and are thinking (too much work... ) Then perhaps the Sony route all fit your style better for now? No shame in a system thats auto mode suits you better.

The X series above the M1 and A1 perhaps are too manual for some. Fuji allows so much user intervention perhaps this is too much for others. For me it is perfect but I admit it takes some getting used to.

It is natural to flip flop between worlds 1. you want to learn 2. you want it to just know what you want. Each brand has its advantages disadvantages.

Despite the excellent DRO the Sony systems save for the A7 require to much menu diving for me but I can see how a RX100 or a A6000 might suit you better personally .

Before making any rash decisions perhaps try the all auto mode with Kit lens and let the camera do what it does, and analyze what settings it chooses. Also tr the film and shadow settings on the same scene and see how close you can get.

I hope this helps

Roger

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mistermejia
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Re: Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot
In reply to djezraj, 6 months ago

djezraj wrote:

mistermejia wrote:

Jit L wrote:

Hi mistermejia, which metering mode did you use? I had similar issues in the past with my X-E1 and I found adjusting the metering mode helps plus the AF box as well.

Multi, i guess what the nikon would call it matrix. I tried all three different metering settings. For that situation spot gave me the best to boost the subject in front, but i would have to sacrifice the beautiful background because it would have blown the highlights as always.

What some people here don't understand is that i DID tried shooting that scene in different ways, in manual, A, S, I tried all dynamic ranges and ISO, and yes, that first photo was shot in full AUTO. Like i said, i CAN expose the subject with the camera, i am not stupid, but i would have to sacrifice the background. That's why i re-shot that portrait in RAW to fix it later, since i did not have my SB600 with me. And the pop up flash of the XE1 i find it very weak for those situations indeed.

It is very funny to me when someone jumps right away to insult you without knowing anything about you or not knowing what else you tried already. The usual comment: "I'm sorry but my advice is for you to learn the camera, you shot it wrong, the camera was in AUTO, you needed a ND filter bla bla bla"...

Personally I think there are situations where P&S works better than the Fuji and I use my Canon S100 or iPhone 5 for those. But when I really want to bring out those colors, sharpness, beautiful bokeh from the old manual lenses I turn to Fuji. Probably not the answer you were looking for, just my personal view. Good luck!

I agree. some point and shoot do some things better. I think that better performance or functions of the point and shoot should also be included in the more expensive bodies as well. Isn't that what we are paying for after all, to take easier and faster good looking photos?

I don't have a problem in shooting raw and fixing later, but i do have lots of family in different parts of the world, and i wanted to post THAT photo in facebook right there at that moment, not three days later

Hi Mistermejia. Looking at your posts and history I see a familiar pattern in my own development. It was very often that my Dslr would either produce underexposed subjects or blown out backgrounds. This in stark contrast to some Point and shoots and especially my iPhone using the HDR function which works very well.

So two things are true 1. The iPhone as well as many P&S cameras have incredible jpeg processing, for example Sony's DRO does get high praise. 2. larger sensor cameras such as DSLR and mirror less systems that are geared towards the "pro" or enthusiast market can get equal results but in some cases more work.

I would add that any camera with a leaf shutter does have an advantage and if you discover this I am not sure this is the sole reason for your example.

So If I were to take a guess at what happened at the beach my best guess says that the Sonny has a very good auto mode and auto DRO because it assumes the user has less knowledge or less ambition to decide the best settings, so Sony does this for them,

You may have been better off with auto everything with the Fuji, In the Q menu try these settings DR either auto or 200 (400 may look to washed out) aperture auto and ISO auto. You can also set the Hi tone to -2 to reduce contrast in the hi lights and of course Low tone -2 to bring up the dark contrast. I prefer Pro Neg std for skin tones and hi contrasty backlit scenes but Astia is also nice.

I did tried everything in auto, except AUTO FLASH, i believe i set it to Force Flash.  I'll try auto next time, then again by that time i will know to take the SB600 instead  

The tone i did have it set to i believe 0 or -1.  I'll try that next time just for fun but i don't think it would make a big difference.

At this point you may want to save these preferences as a custom setting.

When looking at the screen make sure the camera is letting you preview exposure so you can see the blown out background live. The histogram will also help with this. You can then either use the Exp compensation dial or point the relative centre of the frame to the sky and lock the exposure with the AE lock button (this takes a bit of "button click" practice)

If you are really feeling daring.Again with everything on auto use the menu to put the flash in auto and pop it up. For me in this mode my Xe-2 never misses, however if i override the auto modes the flash will revert to default. You can also dial the flash down in the main menu.

