why does the E-M1's video get dissed?

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William Porter
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why does the E-M1's video get dissed?
4 months ago

Need some help from you video mavens.

I gather that the consensus is that Panasonic's recent bodies do video "better" than Olympus's. To put it more the way that interests me, I gather that the view of the cognoscenti is that the E-M1's video is not one of the otherwise excellent camera's strong points.

Why not?

What doesn't the E-M1 do that some recent Panasonic camera can do? And who does this matter to?

Thanks,

Will

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Lab D
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It shouldn't....read this
In reply to William Porter, 4 months ago

http://www.eoshd.com/content/12010/olympus-om-d-e-m1-review

The bit rate is pretty bad meaning any large amount of movement on the screen and the image breaks up, and there is no 24P mode for get a film-like look and no 60P for action, but most don't need those.

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s_grins
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Re: why does the E-M1's video get dissed?
In reply to William Porter, 4 months ago

William Porter wrote:

Need some help from you video mavens.

I gather that the consensus is that Panasonic's recent bodies do video "better" than Olympus's. To put it more the way that interests me, I gather that the view of the cognoscenti is that the E-M1's video is not one of the otherwise excellent camera's strong points.

Why not?

What doesn't the E-M1 do that some recent Panasonic camera can do? And who does this matter to?

Thanks,

Will

Forum contributor amtberg once spoke out a suggestion that IBIS does not allow to connect to sensor heat sink. A guess you know that sensors produce lots of heat, and while taking movie, this heat can't be dissipated naturally.

I would not mention somebody's educated guess without agreeing entirely.

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Camera in bag tends to stay in bag...

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rolleiman
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Re: why does the E-M1's video get dissed?
In reply to s_grins, 4 months ago

s_grins wrote:

William Porter wrote:

Need some help from you video mavens.

I gather that the consensus is that Panasonic's recent bodies do video "better" than Olympus's. To put it more the way that interests me, I gather that the view of the cognoscenti is that the E-M1's video is not one of the otherwise excellent camera's strong points.

Why not?

What doesn't the E-M1 do that some recent Panasonic camera can do? And who does this matter to?

Thanks,

Will

Forum contributor amtberg once spoke out a suggestion that IBIS does not allow to connect to sensor heat sink. A guess you know that sensors produce lots of heat, and while taking movie, this heat can't be dissipated naturally.

I would not mention somebody's educated guess without agreeing entirely.

-- hide signature --

Camera in bag tends to stay in bag...

Maybe so, but I have done video for two hours straight with a Sony SLT [A57] which has IBIS and no overheat problems or noise problems - shooting 3200 ISO. I think that with on sensor analog to digital conversion the heat generated is greatly reduced. I suspect that Oly just hasn't concentrated on getting their video to a competitive level. The sensor probably isn't the limitation.

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s_grins
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Re: why does the E-M1's video get dissed?
In reply to rolleiman, 4 months ago

rolleiman wrote:

s_grins wrote:

William Porter wrote:

Need some help from you video mavens.

I gather that the consensus is that Panasonic's recent bodies do video "better" than Olympus's. To put it more the way that interests me, I gather that the view of the cognoscenti is that the E-M1's video is not one of the otherwise excellent camera's strong points.

Why not?

What doesn't the E-M1 do that some recent Panasonic camera can do? And who does this matter to?

Thanks,

Will

Forum contributor amtberg once spoke out a suggestion that IBIS does not allow to connect to sensor heat sink. A guess you know that sensors produce lots of heat, and while taking movie, this heat can't be dissipated naturally.

I would not mention somebody's educated guess without agreeing entirely.

-- hide signature --

Camera in bag tends to stay in bag...

Maybe so, but I have done video for two hours straight with a Sony SLT [A57] which has IBIS and no overheat problems or noise problems - shooting 3200 ISO. I think that with on sensor analog to digital conversion the heat generated is greatly reduced. I suspect that Oly just hasn't concentrated on getting their video to a competitive level. The sensor probably isn't the limitation.

