Convince me to buy a D800 (+BHPV question)

Started 6 months ago | Discussions
user_name
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Re: Convince me to buy a D800 (+BHPV question)
In reply to TimStir, 6 months ago

TimStir wrote:

Excellent reply, thanks for the critical analysis. Here are my responses:

1) I would hate to buy a D800 and then a few months later a D900 with 48MP an extra stop ISo/DR and 7FPs gets released at $2500. This wont happen now but surely you can see that it is disappointing for people to buy something to see it replaced quickly with something far better quickly? If I knew a D900 would appear soon i would simply wait.

Well, one never knows, but I think there will be diminishing returns on higher megapixel cameras.  If 36mp is enough and can be used for your paid work, then you should just go for it and don't worry much about what is next in the pipeline.

2) I could rent but I prefer to have the camera in my hands for at least 1 week. At the rental price it probably doens't make a big difference to buy one and sell it on soon afterwards. But I will check out the rental options

I fully understand that and that is wise thinking if you are serious about the camera.

3)I don't print huge and 36MP is wasted on me. however, I do need 16MP in the DX crop area and do want FF sensor for landscape and shallow DoF work. The D700 is fantastic, but having 5.5MP in the DX crop area is a bug step backwards for my wildlife work. The D610 is not any btter really and i end up without a significant advance in metering and focusing.

I would prefer the D800 over the D610 as well for the D800's better features.

4) finances are actually a deal. My wife and I are lucky to each earn 6 figures (and the wife has 10 month maternity leave at full pay, not bad for the US!), the D800 is just 1 of my paychecks after removing mortgage, food and utility bills. I am just very frugal, and always save money for things like house deposit, retirement, unemployment - all important but all healthy enough atm.

I like what you are doing and it sounds like you have thought things out financially very well.  Good for you!

5) this is a cash purchase, I get paid wednesday.

Excellent.  Cash always talks the best deal.

This is the first time I am doing paid event work. I don't know what will come of it exactly but I broadly expect to make $2-3000 in a full academic year just doing the occasional event work at then university. I get about $400 per gig, and had the option to do 2 events in April and May (first I couldn't make due to baby). Summer will be quiet and i ahve to see what the fall semester brings I have also been asked to photogrpah some weddings but turned the offer down as i don't want that stress right now. This isn't a business and form a business perspective this would be a bad investment. But photography is a big hobby and I want the event work to help pay for the hobby and make me justify expensive toys.

You have to do what you are passionate about and what makes you happy.

My work is also stressful and I would love to move into something more enjoyable. In a few years I hope to have paid of the mortgage and be able to do work that is more fulfilling rather well paid. Some easy event stuff now will give me practice and help me decide if it is something I could do fully professionally.

A second set of vocational skills is always a good idea and if it is something you love you are more likely to be successful at it.

From your answers I don't think that you need anyone to talk you into that purchase.  You seem to have analyzed this far better than most buyers would.  Best of luck with your decision!

user_name wrote:

TimStir wrote:

This has been a dream camera since release but I'm pretty frugal and saved the money for a house deposit, then I found out I would become a father so held off the purchase some more.

Now I am kind of thinking it is now or never. I don't want to wait until the D800 is near EoL.

Why not?

I have both the D800 and a D700. The D700 is well past its EOL, but I still use it and it works great!

I already hear rumors of a D800S, but I assume this will be fairly minor tweaks and several hundred more $$ ???

Unless you have a budget that is higher, then it really doesn't make sense to worry about future models that cost more. I suspect the D800 will still be produced as long as there is demand, so I would not feel rushed.

Even if the model is terminated, there will be refurbished units and used D800s for sale. It was the release of the D800 that drove the D700 used prices down and that was exactly when I bought my D700.

