Catch-All Focus on the XT-1?

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PG Thomas
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Catch-All Focus on the XT-1?
2 months ago

I relay like this Camera and I've retired the X-Pro1

BUT

It doesn't have Catch-All in manual focusing mode for Manual Lenses. And I can't understand why.

Its the most useful feature at motor sports events where one picks a spot on the track and lets the camera fire the shutter when the subject comes into focus.

It has Release/Focus priority which links the shutter to the focus point, so why not for manual lenses when the subject comes into focus rather than the other way round?

The Pentax K5 has this from day 1. And is the reason why I won't retire it now when the Water resistant lenses are released.

Also - why is the Vertical Battery Grip not water resistant? What's the sense in that? You are most likely to use it outdoors at sporting events / heavy telephoto lenses. Surely It wouldn't have been difficult to add a few seals to complete the job.

Semi-Pro camera? Nearly but not quite.

Just my take on the XT-1

Pete

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J Frank Parnell
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Re: Catch-All Focus on the XT-1?
In reply to PG Thomas, 2 months ago

From the Fujifilm web site:

Combined with the rechargeable battery in the body, the battery in the dust-and water-resistant vertical grip provides enough change for approximately 700 frames.

(the typo is Fuji's)

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Just a Photographer
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Re: Catch-All Focus on the XT-1?
In reply to PG Thomas, 2 months ago

Under Priority Focus set both option to focus - should do the trick.

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PG Thomas
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Re: Catch-All Focus on the XT-1?
In reply to J Frank Parnell, 2 months ago

J Frank Parnell wrote:

From the Fujifilm web site:

Combined with the rechargeable battery in the body, the battery in the dust-and water-resistant vertical grip provides enough change for approximately 700 frames.

(the typo is Fuji's)

Hi Frank.

I quote from the VG-XT1 handbook:-

"This product is not waterproof. Keep the interior free of water, sand, dust, mud, salt, harmful gases, and other foreign matter. Do not place on wet surfaces." (My underlining).

In my mind it isn't up to the standard of the XT-1, but lets wait and see how the camera performs when the ''Weather resistant lenses" appear.

The Pentax K5 with it's lens will survive and operate in hours of torrential rain. (As proven this week in the UK) without a blip. That's what I expect from my semi-pro kit.

I hope DP review have the guts to test this when the lenses appear.

Pete

PS. Fuji UK are offering £250 off the price of the XF 18-135 when it is released (if you buy the XT-1). No doubt I will take them up on it as I really would like to go down to one camera system. But for now the K5 is staying.

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PG Thomas
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Re: Catch-All Focus on the XT-1?
In reply to Just a Photographer, 2 months ago

Just a Photographer wrote:

Under Priority Focus set both option to focus - should do the trick.

Tried it.

It should work as logic would suggest that the camera  would use its phase / contrast  detect to confirm focus before releasing the shutter.

But no, the camera shutter just fires irrespective of the focus point of the lens (Pentax 50mm FA 1.4).  I have lots of wildly out of focus images to prove it. Press the shutter- and it fires anywhere from 0.5 meters to infinity!

It clearly needs to communicate with the lens to work, but I can't understand why it is needed.

Any ideas?

Pete

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wchutt
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Re: Catch-All Focus on the XT-1?
In reply to PG Thomas, 2 months ago

With regard to third-party lenses and focus.

I assume you refer to this menu option when you discuss catch all focus?

"Choose how the camera focuses in focus mode AF-S or AF-C.

RELEASE: Shutter response is prioritized over focus. Pictures can be taken when the camera is not in focus. • FOCUS: Focus is prioritized over shutter response. Pictures can be only taken when the camera is in focus."

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PG Thomas
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Re: Catch-All Focus on the XT-1?
In reply to wchutt, 2 months ago

wchutt wrote:

With regard to third-party lenses and focus.

I assume you refer to this menu option when you discuss catch all focus?

"Choose how the camera focuses in focus mode AF-S or AF-C.

RELEASE: Shutter response is prioritized over focus. Pictures can be taken when the camera is not in focus. • FOCUS: Focus is prioritized over shutter response. Pictures can be only taken when the camera is in focus."

Yes

And it doesn't work. Pictures can be taken at any focus position with non Fujinon lenses.

So it only appears to work with lenses which communicate with the body. (I.e. Fujinon). Try it!

Pete

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Chad Hardy
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Re: Catch-All Focus on the XT-1?
In reply to PG Thomas, 2 months ago

PG Thomas wrote:

Just a Photographer wrote:

Under Priority Focus set both option to focus - should do the trick.

