auto ISO sucks with X cameras

Started 4 months ago | Discussions
Christof21
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auto ISO sucks with X cameras
4 months ago

Hi,

This is not the first time I complain about it in some replies.  The way it behaves by ignoring the 1/focale rule to set the shutter speed is a huge problem in my case.

The 1/focale rule was fine for me. I often switch lenses, use zooms and now I have to always keep an eye on the minimum shutter speed.

I admit that I am really surprised that this issue is not often mentioned.

Fuji could have implemented the minimum shutter speed but still taking account the focal length (most camera makers do have this implementation !). Do you know any recent camera which has  an implementation like Fuji ?? If so, please tell me.

Others propose an improvement of this implementation (with a  multiplying factor if you want to take into account OIS). But Fuji broke the rule of 1/focale. I don't call this an auto mode !!

All the Fuji x-cameras have the same "problem" ...

I think I can't go back and uninstall the last firmware on my x-e1. I don't have any solutions for my problem, this is a bad joke from Fuji.

Before, I was complaining also about auto iso when you set aperture and shutter speed. The ec is ignored. This is a mode I really like...

So auto-iso is really a problem for me and I hope Fuji will take seriously into account this in the future firmwares. Please improve auto Iso  and solve these two issues !!!

If some of you know how to uninstall the last firmware, it could interest me.

Thanks and sorry for complaining. I really like my camera but it would be much better with just 2 or 3 fixes.  An expert camera should have these issues fixed.

Fujifilm X-E1
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MayaTlab0
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Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras
In reply to Christof21, 4 months ago

What's always puzzled me about Fuji's auto ISO update a few months ago is why they decided to remove the 1/focal auto minimum shutter speed alongside the introduction of the new fixed custom minimum shutter speeds. Couldn't they have simply added an "auto" setting in the minimum shutter speeds list ? They already had the algorithm since it's how their cameras behaved before.

If they could copy what Nikon, Pentax and Samsung are doing I'd be moderately happy, or at least not so grumpy.

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Christof21
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Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras
In reply to MayaTlab0, 4 months ago

MayaTlab0 wrote:

What's always puzzled me about Fuji's auto ISO update a few months ago is why they decided to remove the 1/focal auto minimum shutter speed alongside the introduction of the new fixed custom minimum shutter speeds. Couldn't they have simply added an "auto" setting in the minimum shutter speeds list ? They already had the algorithm since it's how their cameras behaved before.

It was a downgrade, I agree.

The workaround for this is to use the custom settings. So now, the custom settings are wasted just to set the minimum shutter speed  ! It is not really convenient. It is also going to override the other settings.

If they could copy what Nikon, Pentax and Samsung are doing I'd be moderately happy, or at least not so grumpy.

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ryan2007
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Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras
In reply to Christof21, 4 months ago

I have said and said last year when I switched to Fuji after a couple days using the XE-1 and this is before the XE-2 or XT-1 was even rumored as a new camera.

I discovered this with the p&s X-20 actually.

Anyway, ISO, AF point and Dynamic Range should all be set manually for IMO best results.  I have the X100s now and same for that.

I am sure their are many that keep the metering pattern on advanced and not center weight when the situation calls for or may benefit from changing metering pattern as well.

Even White balance should be set manually if not customized.  Choosing the right Film Simulation mode can also have an effect and for me that is why I use them the way I used to shoot Fuji's film/E-6 counterparts.

In short IMHO, Fuji X cameras work best when you take manual control and that does not mean manual focus, but things related to the exposure. They are the only digital camera system I have felt this way.  First hand experience with the X20, XE-1 and X100s are are the same here for me at least.

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Jim in Hudson
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Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras
In reply to MayaTlab0, 4 months ago

MayaTlab0 wrote:

What's always puzzled me about Fuji's auto ISO update a few months ago is why they decided to remove the 1/focal auto minimum shutter speed alongside the introduction of the new fixed custom minimum shutter speeds. Couldn't they have simply added an "auto" setting in the minimum shutter speeds list ? They already had the algorithm since it's how their cameras behaved before.

If they could copy what Nikon, Pentax and Samsung are doing I'd be moderately happy, or at least not so grumpy.

Fully agree.  What Fujifilm implemented in the latest firmware makes little to no sense.  Importantly, an auto-minimum shutter speed must take into account whether OIS is available and active on the lens.

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MayaTlab0
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Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras
In reply to Christof21, 4 months ago

Christof21 wrote:

It was a downgrade, I agree.

Strictly speaking, I don't think it was a downgrade, but rather trading something for something else while I see no reason to not having the whole cake and eat it.

