OK, this is a camera tec forum!

Started 5 months ago | Discussions
Nordstjernen
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OK, this is a camera tec forum!
5 months ago

Then I wonder why so many just have to blame or bash the camera instead of discussing what can be done with the gear. Camera tec is about how we handle the camera to get the best results, or ... ?

  1. All cameras are mass marked products, engineered to suit a wide range of users
  2. We have to accept that the camera is just like it is - do your homework before buying
  3. You need to learn the camera to know very well to find out what is hot and what is not
  4. If there are issues, why not look for workarounds - then you are fit for fight anytime
  5. If you don't like a camera, why tell/warn others? Why not just buy a camera you like?

Back to the title of this tread. If this is a tec forum, and tec is part of photography, I would expect many more treads about photography, discussing techniques to realize your photographic ideas and projects, instead of discussing how we think a certain camera should be. This reminds me of those listening to music, knowing excactly what is wrong, but they can't sing or play an instrument themselves ...

We already have lots of people being "critical" to the new A77II even before the camera is launched. Not much worth listening to.

From my observation, the best photographers actually don't talk much about how their cameras or lenses, they just learn how to handle the gear and then work within the limitations - and make excellent photographs, knowing that the magics isn't within the camera - is is all about the eye of the photographer!

Working intuitively and spontaniously with the camera takes a lot of training. And when the knowledge is internalised, the camera actually doesn't matter much.

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Corelli
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Re: OK, this is a camera tec forum!
In reply to Nordstjernen, 5 months ago

Spot on!

Cheers,

GM

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Marti58
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So true
In reply to Nordstjernen, 5 months ago

When i made the step from analoog to digital i had to get used to the tool ....... the basics of Photography always have been the same.

sometimes i even shoot analoog in the past 14 years next to my digital tool.

so all you need to do is learning the tool and there you go.

i love all kind of systems/brands for that matter..... i still have my Hassy and Mamiya Medium format cameras.

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Ron Poelman
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So, given all that .....
In reply to Nordstjernen, 5 months ago

why do you post this manifesto on the Sony Alpha forum ?
Would it not be better in the Photographic Science and Technology forum, for example ?
This place is only going to annoy you, being full of people who want to tallk
about cameras in general and (currently) the latest Sony.
You seem to be more worried about the shape of the forum,
or did you have a technique you may wished to share ?

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Nordstjernen
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Re: So, given all that .....
In reply to Ron Poelman, 5 months ago

Ron Poelman wrote:

why do you post this manifesto on the Sony Alpha forum ?

Why not? I am a long term A-mount user.

This place is only going to annoy you, being full of people who want to tallk
about cameras in general and (currently) the latest Sony.

The forum is open for everybody, and that's just fine. But I am a bit surprised that focus is so much on the camera itself, not on the use of the camera - or the photographic results.

or did you have a technique you may wished to share ?

Did so for years, and will continue to post and comment on photograpic technique - and also on issues with cameras.

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William Curtindale
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Re: OK, this is a camera tec forum!
In reply to Nordstjernen, 5 months ago

Nordstjernen wrote:

Then I wonder why so many just have to blame or bash the camera instead of discussing what can be done with the gear. Camera tec is about how we handle the camera to get the best results, or ... ?

  1. All cameras are mass marked products, engineered to suit a wide range of users
  2. We have to accept that the camera is just like it is - do your homework before buying
  3. You need to learn the camera to know very well to find out what is hot and what is not
  4. If there are issues, why not look for workarounds - then you are fit for fight anytime
  5. If you don't like a camera, why tell/warn others? Why not just buy a camera you like?

Back to the title of this tread. If this is a tec forum, and tec is part of photography, I would expect many more treads about photography, discussing techniques to realize your photographic ideas and projects, instead of discussing how we think a certain camera should be. This reminds me of those listening to music, knowing excactly what is wrong, but they can't sing or play an instrument themselves ...

We already have lots of people being "critical" to the new A77II even before the camera is launched. Not much worth listening to.