In a couple of weeks I have a paid event to shoot semi-professionally (MBA gradation at prestigious private school)). I currently have a D90 and D7000, Nikon 24-70, 70-200, 300mm f/4.0, 70-300, 50mm f/1.8D and 85mm f/1.8G for FF (sigma 10-20mm, nikon 16-85 and 35mm f/1.8 for DX). I know this kit is perfectly capable of the event in question but a D800 will help (d800 with 24-70 and the 85mm f/1.8 on the D7000), and this event should hopefully be the first of many.

Why not rent a D800 and see if you really need/want one?

Despite shooting the event I'm mostly a nature photographer. The D800 is evidently superb for landscape and the pixel density helps with wildlife. But the latter is one of my concerns. I find the 300mm f/4 and 1.4xTC just about right for wildlife and so get the most out of the D800 would require a somewhat big and expensive lens upgrade.

How big do you print? 36mp is great for huge prints, but if you rarely or never print that big the advantages of the D800 over something like a used D700 is a steep price to pay for those extra pixels.

Also, you scare me when you mentioned a new house and a new baby. Are you really financially secure enough to justify this? If this is a fun toy, do you have $3,000 set aside for this?

Note, if this is for pleasure this should be a cash purchase, not credit. If you don't have the cash in the bank, wait.

If this is a tool to make you revenue you should consider carefully what the projected increase in revenue this camera will generate. If that increase is ≥$3,000 in ≤ 1 year it is a must-buy deal. If that return on investment takes years, then I would say it may not be the best way to invest $3,000 (from a business perspective).

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TL:DR

Does anyone expect the D800S to be any more than a slight speed high ISO increase at a higher cost? Expected dates? I know no one knows for certain but some ed4ucated guesses are welcome.

How do people cope with a D800 for wildlife when they can't afford a 500mm f/4.0? Is is really just better sticking to crop?

I will likely buy form BH photo video. They have a deluxe kit for an extra $100. Normally I avoid these, but I would need the 2 additional batteries (3rd party is fine), I would like the wireless remote for landscape work, the velbon v-grip is of some use to me and seems OK for money. Other bits and pieces are not so important but would add a little value to me. Seems for my uses to be over $100 value in total. Anyone experience with the BHPV deluxe kit?

Thanks for the time, sorry for long, boring post! This is a lot of money for me. I can easily afford it but I just don't like spending big money on toys!

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user_name
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In reply to larrywilson, 6 months ago

Nice shot!

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TQGroup
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Re: Rent a camera
In reply to M Lammerse, 6 months ago

Are you sure you need a D800 or do you just want it? If you want it just but it now.

If you compare the performance of your existing lenses at DxOMark on the D800 and D610 sensors, you will see very little difference! If you compare the performance of the D610 and D800 sensors at the same site, again there is little difference in performance.

I chose the D600 when my friends went for D800s... on the media we display (4K UHD TV = 8MPX and 36x24 inch prints) there is no discernible difference visible when the two cameras are shot side by side with the same glass. Their only significant advantage is they can crop more and still retain very high quality.

Kindly note that the pro Nikon D4S only has 16 MPX... now, how can those fulltime "pros" get away with such a "poor" sensor compared to the 36 MPX D800?   Very nicely, I suspect!

May I suggest you make your decisions based on issues like AF, frame rates, size, shutter speeds, file sizes, comfort in your hand, etc, etc based on your individual needs.

BTW, if you intend to retain your D7000, you will find that the camera control layout is very similar to the D610 / D600 and awkwardly different from the D800 ... or so my D800 + D7000 owning friends tell me when they fiddle with the wrong buttons "under pressure".

Finally, the 300F4 + TC14eII work great on both cameras in our experience. Of course, big, heavy and expensive "long pro glass" works better but that involves big tripods with fancy heads and, ideally, a porter to carry it all for you!

Good luck with your call!

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RicAllan
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Re: Convince me to buy a D800 (+BHPV question)
In reply to TimStir, 6 months ago

TimStir wrote:

Thing is I am super frugal and also stress about finances and value of items. Back in 2010 I was worrying about buying a D90 and asked to be convinced on Dpreview - I would have lost lots of opportunities if I hadn't made that purchase.