Tried it.

It should work as logic would suggest that the camera would use its phase / contrast detect to confirm focus before releasing the shutter.

But no, the camera shutter just fires irrespective of the focus point of the lens (Pentax 50mm FA 1.4). I have lots of wildly out of focus images to prove it. Press the shutter- and it fires anywhere from 0.5 meters to infinity!

It clearly needs to communicate with the lens to work, but I can't understand why it is needed.

Any ideas?

Pete

Just to confirm, you are saying the Pentax K5 will work the way you want it to with a non-native lens (i.e. lens with adapter)?

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Chad Hardy
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Re: Catch-All Focus on the XT-1?
In reply to PG Thomas, 2 months ago

PG Thomas wrote:

Just a Photographer wrote:

Under Priority Focus set both option to focus - should do the trick.

Tried it.

It should work as logic would suggest that the camera would use its phase / contrast detect to confirm focus before releasing the shutter.

But no, the camera shutter just fires irrespective of the focus point of the lens (Pentax 50mm FA 1.4). I have lots of wildly out of focus images to prove it. Press the shutter- and it fires anywhere from 0.5 meters to infinity!

It clearly needs to communicate with the lens to work, but I can't understand why it is needed.

Any ideas?

Pete

If the sensor can't communicate with the lens, how is it is supposed to know when a subject is in focus?  For the same reason AF doesn't work I would not expect the camera to know it is in focus with a non native lens.  However if you say Pentax has pulled this off then cool beans.  My A7R works the same as the Fuji.

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wchutt
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Re: Catch-All Focus on the XT-1?
In reply to PG Thomas, 2 months ago

PG Thomas wrote:

wchutt wrote:

With regard to third-party lenses and focus.

I assume you refer to this menu option when you discuss catch all focus?

"Choose how the camera focuses in focus mode AF-S or AF-C.

RELEASE: Shutter response is prioritized over focus. Pictures can be taken when the camera is not in focus. • FOCUS: Focus is prioritized over shutter response. Pictures can be only taken when the camera is in focus."

Yes

And it doesn't work. Pictures can be taken at any focus position with non Fujinon lenses.

So it only appears to work with lenses which communicate with the body. (I.e. Fujinon). Try it!

Pete

Of course it doesn't work with lenses that can't communicate with the body. There is no way for the focus system to interact with the shutter system.

On most Nikon bodies the phase-sensitive focus sensors on the mirror can indicate focus using a green dot at the lower left hand side of the screen. This works if the lens is 5.6 or faster and shutter is depressed half way. I don't remember if the Nikon allows prioritized shutter control.

For the XT-1 Fujifilm does not use the phase sensitive pixels on the sensor to detect for focus. Instead in manual mode they provide the dual-screen mode so you can use focus peaking, a split screen display, or just visual inspection to set and confirm focus.

I have used D200/300/700 bodies since 2008 and the XT-1 manual mode outperforms the Nikon green dot method by far.

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shigzeo ?
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Re: Catch-All Focus on the XT-1?
In reply to wchutt, 2 months ago

wchutt wrote:

PG Thomas wrote:

wchutt wrote:

With regard to third-party lenses and focus.

I assume you refer to this menu option when you discuss catch all focus?

"Choose how the camera focuses in focus mode AF-S or AF-C.

RELEASE: Shutter response is prioritized over focus. Pictures can be taken when the camera is not in focus. • FOCUS: Focus is prioritized over shutter response. Pictures can be only taken when the camera is in focus."

Yes

And it doesn't work. Pictures can be taken at any focus position with non Fujinon lenses.

So it only appears to work with lenses which communicate with the body. (I.e. Fujinon). Try it!

Pete

Of course it doesn't work with lenses that can't communicate with the body. There is no way for the focus system to interact with the shutter system.

On most Nikon bodies the phase-sensitive focus sensors on the mirror can indicate focus using a green dot at the lower left hand side of the screen. This works if the lens is 5.6 or faster and shutter is depressed half way. I don't remember if the Nikon allows prioritized shutter control.

For the XT-1 Fujifilm does not use the phase sensitive pixels on the sensor to detect for focus. Instead in manual mode they provide the dual-screen mode so you can use focus peaking, a split screen display, or just visual inspection to set and confirm focus.

I have used D200/300/700 bodies since 2008 and the XT-1 manual mode outperforms the Nikon green dot method by far.

