Lets see your 58mm samples, was it worth it?

Started 4 months ago | Discussions
TQGroup
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Re: Lets see your 58mm samples, was it worth it?
In reply to RajahX, 4 months ago

RajahX wrote:

I was debating between the 58 f/1.4g and the 85 f/1.4g. Spent about 15 mins shooting with both lenses at the store. I tried to setup shots where i could evaluate bokeh and how the oof areas looked. I also tried to ensure that i was shooting similar images with both lenses. The 58 may have been a hair better ... but i am not sure i see what all the rave reviews are all about. Ended up going with the 85 as I felt it was a more appropriate focal length for what i wanted to do. If the 58 was better, i would have gone for it.

You have made an excellent choice... for yourself.

IMHO, neither lens is "better" than the other per se, but one may be better than the other for your needs; perceived or actual.

I have shot with both but own the 58 and the 85 F1.8G ... maybe my needs are different to yours?

Please, lets all stop claiming one XYZ is "better" than another PQR.

Then, maybe, we can get to better understand the finer points of what makes one "similar" product different to another "alternative". Who knows, we might even get certain lens testing sites to "grow up" and act a little more professionally... maybe??

Until then,vive la difference!

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alabaster
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Re: Lets see your 58mm samples, was it worth it?
In reply to Bo Photo, 4 months ago

Bo Photo wrote:


Bo--

All SUPERB.

Geoff B
http://www.gbphoto.com.au/

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alabaster
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Re: Lets see your 58mm samples, was it worth it?
In reply to clarnibass, 4 months ago

clarnibass wrote:

Clearly some people can't see this and think this lens is just a hyped up overpriced profit center for nikon. Just as clearly, these people are not who this lens was designed for, nor should they purchase it. They'd be MUCH happier with something like the sigma art.

Some people can see that but still don't think it's worth it.

Absolutely. I can see that this is a great lens, but I still say it can be manufactured pretty cheaply, and Nikon is screwing us for the image quality because they are suffering low margins elsewhere in their lineup where competition is fierce. There is no competition for this lens. If you want this particular rendering, then only this lens will do it. Ergo, "screw up the price and make some profit where we can".

Can I say it again, the images shown above are magnificent (mostly) - If only more people could access this lens it would be wonderful.

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alabaster
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Re: Lets see your 58mm samples, was it worth it?
In reply to Bo Photo, 4 months ago

Bo Photo wrote:

What a sensational example of near and far OOF bokeh, and a great pose as well. Absolutely first class.

You're making my credit card squeal.

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mfahim27753
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Re: Lets see your 58mm samples, was it worth it?
In reply to Stacey_K, 4 months ago

Thank you for sharing, a really nice example of your photography and the lens.

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TQGroup
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Re: Lets see your 58mm samples, was it worth it?
In reply to alabaster, 4 months ago

alabaster wrote:

clarnibass wrote:

Clearly some people can't see this and think this lens is just a hyped up overpriced profit center for nikon. Just as clearly, these people are not who this lens was designed for, nor should they purchase it. They'd be MUCH happier with something like the sigma art.

Some people can see that but still don't think it's worth it.

Absolutely. I can see that this is a great lens, but I still say it can be manufactured pretty cheaply, and Nikon is screwing us for the image quality because they are suffering low margins elsewhere in their lineup where competition is fierce. There is no competition for this lens. If you want this particular rendering, then only this lens will do it. Ergo, "screw up the price and make some profit where we can".

Geoff, in any product portfolio there are "dogs" and "stars". The motivation for a company like Nikon to make a "controversial" lens that doesn't perform well on MTF charts is primarily profit. Otherwise, the R&D cost and effort would not be sanctioned and we would never have this gem of a lens. Instead, all we would get would be boring "sure and steady" no-risk products... like the ones always championed by internal accountants! 

Having been an early adopter, IMHO, this lens is that good and is worth the money.

Can I say it again, the images shown above are magnificent (mostly) - If only more people could access this lens it would be wonderful.

I would like to access a Porsche 911 and a Ferrari Italia too...

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HSway
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Re: Lets see your 58mm samples, was it worth it?
In reply to Stacey_K, 4 months ago

Stacey_K wrote:

HSway wrote:

What I am getting from my observations is that the focus roll-off touched in the other, now149p, thread is unusually long, gradual and the bokeh quality reminds of some semi-transparent mist slowly thickening up that produces minimum to no imperfections during this, for the bokeh, not so easy phase. The tendency is also easy to spot in this example.

This seems to be a standout feature of the lens’ oof rendering; the extended early and continuing transition towards the maximum blur and its specific, very gradual mist-like character during its duration.