SONY A57 has IBIS that differs from E-M1 IBIS. I think that this difference deems impossible to implement heat sink on E-M1.

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Camera in bag tends to stay in bag...

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maxotics
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Re: why does the E-M1's video get dissed?
In reply to William Porter, 4 months ago

As lab D says, the biggest complaint is lack of 24p.  At 30p, I doubt most could tell the difference between cameras.  I doubt I could.  Panasonic probably has a better CODEC, the software the camera uses to compress the image (some are better than others).  Because Panasonic makes a lot of professional video equipment I believe that knowledge carries over into their consumer line, where they don't have a strong "stills" camera edge.  Panasonic cameras also have a lot of configuration choices geared to the videographer.  Interestingly, only Olympus has in-camera stabilization for video at the moment.  That's not to be sneezed at  In fact, some would rather have that than 24p.

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duartix
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Re: why does the E-M1's video get dissed?
In reply to William Porter, 4 months ago

William Porter wrote:

Cheers Will!

Need some help from you video mavens.

What doesn't the E-M1 do that some recent Panasonic camera can do? And who does this matter to?

Let me just count the ways...

  1. Sensor readout. Panasonic bins pixels, Olympus skips lines. In the end there must be a ~2EV signal to noise advantage by Panasonic, not to mention ~30% better resolution/sharpness.
  2. Frame rates. Panasonic supports 24p, 25p, 30p, 50p and 60p (plus some esoteric overcranking modes in the GH models). Olympus is limited to 30p. The shot really hits the Oly fan (accidental pun) when you are filming inside and the video frame rate doesn't marry the lighting.
  3. Codec.Not only Panasonic is typically using higher bitrates (can't exactly figure the numbers though) but they use a higher h.264 profile (5.0) which means their encoder is using more advanced features and thus getting even more IQ for the bitrate they use.
  4. Peaking & Zebras. This I can't be sure but I believe I've read around that Panasonics have a lot more customization room for both these modes than Olympus (which I suspect doesn't even feature a zebra mode).
  5. Audio monitoring. Another one I'm not familiar on the Olympus, but I believe you have no way to do audio monitoring in-camera, while you have a stereo audio levels graph displayed on the Pannys.

Now this isn't just a Panasonic party:

  1. Stabilization. Olympus IBIS will effectively stabilize every lens that can be mounted on the camera. This is a serious advantage when you can't afford equivalent stabilized lenses, when the lenses in question aren't just stabilized to begin with and when you don't want to be bothered or just can't have the option to use a stabilization rig. Pro's will rebate that argument because they have the camera on a tripod 80% of the time, but I believe it's Olympus only clear and solid win in the video game.
  2. Focus. Kind of a tie. Even though focus is already at a high level on most Panasonics (the GH4 is reported to excel at this) the E-M1 has on-sensor phase detection and this might give it some edge in some kind of situations (like sports). Pro's will rebate that argument because they'll focus manually 95% of the time (and that's why peaking might switch the tables).

Unknown variable:

  1. Rolling shutter. I just don't know how each brand's sensor is placed in this field, however I know that Panasonic has doubled the readout speed (and thus cut RS in half) in their latest batch of sensors (GX7 and forward I believe, even though I might be wrong). Yet this might be a minor detail because you really need to be panning like mad to feel the effect, and if you are panning like mad, the chances are your video will be have bigger problems than RS.

For these reasons, especially 1,2 &3 (for Panasonic) I believe it's really a no brainer if you have a minor interest in video, since the Olympus advantages can always be dealt with through additional hardware if the demand is justifiable.

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JYPfoto
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Re: why does the E-M1's video get dissed?
In reply to maxotics, 4 months ago

maxotics wrote:

As lab D says, the biggest complaint is lack of 24p. At 30p, I doubt most could tell the difference between cameras. I doubt I could. Panasonic probably has a better CODEC, the software the camera uses to compress the image (some are better than others). Because Panasonic makes a lot of professional video equipment I believe that knowledge carries over into their consumer line, where they don't have a strong "stills" camera edge. Panasonic cameras also have a lot of configuration choices geared to the videographer. Interestingly, only Olympus has in-camera stabilization for video at the moment. That's not to be sneezed at In fact, some would rather have that than 24p.