So if you have read this and are thinking (too much work... ) Then perhaps the Sony route all fit your style better for now? No shame in a system thats auto mode suits you better.

Functionality maybe, but color output, i am not sure.

The X series above the M1 and A1 perhaps are too manual for some. Fuji allows so much user intervention perhaps this is too much for others. For me it is perfect but I admit it takes some getting used to.

Well, as long as there is something in the menu that works I'm completely fine with user intervention and i don't have a problem with that.  But if the problem is not the user but the camera, i might have a problem there.  Honestly, since i would always read about Fuji's fantastic SOOC jpegs I "thought" these cameras were kind of "optimized" to do mostly everything in jpeg, and that includes exposure and flash, kind of like a point and shoot  

It is natural to flip flop between worlds 1. you want to learn 2. you want it to just know what you want. Each brand has its advantages disadvantages.

Correct.

Despite the excellent DRO the Sony systems save for the A7 require to much menu diving for me but I can see how a RX100 or a A6000 might suit you better personally .

I have never looked at this cameras before.  I'll check them out one of this days.  It would be very very hard for me at this point if i left Fuji.  I really really like the color output.  We'll see.

Before making any rash decisions perhaps try the all auto mode with Kit lens and let the camera do what it does, and analyze what settings it chooses. Also tr the film and shadow settings on the same scene and see how close you can get.

I'll try that, but then again what's the point if the photo comes out very dull with no color  

I hope this helps

It sure does Roger, thank you very much.  Very good constructive input.

Roger

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zkz5
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Re: Here is the photo.
In reply to Acrill, 6 months ago

Acrill wrote:

In your first photo, for instance, the camera cannot properly expose the scene with an Aperture of f/18 and an ISO of 200. It is simply not possible

Why not? Shutter was only 1/250.

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next shot
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Re: Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot
In reply to mistermejia, 6 months ago

Give me your XE1 and I will buy you a point and shoot with the green idiot button, or you could just learn photograph and keep the XE1.  Its better than a ps if you learn how to use it.

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Midwest
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In reply to mistermejia, 6 months ago

mistermejia wrote:

Well, i know what a point and shoot can and cannot do, but i will admit i had a pretty embarrassing moment this weekend.

You mentioned an expensive mirrorless OR DLSR in your title but you only gave an example of a mirrorless getting beat by the point and shoot.

Yes, any good camera can be complex enough that you can get bad results by setting it wrong, and I'm sure that's true of anything including a DSLR. But you only provided a mirrorless example.

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djezraj
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Re: Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot
In reply to mistermejia, 6 months ago

mistermejia wrote:

djezraj wrote:

mistermejia wrote:

Jit L wrote:

Hi mistermejia, which metering mode did you use? I had similar issues in the past with my X-E1 and I found adjusting the metering mode helps plus the AF box as well.

Multi, i guess what the nikon would call it matrix. I tried all three different metering settings. For that situation spot gave me the best to boost the subject in front, but i would have to sacrifice the beautiful background because it would have blown the highlights as always.

What some people here don't understand is that i DID tried shooting that scene in different ways, in manual, A, S, I tried all dynamic ranges and ISO, and yes, that first photo was shot in full AUTO. Like i said, i CAN expose the subject with the camera, i am not stupid, but i would have to sacrifice the background. That's why i re-shot that portrait in RAW to fix it later, since i did not have my SB600 with me. And the pop up flash of the XE1 i find it very weak for those situations indeed.

It is very funny to me when someone jumps right away to insult you without knowing anything about you or not knowing what else you tried already. The usual comment: "I'm sorry but my advice is for you to learn the camera, you shot it wrong, the camera was in AUTO, you needed a ND filter bla bla bla"...

Personally I think there are situations where P&S works better than the Fuji and I use my Canon S100 or iPhone 5 for those. But when I really want to bring out those colors, sharpness, beautiful bokeh from the old manual lenses I turn to Fuji. Probably not the answer you were looking for, just my personal view. Good luck!

I agree. some point and shoot do some things better. I think that better performance or functions of the point and shoot should also be included in the more expensive bodies as well. Isn't that what we are paying for after all, to take easier and faster good looking photos?

I don't have a problem in shooting raw and fixing later, but i do have lots of family in different parts of the world, and i wanted to post THAT photo in facebook right there at that moment, not three days later

Hi Mistermejia. Looking at your posts and history I see a familiar pattern in my own development. It was very often that my Dslr would either produce underexposed subjects or blown out backgrounds. This in stark contrast to some Point and shoots and especially my iPhone using the HDR function which works very well.