Right, it's not as much simply the bokeh in the background, it's the way this lens transitions so smoothly from in focus to OOF. This scene shot with many lenses would show very obviously where the focus ends and the OOF starts. In this shot, it's so smooth you don't really even notice it has happened.The cat shot in this thread shows this too.

Clearly some people can't see this and think this lens is just a hyped up overpriced profit center for nikon. Just as clearly, these people are not who this lens was designed for, nor should they purchase it. They'd be MUCH happier with something like the sigma art.

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Stacey

I don’t want to distract this thread with much of debates which was also a reason I was thinking whether to post at all. Well each of us determines the value of a lens for him/herself. There is not much to discuss with others for analyzing it from all possible angles. That is going separate from the technical debates about the manufacturing cost, marketing, sales strategy etc.

When this stirs heated debates it can be annoying to users, obviously most of them don’t see the subject issues that acute or may even see them as no issues at all.

Doesn’t help that Nikon put itself into a concentrated spot light of a certain kind during the last two years and that isn’t really working for them. It took some efforts and talent to achieve that but they pressed continuously to finely see the "rewards". They should have probably read forums when some said years ago what they now announce as a news (not that I get such act anyway).

Happier with the Sigma. Well you considered it seriously as well. Though you must be happy about how it turned out eventually for you with the 58G. Hard to tell, it sounds like another generalization of another exceptional lens but yea, the cost is less prohibitive and the sales strategy completely different but it also is within completely different context regarding these two companies. Nikon also delivered a very suitable fit (lens) for it (context), in a good sense of this word. What’s also slightly different is that the Sigma’s outlook re the greatness of their products seems generally a lot clearer whereas for Nikon this got a bit murkier. So Nikon has to make sure that the advantage of that context lives on. I am sure, and that is not a polite talk but something more like a felt certainty, that it will and it also is sending signals in that tone. We need genuine products from Nikon, and not only products.

The 50mm Sigma A and the 58G are quite different lenses, some may keep both for that very reason. All I have seen so far suggests that the 58G is a bit more than just a tweaked lens for that close-up objective. If performs as examples and the data suggest over the longer distance ranges with the field flat and high resolution, this combination of deliberately designing opposing characteristics is imo an achievement beyond 'a simple tweak' and is deserving some price tag to reflect that. That will still not make it 'Sigma 50 Art’s marketing', and again these are different levels of production channels, but it puts it a fair bit closer for the reason to accept it. So I won’t be surprised if a great many people saw high value in this lens.

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HSway
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Re: Lets see your 58mm samples, was it worth it?
In reply to TQGroup, 4 months ago

TQGroup wrote:

HSway wrote:

What I am getting from my observations is that the focus roll-off touched in the other, now149p, thread is unusually long, gradual and the bokeh quality reminds of some semi-transparent mist slowly thickening up that produces minimum to no imperfections during this, for the bokeh, not so easy phase. The tendency is also easy to spot in this example.

This seems to be a standout feature of the lens’ oof rendering; the extended early and continuing transition towards the maximum blur and its specific, very gradual mist-like character during its duration. It will be rendered specifically in each scene and will have the effect either reduced or emphasised depending on the geometry and DOF relations. In some case especially, it gives a unique feel to the image. For example this scene shot with 24-70 @58/2.8 would be, I am sure, nicely rendered as well. But the first transition zones would have been more rapid (from the 58’ point of view: underdeveloped) and the rendering would be more prone to the imperfect bokeh interactions in that short zone. At maximum blur the bokeh would be strong from the 24-70, creamy and smooth. There would still be, I reckon, some visible difference to the 58G’ bokeh execution but the type of the difference would be more on the subjective side compared to the mostly tangible difference for the earlier transition zones. The development of the said transitions will be depending on the scene’s character as will be its special characteristic and the overall impression but it definitely seems unique. Whether always 'better', more 3D or whatever is open to the interpretations and assessment as the more compression in that transition space can give its own required, in some instances favoured, powerful effect. Regardless of that the 58G’s growing reputation is also based on the bokeh quality aspect alone (say the typical far background instance) and I think it’s the combination of both properties that makes it a specific lens with often hard-to-copy look valued for its aesthetical virtues.

Another face of the optics is that it’s also predicated for, say, more conventional tasks at longer distances whereas at the beginning it was perceived more like an outsider in that area. Personally 'this addition' we seem to be getting first experience and even data about makes me personally respect the lens more - it makes it much more versatile and useful in my view.

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+ 1

Very well analysed and explained. And the value of this lens to the cognocenti - pricesless!!

