POLL: How often do you shoot raw images?

Started 5 months ago | Polls
Greynerd
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Re: POLL: How often do you shoot raw images?
In reply to Tom Axford, 5 months ago

It is such a simple step switching between RAW and non RAW in a camera one has to wonder what the point of all the arguing is. The OP only wanted to know who used what.

Yet as usual we have all this tribal you must use only one or the other stuff or one is complete rubbish and the other perfect (or their use of the camera is so perfect they do not need it) when most sensible people sit in the middle and use what suits best at the time.

Tom Axford wrote:

How often do you shoot raw images (including raw+jpeg) rather than jpeg alone?

If your use of raw varies with the type of camera you are using, then please answer this poll for your use of Panasonic compact cameras only.

I have put this poll in the Micro Four Thirds forum also to see how much difference there is.

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adygadam
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Re: POLL: How often do you shoot raw images?
In reply to Tom Axford, 5 months ago

Tom Axford wrote:

morepix wrote:

Tom Axford wrote:

So far, only 3 people never use raw. I'm surprised there aren't more than that!

Are you looking for support for your own habits?

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David
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David,

You're a cynic!

In fact, I almost always use raw myself, but I do know many photographers who never use raw,

I dont want to sound rude, but how would a photographer "an experienced photo shooter" never use raw "digital equivalent of film negative" ?

but quite possibly they are not users of this website, or maybe they just read the site but have never bothered to register (and so cannot vote).

Tom.

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Damian

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Brue
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Re: POLL: How often do you shoot raw images?
In reply to John Beavin, 5 months ago

I see what I hear - JPEG = Mp3 : raw = at the worst "flac"

Digital compression is lossy in way shape or form. JPEGS are lossy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_file_formats#JPEG.2FJFIF

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Brue
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Re: POLL: How often do you shoot raw images?
In reply to Brue, 5 months ago

John, if you prefer cd sound over vinyl  that's cool but raw is like the original with the capability to adjust

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Mikedigi
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Re: POLL: How often do you shoot RAW images?
In reply to Tom Axford, 5 months ago

I've voted "never".

On this enthusiast Forum, with a Poll, or an ordinary question, you'll get a high percentage of RAW shooters.

The majority of people who do not shoot RAW will not vote either.

Out there in the real world, there are maybe less than 1% who use RAW.  Furthermore, a very high percentage of the 99+% of people who don't shoot RAW

-  have never heard of RAW

-  always use Intelligent Auto mode

-  don't know how to switch the flash off, or the Macro on.

Mike

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cainn24
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Re: POLL: How often do you shoot raw images?
In reply to Brue, 5 months ago

Brue wrote:

I see what I hear - JPEG = Mp3 : raw = at the worst "flac"

Digital compression is lossy in way shape or form. JPEGS are lossy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_file_formats#JPEG.2FJFIF

As long as you shoot Fine JPEG, post processing is like remixing an MP3 encoded with LAME at 320CBR.  Yes, technically you started with a lossy format, but it was still a high fidelity sample.

Let's not take this analogy too far though because it will eventually fall flat.  If there was greater scope with FLAC (or any other form of lossless compression of course) for eradicating hisses and pops or correcting waveform distortions (clipping specifically), especially if the practical benefit of this greater scope (or even the existence of it) was hotly debated, then it would work better.

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John Beavin
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Re: POLL: How often do you shoot RAW images?
In reply to Mikedigi, 5 months ago

You are probably right Mike, also I would add 99% do not read their camera's manual, I mean, really read and understand what their camera is capable of.

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Brue
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Re: POLL: How often do you shoot raw images?
In reply to cainn24, 5 months ago

, cainn24 wrote:

Brue wrote:

I see what I hear - JPEG = Mp3 : raw = at the worst "flac"

Digital compression is lossy in way shape or form. JPEGS are lossy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_file_formats#JPEG.2FJFIF

As long as you shoot Fine JPEG, post processing is like remixing an MP3 encoded with LAME at 320CBR. Yes, technically you started with a lossy format, but it was still a high fidelity sample.

Let's not take this analogy too far though because it will eventually fall flat. If there was greater scope with FLAC (or any other form of lossless compression of course) for eradicating hisses and pops or correcting waveform distortions (clipping specifically)

flac does not eradicate, it is a lossless format (that is why Neil Young and I like it) - MP3 does what

raw does not eradicate - jpeg does what

, especially if the practical benefit of this greater scope (or even the existence of it) was hotly debated, then it would work better.

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nicodimus22
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Re: POLL: How often do you shoot RAW images?
In reply to Mikedigi, 5 months ago

Mikedigi wrote:


Out there in the real world, there are maybe less than 1% who use RAW. Furthermore, a very high percentage of the 99+% of people who don't shoot RAW

Most people don't own a camera that can shoot RAW, so they have no choice. Increasingly, they just use their phones and don't own a dedicated camera of any kind. So, I think you have to ask "Of the people who can shoot RAW, how many do?"