So two things are true 1. The iPhone as well as many P&S cameras have incredible jpeg processing, for example Sony's DRO does get high praise. 2. larger sensor cameras such as DSLR and mirror less systems that are geared towards the "pro" or enthusiast market can get equal results but in some cases more work.

I would add that any camera with a leaf shutter does have an advantage and if you discover this I am not sure this is the sole reason for your example.

So If I were to take a guess at what happened at the beach my best guess says that the Sonny has a very good auto mode and auto DRO because it assumes the user has less knowledge or less ambition to decide the best settings, so Sony does this for them,

You may have been better off with auto everything with the Fuji, In the Q menu try these settings DR either auto or 200 (400 may look to washed out) aperture auto and ISO auto. You can also set the Hi tone to -2 to reduce contrast in the hi lights and of course Low tone -2 to bring up the dark contrast. I prefer Pro Neg std for skin tones and hi contrasty backlit scenes but Astia is also nice.

I did tried everything in auto, except AUTO FLASH, i believe i set it to Force Flash. I'll try auto next time, then again by that time i will know to take the SB600 instead

The tone i did have it set to i believe 0 or -1. I'll try that next time just for fun but i don't think it would make a big difference.

The Lo tone set to -2 in combination with DR200 or 400 and the "less contrasty" Pro neg STD should help but your first example at the beach with the 2 subjects was quite underexposed. I do not believe an auto exposure would have throttled back on the exposure so hard. In fact auto may leave the sky a bit overexposed (which can be compensated for). Again you have to play and experiment with it to find your preference but for people I always use Pro Neg STD or Astia Provia and Velvia are for me to contrasty for skin tone.

Remember the tone curve of the Film mode contributes to the shadows as does the DR mode. DP review actually does a good job explaining the relationship of the DR modes and film modes in terms of the resulting tone curve or "resulting contrast" this helped me understand why my shots turned out the way they did.

At this point you may want to save these preferences as a custom setting.

When looking at the screen make sure the camera is letting you preview exposure so you can see the blown out background live. The histogram will also help with this. You can then either use the Exp compensation dial or point the relative centre of the frame to the sky and lock the exposure with the AE lock button (this takes a bit of "button click" practice)

If you are really feeling daring.Again with everything on auto use the menu to put the flash in auto and pop it up. For me in this mode my Xe-2 never misses, however if i override the auto modes the flash will revert to default. You can also dial the flash down in the main menu.

So if you have read this and are thinking (too much work... ) Then perhaps the Sony route all fit your style better for now? No shame in a system thats auto mode suits you better.

Functionality maybe, but color output, i am not sure.

Yeah I am not necessarily saying switch but can't hurt to try, The Sony colour is good perhaps typical of bayer mainstream brands. Good and safe. Nothing wrong with safe!

The X series above the M1 and A1 perhaps are too manual for some. Fuji allows so much user intervention perhaps this is too much for others. For me it is perfect but I admit it takes some getting used to.

Well, as long as there is something in the menu that works I'm completely fine with user intervention and i don't have a problem with that. But if the problem is not the user but the camera, i might have a problem there. Honestly, since i would always read about Fuji's fantastic SOOC jpegs I "thought" these cameras were kind of "optimized" to do mostly everything in jpeg, and that includes exposure and flash, kind of like a point and shoot

Please don't take this the wrong way when I suggest I feel it's the user, I mean this with the utmost respect for your photographic abilities. But there really is no right way for a camera to do your job (Auto) especially if you are not using it in the 100% auto mode.

Fuji has made a conscious choice to buck the trend of the modern Camera approach, The fact that one must make 3 modal changes 1. Aperture 2.shutter speed 3 iso and optionally  flash to equal a single Auto setting on other cameras certainly causes confusion with users wicking to switch modes quickly. Michael Reichman wrote a polarizing comment about the X-T1 in this regard. While shooting a model he sees a beautiful bird and swings up only to realize his settings for the model are not appropriate and he loses the shot.

Is Fuji to blame for releasing such a camera? This is the question we must ask is it us or is it them.

Perhaps we should have 2 cameras? or perhaps we should use an appropriate tool. Or maybe we can learn to adapt to what we have to reach a consensus or "good enough"

It is natural to flip flop between worlds 1. you want to learn 2. you want it to just know what you want. Each brand has its advantages disadvantages.

