Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot

Started 4 months ago | Discussions
Acrill
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Re: Here is the photo.
In reply to mistermejia, 4 months ago

mistermejia wrote:

Other than these little annoying things, including the AF in low light, i LOVE the color output out of the XE1.

Sorry to say this, but based on the exif data you are not using the camera correctly.

In your first photo, for instance, the camera cannot properly expose the scene with an Aperture of f/18 and an ISO of 200. It is simply not possible

I strongly suggest that when purchasing an expensive camera you invest in knowledge/courses/tutorials to help you get the most out of the camera. You will be happier with your photos and happier with your purchase if you do this.

There is a book called 'Mastering the Fuji XE-1' you could read. Also, you might try some popular books like 'understanding Exposure' by Bryan Peterson.

The Fuji series do lack many of the auto modes found on other camera brands. This is a deliberate decision by Fuji to appeal to the enthusiast segment of photographers.

Good luck!

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BillyInya
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Re: Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot
In reply to mistermejia, 4 months ago

Establish a level playing field ....

Put the X-E1 in "A" then watch the magic unfold. The chances are if the point and shoot cam is correctly determining the right exposure then the X-E1 will also.

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britcam
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Re: Here is the photo.
In reply to Acrill, 4 months ago

mistermejia wrote:

Other than these little annoying things, including the AF in low light, i LOVE the color output out of the XE1.

Sorry to say this, but based on the exif data you are not using the camera correctly.

In your first photo, for instance, the camera cannot properly expose the scene with an Aperture of f/18 and an ISO of 200. It is simply not possible

I strongly suggest that when purchasing an expensive camera you invest in knowledge/courses/tutorials to help you get the most out of the camera. You will be happier with your photos and happier with your purchase if you do this.

There is a book called 'Mastering the Fuji XE-1' you could read. Also, you might try some popular books like 'understanding Exposure' by Bryan Peterson.

The Fuji series do lack many of the auto modes found on other camera brands. This is a deliberate decision by Fuji to appeal to the enthusiast segment of photographers.

Good luck!

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slimandy
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Re: Here is the photo.
In reply to Acrill, 4 months ago

Acrill wrote:

In your first photo, for instance, the camera cannot properly expose the scene with an Aperture of f/18 and an ISO of 200. It is simply not possible

and if it could he won't get great results @ f18 anyway.

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photoreddi
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Re: Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot
In reply to BillyInya, 4 months ago

BillyInya wrote:

Establish a level playing field ....

Put the X-E1 in "A" then watch the magic unfold. The chances are if the point and shoot cam is correctly determining the right exposure then the X-E1 will also.

Nope. The X-E1 was limited by its flash sync speed, so the relatively slow shutter speed (1/250th) resulted in f/18 for the aperture to keep the background decently exposed. The built-in flash wasn't powerful enough to overcome the tiny aperture. Cheap P&S cameras that have electronic shutters can use much faster shutter speeds such as 1/2000th, 1/4000th, etc. allowing much wider apertures that more fully utilize what the tiny flashes are able to pump out, meager as it is.

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photoreddi
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Re: Here is the photo.
In reply to Acrill, 4 months ago

Acrill wrote:

mistermejia wrote:

Other than these little annoying things, including the AF in low light, i LOVE the color output out of the XE1.

Sorry to say this, but based on the exif data you are not using the camera correctly.

In your first photo, for instance, the camera cannot properly expose the scene with an Aperture of f/18 and an ISO of 200. It is simply not possible

Not really. As I mentioned in my reply below, the X-E1 couldn't really use a smaller aperture because if it used its built-in flash the shutter speed was limited to 1/250th sec. (more or less) but then the aperture had to be extremely small to prevent blowing out the background. That's the problem with shutters that require slow flash sync speeds. P&S cameras (and Fuji's X100/X100s) can use their flashes with much shorter/faster shutter speeds which in turn allows the use of more reasonable wider apertures.

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Acrill
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Re: Here is the photo.
In reply to photoreddi, 4 months ago

You need to use a filter then. Like I said, you are using the camera incorrectly.

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Jit L
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Re: Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot
In reply to mistermejia, 4 months ago

Hi mistermejia, which metering mode did you use? I had similar issues in the past with my X-E1 and I found adjusting the metering mode helps plus the AF box as well.

Personally I think there are situations where P&S works better than the Fuji and I use my Canon S100 or iPhone 5 for those. But when I really want to bring out those colors, sharpness, beautiful bokeh from the old manual lenses I turn to Fuji. Probably not the answer you were looking for, just my personal view. Good luck!