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cainn24
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Re: POLL: How often do you shoot raw images?
In reply to Greynerd, 5 months ago

Greynerd wrote:

Yet as usual we have all this tribal you must use only one or the other stuff or one is complete rubbish and the other perfect (or their use of the camera is so perfect they do not need it) when most sensible people sit in the middle and use what suits best at the time.

None of the tribal nonsense you speak of comes from our Panasonic forum I don't think.  What seems to happen instead is that people encounter truly hardcore RAW proponents and purists elsewhere (check out the version of this poll posted in the m43 forum where everyone is complaining that Tom didn't include an "I shoot RAW exclusively" option as if the "RAW (or RAW+JPEG)" option was somehow unpalatable) and then project that attitude onto anyone and everyone who dares to extol its virtues.  The funny things is though that as a RAW+JPEG (and occasional JPEG only) shooter myself, I don't feel judged by the real RAW purists amongst us.  I'm perfectly at peace with the fact that some people like to push the envelope even further and more often than I do, just as I am perfectly at peace with the fact that there are many full-frame enthusiasts out there who consider my compacts, and even my m43 gear, wholly inadequate for their own particular purposes.  Ultimately, every single one of us resides at some point along a spectrum of expectation where other people are both above and below us (in that respect), so I think it's hard to avoid becoming somewhat hypocritical if you take issue with it.

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sherman_levine
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Re: POLL: How often do you shoot raw images?
In reply to cainn24, 5 months ago

cainn24 wrote:

Greynerd wrote:

Yet as usual we have all this tribal you must use only one or the other stuff or one is complete rubbish and the other perfect (or their use of the camera is so perfect they do not need it) when most sensible people sit in the middle and use what suits best at the time.

None of the tribal nonsense you speak of comes from our Panasonic forum I don't think. What seems to happen instead is that people encounter truly hardcore RAW proponents and purists elsewhere (check out the version of this poll posted in the m43 forum where everyone is complaining that Tom didn't include an "I shoot RAW exclusively" option as if the "RAW (or RAW+JPEG)" option was somehow unpalatable) and then project that attitude onto anyone and everyone who dares to extol its virtues. The funny things is though that as a RAW+JPEG (and occasional JPEG only) shooter myself, I don't feel judged by the real RAW purists amongst us. I'm perfectly at peace with the fact that some people like to push the envelope even further and more often than I do, just as I am perfectly at peace with the fact that there are many full-frame enthusiasts out there who consider my compacts, and even my m43 gear, wholly inadequate for their own particular purposes. Ultimately, every single one of us resides at some point along a spectrum of expectation where other people are both above and below us (in that respect), so I think it's hard to avoid becoming somewhat hypocritical if you take issue with it.

I've ended up shooting RAW-only because it was simply less confusing to me than saving duplicate Raw/JPG image sets and figuring out which to use for what.  Picasa or FastStone or Irfanview work fine on the RAW files for the initial culling.

Pretty sure saving Raw-only is faster than Raw+JPG on FZ70

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cainn24
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Re: POLL: How often do you shoot raw images?
In reply to sherman_levine, 5 months ago

sherman_levine wrote:

I've ended up shooting RAW-only because it was simply less confusing to me than saving duplicate Raw/JPG image sets and figuring out which to use for what. Picasa or FastStone or Irfanview work fine on the RAW files for the initial culling.

Pretty sure saving Raw-only is faster than Raw+JPG on FZ70

One of the reasons I like to shoot RAW+JPEG, particularly with my Panasonic cameras, is that I'm often very impressed by what the Panasonic JPEG engine can produce in terms of the combination of sharpness, detail resolution, contrast and colour.  For most of the images I shoot I don't touch the RAW, at least not straight away.  Instead I evaluate the full resolution JPEG output instead.  And when I see an image I really like, I am then inspired to play with the RAW using the JPEG as a guide.  I will often tweak many things of course, but nine times out of ten I end up with something very similar to the JPEG, but with the superior noise handling provided by software like DxO Optics.  In my previous efforts to stick with JPEG I tried Neat Image (both with profiles and without) and a whole bunch of other methodologies (and camera settings) for minimizing and cleaning up blotchy Panasonic JPEG engine noise, but although the results can be quite acceptable on occasion, nothing matches the silky smooth result that DxO Optics provides.  Not unless you reduce your output resolution to hide things, or resort to copious use of a heal tool in Photoshop/Gimp or whatever.

The other reason I shoot RAW+JPEG is because I spend a lot of my time using Ubuntu (or at least one other Linux distro) where my scope for working effectively with RAW is a little diminished.  None of these things really bother me though as all the compromises are just part of my current process which will undoubtedly evolve further soon enough.