Nikon has the system the OP is talking about. I used it all the time. Amazing. The Fujifilm doesn't. Every time the shutter is tripped, no matter the setting, it will fire or try to achieve focus. The camera does NOT understand trap focus with native or other lenses, which is a shame. That said, the control layout isn't as good for that sort of photography as it is on Nikon cameras.

The buttons are harder to blindly press and each one feels the same, so there is no physical indication of which button you are pressing apart from position of the thumb. I have been rather unimpressed by the AF system and the shutter tripping system of the X-T1. It takes too many opposing ideas and throws them into a body that looks like it should be able to do the trick, but does not.

It is NOT a replacement for a Nikon DSLR for a number of key photographic areas. It is an awesome camera though.

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HB1969
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Re: Catch-All Focus on the XT-1?
In reply to PG Thomas, 2 months ago

PG Thomas wrote:

J Frank Parnell wrote:

From the Fujifilm web site:

Combined with the rechargeable battery in the body, the battery in the dust-and water-resistant vertical grip provides enough change for approximately 700 frames.

(the typo is Fuji's)

Hi Frank.

I quote from the VG-XT1 handbook:-

"This product is not waterproof. Keep the interior free of water, sand, dust, mud, salt, harmful gases, and other foreign matter. Do not place on wet surfaces." (My underlining).

Perhaps fuji is using the same language used by watch manufacturers...ie water-resistant is not the same as water-proof. Water-resistant means that it can tolerate being lightly splashed with water. Water-proof can be immersed in water to a certain depth. For example, my watch says water-resistant to 50m but in the user manual "do not immerse in water".

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Dabbler
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Re: Catch-All Focus on the XT-1?
In reply to PG Thomas, 2 months ago

The XT1 isn't waterproof either. But it is weatherproof as is the batterygrip. If you need waterproof get a waterproof housing.

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PG Thomas
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Re: Catch-All Focus on the XT-1?
In reply to Chad Hardy, 2 months ago

Chad Hardy wrote:

If the sensor can't communicate with the lens, how is it is supposed to know when a subject is in focus? For the same reason AF doesn't work I would not expect the camera to know it is in focus with a non native lens. However if you say Pentax has pulled this off then cool beans. My A7R works the same as the Fuji.

Hi Chad

Yes that's how it works.  I often use the Tamron SP 300/2.8 at sporting events focused  on a part of the track and then raised a tad so that the image is out of focus at the focus point. When the Car / bike (whatever) comes into focus the shutter fires.

Saves a lot of wasted shots!

Pete

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shigzeo ?
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Re: Catch-All Focus on the XT-1?
In reply to PG Thomas, 2 months ago

PG Thomas wrote:

Chad Hardy wrote:

If the sensor can't communicate with the lens, how is it is supposed to know when a subject is in focus? For the same reason AF doesn't work I would not expect the camera to know it is in focus with a non native lens. However if you say Pentax has pulled this off then cool beans. My A7R works the same as the Fuji.

Hi Chad

Yes that's how it works. I often use the Tamron SP 300/2.8 at sporting events focused on a part of the track and then raised a tad so that the image is out of focus at the focus point. When the Car / bike (whatever) comes into focus the shutter fires.

Saves a lot of wasted shots!

Pete

It is useful in so many places. Set a distance, finger on the trigger, depressed fully, wait, or drag the camera in a line and fire it does only when the camera detects focus. No AF motor engaged, just AF prediction. Amazing tech that the X-T1 lacks.

Not only that but the shutter always triggers the AF module, too. Unless I'm missing something, there is no way to use AF with the AF button only, and 'M' mode doesn't count.

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PG Thomas
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Re: Catch-All Focus on the XT-1?
In reply to shigzeo ?, 2 months ago

shigzeo ? wrote:

It is useful in so many places. Set a distance, finger on the trigger, depressed fully, wait, or drag the camera in a line and fire it does only when the camera detects focus. No AF motor engaged, just AF prediction. Amazing tech that the X-T1 lacks.

Not only that but the shutter always triggers the AF module, too. Unless I'm missing something, there is no way to use AF with the AF button only, and 'M' mode doesn't count.

The way I see this. In AF mode The Fuji sends signals to the focusing motor to bring the subject into focus within the focus area. So it is the Camera (not the lens) which matters here.

With the K-5 you leave the camera in AF.S as Shigzeo mentions, and the camera waits for the image to be in focus before releasing the shutter as it clearly has no control over the manual lens.