Correct.

Despite the excellent DRO the Sony systems save for the A7 require to much menu diving for me but I can see how a RX100 or a A6000 might suit you better personally .

I have never looked at this cameras before. I'll check them out one of this days. It would be very very hard for me at this point if i left Fuji. I really really like the color output. We'll see.

If the A6000 had better lenses and more direct control id look too. It's a good value.

Before making any rash decisions perhaps try the all auto mode with Kit lens and let the camera do what it does, and analyze what settings it chooses. Also tr the film and shadow settings on the same scene and see how close you can get.

I'll try that, but then again what's the point if the photo comes out very dull with no color

There is always colour unless you are in B&W, Exposure is everything, Remember the P&S Sony is basically doing post processing in camera. It;s the happy meal of cameras win win right?

I encourage you to ask your friend for the Pics from the Sony and look at them on a larger screen, perhaps there is more to this tale? You may find the colour too vivid? Put the sony in another scenario and perhaps the opposite will be true?

Trust me based on the one shot of the people it looks not like my typical auto or properly exposed shot give it more practice,

Oh and try testing the film and DR modes on a overcast day or after a rain. A bright sunny day at the beach makes it difficult t judge on the EVF and screen.

I hope this helps

It sure does Roger, thank you very much. Very good constructive input.

No problem at all I only aim to help as that is what this forum to me is for mostly.

Cheers

Roger

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MrChristopher
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Re: Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot
In reply to mistermejia, 6 months ago

Mister mejia over time you have posted several images with the same challenges - bright background that is exposed well with an underexposed subject. In each case you were at an event of some sorts and did the best you could under the circumstances but ended up displeased with the results.

I don't know where you live but I assume you have sunny days often. You might get a friend and spend an afternoon doing shots under the same circumstances and work it until you have everything dialed in. Take your time finding a suitable range of settings that produce the results you desire.

Then the next time you're at one of these sunny events you'll get things dialed in quicker or maybe in the first shot.

Just a suggestion.
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mistermejia
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Re: Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot
In reply to MrChristopher, 6 months ago

MrChristopher wrote:

Mister mejia over time you have posted several images with the same challenges - bright background that is exposed well with an underexposed subject. In each case you were at an event of some sorts and did the best you could under the circumstances but ended up displeased with the results.

hahaha, yes indeed, but this time i shot it in RAW as well, and got a very recoverable photo

I don't know where you live but I assume you have sunny days often. You might get a friend and spend an afternoon doing shots under the same circumstances and work it until you have everything dialed in. Take your time finding a suitable range of settings that produce the results you desire.

Yes thank you, i will continue to practice. The point of all of this is not that (I can't) get it exposed better, but more about how the hundred dollar one does it better and way easier

Then the next time you're at one of these sunny events you'll get things dialed in quicker or maybe in the first shot.

Definitely!  And that way i can send it via Facebook right away  

Just a suggestion.

Thank you, i appreciate your suggestion.

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Chad Hardy
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Re: Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot
In reply to mistermejia, 6 months ago

mistermejia wrote:

Jit L wrote:

Hi mistermejia, which metering mode did you use? I had similar issues in the past with my X-E1 and I found adjusting the metering mode helps plus the AF box as well.

Multi, i guess what the nikon would call it matrix. I tried all three different metering settings. For that situation spot gave me the best to boost the subject in front, but i would have to sacrifice the beautiful background because it would have blown the highlights as always.

What some people here don't understand is that i DID tried shooting that scene in different ways, in manual, A, S, I tried all dynamic ranges and ISO, and yes, that first photo was shot in full AUTO. Like i said, i CAN expose the subject with the camera, i am not stupid, but i would have to sacrifice the background. That's why i re-shot that portrait in RAW to fix it later, since i did not have my SB600 with me. And the pop up flash of the XE1 i find it very weak for those situations indeed.

It is very funny to me when someone jumps right away to insult you without knowing anything about you or not knowing what else you tried already. The usual comment: "I'm sorry but my advice is for you to learn the camera, you shot it wrong, the camera was in AUTO, you needed a ND filter bla bla bla"...

Personally I think there are situations where P&S works better than the Fuji and I use my Canon S100 or iPhone 5 for those. But when I really want to bring out those colors, sharpness, beautiful bokeh from the old manual lenses I turn to Fuji. Probably not the answer you were looking for, just my personal view. Good luck!

I agree. some point and shoot do some things better. I think that better performance or functions of the point and shoot should also be included in the more expensive bodies as well. Isn't that what we are paying for after all, to take easier and faster good looking photos?