From my observation, the best photographers actually don't talk much about how their cameras or lenses, they just learn how to handle the gear and then work within the limitations - and make excellent photographs, knowing that the magics isn't within the camera - is is all about the eye of the photographer!

Working intuitively and spontaniously with the camera takes a lot of training. And when the knowledge is internalised, the camera actually doesn't matter much.

+1

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busch
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Amen! (nt)
In reply to Nordstjernen, 5 months ago
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ajff
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Re: OK, this is a camera tec forum!
In reply to Nordstjernen, 5 months ago

Nordstjernen wrote:

Then I wonder why so many just have to blame or bash the camera instead of discussing what can be done with the gear. Camera tec is about how we handle the camera to get the best results, or ... ?

  1. All cameras are mass marked products, engineered to suit a wide range of users
  2. We have to accept that the camera is just like it is - do your homework before buying
  3. You need to learn the camera to know very well to find out what is hot and what is not
  4. If there are issues, why not look for workarounds - then you are fit for fight anytime
  5. If you don't like a camera, why tell/warn others? Why not just buy a camera you like?

Back to the title of this tread. If this is a tec forum, and tec is part of photography, I would expect many more treads about photography, discussing techniques to realize your photographic ideas and projects, instead of discussing how we think a certain camera should be. This reminds me of those listening to music, knowing excactly what is wrong, but they can't sing or play an instrument themselves ...

We already have lots of people being "critical" to the new A77II even before the camera is launched. Not much worth listening to.

From my observation, the best photographers actually don't talk much about how their cameras or lenses, they just learn how to handle the gear and then work within the limitations - and make excellent photographs, knowing that the magics isn't within the camera - is is all about the eye of the photographer!

Working intuitively and spontaniously with the camera takes a lot of training. And when the knowledge is internalised, the camera actually doesn't matter much.

+1

Wel said, as usual!

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Have Fun Taking Pictures!

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RodrigoMiguel
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Re: OK, this is a camera tec forum!
In reply to Nordstjernen, 5 months ago

Nordstjernen wrote:

Then I wonder why so many just have to blame or bash the camera instead of discussing what can be done with the gear. Camera tec is about how we handle the camera to get the best results, or ... ?

  1. All cameras are mass marked products, engineered to suit a wide range of users
  2. We have to accept that the camera is just like it is - do your homework before buying
  3. You need to learn the camera to know very well to find out what is hot and what is not
  4. If there are issues, why not look for workarounds - then you are fit for fight anytime
  5. If you don't like a camera, why tell/warn others? Why not just buy a camera you like?

Back to the title of this tread. If this is a tec forum, and tec is part of photography, I would expect many more treads about photography, discussing techniques to realize your photographic ideas and projects, instead of discussing how we think a certain camera should be. This reminds me of those listening to music, knowing excactly what is wrong, but they can't sing or play an instrument themselves ...

We already have lots of people being "critical" to the new A77II even before the camera is launched. Not much worth listening to.

From my observation, the best photographers actually don't talk much about how their cameras or lenses, they just learn how to handle the gear and then work within the limitations - and make excellent photographs, knowing that the magics isn't within the camera - is is all about the eye of the photographer!

Working intuitively and spontaniously with the camera takes a lot of training. And when the knowledge is internalised, the camera actually doesn't matter much.

Yes, it is. that's why most forums are grouped by brand/type.

The photography forums are for that, photographic technique.

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tbcass
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Re: OK, this is a camera tec forum!
In reply to Nordstjernen, 5 months ago

Not to be offensive but it seems that a lot of people aren't skilled enough to appreciate the finer points of camera design and instead focus on the few things they know.
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Look at the picture, not the pixels
------------
Miss use of the ability to do 100% pixel peeping is the bane of digital photography because it causes people to fret over inconsequential issues.

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digititus
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With exception!
In reply to Nordstjernen, 5 months ago

Nordstjernen wrote:

Then I wonder why so many just have to blame or bash the camera instead of discussing what can be done with the gear. Camera tec is about how we handle the camera to get the best results, or ... ?

