Posterization

Started 6 months ago | Discussions
Sergey_Green
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Posterization
6 months ago

Hi all,

Does anyone see posterization effect in this image (left of the flower, about half way down gradient). Sometimes I start noticing it when I do something to the image, with this particular image I see it in the CaptureNX already, before I even save it.

I wonder, does this have to do with the monitor's gamut limitation, color profile, or something else. If many of you do not see it, then it is my local hardware related issue (perhaps I need a newer monitor).  Else .. I would not even know.

Thanks

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jean bernier
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Re: Posterization
In reply to Sergey_Green, 6 months ago

Was this captured in RAW ? I assume yes, since you use NX2

Did you use adjustments, or is this a straight conversion ? posting a picture here shows the posterization, no surprise, when you drop from 12 or 14 bits to jpg 8 bits......yes I see it, but it is mild. I've seen mild posterization of my own pictures disappear once printed.

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Sergey_Green
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In reply to jean bernier, 6 months ago

jean bernier wrote:

Was this captured in RAW ? I assume yes, since you use NX2

Yes, it is a RAW file.

Did you use adjustments, or is this a straight conversion ?

I only opened it, and I already see it.

posting a picture here shows the posterization, no surprise, when you drop from 12 or 14 bits to jpg 8 bits......yes I see it, but it is mild.

Not a good news. Could hardware affect conversion you think? I mean, if I see it by merely opening the file, then so it will be saved.

I've seen mild posterization of my own pictures disappear once printed.

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hendrikm2
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Re: Thx
In reply to Sergey_Green, 6 months ago

Sergey_Green wrote:

Not a good news. Could hardware affect conversion you think? I mean, if I see it by merely opening the file, then so it will be saved.
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The most probable culprit is your monitor or your monitor profile.
Hardware won´t affect the data of your image, but the data which is shown to you. So you are save, just opening and saving a file won´t change anything*

* Before the nitpickers chime in:Yes, I´m aware that a jpg would be changed and mybe even a nef file, but this is unrelated to the hardware of a computer, which is the posters fear

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Sergey_Green
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Re: Thx
In reply to hendrikm2, 6 months ago

hendrikm2 wrote:

The most probable culprit is your monitor or your monitor profile.

So that means you do not see that rough gradient I am looking at? Only those who have deficient monitors are able to see it?

Hardware won´t affect the data of your image, but the data which is shown to you. So you are save, just opening and saving a file won´t change anything*

* Before the nitpickers chime in:Yes, I´m aware that a jpg would be changed and mybe even a nef file, but this is unrelated to the hardware of a computer, which is the posters fear

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michaeladawson
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Re: Thx
In reply to Sergey_Green, 6 months ago

Sergey_Green wrote:

hendrikm2 wrote:

The most probable culprit is your monitor or your monitor profile.

So that means you do not see that rough gradient I am looking at? Only those who have deficient monitors are able to see it?

Yes, I see it in the jpg you posted here.  But that is not a good test since the photo has already been processed by CNX2 in order to save the jpg.

Since I can see it in the jpg there is some issue with the way it is being processed in CNX2.  It could be improper profile conversion but that is a guess.  I suspect those green colors are out of gamut for the profile and that is causing posterization.  But that too is a guess.  Your monitor and associated monitor profile may still be an issue for your own viewing of the image but it shouldn't affect the jpeg you post.

Best thing would be for you to post a RAW file so others can take a look.

Hardware won´t affect the data of your image, but the data which is shown to you. So you are save, just opening and saving a file won´t change anything*

* Before the nitpickers chime in:Yes, I´m aware that a jpg would be changed and mybe even a nef file, but this is unrelated to the hardware of a computer, which is the posters fear

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Mike Dawson

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Sergey_Green
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Thanks Mike
In reply to michaeladawson, 6 months ago

michaeladawson wrote:


Best thing would be for you to post a RAW file so others can take a look.

It is almost 40MB, where could I post it?