RicAllan wrote:

If you have to be convinced, you shouldn't do it.

Each of us has different needs and pushes different boundaries with our efforts. Only YOU know what you need to tackle yours...

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Ric

Go back to the points I made... what about the event you are anticipating stretches or exceeds what your current camera bodies can do?  Will you e shooting indoors low light or outdoors? Will you be able to get as close as you want? Will you be able to utilize ALL your lenses or have to restrict yourself for one reason or another...  Without answers to these questions (and probably a few more) no one can give you a realistic evaluation.

The one factor I wouldn't worry about is "as of yet unannounced product" UNLESS there's an aspect of your shooting it would not handle.  I have/use a D800E but because of what "I" shoot also have a D4s...

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bestzoom
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Re: Convince me to buy a D800 (+BHPV question)
In reply to TimStir, 6 months ago

Personally i think this is the best camera on the market that money can buy!

After all, it is your hard earned cash. I probably wouldn't even ask the question for others to justify or convince your purchase.

I went from M8 to K5 and recently to D800E. It took a number of years between each upgrade. I cannot see myself any need for an upgrade for a few more years. It is an awesome machine and i wish i have purchased it earlier.

AF on D800 may not be as swift as D4S when you shoot your kid riding a fast bike. That will not be a problem at least for a few more years.

All the best!

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TimStir
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Re: Convince me to buy a D800 (+BHPV question)
In reply to RicAllan, 6 months ago

There isn't anything in particular that my current setup wont handle but there are a few featires that will help:

1) Better metering

2) Better focusing

3) Better low light/ noise. I prefer natural light although do use a flash when required.

4) The higher resolution does allow some cropping advantages.

5) the shallower DoF will make the 24-70mm become a better work horse for me when I want shallow DoF.  I use 35/50/85m primes at f/1.8 which is fine for my work on crop - but the 24-70mm on FF gives me the same DoF in a convenient zoom.

6) My D90 is kind of flake and although the D7000 is going to be the main camera I would like a 100% dependable backup (or 2 backups as it were).

But really, the event is just kind of an excuse, cherry on the cake. I want a D800 for my hobby, if I buy a D800 it is better to have it for this first event than wait even longer.

RicAllan wrote:

TimStir wrote:

Thing is I am super frugal and also stress about finances and value of items. Back in 2010 I was worrying about buying a D90 and asked to be convinced on Dpreview - I would have lost lots of opportunities if I hadn't made that purchase.

RicAllan wrote:

If you have to be convinced, you shouldn't do it.

Each of us has different needs and pushes different boundaries with our efforts. Only YOU know what you need to tackle yours...

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Ric

Go back to the points I made... what about the event you are anticipating stretches or exceeds what your current camera bodies can do? Will you e shooting indoors low light or outdoors? Will you be able to get as close as you want? Will you be able to utilize ALL your lenses or have to restrict yourself for one reason or another... Without answers to these questions (and probably a few more) no one can give you a realistic evaluation.

The one factor I wouldn't worry about is "as of yet unannounced product" UNLESS there's an aspect of your shooting it would not handle. I have/use a D800E but because of what "I" shoot also have a D4s...

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Ric

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TimStir
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Re: Rent a camera
In reply to TQGroup, 6 months ago

I don't need a D800, I want it it!

But the D600 doesn't cut it - if I am spending any kind of money I want better focusing, better metering, better body and maintaining the pixel density of the D7000. The D610 is a big step down for wildlife.

DXO lens scores are also  a little tricky to understand. They incorporate the transmission T-stop in their scores so scores can be modulated by camera independent factors. Wide open most lenses wont resolve much more than the D600 but stopped down a little they will. Beyond this it is really the DX crop that is of most interest for wildlife work - I can see plenty more detail in the 16MP D7000 than in my 12MP D90 so the 10.5MP from the D600 is going to be significantly less.