Of course if one pans the camera around it will find something in focus and fire. But in this kind of sports event where one chooses the point of focus (on a tri-or monopod) you can keep that out of focus until the subject is at the right distance. I typically have a piece of out of focus crash barrier or road surface in the focus area where I know I will get a full frame shot of the subject in the centre of the frame in focus when it comes into view (usually about 10 meters nearer).

it seems to me that the XT-1 could do this. Leaving the setting on AF-S (Focus), and allow this mode  as an option in 'Shoot without Lens".

Pete

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shigzeo ?
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Re: Catch-All Focus on the XT-1?
In reply to PG Thomas, 2 months ago

PG Thomas wrote:

shigzeo ? wrote:

It is useful in so many places. Set a distance, finger on the trigger, depressed fully, wait, or drag the camera in a line and fire it does only when the camera detects focus. No AF motor engaged, just AF prediction. Amazing tech that the X-T1 lacks.

Not only that but the shutter always triggers the AF module, too. Unless I'm missing something, there is no way to use AF with the AF button only, and 'M' mode doesn't count.

The way I see this. In AF mode The Fuji sends signals to the focusing motor to bring the subject into focus within the focus area. So it is the Camera (not the lens) which matters here.

With the K-5 you leave the camera in AF.S as Shigzeo mentions, and the camera waits for the image to be in focus before releasing the shutter as it clearly has no control over the manual lens.

Of course if one pans the camera around it will find something in focus and fire. But in this kind of sports event where one chooses the point of focus (on a tri-or monopod) you can keep that out of focus until the subject is at the right distance. I typically have a piece of out of focus crash barrier or road surface in the focus area where I know I will get a full frame shot of the subject in the centre of the frame in focus when it comes into view (usually about 10 meters nearer).

it seems to me that the XT-1 could do this. Leaving the setting on AF-S (Focus), and allow this mode as an option in 'Shoot without Lens".

Pete

Would be so nice if this were available.

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marvin t martian
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Re: Catch-All Focus on the XT-1?
In reply to Chad Hardy, 2 months ago

Chad Hardy wrote:

If the sensor can't communicate with the lens, how is it is supposed to know when a subject is in focus?

PDAF does not require control over the focus mechanism to confirm focus.

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J Frank Parnell
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Re: Catch-All Focus on the XT-1?
In reply to PG Thomas, 2 months ago

PG Thomas wrote:

J Frank Parnell wrote:

From the Fujifilm web site:

Combined with the rechargeable battery in the body, the battery in the dust-and water-resistant vertical grip provides enough change for approximately 700 frames.

(the typo is Fuji's)

Hi Frank.

I quote from the VG-XT1 handbook:-

"This product is not waterproof. Keep the interior free of water, sand, dust, mud, salt, harmful gases, and other foreign matter. Do not place on wet surfaces." (My underlining).

In my mind it isn't up to the standard of the XT-1, but lets wait and see how the camera performs when the ''Weather resistant lenses" appear.

The Pentax K5 with it's lens will survive and operate in hours of torrential rain. (As proven this week in the UK) without a blip. That's what I expect from my semi-pro kit.

I hope DP review have the guts to test this when the lenses appear.

Pete

PS. Fuji UK are offering £250 off the price of the XF 18-135 when it is released (if you buy the XT-1). No doubt I will take them up on it as I really would like to go down to one camera system. But for now the K5 is staying.

Just noticed this from the X-T1 manual:

"Do not place the camera on a wet surface." Fuji doesn't seem to be claiming the camera is waterproof either.

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junyo
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Re: Catch-All Focus on the XT-1?
In reply to PG Thomas, 2 months ago

PG Thomas wrote:

I relay like this Camera and I've retired the X-Pro1

BUT

It doesn't have Catch-All in manual focusing mode for Manual Lenses. And I can't understand why.

Its the most useful feature at motor sports events where one picks a spot on the track and lets the camera fire the shutter when the subject comes into focus.

It has Release/Focus priority which links the shutter to the focus point, so why not for manual lenses when the subject comes into focus rather than the other way round?

The Pentax K5 has this from day 1. And is the reason why I won't retire it now when the Water resistant lenses are released.

Also - why is the Vertical Battery Grip not water resistant? What's the sense in that? You are most likely to use it outdoors at sporting events / heavy telephoto lenses. Surely It wouldn't have been difficult to add a few seals to complete the job.

Semi-Pro camera? Nearly but not quite.

Just my take on the XT-1

Pete

FYI, it's "catch in-focus" not catch-all.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autofocus#Trap_focus

Nope, Fuji doesn't have it. If you look at the companies that have implemented it, they have some legacy non-AF glass to support, and it's a neat feature for that niche. I'd assume Fuji didn't add it to their bodies because they have no MF lenses and want to sell AF lenses.

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