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michaeladawson
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Re: Thanks Mike
In reply to Sergey_Green, 6 months ago

Sergey_Green wrote:

michaeladawson wrote:

Best thing would be for you to post a RAW file so others can take a look.

It is almost 40MB, where could I post it?

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The easiest thing is to use Dropbox.  You put the file out there and then share a link to it.

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Sergey_Green
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Re: Thanks Mike
In reply to michaeladawson, 6 months ago

michaeladawson wrote:

Sergey_Green wrote:

michaeladawson wrote:

Best thing would be for you to post a RAW file so others can take a look.

It is almost 40MB, where could I post it?

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The easiest thing is to use Dropbox. You put the file out there and then share a link to it.

Ok, I think this is it,

https://www.dropbox.com/s/emkc0gw6uzhhalx/DSC_0858.NEF

Thanks Mike,

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LMCasey
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Re: Posterization
In reply to Sergey_Green, 6 months ago

No, I don't see it.

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Sergey_Green
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Really?
In reply to LMCasey, 6 months ago

LMCasey wrote:

No, I don't see it.

So you have good (I mean better) monitor / hardware? I wonder what it is that makes me see it.

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michaeladawson
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Re: Thanks Mike
In reply to Sergey_Green, 6 months ago

Sergey_Green wrote:

michaeladawson wrote:

Sergey_Green wrote:

michaeladawson wrote:

Best thing would be for you to post a RAW file so others can take a look.

It is almost 40MB, where could I post it?

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The easiest thing is to use Dropbox. You put the file out there and then share a link to it.

Ok, I think this is it,

https://www.dropbox.com/s/emkc0gw6uzhhalx/DSC_0858.NEF

Thanks Mike,

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OK, I opened up your raw file using both CNX2 and with Photoshop CC. I did not really see any posterization with either editor when first opened.

In Photoshop I played around just a little bit with large exposure changes and you can force posterization of those dark green shadow areas.  But that required me to do large histogram moves.  I have uploaded both of the jpg files to my Dropbox area.

Here is the CNX2 version. Opened in CNX2 with zero adjustments. Then moved to Adobe Photoshop where it was converted to sRGB, 8 bits, and saved as a quality 12 jpg.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10447490/DSC_0858_CNX2.jpg

Here is the Photoshop CC version. Opened in ACR using the Camera Neutral profile. Neutral (linear) tone curve, no sharpening or noise reduction. Inside PS converted to sRGB, 8 bits, saved as quality 12 jpg.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10447490/DSC_0858_Photoshop.jpg

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InTheMist
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I see it
In reply to Sergey_Green, 6 months ago

I do see it, but only when small on the screen.  When I zoom, it's gone.

It could also be because my iMac (calibrated) really only does sRGB well.

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Simon Garrett
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Re: Really?
In reply to Sergey_Green, 6 months ago

Sergey_Green wrote:

LMCasey wrote:

No, I don't see it.

So you have good (I mean better) monitor / hardware? I wonder what it is that makes me see it.

Is your monitor calibrated/profiled (e.g. with a ColorMunki, Spyder etc)?

If not, I recommend you do so.  I use ColorMunki Display because it came out best in the reviews I read of cheaper colorimiter.

If so, try recalibrating.  A poor calibration can result in posterisation.

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JJ10
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Re: I see it
In reply to InTheMist, 6 months ago

I got the same results as Mike, only showed up after strong manipulation in NX2.

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clarnibass
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Re: Posterization
In reply to Sergey_Green, 6 months ago

If I look at the small photo in the actual post, it is barely there, almost impossible to see. I doubt I would notice unless you told me.
If I click on the photo and look at it full screen in the DPR viewer, it is more or less the same, just barely there.
If I click on 1:1 100% in the DPR viewer, it's still the same, barely there.
If I click to view the original, where DPR will open the file in a new tab, as opposed to show it in its viewer, then look at it full screen, it is much more obvious.
If then I enlarge to look at the 100% size photo in the new tab, it is even more obvious.