  1. All cameras are mass marked products, engineered to suit a wide range of users
  2. We have to accept that the camera is just like it is - do your homework before buying
  3. You need to learn the camera to know very well to find out what is hot and what is not
  4. If there are issues, why not look for workarounds - then you are fit for fight anytime
  5. If you don't like a camera, why tell/warn others? Why not just buy a camera you like?

Well, it will come as no surprise that I take exception to some of your comments. Whether you agree or not, many people come to these forums for the sole purpose of making an informed decision about their intended purchase. In fact, your own words say "do your homework before buying".

How does one do their home work if the only information they can find is the marketing hype in press releases and posts from people who think Sony can do no wrong. And these are the same people who seem to sit at their computers 24 hours/day to counter every criticism.

Furthermore, I think manufacturers pay as much attention to criticisms of their product as they do praise, especially if the criticism is widespread.

Workarounds....well, I can accept that idea to the extent there are model differences and manufacturer differences. Features are left in or out by intent or design. So, you make a choice and "workaround" what is missing. However, when the workaround is for a flaw that is so basic, it becomes inexcusable, that is a different story. The Sony flash system is a perfect example. The worst in the industry, and with the announcement of the A77II there is not a word to suggest they have made any attempt to improve it.

Any finally, your statement #5 borders on being outrageous. Forums are for the purpose of sharing information, not for hiding it!

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kpenner
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Re: OK, this is a camera tec forum!
In reply to Nordstjernen, 5 months ago

Nordstjernen wrote:

Then I wonder why so many just have to blame or bash the camera instead of discussing what can be done with the gear. Camera tec is about how we handle the camera to get the best results, or ... ?

  1. All cameras are mass marked products, engineered to suit a wide range of users
  2. We have to accept that the camera is just like it is - do your homework before buying
  3. You need to learn the camera to know very well to find out what is hot and what is not
  4. If there are issues, why not look for workarounds - then you are fit for fight anytime
  5. If you don't like a camera, why tell/warn others? Why not just buy a camera you like?

Back to the title of this tread. If this is a tec forum, and tec is part of photography, I would expect many more treads about photography, discussing techniques to realize your photographic ideas and projects, instead of discussing how we think a certain camera should be. This reminds me of those listening to music, knowing excactly what is wrong, but they can't sing or play an instrument themselves ...

We already have lots of people being "critical" to the new A77II even before the camera is launched. Not much worth listening to.

From my observation, the best photographers actually don't talk much about how their cameras or lenses, they just learn how to handle the gear and then work within the limitations - and make excellent photographs, knowing that the magics isn't within the camera - is is all about the eye of the photographer!

Working intuitively and spontaniously with the camera takes a lot of training. And when the knowledge is internalised, the camera actually doesn't matter much.

Welcome to the internet.

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jydurocher
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Re: Amen! (nt)
In reply to busch, 5 months ago

Should be Hallelujah

I did my best, it wasn't much
I couldn't feel, so I tried to touch

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Nordstjernen
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Re: With exception!
In reply to digititus, 5 months ago

digititus wrote:

Nordstjernen wrote:

Then I wonder why so many just have to blame or bash the camera instead of discussing what can be done with the gear. Camera tec is about how we handle the camera to get the best results, or ... ?

  1. All cameras are mass marked products, engineered to suit a wide range of users
  2. We have to accept that the camera is just like it is - do your homework before buying
  3. You need to learn the camera to know very well to find out what is hot and what is not
  4. If there are issues, why not look for workarounds - then you are fit for fight anytime
  5. If you don't like a camera, why tell/warn others? Why not just buy a camera you like?

Well, it will come as no surprise that I take exception to some of your comments. Whether you agree or not, many people come to these forums for the sole purpose of making an informed decision about their intended purchase. In fact, your own words say "do your homework before buying".

How does one do their home work if the only information they can find is the marketing hype in press releases and posts from people who think Sony can do no wrong. And these are the same people who seem to sit at their computers 24 hours/day to counter every criticism.

Check out *before* buying - ask on forums like this one to find out if a certain camera should work for you or not. This might be an important part of the homework.