Any advantage of IBIS is taken away with the use of a tripod or a lens with OIS.

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ApertureAcolyte
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Re: why does the E-M1's video get dissed?
In reply to JYPfoto, 4 months ago

JYPfoto wrote:

maxotics wrote:

As lab D says, the biggest complaint is lack of 24p. At 30p, I doubt most could tell the difference between cameras. I doubt I could. Panasonic probably has a better CODEC, the software the camera uses to compress the image (some are better than others). Because Panasonic makes a lot of professional video equipment I believe that knowledge carries over into their consumer line, where they don't have a strong "stills" camera edge. Panasonic cameras also have a lot of configuration choices geared to the videographer. Interestingly, only Olympus has in-camera stabilization for video at the moment. That's not to be sneezed at In fact, some would rather have that than 24p.

Any advantage of IBIS is taken away with the use of a tripod or a lens with OIS.

No.

A tripod is weight and the camera must be static

OIS requires an OIS lens.

Most m43 primes and good cine lenses do not have OIS

The advantage of IBIS is not "taken away"

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Dave Sanders
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The E-M1 is excellent for casual videos
In reply to William Porter, 4 months ago

William Porter wrote:

Why not?

What doesn't the E-M1 do that some recent Panasonic camera can do? And who does this matter to?

I'm really, really not a video guy. I know next to nothing about the subject so keep that in mind. So, as not-a-video-guy, I've really started to use my E-M1 to make short videos of my daughter and family at various events. The biggest thing that has prompted me to do this is the IBIS. I really dislike jittery family videos and, having watched a friend who is an AD in the film industry set up a charity commercial shoot, I had no urge to do or learn what was required to get true professional quality video. But the IBIS is like magic for neophytes like me. I really just want acceptable videos and the E-M1 nails that and then some. The zoom/crop feature is great too...I managed to make a decent video of my daughter's birthday party and it was smooth, jitter-free and had nice closeups of all the kids who were invited. Quality was far beyond what was required for my purposes.

I have no doubt that Panasonic is superior in basically every way save IBIS. But for a guy like me, exactly zero of the Panasonic advantages come into play and the one Oly advantage is huge. So there ya go, it's great someone who knows nothing, has little urge to learn and whose final goal is to email a reasonably sized file.  But if you know something about video or are serious about learning more, the GH3/4 are probably the cameras to consider.

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Paulmorgan
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Re: why does the E-M1's video get dissed?
In reply to William Porter, 4 months ago

William Porter wrote:

Need some help from you video mavens.

I gather that the consensus is that Panasonic's recent bodies do video "better" than Olympus's. To put it more the way that interests me, I gather that the view of the cognoscenti is that the E-M1's video is not one of the otherwise excellent camera's strong points.

Why not?

What doesn't the E-M1 do that some recent Panasonic camera can do? And who does this matter to?

Thanks,

Will

In real use these camera`s will be more than good enough.

They have even used Pens to shoot action sequences in feature films without problems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnZjvFbm42w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGXwYvMmxik

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKmuvjL2cVw

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Bhima78
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Re: It shouldn't....read this
In reply to Lab D, 4 months ago

Yeah... I wish the GX7 had IBIS for video. I would have picked it over the EM10.

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3dwag
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Re: It shouldn't....read this
In reply to Lab D, 4 months ago

http://www.eoshd.com/content/12010/olympus-om-d-e-m1-review

The bit rate is pretty bad meaning any large amount of movement on the screen and the image breaks up, and there is no 24P mode for get a film-like look and no 60P for action, but most don't need those.

24P not only for "film-like look" - it's the only way to distribute 1080p on Blu-ray without resorting to some funky scan conversion.