Obviously the DPR viewer does something that makes this less obvious. I've seen and posted before about how the DPR viewer changed photos in some ways, generally for the worse. In this case I doubt the new tab photo is worse, causing the issue. I am guessing that whatever the DPR viewer does to change photos for the wosre in this case also happens to remove some of this issue.

I also downloaded the NEF and there is no issue there at all.

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Jack Hogan
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Re: Posterization
In reply to Sergey_Green, 6 months ago

Sergey_Green wrote:

Hi all,

Does anyone see posterization effect in this image (left of the flower, about half way down gradient). Sometimes I start noticing it when I do something to the image, with this particular image I see it in the CaptureNX already, before I even save it.

I don't see it in the NEF (both sRGB and aRGB in CNX2, calibrated/profiled U2410).

I see what could be posterization (possibly due to Jpeg artifacts?) on the Jpeg you posted in Chrome.

Jack

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Sergey_Green
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Re: Thanks Mike
In reply to michaeladawson, 6 months ago

michaeladawson wrote:

OK, I opened up your raw file using both CNX2 and with Photoshop CC. I did not really see any posterization with either editor when first opened.

In Photoshop I played around just a little bit with large exposure changes and you can force posterization of those dark green shadow areas. But that required me to do large histogram moves. I have uploaded both of the jpg files to my Dropbox area.

Here is the CNX2 version. Opened in CNX2 with zero adjustments. Then moved to Adobe Photoshop where it was converted to sRGB, 8 bits, and saved as a quality 12 jpg.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10447490/DSC_0858_CNX2.jpg

Here is the Photoshop CC version. Opened in ACR using the Camera Neutral profile. Neutral (linear) tone curve, no sharpening or noise reduction. Inside PS converted to sRGB, 8 bits, saved as quality 12 jpg.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10447490/DSC_0858_Photoshop.jpg

I will look at those once I get home. I just opened NEF on my work computer and I see gradient looks rather smooth.

So this is only the monitor I should be singling out for now?

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Sergey_Green
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Thank Jack
In reply to Jack Hogan, 6 months ago

Jack Hogan wrote:

Sergey_Green wrote:

Hi all,

Does anyone see posterization effect in this image (left of the flower, about half way down gradient). Sometimes I start noticing it when I do something to the image, with this particular image I see it in the CaptureNX already, before I even save it.

I don't see it in the NEF (both sRGB and aRGB in CNX2, calibrated/profiled U2410).

I see what could be posterization (possibly due to Jpeg artifacts?) on the Jpeg you posted in Chrome.

It is possible. My first thought was if these were the files the camera produces.

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Sergey_Green
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thx
In reply to clarnibass, 6 months ago

clarnibass wrote:

If I look at the small photo in the actual post, it is barely there, almost impossible to see. I doubt I would notice unless you told me.
If I click on the photo and look at it full screen in the DPR viewer, it is more or less the same, just barely there.
If I click on 1:1 100% in the DPR viewer, it's still the same, barely there.
If I click to view the original, where DPR will open the file in a new tab, as opposed to show it in its viewer, then look at it full screen, it is much more obvious.
If then I enlarge to look at the 100% size photo in the new tab, it is even more obvious.

Obviously the DPR viewer does something that makes this less obvious. I've seen and posted before about how the DPR viewer changed photos in some ways, generally for the worse. In this case I doubt the new tab photo is worse, causing the issue. I am guessing that whatever the DPR viewer does to change photos for the wosre in this case also happens to remove some of this issue.

This is something different, I have been seeing this also. What bothers me the most is the limitation in producing smooth gradients regardless of the viewer. I have several of those frames from winter, where the moment I darken the sky (just barely) I start seeing the gradients breaking down. It's like there is no way around it.

I also downloaded the NEF and there is no issue there at all.

I wonder if different image editors will produce different results in that area. Like PS vs LR, or some other RAW processors. Have you tried to save it to TIFF, see what happens?

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