I don't have a problem in shooting raw and fixing later, but i do have lots of family in different parts of the world, and i wanted to post THAT photo in facebook right there at that moment, not three days later

Just a few pieces of information that will hopefully help with future posts.

1.  Don't title your post with something that could be inflammatory.  It just won't go well.  I certainly don't mind, but have seen this by itself set people off on the wrong path.  You are instantly seen as insulting and any hint of inexperience in your post will call out the hounds  Maybe something like "Questions about X-E1 exposures on beach" would be better.  Using the word "Bragging" always starts off with a negative tone in the written word.  Sometimes it is so hard to convey in text.  I am sure if we were talking about this at a camera conference it would all go much much better!

2.  If you don't tell everyone what you tried, we won't know where to start.  You are claiming posters are jumping to conclusions, yet you failed to tell us what you tried.  Please try to be more specific if you can.

If you want that picture posted right then, I would consider a phone.  It is just so easy and you won't loose yourself in the moment and miss it due to camera issues.  I really think a point and shoot would serve you better.

Take the X-E1 out when you are alone and want to do some general street/travel shooting, or maybe some beach sunsets.  You can play around with it on your own and have a ball.  Hope this helps, it must have been a frustrating situation to be in on the beach!

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Chad Hardy
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Re: Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot
In reply to Conrad567, 6 months ago

Conrad567 wrote:

Fill flash, his friends camera was set to fire the flash either in backlit situations or just set to fire all the time.

That works as well!  Probably all the time those damn annoying P&S

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kwa_photo
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Re: Automatic tone curve optimization
In reply to John Rausch, 6 months ago

John Rausch wrote:

My Sony RX1 Has DRO, multi-frame noise reduction and a few other "tricks" that produce fairly incredible results. In many cases it is not a matter of getting the exposure just right, it is doing things in camera that could take a person with a lot of skill and time in Photoshop to replicate, like taking six frames and merging them in situations like the beach shot by OP. I don't usually use the various magic settings, but for some situations they really do the job.

It's not a "low cost" camera!

My main camera is an X-E2 and I have an X-M1 infrared, so not a Sony fanboy, in fact quite the opposite except for two cameras, the RX1 and the RX100 - all three versions.

Yes John. You are correct, there is a lot of Sony processing in the background going on. Like you, I am not a Sony fanboy but I now have two of them to match my most loved Fuji's. I've been using an X100 since Nov 2011 and now and X100s. Also an X-E1 for the time being as it's collecting quite a lot of dust as are most of my lenses...I've always been in love with the X100/s and it's my main camera.

The leaf shutter on the X100s, like those Sony's make a world of difference in certain situations, especially with fill flash in bright sunlight like the OP was in. I know that the X100s would have handled it well with the DR400 set and some fill flash.

I too, have been impressed with the processing (not necessarily the jpg compared to Fuji's) of Sony with RX10 and RX100. The mulit-frame NR works pretty well too. Similar, in a way, to the old Fuji EXR where half the pixel exposed on way and the rest another. Except the Sony does it with the full sensor and with the leaf shutter fires off, essentially, bracketing but merges them in camera seamlessly and it usually doesn't look like a bad HDR either.

The other posters are right about the p&s's. The RX100 line, with the somewhat larger sensor, really gives other cameras a run for their money in good light and blows away other p&s's by a mile....for now. Even the low end p&s's are packed full of technology that really makes it easy to get a decent exposure. My 3 year old has done well with my old LX5. That says something. She just points and clicks.

With ALL that said, the X-E1 can still blow away ANY p&s camera if used correctly. No question.

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Ollie 2
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Re: Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot
In reply to mistermejia, 6 months ago

Dear God. Yet another thread where your own inexperience is overlooked in favour of blaming the gear??

Seriously?

Now I’m starting to think you’re just trolling.

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britcam
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Re: Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot
In reply to mistermejia, 6 months ago

I realise this thread has received a great many solid pieces of advise including the use of flash, but that doesn't deal with the basic problem you gave yourself of shooting shadowed subjects against a bright background...

By using an alternative location, and using reflected light off a wall or some such place, you would have easily had a picture that would have blown that cheap P & S into the dust .. Or keep a hand held reflector in the car for someone to hold - again, a cheap and simple solution.

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jkjond
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Incorrect
In reply to photoreddi, 6 months ago

photoreddi wrote:

Acrill wrote:

photoreddi wrote:

Acrill wrote:

You need to use a filter then. Like I said, you are using the camera incorrectly.