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photoreddi
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Wrong.
In reply to Acrill, 4 months ago

Acrill wrote:

You need to use a filter then. Like I said, you are using the camera incorrectly.

Wake up Acrill. I didn't use the camera, the OP did. You are also wrong to suggest that a filter should be used. It wouldn't help at all even if it's an ND filter. If you think about it you might understand why.

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Acrill
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Re: Wrong.
In reply to photoreddi, 4 months ago

photoreddi wrote:

Acrill wrote:

You need to use a filter then. Like I said, you are using the camera incorrectly.

Wake up Acrill. I didn't use the camera, the OP did. You are also wrong to suggest that a filter should be used. It wouldn't help at all even if it's an ND filter. If you think about it you might understand why.

Sorry, a bit sleepy here.

A filter would allow the OP to use a more normal aperture. It is only one solution to the problem.

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Acrill
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Re: Wrong.
In reply to Acrill, 4 months ago

Also, it doesn't look like the flash even fired for that first picture at f/18.

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photoreddi
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Re: Wrong.
In reply to Acrill, 4 months ago

Acrill wrote:

photoreddi wrote:

Acrill wrote:

You need to use a filter then. Like I said, you are using the camera incorrectly.

Wake up Acrill. I didn't use the camera, the OP did. You are also wrong to suggest that a filter should be used. It wouldn't help at all even if it's an ND filter. If you think about it you might understand why.

Sorry, a bit sleepy here.

A filter would allow the OP to use a more normal aperture. It is only one solution to the problem.

Yes, it would. The problem is that an ND filter would also reduce whatever light the flash emits by the same amount. So if you used a 3 stop ND filter (allowing f/16 to change to f/5.6, a 3 stop aperture increase), you would have to increase the flash's power by the same 3 stop's worth (8 times the output power) because the light that the flash emits is also reduced the same amount by the ND filter.

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Chad Hardy
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Re: Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot
In reply to Sonyshine, 4 months ago

Sonyshine wrote:

The more complex and capable the camera the more you have to learn to use it....

That applies to me as much as you!

I agree here, there are a few parameters in the EXIF as mentioned that show some opportunities for improvement. These cameras aren't designed for Auto mode like a point and shoot.

If it were me on the beach the first thing I would do is sit down and start taking pictures of other people.  Is the camera metering correctly in the bright scenario?  Probably not.  I would go to spot metering and AEL lock my meter on their skin tones.  Then you end up with a blown out background.  I would probably shoot bracketed shots +/-1 Ev to be safe and deal with them in post. I would go Av mode probably f8 in the bright sun, ISO should be bottomed out at 200.  Hopefully 1/4000th shutter would be enough to expose properly.  If not, I would pull a 2-3 stop ND filter from my small bag and shoot with it from there.

With the point and shoot, it is probably taking bracketed shots anyway and combining them in camera.

Here is what I have come to:

I take the X-T1 for serious stuff, landscapes, street where I need reach or fast reaction, studio portraits driving flash with triggers/softboxes etc.  When I am alone I take this camera.

When I am out with the family, I take my RX100.  It takes great shots, is pretty fast and has a great set of Auto/scene modes if I get lazy.  What I have learned is that when you go out with family (at least mine)  they don't want a photographer with them.  They do want to capture the memories, but they don't want me trying to make art lol.  They want me engaged in what is going on, not concentrating on my gear or special photos.

Hope this helps, it is a long journey and I feel like I am still at the bottom of the hill!

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4tunate son
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Re: Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot
In reply to BillyInya, 4 months ago

BillyInya wrote:

Establish a level playing field ....

Put the X-E1 in "A" then watch the magic unfold. The chances are if the point and shoot cam is correctly determining the right exposure then the X-E1 will also.

According to the EXIF data, the camera was in auto mode.

Acrill wrote:

Sorry to say this, but based on the exif data you are not using the camera correctly.

In your first photo, for instance, the camera cannot properly expose the scene with an Aperture of f/18 and an ISO of 200. It is simply not possible

The OP did not select f/18; the camera did.

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mr moonlight
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Re: Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot
In reply to mistermejia, 4 months ago

Think about your "expensive" mirrorless as you would a Ferrari. Yes, it looks great, but if you don't know how to drive it, you'll end up looking like a fool. A good P&S is like a luxury sedan. Easy to drive, everyone is comfortable, and you never have to worry about speed bumps. If you're going to buy a Ferrari, it's best to learn how, when, and where to drive it. Same thing with your XE1.