Andrew absolutely not difficult to see its value that way for me. glad we agree, btw. Thanks

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alabaster
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Re: Lets see your 58mm samples, was it worth it?
In reply to TQGroup, 4 months ago

TQGroup wrote:

alabaster wrote:

clarnibass wrote:

Clearly some people can't see this and think this lens is just a hyped up overpriced profit center for nikon. Just as clearly, these people are not who this lens was designed for, nor should they purchase it. They'd be MUCH happier with something like the sigma art.

Some people can see that but still don't think it's worth it.

Absolutely. I can see that this is a great lens, but I still say it can be manufactured pretty cheaply, and Nikon is screwing us for the image quality because they are suffering low margins elsewhere in their lineup where competition is fierce. There is no competition for this lens. If you want this particular rendering, then only this lens will do it. Ergo, "screw up the price and make some profit where we can".

Geoff, in any product portfolio there are "dogs" and "stars". The motivation for a company like Nikon to make a "controversial" lens that doesn't perform well on MTF charts is primarily profit. Otherwise, the R&D cost and effort would not be sanctioned and we would never have this gem of a lens. Instead, all we would get would be boring "sure and steady" no-risk products... like the ones always championed by internal accountants!

Having been an early adopter, IMHO, this lens is that good and is worth the money.

Can I say it again, the images shown above are magnificent (mostly) - If only more people could access this lens it would be wonderful.

I would like to access a Porsche 911 and a Ferrari Italia too...

Oh now come on...  Porsche and Ferrari ahve always been high-end luxury products. They have always sold at a price premium. I have bought Nikon over the years because I could always see that the price was associated with tangible engineering content. They have hitherto had a no-nonsense pricing structure. This new lens points to some new philosophy in the marketing department, and it's a move I hope we son't see too much in the future.

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The Name is Bond
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Re: Lets see your 58mm samples, was it worth it?
In reply to Stacey_K, 4 months ago

I now understand why this lens is special. I'm not going to discount my ability to capture the moment here, but I also believe this tool was instrumental in capturing it. I myself questioned the price of this "simple" lens and almost didn't but it, but while I may not understand why it costs what it does, I understand the value of it as part of my kit. I've been shooting with the 50mm f1.8G for a couple of years and never got anything close to this with it.

Sorry to be picky, but underexposed by a couple of stops might have saved the highlights. The D800 has great SNR when downsampled so you may have had the DR for it and still enough resolution to make a biggish print.

For me, part of what makes a great feeling pic is getting the highlights with soft transitions even if there is a white-out core.

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Stacey_K
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Re: Lets see your 58mm samples, was it worth it?
In reply to The Name is Bond, 4 months ago

The Name is Bond wrote:

I now understand why this lens is special. I'm not going to discount my ability to capture the moment here, but I also believe this tool was instrumental in capturing it. I myself questioned the price of this "simple" lens and almost didn't but it, but while I may not understand why it costs what it does, I understand the value of it as part of my kit. I've been shooting with the 50mm f1.8G for a couple of years and never got anything close to this with it.

Sorry to be picky, but underexposed by a couple of stops might have saved the highlights. The D800 has great SNR when downsampled so you may have had the DR for it and still enough resolution to make a biggish print.

For me, part of what makes a great feeling pic is getting the highlights with soft transitions even if there is a white-out core.

I thought the same thing when shooting (blinkie warnings!), I've got a later shot in the sequence with less exposure that mostly saved the highlights, I couldn't get it adjusted where it had the same impact this shot has. When I expanded the DR to "save everything", the midtone contrast ended up being muddy. I also have a shot where is legs aren't "blocked up, it doesn't look as good either.

I personally am OK with blown highlights, there was a light about 6 inches over that paper and stuff on the right (That picture on the right is taped to the hood of the light) so it should be blown

But thanks for your comments.

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Lance B
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Re: Lets see your 58mm samples, was it worth it?
In reply to Stacey_K, 4 months ago

Well, that is a superb image, Stacey! The lighting, the composition, the bokeh, the whole thing is fabulous!

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TQGroup
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Re: Lets see your 58mm samples, was it worth it?
In reply to alabaster, 4 months ago

alabaster wrote:

TQGroup wrote:

alabaster wrote:

clarnibass wrote:

Clearly some people can't see this and think this lens is just a hyped up overpriced profit center for nikon. Just as clearly, these people are not who this lens was designed for, nor should they purchase it. They'd be MUCH happier with something like the sigma art.

Some people can see that but still don't think it's worth it.