Wake up Acrill. I didn't use the camera, the OP did. You are also wrong to suggest that a filter should be used. It wouldn't help at all even if it's an ND filter. If you think about it you might understand why.

Sorry, a bit sleepy here.

A filter would allow the OP to use a more normal aperture. It is only one solution to the problem.

Yes, it would. The problem is that an ND filter would also reduce whatever light the flash emits by the same amount. So if you used a 3 stop ND filter (allowing f/16 to change to f/5.6, a 3 stop aperture increase), you would have to increase the flash's power by the same 3 stop's worth (8 times the output power) because the light that the flash emits is also reduced the same amount by the ND filter.

there is something amiss here, and misleading.

If the foreground is underexposed by 3 stops you have three options to balance the exposure:

+3 stops of flash to balance the shot

+3 stops by opening the aperture, no flash and blow the background.

+3 stops of aperture, -3 stops from filter, + 3 stops of flash

Yes the filter is reducing the amount of flash reaching the sensor, but the increased aperture is cancelling that effect. Although the flash is illuminating the background it has a diminishing effect on the distance. You could juggle with the aperture, shutter speed, iso and flash output to get the exact balance required if the background were closer - so long as there was some separation.

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TacticDesigns
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Point-and-shoot shutter - flash sync speed
In reply to photoreddi, 6 months ago

photoreddi wrote:

Most of the small compact cameras (such as the one mentioned in the OP) probably have no mechanical shutter and just use the electronic shutter that's built into their sensor. My Fuji F600EXR is one of those and it can use its built-in flash up to its highest shutter speeds.

Some old DSLRs like Nikon's D50 and D70 used both, a focal plane mechanical shutter and their sensor's electronic shutter for faster flash synch, up to 1/500th sec.

Or some compact cameras may actually use their aperture as the shutter.

Someone gave me a dead Sony T1. Sensor went bad, but it was so old it didn't make sense to fix it . . . so I disassembled it to see how it worked . . .

When I got to the aperture, it was just 2 pieces of metal, but with cut-outs so that depending on how you positioned them, you could get different sized apertures. And it would completely close as well, so I assume that that acted as the shutter as well. Sort of like a leaf shutter.

A simple, elegant design. Nice!

The Pentax Q has the shutter built into some of its lenses. So higher flash-sync speed with the built-in flash.

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TacticDesigns
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Point-and-shoot flash sync speed 1/750 sec.
In reply to photoreddi, 6 months ago

photoreddi wrote:

BillyInya wrote:

Establish a level playing field ....

Put the X-E1 in "A" then watch the magic unfold. The chances are if the point and shoot cam is correctly determining the right exposure then the X-E1 will also.

Nope. The X-E1 was limited by its flash sync speed, so the relatively slow shutter speed (1/250th) resulted in f/18 for the aperture to keep the background decently exposed. The built-in flash wasn't powerful enough to overcome the tiny aperture. Cheap P&S cameras that have electronic shutters can use much faster shutter speeds such as 1/2000th, 1/4000th, etc. allowing much wider apertures that more fully utilize what the tiny flashes are able to pump out, meager as it is.

On dSLR cameras . . . to get around this, you can get an external flash with a high-speed sync flash mode.

But for vacations . . . if you want to keep size down, this is one advantage that fixed lens point-and-shoot cameras may have. One of the reasons I like point-and-shoot cameras on vacation.

Here's a goofy shot I did shooting my daughter playing with chalk with the sun directly behind her with a point-and-shoot camera. A tough situation. But I just forced flash on with the point-and-shoot and let the camera work out all the details.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tacticdesigns/7471967890/

I know . . . It's not a great shot. Just testing out the Fuji XP50 when I first got it. But it shows the high-speed flash sync possibility. There is still some blue in the sky . . . 

If you look at the EXIF data . . . the camera is flash syncing at 1/750 sec and not even breaking a sweat. LOL.

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a l b e r t
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Re: Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot
In reply to photoreddi, 6 months ago

Basically, the OP is up against the hw limitation of his camera that lacks HSS flash.

Even if you have a Nikon/Canon DSLR, the result would be the same without a flash that supports HSS.

The best bet is probably a 3-stop ND filter, with +2EV on the exposure compensation dial (assuming he is using matrix metering) and put the camera in DR400.  The ND filter is needed to enable the camera to use DR400, as ISO is now 800.  Let the camera decide on the aperture and shutter speed.

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