With just the camera a few simple tricks would have allowed you to milk out a much better image. Your settings were just fine. Your were limited by your flash sync speed, so ISO200, f18, 1/250 will get the job done. Your flash wasn't giving you enough fill, so take a step or two closer and take a wider shot. The closer you are, the more powerful your flash becomes.

You can also change your positioning. The light is coming a bit from behind but also from right. So instead of having your subjects backlit and facing you dead on with the ocean in the background, have them face more towards the sun. You come up to the rail and frame your shot with your subjects on the right and the beach going off into the distance on the left. Use your flash for a little fill and you're good to go.

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Conrad567
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Re: Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot
In reply to mistermejia, 4 months ago

mistermejia wrote:

Well, i know what a point and shoot can and cannot do, but i will admit i had a pretty embarrassing moment this weekend.

I had my XE1, and, well, my friends always compliment the look of the camera, and they think is very expensive. Two things happened to me this pass weekend. First, my friends and I went to the beach. I was adjusting the XE1 the best i could so that i can get my friends well exposed, with the sun behind them on the background and the water and the blue sky with some white clouds. I have been here before, so I knew what i was getting into, so i was shooting RAW. I was trying all sort of things to have the camera properly set up and i also had the pop up flash on. Well, i thought i was getting "good results".

Then, my friend asked me: "oh please take a photo with my camera". She had a cheap $125 dollar point and shoot Sony. I took the photo and when i checked it on the LCD my jaw drops!!

That same photo with the beach behind everybody, and the sun and water and white clouds was NOT over exposed, but most importantly, my friends were PERFECTLY exposed in the front and i just could not believe it. My wife looked at my XE1 photo and she asked me why my photo was way way darker and why we could barely see everybody in that photo. All i said is that i probably did something wrong. She told me: "the other cheap camera takes better photos than your $1K one". I just shook my head.

Then we go out to dinner in a restaurant, and i am trying to lock focus but i can't, it is not completely dark, but the lights are dimmed enough that the camera cannot lock focus on people's face. All i said was: "sorry guys but my camera is not locking focus", all they said was: "what??".

My question is why can't my XE1 take a better photo in the beach scenario, but the cheap $125 Sony point and shoot can? Something doesn't make sense here.

As to the AF lock for indoor shots, well, i already kind of knew that was going to happen

Just right now as i am writing this i am thinking that maybe the XE1 does have a SCENE mode for the beach situation? I don't have the camera with me right now, but i do remember the X10 does have different in-camera scenes. Can you guys verify this from the top of your head? I will check the manual as well and maybe some of those scene modes give me the output i am looking for certain situations.

If it doesn't, then what i'll have to do is take my external flash ALL THE TIME, which is not very comfortable. Either that, or i might just start looking for a newer body. In the end, i don't just want a great looking camera, but one that works better or at least the same as as my friend's point and shoot

FILL FLASH, your friends cheap camera had the flash set to fire either in backlit conditions or it fires all the time.

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biza43
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Re: Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot
In reply to mistermejia, 4 months ago

The issues alluded to here are easy to understand and to correct for, all basic photo books will provide answers.

If you are shooting people against the light, you can either expose for the background and provide some fill light on the faces (using a flash or reflector, or both); or expose for the shaded faces and watch the background go bright and even overexposed.

Typically, one would choose the first route, and use a flash as fill. But then of course your flash may need to be powerful enough, and your camera needs to be able to do high synch speed flash shooting...

If all of this sounds too complicated, don't sweat, there is a reason why many cameras have a "green" mode on the mode dial, or several scene modes.

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tamras29
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Re: Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot
In reply to biza43, 4 months ago

biza43 wrote:

The issues alluded to here are easy to understand and to correct for, all basic photo books will provide answers.

If you are shooting people against the light, you can either expose for the background and provide some fill light on the faces (using a flash or reflector, or both); or expose for the shaded faces and watch the background go bright and even overexposed.

Typically, one would choose the first route, and use a flash as fill. But then of course your flash may need to be powerful enough, and your camera needs to be able to do high synch speed flash shooting...

If all of this sounds too complicated, don't sweat, there is a reason why many cameras have a "green" mode on the mode dial, or several scene modes.

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If camera meters ISO 200 f8 at 1/500 second, what will the shutter speed be at f4  to keep the exposure the same?