(There's a bit of nostalgia relating to some great early JPEG results I got out of the FZ200 lurking around in all that mess too)

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carl english
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Re: POLL: How often do you shoot raw images?
In reply to Stevie Boy Blue, 5 months ago

Stevie Boy Blue wrote:

Not sure of the purpose for this thread but, for what it’s worth, I see RAW as a complete waste of time.

I often see the efforts of RAW advocators on this forum and must admit to being less than impressed with the results they’ve attempted to achieve by spending extra processing time on a PC compared to the split second it takes for the likes of a Panasonic FZ to spit out a beautifully rendered Jpeg, especially where in-camera picture adjustments have been primed to optimum before the event.

Furthermore, as a keen wildlife snapper, the 5 FPS burst mode available on the likes of the FZ150/200 is an invaluable asset. Shooting in the Jpeg only format means I don’t have to wait for the buffer to catch-up, which is something I’d almost certainly have to do if attempting a running sequence of shots in the RAW format.

I’ve said it many times already, but in my experience there’s no better Jpeg producing machine than the FZ150 when it comes to this type of camera. And on the rare occasions that the 150 doesn’t quite spit out the quality I expect from it straight OOC, a brief few moments spent in Photoshop 7 (the old pro version), usually does the trick. Fact is, the be all and end all of post processing does not start and finish with the RAW format. In my experience Jpegs lend themselves very well to after shot tweaking on the PC; it’s just that most of the time no further adjustments are required to out of camera examples shot in the finest setting.

So, whilst I appreciate that RAW users have the time and like to play around with their images, I’ve never felt that my own tendency to shoot only in the Jpeg format leaves me handicapped in any way. On the contrary, I’m still left gobsmacked by the quality and clarity of some of the Jpegs my FZ’s churn out in extra quick time; despite that I still feel the FZ200’s noisier than the superior 150 straight OOC.

And if there’s any doubt in the minds of anyone reading this that Jpegs aren’t up to scratch compared to RAW, check out the many FZ examples displayed from the likes of Donald B, Gary S, Cat150 and Ysal to name but a few of the better superzoom photographers we have here in the Panasonic Forum. As far as I’m aware, all four of those guys generally, if not always shoot Jpegs with FZ machines.

So, except for who really needs RAW, need I say more?

Happy snapping and regards

Stevie Boy

Hi Stevie, rather late coming into this thread but must agree with your comments 100% You could check my history re this topic but I will briefly mention I'm an ex pro Photographer using Fuji then Nikon D700 and have read so much about virtues of shooting raw that I force myself to use it but alas for only a short period because my experience in Photography Film and Digital meant for me jpeg was the choice (not saying its right for all) I'm now using FZ150 and the damn thing will not produce a bad image which is annoying as I wanted to buy the Nikon D5300 but after much research have decided to stick with the Panasonic, the image below is a casual snapshot of my granddaughter ooc.

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Greynerd
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Re: POLL: How often do you shoot raw images?
In reply to cainn24, 5 months ago

The impression I am getting in this thread is more a case of hard core JPEG proponents and it was Erik's post saying RAW was pointless that swung this thread in to conflict. I rarely use RAW but just do not rule it out completely. Also you are obviously not at peace over people looking down at your kit as you are concious enough about it to add it in to the discussion. When people say a subject does not bother them you know for a fact it is grinding away inside.

cainn24 wrote:

Greynerd wrote:

Yet as usual we have all this tribal you must use only one or the other stuff or one is complete rubbish and the other perfect (or their use of the camera is so perfect they do not need it) when most sensible people sit in the middle and use what suits best at the time.

None of the tribal nonsense you speak of comes from our Panasonic forum I don't think. What seems to happen instead is that people encounter truly hardcore RAW proponents and purists elsewhere (check out the version of this poll posted in the m43 forum where everyone is complaining that Tom didn't include an "I shoot RAW exclusively" option as if the "RAW (or RAW+JPEG)" option was somehow unpalatable) and then project that attitude onto anyone and everyone who dares to extol its virtues. The funny things is though that as a RAW+JPEG (and occasional JPEG only) shooter myself, I don't feel judged by the real RAW purists amongst us. I'm perfectly at peace with the fact that some people like to push the envelope even further and more often than I do, just as I am perfectly at peace with the fact that there are many full-frame enthusiasts out there who consider my compacts, and even my m43 gear, wholly inadequate for their own particular purposes. Ultimately, every single one of us resides at some point along a spectrum of expectation where other people are both above and below us (in that respect), so I think it's hard to avoid becoming somewhat hypocritical if you take issue with it.