If it wasn't for the desire for a high pixel density for wildlife then the D600 would be more interesting, but it still is not improving focusing or metering beyond the D7000.

TQGroup wrote:

Are you sure you need a D800 or do you just want it? If you want it just but it now.

If you compare the performance of your existing lenses at DxOMark on the D800 and D610 sensors, you will see very little difference! If you compare the performance of the D610 and D800 sensors at the same site, again there is little difference in performance.

I chose the D600 when my friends went for D800s... on the media we display (4K UHD TV = 8MPX and 36x24 inch prints) there is no discernible difference visible when the two cameras are shot side by side with the same glass. Their only significant advantage is they can crop more and still retain very high quality.

Kindly note that the pro Nikon D4S only has 16 MPX... now, how can those fulltime "pros" get away with such a "poor" sensor compared to the 36 MPX D800? Very nicely, I suspect!

May I suggest you make your decisions based on issues like AF, frame rates, size, shutter speeds, file sizes, comfort in your hand, etc, etc based on your individual needs.

BTW, if you intend to retain your D7000, you will find that the camera control layout is very similar to the D610 / D600 and awkwardly different from the D800 ... or so my D800 + D7000 owning friends tell me when they fiddle with the wrong buttons "under pressure".

Finally, the 300F4 + TC14eII work great on both cameras in our experience. Of course, big, heavy and expensive "long pro glass" works better but that involves big tripods with fancy heads and, ideally, a porter to carry it all for you!

Good luck with your call!

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mactac
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Re: Rent a camera
In reply to M Lammerse, 6 months ago

I left my d800 with 24-70 attached outside in the pouring rain all night by accident.

Worked (and still does) perfectly.

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Leonard Shepherd
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Re: Convince me to buy a D800 (+BHPV question)
In reply to TimStir, 6 months ago

TimStir wrote:

I already hear rumors of a D800S, but I assume this will be fairly minor tweaks and several hundred more $$

Only you can decide on what for you will be a major purchase.

It is the biennial Photokina trade show in Europe in September. In the UK there is extra part exchange on D800/e bodies as there was with D4 before the D4s was announced.

I think it probable there will be new products at Photokina, in the case of the D800/e with minor tweaks (unless you do a lot of video and high ISO shooting) for more UK£/$ and no initial street discount.

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Leonard Shepherd
Producing good quality photographs, or being good at sport or art, involves a little more than buying appropriate equipment. Practice, some learning and perhaps natural talent often play a bigger role than the equipment in your hands.

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TQGroup
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Re: Rent a camera
In reply to TimStir, 6 months ago

TimStir wrote:

I don't need a D800, I want it it!

But the D600 doesn't cut it - if I am spending any kind of money I want better focusing, better metering, better body and maintaining the pixel density of the D7000. The D610 is a big step down for wildlife.

DXO lens scores are also a little tricky to understand. They incorporate the transmission T-stop in their scores so scores can be modulated by camera independent factors. Wide open most lenses wont resolve much more than the D600 but stopped down a little they will. Beyond this it is really the DX crop that is of most interest for wildlife work - I can see plenty more detail in the 16MP D7000 than in my 12MP D90 so the 10.5MP from the D600 is going to be significantly less.

If it wasn't for the desire for a high pixel density for wildlife then the D600 would be more interesting, but it still is not improving focusing or metering beyond the D7000.

Thanks for the comprehensive response.

If you want the D800, just buy it... you already have "emotionally"

For mine, I went with the D600 and the D7100 for around the same money as a D800... so my "crop mode" is a mere 24 MPX on the D7100.How does that compare to the D800?

The AF is just fine and the burst rate is 6 frames per second. The D800 cannot match that IMHO... especially if I add in the fact that there is a 1.9X (1.5 DX x 1.3 CF = 1.95 X over FX ) effective crop factor capability in the D7100 at 15 MPX! When you compare that to the full pro D4S 16 MPX it doesn't look too shabby.