Splitting the photographers in 'whiners' and 'praisers' doesn't change the fact that when you buy a camera, you get a box with some nice features and some limitations, and maybe some flaws too.

Furthermore, I think manufacturers pay as much attention to criticisms of their product as they do praise, especially if the criticism is widespread.

Criticism should be welcome, but then you have to argue well, not just throw out claims.

I think Sony might listen if you really have some well thought out ideas that affects the use of the camera for a reasonable large group of photographers.

Workarounds....well, I can accept that idea to the extent there are model differences and manufacturer differences. Features are left in or out by intent or design. So, you make a choice and "workaround" what is missing. However, when the workaround is for a flaw that is so basic, it becomes inexcusable, that is a different story. The Sony flash system is a perfect example. The worst in the industry, and with the announcement of the A77II there is not a word to suggest they have made any attempt to improve it.

Ok, find a workaround or don't take the picture at all. The camera is like it is, flaws or not.

Any finally, your statement #5 borders on being outrageous. Forums are for the purpose of sharing information, not for hiding it!

If others enjoy a camera that I dislike, why should I try to make them unhappy with it?

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Nordstjernen
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Re: OK, this is a camera tec forum!
In reply to kpenner, 5 months ago

kpenner wrote:

Welcome to the internet.

Oh, sorry! I thought discussions was a part of forums like this one!

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K E Hoffman
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Re: With exception!
In reply to digititus, 5 months ago

digititus wrote:

Nordstjernen wrote:

Then I wonder why so many just have to blame or bash the camera instead of discussing what can be done with the gear. Camera tec is about how we handle the camera to get the best results, or ... ?

  1. All cameras are mass marked products, engineered to suit a wide range of users
  2. We have to accept that the camera is just like it is - do your homework before buying
  3. You need to learn the camera to know very well to find out what is hot and what is not
  4. If there are issues, why not look for workarounds - then you are fit for fight anytime
  5. If you don't like a camera, why tell/warn others? Why not just buy a camera you like?

Well, it will come as no surprise that I take exception to some of your comments. Whether you agree or not, many people come to these forums for the sole purpose of making an informed decision about their intended purchase. In fact, your own words say "do your homework before buying".

How does one do their home work if the only information they can find is the marketing hype in press releases and posts from people who think Sony can do no wrong. And these are the same people who seem to sit at their computers 24 hours/day to counter every criticism.

Furthermore, I think manufacturers pay as much attention to criticisms of their product as they do praise, especially if the criticism is widespread.

Workarounds....well, I can accept that idea to the extent there are model differences and manufacturer differences. Features are left in or out by intent or design. So, you make a choice and "workaround" what is missing. However, when the workaround is for a flaw that is so basic, it becomes inexcusable, that is a different story. The Sony flash system is a perfect example. The worst in the industry, and with the announcement of the A77II there is not a word to suggest they have made any attempt to improve it.

Any finally, your statement #5 borders on being outrageous. Forums are for the purpose of sharing information, not for hiding it!

What I agree is needed is:

  • Well thought out concerns and ideas:
  • Totally agree.. the site should not be Sugar and Unicorns.

What I think the forum needs less of

  • Self appointed spokes persons who speak for "All Buyers", "All Professional / Real / Serious Photographers"
  • self appointed life coaches and life-style critics who will tell people why other people post stuff and what is going on in their life (I note that they rarely guess "Wife going through cancer treatments so he spends more time at home and on PC)

Example:

Positive Feedback and Critique "I will (really miss| am made about ) the GPS, because I use it this way. " Bonus would be "Does anyone have an idea how to work around this loss?"

Much less useful feedback : "I hate Sony because they take away a useful feature like GPS everyone can use and give us NFC and Wifi no real photographer needs"

Useful feedback: " I need / hope Sony will get us a new FF with 12 | 36 MP because I like to shoot (Etchings | Night Fishing)"

Much less usful feedback "Sony doesn't care about real photographers they only make toy cameras and I want a FF camera for real work and they have released nothing for me in over a year (of course ignoring advanced lens releases etc)

Useful feed back "Ken.. I get your point, but disagree.. we don't need to go this back and forth anymore. OK?"