Unless the budding photographer with deep pocket can answer this one without the help of Google - this for who point and shoots are made for.  I teach photography to beginners, and the first thing I insist on out in the field is take your camera out of "green box" mode and into manual and see what happens when you press the shutter. There is of course always a look of shear terror on the faces at first, but they almost always get there in the end.

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photoreddi
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Very good advice.
In reply to mr moonlight, 4 months ago

mr moonlight wrote:

Think about your "expensive" mirrorless as you would a Ferrari. Yes, it looks great, but if you don't know how to drive it, you'll end up looking like a fool. A good P&S is like a luxury sedan. Easy to drive, everyone is comfortable, and you never have to worry about speed bumps. If you're going to buy a Ferrari, it's best to learn how, when, and where to drive it. Same thing with your XE1.

With just the camera a few simple tricks would have allowed you to milk out a much better image. Your settings were just fine. Your were limited by your flash sync speed, so ISO200, f18, 1/250 will get the job done. Your flash wasn't giving you enough fill, so take a step or two closer and take a wider shot. The closer you are, the more powerful your flash becomes.

You can also change your positioning. The light is coming a bit from behind but also from right. So instead of having your subjects backlit and facing you dead on with the ocean in the background, have them face more towards the sun. You come up to the rail and frame your shot with your subjects on the right and the beach going off into the distance on the left. Use your flash for a little fill and you're good to go.

Actually, it's excellent advice. The OP (and most people) aren't likely to learn things like this if they're casual shooters even if they shoot for years. They need to pick and choose which threads they read. Contentious, argumentative threads may be more entertaining for some, but they're more like food fights and little is learned from them, especially if you can't tell who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't.

Not referring to you, read good books on different photo topics. Experience helps, but what helps even more is shooting more than is necessary. Not all shots need to count, so practice and test photos and observation is a strong catalyst for experience. If books and web articles aren't very appealing (some people are more visually oriented) video instruction is either free (youtube) or can be very low cost. Once you're beyond the basics, more expensive workshops can improve your photos more than even much more expensive cameras and lenses can. Proficiency with photo editors can also greatly improve your photos. Many of the great film photographers had either favorite labs to do their film processing and to produce their prints, which was yesteryears version of Photoshop. Some had decades long professional relationships with highly skilled personal printers. That would be way out of budget for most people. Anyone can afford to use a good photo editor, but that also takes some effort and experience to become proficient enough to see big improvements.

It's like most other things. If you want to be a good golfer, a really nice, expensive set of clubs isn't enough. It takes practice, lessons, and maybe some books and videos to become a reasonably good golfer. If you don't really care about significantly improving your score but enjoy the game, enjoying the occasional great shot, that's more like using an inexpensive camera that's designed to produce decent (but not optimal) photos most of the time.

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mistermejia
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Re: Bragging about our expensive mirrorless/DSLR vs a point and shoot
In reply to Jit L, 4 months ago

Jit L wrote:

Hi mistermejia, which metering mode did you use? I had similar issues in the past with my X-E1 and I found adjusting the metering mode helps plus the AF box as well.

Multi, i guess what the nikon would call it matrix.  I tried all three different metering settings.  For that situation spot gave me the best to boost the subject in front, but i would have to sacrifice the beautiful background because it would have blown the highlights as always.

What some people here don't understand is that i DID tried shooting that scene in different ways, in manual, A, S, I tried all dynamic ranges and ISO, and yes, that first photo was shot in full AUTO. Like i said, i CAN expose the subject with the camera, i am not stupid, but i would have to sacrifice the background.  That's why i re-shot that portrait in RAW to fix it later, since i did not have my SB600 with me.  And the pop up flash of the XE1 i find it very weak for those situations indeed.

It is very funny to me when someone jumps right away to insult you without knowing anything about you or not knowing what else you tried already.  The usual comment:  "I'm sorry but my advice is for you to learn the camera, you shot it wrong, the camera was in AUTO, you needed a ND filter bla bla bla"...

Personally I think there are situations where P&S works better than the Fuji and I use my Canon S100 or iPhone 5 for those. But when I really want to bring out those colors, sharpness, beautiful bokeh from the old manual lenses I turn to Fuji. Probably not the answer you were looking for, just my personal view. Good luck!

I agree.  some point and shoot do some things better.  I think that better performance or functions of the point and shoot should also be included in the more expensive bodies as well. Isn't that what we are paying for after all, to take easier and faster good looking photos?

I don't have a problem in shooting raw and fixing later, but i do have lots of family in different parts of the world, and i wanted to post THAT photo in facebook right there at that moment, not three days later

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