Further, the D7100 is easily the "cheapest" way to get high quality "extra reach". For example, it converted my 300 F4 into a 450 F4 for around a grand... and without the extra size and weight penalty of a "big prime"... and the cost!  And that becomes a F4 570mm when the D7100 is in 15 MPX crop mode!

Not to mention the advantages of a "back up" body and a two camera solution in certain circumstances.

As to DxOMark, I don't trust their "special sauce lens review" scores per se either, but I do believe they produce the "best" camera sensor performance information. Therefore the relative performance of the same lenses compared on different sensors is totally valid.

When you buy your new D800, as surely you should, I would like to see some of your work... happy shooting!

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TimStir
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Re: Rent a camera
In reply to TQGroup, 6 months ago

I am tempted by just doing the D610 + D7100 route but the D610 is then missing the metering, focusing and build quality of the D800.

TQGroup wrote:

TimStir wrote:

I don't need a D800, I want it it!

But the D600 doesn't cut it - if I am spending any kind of money I want better focusing, better metering, better body and maintaining the pixel density of the D7000. The D610 is a big step down for wildlife.

DXO lens scores are also a little tricky to understand. They incorporate the transmission T-stop in their scores so scores can be modulated by camera independent factors. Wide open most lenses wont resolve much more than the D600 but stopped down a little they will. Beyond this it is really the DX crop that is of most interest for wildlife work - I can see plenty more detail in the 16MP D7000 than in my 12MP D90 so the 10.5MP from the D600 is going to be significantly less.

If it wasn't for the desire for a high pixel density for wildlife then the D600 would be more interesting, but it still is not improving focusing or metering beyond the D7000.

Thanks for the comprehensive response.

If you want the D800, just buy it... you already have "emotionally"

For mine, I went with the D600 and the D7100 for around the same money as a D800... so my "crop mode" is a mere 24 MPX on the D7100.How does that compare to the D800?

The AF is just fine and the burst rate is 6 frames per second. The D800 cannot match that IMHO... especially if I add in the fact that there is a 1.9X (1.5 DX x 1.3 CF = 1.95 X over FX ) effective crop factor capability in the D7100 at 15 MPX! When you compare that to the full pro D4S 16 MPX it doesn't look too shabby.

Further, the D7100 is easily the "cheapest" way to get high quality "extra reach". For example, it converted my 300 F4 into a 450 F4 for around a grand... and without the extra size and weight penalty of a "big prime"... and the cost! And that becomes a F4 570mm when the D7100 is in 15 MPX crop mode!

Not to mention the advantages of a "back up" body and a two camera solution in certain circumstances.

As to DxOMark, I don't trust their "special sauce lens review" scores per se either, but I do believe they produce the "best" camera sensor performance information. Therefore the relative performance of the same lenses compared on different sensors is totally valid.

When you buy your new D800, as surely you should, I would like to see some of your work... happy shooting!

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TimStir
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Re: Convince me to buy a D800 (+BHPV question)
In reply to Leonard Shepherd, 6 months ago

That is what I am thinking.I'm pretty sure of a Photkoina announcement but I don't think the improvements are deal breaks to me and I am positive the cost will be higher. e.g. $3500

Leonard Shepherd wrote:

TimStir wrote:

I already hear rumors of a D800S, but I assume this will be fairly minor tweaks and several hundred more $$

Only you can decide on what for you will be a major purchase.

It is the biennial Photokina trade show in Europe in September. In the UK there is extra part exchange on D800/e bodies as there was with D4 before the D4s was announced.

I think it probable there will be new products at Photokina, in the case of the D800/e with minor tweaks (unless you do a lot of video and high ISO shooting) for more UK£/$ and no initial street discount.