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Jim in Hudson
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Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras
In reply to MayaTlab0, 4 months ago

MayaTlab0 wrote:

Christof21 wrote:

It was a downgrade, I agree.

Strictly speaking, I don't think it was a downgrade, but rather trading something for something else while I see no reason to not having the whole cake and eat it.

What did the user get in this exchange?

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MayaTlab0
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Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras
In reply to Jim in Hudson, 4 months ago

Jim in Hudson wrote:

MayaTlab0 wrote:

Christof21 wrote:

It was a downgrade, I agree.

Strictly speaking, I don't think it was a downgrade, but rather trading something for something else while I see no reason to not having the whole cake and eat it.

What did the user get in this exchange?

Fixed minimum shutter speeds ! Under certain circumstances it's just as useful as variable minimum shutter speeds. For example if I'm shooting street photography (let's call it that way, I've never liked the name), I'll probably prefer to have a fixed minimum shutter speed in auto ISO around 1/200th second, regardless of the focal length.

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Christof21
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Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras
In reply to Jim in Hudson, 4 months ago

Jim in Hudson wrote:

MayaTlab0 wrote:

Christof21 wrote:

It was a downgrade, I agree.

Strictly speaking, I don't think it was a downgrade, but rather trading something for something else while I see no reason to not having the whole cake and eat it.

What did the user get in this exchange?

The minimum shutter speed, I admit this is a plus.

The problem is that they now ignore the focal length... This is not auto anymore...This is not contradictory, we could have a minimum shutter speed but still have a shutter speed at least 1/f. Or propose  also an auto mode as MayaTlab0 suggested.

They should have never cancelled this auto mode IMHO. I have lost much more than I gained with this firmware (I would prefer to install the previous firmware).

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MartinEA
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Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras
In reply to Christof21, 4 months ago

As a wedding photographer and like Jim the auto ISO works perfectly for me. Photographing moving objects means I have to freeze people and that means a higher shutter speed.

Having the auto ISO working to a focal length wouldn't work for me.

If your photographing something not moving how easy is it just to move the shutter speed dial.

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Jim in Hudson
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Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras
In reply to MartinEA, 4 months ago

MartinEA wrote:

As a wedding photographer and like Jim the auto ISO works perfectly for me. Photographing moving objects means I have to freeze people and that means a higher shutter speed.

Having the auto ISO working to a focal length wouldn't work for me.

If your photographing something not moving how easy is it just to move the shutter speed dial.

Fair question but one both of us should answer, not just me!

IMHO, the primary burden is on the photographer to adjust for subject motion/blur instead of having to adjust for camera-induced blur. Why? Because the camera can reasonably calculate the minimum shutter speed needed to compensate for camera blur given the effective lens focal length and whether OIS is active. By contrast, there is no algorithm to compensate for subject motion/blur because the camera can't (realistaclly) know the speed of the subject.

So what does this mean? If you're first concern is subject blur, you should be shooting in S mode where you pick the shutter speed needed for the subject. Only you know what speed is needed for a race car versus a boat to eliminate subject blur. This would leave the camera to calculate minimum shutter speed needed for all of the rest of us who want to shoot in A or P and who's first concern is camera-induced blur. Just my two cents.

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Christof21
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Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras
In reply to Jim in Hudson, 4 months ago

Jim in Hudson wrote:

MartinEA wrote:

As a wedding photographer and like Jim the auto ISO works perfectly for me. Photographing moving objects means I have to freeze people and that means a higher shutter speed.

Having the auto ISO working to a focal length wouldn't work for me.

If your photographing something not moving how easy is it just to move the shutter speed dial.

Fair question but one both of us should answer, not just me!

IMHO, the primary burden is on the photographer to adjust for subject motion/blur instead of having to adjust for camera-induced blur. Why? Because the camera can reasonably calculate the minimum shutter speed needed to compensate for camera blur given the effective lens focal length and whether OIS is active. By contrast, there is no algorithm to compensate for subject motion/blur because the camera can't (realistaclly) know the speed of the subject.

So what does this mean? If you're first concern is subject blur, you should be shooting in S mode where you pick the shutter speed needed for the subject. Only you know what speed is needed for a race car versus a boat to eliminate subject blur. This would leave the camera to calculate minimum shutter speed needed for all of the rest of us who want to shoot in A or P and who's first concern is camera-induced blur. Just my two cents.

You can have the best of both worlds, really.

They abandonned the mode where it selects at least 1/f. All cameras now can take into account the focal length, note that so far nobody gave me the name of a recent camera which can not take into account it !! I really miss this, this is a pain for me.