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cainn24
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Re: POLL: How often do you shoot raw images?
In reply to Greynerd, 5 months ago

Greynerd wrote:

Also you are obviously not at peace over people looking down at your kit as you are concious enough about it to add it in to the discussion. When people say a subject does not bother them you know for a fact it is grinding away inside.

If that was true, every single time anyone ever made peace with anything, or anyone, they'd never be able to mention their success.  Or even think about it.

What a strange illogical world that would be!

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doto41
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Nearly never
In reply to Tom Axford, 5 months ago

when shooting in difficult condition I try to remember to shoot RAW+jpeg, but many times I forget. Did I miss a few shots because of this? probably. Most of my shots have been praised and dissected critically in many places, and while there has been a lot of criticism, the IQ, sharpness and detail have never received a comment that they would have been better had I shot in RAW. Lately I've started shooting with a m4/3 system, and thought this is the time to overcome my RAW phobia and learn processing RAW files to fully exploit the wonderful potential of my gear. What happened in reality is that I'm so happy with the jpegs out of the camera that I've postponed going to the shrink to deal with that phobia, so I'm still a 99% jpeg shooter, and because of that have not become efficient dealing with the few RAW files I do try.

Just don't tell anybody I don't use RAW, many people here think I'm a serious amateur, I would hate to ruin their concept of me

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Mikedigi
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Re: Nearly never
In reply to doto41, 5 months ago

doto41 wrote:

LX5, FZ8, FZ50, Olympus EM5, panny 20mm 1.7, panny 14mm 2.5, oly 45mm 1.8, oly 40-150, minolta 0, raynox 250, oly c-180, oly b-300 (and hoping for more :))

I didn't know you had entered m4/3.  Do you like having to decide which camera and/or lens to use, or was life easier when you just had the FZ8?

Mike

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AlGunther
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Re: POLL: How often do you shoot raw images?
In reply to sherman_levine, 5 months ago

sherman_levine wrote:

 Given current software, raw is, if anything, simpler.--

??

OK, that's something I've not read before.  Is that true for the SIKYPIX Studio 3.1 SE that came with my camera?  I've read that it's not that easy to use.  If the latter is true, what software are you suggesting?  If it's not true, where can I best find suggestions on getting started processing raw?

Al

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phototransformations
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Re: POLL: How often do you shoot raw images?
In reply to AlGunther, 5 months ago

sherman_levine wrote:

 Given current software, raw is, if anything, simpler.--

??

OK, that's something I've not read before.  Is that true for the SIKYPIX Studio 3.1 SE that came with my camera?  I've read that it's not that easy to use.  If the latter is true, what software are you suggesting?  If it's not true, where can I best find suggestions on getting started processing raw?

Al

I'm not Sherman, but I can say that processing RAW files in Lightroom or in Photoshop via Adobe Camera Raw is quite simple, and that much of the process can be automated for each camera you use. SilkyPix is not nearly as intuitive, nor is PhotoNinja, though the latter is a useful alternative. A free (but also not intuitive) alternative is Raw Therapee.

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sherman_levine
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Re: POLL: How often do you shoot raw images?
In reply to AlGunther, 5 months ago

AlGunther wrote:

sherman_levine wrote:

Given current software, raw is, if anything, simpler.--

??

OK, that's something I've not read before. Is that true for the SIKYPIX Studio 3.1 SE that came with my camera? I've read that it's not that easy to use. If the latter is true, what software are you suggesting? If it's not true, where can I best find suggestions on getting started processing raw?

Al

I tend to shoot at higher ISOs (400-1600) and haven't been happy with the out-of-camera JPGs, but can do much better with the .RW2 files.

For me, saving as RAW+JPG is a nuisance, because I never remember which images I'm using as JPGs and which from RAW, so saving as RAW only makes my life simpler.

One caveat - the major problem with raw processors is that they tend to support a camera only after it's been released for a while - but for the moment assume that your camera's supported (FZ200, FZ70 are supported by all the major products )

Microsoft is similarly tardy at displaying thumbnails for raw images. I purchased a copy of the FastPictureViewer codec pack, which is much more up-to-date.

SP3.1SE is rather old - As far as I can tell their only update is the modification required to  handle new cameras - and I guess panasonic has an arrangement with them to have the update available by the time the camera's released to the public.

The new version of SP is better, but quite expensive as I recall.

I find that Photo Ninja does an excellent job of noise reduction and rescue of over- and under-exposed areas.   PN does not automatically perform geometric correction at wide angle, so you'll need to do those manually

I have less personal experience with DXO and the Adobe products.  DXO and Adobe do perform geometric corrections automatically.

My workflow is

1. Initial cull with FastStone or Irfanview (which display the JPG imbedded within the Raw)

2. Process the images individually in the Raw processor.  I always do a bit of cropping, so I need to work one image at a time anyway.

3. Convert in batch to JPG for posting and albums.

Sherm

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