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Leonard Shepherd
Producing good quality photographs, or being good at sport or art, involves a little more than buying appropriate equipment. Practice, some learning and perhaps natural talent often play a bigger role than the equipment in your hands.

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RicAllan
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Re: Convince me to buy a D800 (+BHPV question)
In reply to TimStir, 6 months ago

TimStir wrote:

There isn't anything in particular that my current setup wont handle but there are a few featires that will help:

1) Better metering

2) Better focusing

3) Better low light/ noise. I prefer natural light although do use a flash when required.

4) The higher resolution does allow some cropping advantages.

5) the shallower DoF will make the 24-70mm become a better work horse for me when I want shallow DoF. I use 35/50/85m primes at f/1.8 which is fine for my work on crop - but the 24-70mm on FF gives me the same DoF in a convenient zoom.

6) My D90 is kind of flake and although the D7000 is going to be the main camera I would like a 100% dependable backup (or 2 backups as it were).

But really, the event is just kind of an excuse, cherry on the cake. I want a D800 for my hobby, if I buy a D800 it is better to have it for this first event than wait even longer.

RicAllan wrote:

TimStir wrote:

Thing is I am super frugal and also stress about finances and value of items. Back in 2010 I was worrying about buying a D90 and asked to be convinced on Dpreview - I would have lost lots of opportunities if I hadn't made that purchase.

RicAllan wrote:

If you have to be convinced, you shouldn't do it.

Each of us has different needs and pushes different boundaries with our efforts. Only YOU know what you need to tackle yours...

-- hide signature --

Ric

Go back to the points I made... what about the event you are anticipating stretches or exceeds what your current camera bodies can do? Will you e shooting indoors low light or outdoors? Will you be able to get as close as you want? Will you be able to utilize ALL your lenses or have to restrict yourself for one reason or another... Without answers to these questions (and probably a few more) no one can give you a realistic evaluation.

The one factor I wouldn't worry about is "as of yet unannounced product" UNLESS there's an aspect of your shooting it would not handle. I have/use a D800E but because of what "I" shoot also have a D4s...

-- hide signature --

Ric

I'd say go for it...  I'm not in the least unhappy with having gotten one though for the leading edge of what I shoot.. I got a D4s (as well).

One thing you would do well to study and understand... the DX sensors DO NOT give you a different DOF. DOF is dependent upon ONLY four things... Aperture, Distance to subject, size of reproduction, and viewing distance (not even focal length except indirectly as it impacts your working distance). DX and FX sensor shots differ because we end up at different working distances (not as prevalent when using zooms) and how we reproduce final object to be viewed.

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Ric

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TimStir
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Re: Convince me to buy a D800 (+BHPV question)
In reply to TimStir, 5 months ago

Thank you everyone for your input. i know my argumentation may not have made much sense and it seemed pointless for me to make this thread since I always argued against those dissuading me but it helped me confirm that I do want the D800.

The arguments against mostly seemed to be about finances and business practices, or getting the D600 instead. I explained that my finances are actually fine (my wife and I each are very fortunate to earn 6 figure salaries, we aren't struggling to make ends meet, i'm just super frugal). I am not trying to run a successful photography business yet - but I have set up a mini goal to pay back the D800 within 12 months from commercial work (half of that will come form old ms sales that I don't bother with any more)

The D600 wouldn't cut it, I want the better focusing and metering.

The D7100 might have worked out better for much of my wildlife work but the way I figure it in a couple of eyars time the D7100 will be way cheaper and there will be better crop camera out there. The D800 on the other hand will be had to age. I doubt I will ever need more than 36MP when shooting FF and high ISO performance is unlikely to change radically in the next few years.

So earlier today I sent my order into BH!

quick question, what CF cards are people using?

This site: http://www.digitalcameraworld.com/2013/03/10/best-memory-cards-6-top-models-tested-and-rated/

reccomends a Kingston ultimate but many other sites are claiming this doesn't work with the D800?

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