Also, projecting onto a 92" screen I can see digital artifacts when there is a lot of detail and or motion in the shot. The EM-1 is a bit better in that regard than the EM-5, but still noticeable. If only it were possible that a firmware update could enable 24P and a higher data rate on my EM-1... Oh, well - there is always the Pana GH4.

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Ontario Gone
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Re: It shouldn't....read this
In reply to Bhima78, 4 months ago

Bhima78 wrote:

Yeah... I wish the GX7 had IBIS for video. I would have picked it over the EM10.

I shoot a bit of video with my GX7. My first lens was the 20mm F1.7, and shaky video was an issue. Some times. I didn't want to chase my daughter around the yard, camera in hand, but there were many situations i did use it with great results. I ended up buying the 14-42 OIS kit for two reasons, one was to use it with video. It's not the best in super low light of course, but for moderate and good light, it evens things up. If im shooting a black cat at night, i have to be more careful or use a tripod.

I shoot more photos in low light, more video in good light. It's more than worth the tradeoff in order to get higher bit rates, more framerates, and sharper video. To some people, the best IBIS is more important than anything. For me, i get more out of a different approach.

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3dwag
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Re: why does the E-M1's video get dissed?
In reply to rolleiman, 4 months ago

s_grins wrote:

William Porter wrote:

Need some help from you video mavens.

I gather that the consensus is that Panasonic's recent bodies do video "better" than Olympus's. To put it more the way that interests me, I gather that the view of the cognoscenti is that the E-M1's video is not one of the otherwise excellent camera's strong points.

Why not?

What doesn't the E-M1 do that some recent Panasonic camera can do? And who does this matter to?

Thanks,

Will

Forum contributor amtberg once spoke out a suggestion that IBIS does not allow to connect to sensor heat sink. A guess you know that sensors produce lots of heat, and while taking movie, this heat can't be dissipated naturally.

I would not mention somebody's educated guess without agreeing entirely.

-- hide signature --

Camera in bag tends to stay in bag...

Maybe so, but I have done video for two hours straight with a Sony SLT [A57] which has IBIS and no overheat problems or noise problems - shooting 3200 ISO. I think that with on sensor analog to digital conversion the heat generated is greatly reduced. I suspect that Oly just hasn't concentrated on getting their video to a competitive level. The sensor probably isn't the limitation.

Perhaps the EM-1/ 5 IBIS is a limitation for 1080p60 with the current sensor due to heatsinking concerns, but would not limit going to 1080p24 (and 1080p25).

The data rate would be limited at some point by the camera's codec/ processor speed/ resources. Still, at least 1080p24 at the same data rate would yield ~20% gain in data density/ frame compared to 1080p30.

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Alan Lai
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Re: why does the E-M1's video get dissed?
In reply to William Porter, 4 months ago

The same reason Panasonic's still get dissed.

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Dheorl
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Re: why does the E-M1's video get dissed?
In reply to William Porter, 4 months ago

William Porter wrote:

Need some help from you video mavens.

I gather that the consensus is that Panasonic's recent bodies do video "better" than Olympus's. To put it more the way that interests me, I gather that the view of the cognoscenti is that the E-M1's video is not one of the otherwise excellent camera's strong points.

Why not?

What doesn't the E-M1 do that some recent Panasonic camera can do? And who does this matter to?

Thanks,

Will

I think the main drawback with the most effect is the frame rates. Although the codec is noticeable in some situations the frame rate can stop you doing things almost completely. No smooth slow mo, no indoor shooting in a lot of the world, no worldwide standard "filmic" framerate.

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Alan Lai
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Re: why does the E-M1's video get dissed?
In reply to duartix, 4 months ago

For Rolling shutter, it affects all fast moving object such as race cars, not just only about panning the camera like mad.

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Anders W
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Re: why does the E-M1's video get dissed?
In reply to duartix, 4 months ago

duartix wrote:

William Porter wrote:

Cheers Will!

Need some help from you video mavens.