Much less useful feedback "Tired of your Fanboy attitude and pretty sure you're paid by Sony and not what you say you are. Get a life"

Trust me I am more than willing to take my own coaching.. I need to be really careful to respect the "I don't like because" and not treat them the same as the "This is a useless _____ No one really needs" posts

And I need to watch taking out my life stress here..

But really when someone posts a positive view of the camera, the clearly makes no claims about amazing IQ .... Is there value in the types of brainless personal attacks some think are needed to dampen too much positive opinions"

Some I think hide behind the idea of anything good is marketing hype and anything negative even personal attacks is just balance, As an excuse to just be rude.

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tbcass
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Re: With exception!
In reply to digititus, 5 months ago

I honestly think that this forum is an unreliable place for info on what to buy. The reason I say that is the good advice often is crowded out by fanboys, trolls, disgruntled users and misinformation. It's hard to separate the good from the bad.
--
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Look at the picture, not the pixels
------------
Miss use of the ability to do 100% pixel peeping is the bane of digital photography because it causes people to fret over inconsequential issues.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/63683676@N07/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25301400@N00/

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quezra
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Re: OK, this is a camera tec forum!
In reply to Nordstjernen, 5 months ago

Well said. Basically camera tech has reached a certain tipping point that leads to this hand-holding do-everything-for-me mentality. When cameras were all manual, technology came along and everyone recognised its limitations but also saw the potential for it to assist in solving common problems for photographers. So most photographers had a 'can-do' attitude and technology was accepted where it could help out but wasn't expected to be a panacea.

At a certain point in time, however, technology became so good it could actually replace some essential skills of photographers. From days when you had to be the judge of exposure and everyone was a M shooter by default, metering tech meant it could make a judgement for you and got good enough till professional photographers didn't all have to be M shooters. This lowered the barriers of entry, which is a good thing, but that also brought in those who could not have shot without some necessary crutches. And so this population of photographers grew in size till they became the majority, and for them technology that couldn't their solve problems was inadequate and so manufacturers had to get even better at it, essentially for competitive reasons.

The third stage is when technology could replace literally every step of the process, not just a few specific crutches. This is when the barriers to entry really fell and all and sundry could now claim to a photographer. And this crowd included the fanboys and the forum warriors who did not know the first thing about photography from the cameras they were shooting with, but sure as heck could read a spec sheet and compare that to someone else's.

Thus, DPR today.

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GingerSix
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Re: OK, this is a camera tec forum!
In reply to Nordstjernen, 5 months ago

"Welcome to the Sony Alpha SLR/SLT A-mount Talk Forum, the place to discuss Sony A-mount Alpha Digital SLRs and SLT models."

Any topic related to SONY A-mount is legit.

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William Curtindale
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quezra: OK, this is a camera tec forum!
In reply to quezra, 5 months ago

quezra wrote:

Well said. Basically camera tech has reached a certain tipping point that leads to this hand-holding do-everything-for-me mentality. When cameras were all manual, technology came along and everyone recognised its limitations but also saw the potential for it to assist in solving common problems for photographers. So most photographers had a 'can-do' attitude and technology was accepted where it could help out but wasn't expected to be a panacea.

At a certain point in time, however, technology became so good it could actually replace some essential skills of photographers. From days when you had to be the judge of exposure and everyone was a M shooter by default, metering tech meant it could make a judgement for you and got good enough till professional photographers didn't all have to be M shooters. This lowered the barriers of entry, which is a good thing, but that also brought in those who could not have shot without some necessary crutches. And so this population of photographers grew in size till they became the majority, and for them technology that couldn't their solve problems was inadequate and so manufacturers had to get even better at it, essentially for competitive reasons.

The third stage is when technology could replace literally every step of the process, not just a few specific crutches. This is when the barriers to entry really fell and all and sundry could now claim to a photographer. And this crowd included the fanboys and the forum warriors who did not know the first thing about photography from the cameras they were shooting with, but sure as heck could read a spec sheet and compare that to someone else's.

Thus, DPR today.

+1

I like the way you put it and agree.

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