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stevenjames
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Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras
In reply to Christof21, 4 months ago

1/focal length is lame to me. Set whatever shutter speed works for you and move on. Its not that hard. With this little camera and standard lens I know that I can handhold no problem using 1/30 so that works fine for me. I've also got great pics hand holding at 1/15 with this and my larger DSLR so what's the beef?

I always thought that 1/focal length was B.S. I never used it with tele lenses thats for sure. Shot weddings with medium format camera and 150mm lens (large & heavy) using 1/60 all day (and night long).

To each his/her own

Steve

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skeys
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Huge difference...
In reply to stevenjames, 4 months ago

stevenjames wrote:

Set whatever shutter speed works for you and move on. Its not that hard.

Steve

It may not be that hard for you, Steve; but that's because you expended the time and effort to learn how to use all the tools your cameras provide you, as opposed to some people who seem unable to understand why they cannot pick up a brand new camera and have it automagically perform their every desire with no intervention on their part.

Steve

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My comments and opinions are my own. I am neither a staff member, nor a paid employee, of DPReview.

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bowportes
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Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras
In reply to Christof21, 4 months ago

Christof21 wrote:

Jim in Hudson wrote:

MartinEA wrote:

As a wedding photographer and like Jim the auto ISO works perfectly for me. Photographing moving objects means I have to freeze people and that means a higher shutter speed.

Having the auto ISO working to a focal length wouldn't work for me.

If your photographing something not moving how easy is it just to move the shutter speed dial.

Fair question but one both of us should answer, not just me!

IMHO, the primary burden is on the photographer to adjust for subject motion/blur instead of having to adjust for camera-induced blur. Why? Because the camera can reasonably calculate the minimum shutter speed needed to compensate for camera blur given the effective lens focal length and whether OIS is active. By contrast, there is no algorithm to compensate for subject motion/blur because the camera can't (realistaclly) know the speed of the subject.

So what does this mean? If you're first concern is subject blur, you should be shooting in S mode where you pick the shutter speed needed for the subject. Only you know what speed is needed for a race car versus a boat to eliminate subject blur. This would leave the camera to calculate minimum shutter speed needed for all of the rest of us who want to shoot in A or P and who's first concern is camera-induced blur. Just my two cents.

You can have the best of both worlds, really.

They abandonned the mode where it selects at least 1/f. All cameras now can take into account the focal length, note that so far nobody gave me the name of a recent camera which can not take into account it !! I really miss this, this is a pain for me.

1/f doesn't work for me. Even with the Fuji 23mm lens, I try to keep ss at 1/100th or faster to ensure sharpness. ISO then automatically floats to 3200 (my maximum), dropping ss slower once it reaches that ISO. This works perfectly for me. I'm glad it's designed the way it is.

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Christof21
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Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras
In reply to stevenjames, 4 months ago

stevenjames wrote:

1/focal length is lame to me. Set whatever shutter speed works for you and move on. Its not that hard. With this little camera and standard lens I know that I can handhold no problem using 1/30 so that works fine for me. I've also got great pics hand holding at 1/15 with this and my larger DSLR so what's the beef?

I always thought that 1/focal length was B.S. I never used it with tele lenses thats for sure. Shot weddings with medium format camera and 150mm lens (large & heavy) using 1/60 all day (and night long).

To each his/her own

Steve

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www.StevenJamesPhotography.com

The rule 1/f makes really sense. It is function of the focal, if you double the focal then in average you will move move twice more.  This is simple math and this approximation works really well.. No surprise that all camera makers use this rule (as far as I know, or a close one) !

Maybe the rule for you would be 2/f. It could depend also  on the OIS. There are better implementations (Nikon would allow 2/f) but I lost this feature  and I really miss it :-(.

When I am in aperture priority mode, the other settings should be AUTO (no need to set the minimum shutter speed).  !

If Fuji builds a zoom 18-135, it will be the worst case to use auto-iso !!!

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MayaTlab0
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Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras
In reply to Christof21, 4 months ago

People shouldn't be to hung up on the 1/focal idea, the main gist of this thread is that it no longer is possible for the camera to automatically alter the minimum shutter speed depending on focal length, which can sometimes be useful, especially when using zooms. The solution is simple : in addition to fixed minimum shutter speeds, just add an "auto" setting.

Whether this automatic variation revolves around the 1/f or 2/f rule should simply depend on a bias selected by the user, just like on Nikon, Pentax or Samsung cameras.

In addition activating the IS should alter this bias automatically if the user so desires.

Then Fuji could go further by memorising different minimum shutter speeds in auto ISO depending the lens in use, or allow users to directly change the fixed minimum shutter speed or the bias to auto minimum shutter speed with the rear dial, etc...