Absolutely. I can see that this is a great lens, but I still say it can be manufactured pretty cheaply, and Nikon is screwing us for the image quality because they are suffering low margins elsewhere in their lineup where competition is fierce. There is no competition for this lens. If you want this particular rendering, then only this lens will do it. Ergo, "screw up the price and make some profit where we can".

Geoff, in any product portfolio there are "dogs" and "stars". The motivation for a company like Nikon to make a "controversial" lens that doesn't perform well on MTF charts is primarily profit. Otherwise, the R&D cost and effort would not be sanctioned and we would never have this gem of a lens. Instead, all we would get would be boring "sure and steady" no-risk products... like the ones always championed by internal accountants!

Having been an early adopter, IMHO, this lens is that good and is worth the money.

Can I say it again, the images shown above are magnificent (mostly) - If only more people could access this lens it would be wonderful.

I would like to access a Porsche 911 and a Ferrari Italia too...

Oh now come on... Porsche and Ferrari ahve always been high-end luxury products. They have always sold at a price premium. I have bought Nikon over the years because I could always see that the price was associated with tangible engineering content. They have hitherto had a no-nonsense pricing structure. This new lens points to some new philosophy in the marketing department, and it's a move I hope we son't see too much in the future.

... are you saying that you don't want to see excellent lenses like the 58 in the future?

As for pricing, the 58 F1.4 costs significantly less than the 24 F1.4 and only a little more than the other F1.4s; the 35 and the 85. Given these facts, I cannot see your point about Nikon's "new philosophy"...

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jopezu
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alrighty then!
In reply to Stacey_K, 4 months ago

i only rented it, so yes, it was very much worth it.  

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jopezu
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Re: Lets see your 58mm samples, was it worth it?
In reply to paulski66, 4 months ago

while i agree with your pricing assessment, nexu1's photo is an f/5 shot.  hard to judge bokeh on a ~50mm lens at f/5 (especially on his d5100 crop-sensor).  just curious, what's the highest price you'd pay for it (if you would at all)?  i feel like it would be a hot seller around $900 usd.

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RajahX
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Re: Lets see your 58mm samples, was it worth it?
In reply to jopezu, 4 months ago

jopezu wrote:

while i agree with your pricing assessment, nexu1's photo is an f/5 shot. hard to judge bokeh on a ~50mm lens at f/5 (especially on his d5100 crop-sensor). just curious, what's the highest price you'd pay for it (if you would at all)? i feel like it would be a hot seller around $900 usd.

agreed! if it was $900, i would consider adding this to my set of lenses. I currently shoot with a set of primes (24 f/1.4, 35 f/1.4, 85 f/1.4). I wouldn't mind adding the 58 to cover the hole in the middle, but I don't believe its current price is fair for what it does. 58 is only 8mm away from a stellar group of 50mm from a variety of sources.

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paulski66
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Re: Lets see your 58mm samples, was it worth it?
In reply to jopezu, 4 months ago

jopezu wrote:

while i agree with your pricing assessment, nexu1's photo is an f/5 shot. hard to judge bokeh on a ~50mm lens at f/5 (especially on his d5100 crop-sensor). just curious, what's the highest price you'd pay for it (if you would at all)? i feel like it would be a hot seller around $900 usd.

I would be significantly more intrigued by this lens if it were priced competitively with, say the Sigma 50. As I said in the other thread, refurbs are cropping up in the $1400 range, which is getting closer. But I feel $1700 is too much (for me) for a normal prime.

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coreyh
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Re: Lets see your 58mm samples, was it worth it?
In reply to Stacey_K, 4 months ago

Like all premium lenses, the worth is totally subjective. I was a naysayer of this lens. Coming around to it now after some use.  Bought to compare with the Sigma 50mm which I have not gotten yet.

While the sharpness is definitely lacking compared to the Sigma 35mm I own, it is by no means soft. I have printed a few of my images at F1.4 at 20"x30" and they look great. I have no doubt that one could also print at 24x36" and have it hold to some wall pixel peeping

Still shooting photos of the kids/misc and not using it for paid shoots.  I do that with all of my new purchases to make sure I'm comfortable and know that I can trust the lens.

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Stacey_K
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Re: Lets see your 58mm samples, was it worth it?
In reply to coreyh, 4 months ago

I really like this one. Again, the transition of in focus to out on the first desktop is so smooth.

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Art Jacks
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Re: Lets see your 58mm samples, was it worth it?
In reply to Stacey_K, 4 months ago

Fully agree, this is one of the first photographs taken after getting the lens in February, f1.8 is an operator error but the transition in the background is smooth.

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