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Peter Jonas
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Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras
In reply to Christof21, 4 months ago

Christof21 wrote:

stevenjames wrote:

1/focal length is lame to me. Set whatever shutter speed works for you and move on. Its not that hard. With this little camera and standard lens I know that I can handhold no problem using 1/30 so that works fine for me. I've also got great pics hand holding at 1/15 with this and my larger DSLR so what's the beef?

I always thought that 1/focal length was B.S. I never used it with tele lenses thats for sure. Shot weddings with medium format camera and 150mm lens (large & heavy) using 1/60 all day (and night long).

To each his/her own

Steve

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www.StevenJamesPhotography.com

The rule 1/f makes really sense. It is function of the focal, if you double the focal then in average you will move move twice more. This is simple math and this approximation works really well.. No surprise that all camera makers use this rule (as far as I know, or a close one) !

Maybe the rule for you would be 2/f. It could depend also on the OIS. There are better implementations (Nikon would allow 2/f) but I lost this feature and I really miss it :-(.

When I am in aperture priority mode, the other settings should be AUTO (no need to set the minimum shutter speed). !

If Fuji builds a zoom 18-135, it will be the worst case to use auto-iso !!!

I remember going through the same debate on the Nikon forum a few years ago. Nikon apparently had been very late to follow Canon (and perhaps some of the others) in adopting the 1/f rule in their implementation of Auto ISO.

There were some people who did not want to hear about it, and there were others who thought they could not exist without it. I was just a neutral observer as I was not then (and am not now) a user of Auto ISO.

In the end when finally Nikon responded to user pressure, they implemented it in an optional way. That way both camps were able to be kept happy.

And I think that is what eventually Fuji will need to do.

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Cheers,
Peter Jonas

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Christof21
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Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras
In reply to MayaTlab0, 4 months ago

MayaTlab0 wrote:

People shouldn't be to hung up on the 1/focal idea, the main gist of this thread is that it no longer is possible for the camera to automatically alter the minimum shutter speed depending on focal length, which can sometimes be useful, especially when using zooms. The solution is simple : in addition to fixed minimum shutter speeds, just add an "auto" setting.

Whether this automatic variation revolves around the 1/f or 2/f rule should simply depend on a bias selected by the user, just like on Nikon, Pentax or Samsung cameras.

In addition activating the IS should alter this bias automatically if the user so desires.

Then Fuji could go further by memorising different minimum shutter speeds in auto ISO depending the lens in use, or allow users to directly change the fixed minimum shutter speed or the bias to auto minimum shutter speed with the rear dial, etc...

And everybody would be happy, no debate.

Nice summary, thanks..

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Christof21
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Re: auto ISO sucks with X cameras
In reply to Peter Jonas, 4 months ago

Peter Jonas wrote:

Christof21 wrote:

stevenjames wrote:

1/focal length is lame to me. Set whatever shutter speed works for you and move on. Its not that hard. With this little camera and standard lens I know that I can handhold no problem using 1/30 so that works fine for me. I've also got great pics hand holding at 1/15 with this and my larger DSLR so what's the beef?

I always thought that 1/focal length was B.S. I never used it with tele lenses thats for sure. Shot weddings with medium format camera and 150mm lens (large & heavy) using 1/60 all day (and night long).

To each his/her own

Steve

-- hide signature --

www.StevenJamesPhotography.com

The rule 1/f makes really sense. It is function of the focal, if you double the focal then in average you will move move twice more. This is simple math and this approximation works really well.. No surprise that all camera makers use this rule (as far as I know, or a close one) !

Maybe the rule for you would be 2/f. It could depend also on the OIS. There are better implementations (Nikon would allow 2/f) but I lost this feature and I really miss it :-(.

When I am in aperture priority mode, the other settings should be AUTO (no need to set the minimum shutter speed). !

If Fuji builds a zoom 18-135, it will be the worst case to use auto-iso !!!

I remember going through the same debate on the Nikon forum a few years ago. Nikon apparently had been very late to follow Canon (and perhaps some of the others) in adopting the 1/f rule in their implementation of Auto ISO.

There were some people who did not want to hear about it, and there were others who thought they could not exist without it. I was just a neutral observer as I was not then (and am not now) a user of Auto ISO.

In the end when finally Nikon responded to user pressure, they implemented it in an optional way. That way both camps were able to be kept happy.

And I think that is what eventually Fuji will need to do.

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Peter Jonas

No pressure at all so far... I'm afraid it is not going to change soon.

This is really important for me, even if some people prefer another system, I hope they can understand that for other people it really matters. Everybody may be satisfied as you said.

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