What doesn't the E-M1 do that some recent Panasonic camera can do? And who does this matter to?

Let me just count the ways...

Excellent summary. Many thanks for spelling it out so clearly. I am hardly shooting any video at all but it's good to have a summary of the various pros and cons anyway.

A couple of comments about specific things below.

  1. Sensor readout. Panasonic bins pixels, Olympus skips lines. In the end there must be a ~2EV signal to noise advantage by Panasonic, not to mention ~30% better resolution/sharpness.
  2. Frame rates. Panasonic supports 24p, 25p, 30p, 50p and 60p (plus some esoteric overcranking modes in the GH models). Olympus is limited to 30p. The shot really hits the Oly fan (accidental pun) when you are filming inside and the video frame rate doesn't marry the lighting.
  3. Codec.Not only Panasonic is typically using higher bitrates (can't exactly figure the numbers though) but they use a higher h.264 profile (5.0) which means their encoder is using more advanced features and thus getting even more IQ for the bitrate they use.
  4. Peaking & Zebras. This I can't be sure but I believe I've read around that Panasonics have a lot more customization room for both these modes than Olympus (which I suspect doesn't even feature a zebra mode).
  5. Audio monitoring. Another one I'm not familiar on the Olympus, but I believe you have no way to do audio monitoring in-camera, while you have a stereo audio levels graph displayed on the Pannys.

Now this isn't just a Panasonic party:

  1. Stabilization. Olympus IBIS will effectively stabilize every lens that can be mounted on the camera. This is a serious advantage when you can't afford equivalent stabilized lenses, when the lenses in question aren't just stabilized to begin with and when you don't want to be bothered or just can't have the option to use a stabilization rig. Pro's will rebate that argument because they have the camera on a tripod 80% of the time, but I believe it's Olympus only clear and solid win in the video game.

Another advantage of the (new) Oly IBIS, apart from offering stabilization even with non-OIS lenses, is that the stabilization is, as far as I can tell, more efficient for video than that provided by Pany OIS lenses. If I understand things correctly, stabilization for video is not quite the same as stabilization for stills. With video, the point is not so much to maximize sharpness within a single frame but to smoothen variations in framing, and as far as I can tell, the (new) Oly IBIS excels in that regard.

  1. Focus. Kind of a tie. Even though focus is already at a high level on most Panasonics (the GH4 is reported to excel at this) the E-M1 has on-sensor phase detection and this might give it some edge in some kind of situations (like sports). Pro's will rebate that argument because they'll focus manually 95% of the time (and that's why peaking might switch the tables).

Another advantage of PDAF (if utilized right by the manufacturer) is that the camera should be able to change focus without the back-and-forth search CDAF employs, and which looks bad when you are forced to watch it. Bit I have no idea whether and how well the E-M1 uses its PDAF for video.

Unknown variable:

  1. Rolling shutter. I just don't know how each brand's sensor is placed in this field, however I know that Panasonic has doubled the readout speed (and thus cut RS in half) in their latest batch of sensors (GX7 and forward I believe, even though I might be wrong). Yet this might be a minor detail because you really need to be panning like mad to feel the effect, and if you are panning like mad, the chances are your video will be have bigger problems than RS.

For these reasons, especially 1,2 &3 (for Panasonic) I believe it's really a no brainer if you have a minor interest in video, since the Olympus advantages can always be dealt with through additional hardware if the demand is justifiable.

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Duarte Bruno

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DouglasG
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Re: why does the E-M1's video get dissed?
In reply to William Porter, 4 months ago

I think many of the Olympus video related problems can be fixed if they allow to the cameras send a clean HDMI output, this and more frame rate options too. Then if you want to make home videos the internal recording is good enough for this, but if do you need to improve the video quality for a more professional work allow to use a external recorder as the Ninja/Star Atomos or Blackmagic Hyperdeck Shuttle, of course you may loose the size convenient and portability of the just the camera, but in professional work almost all the time the camera has some kind of support been tripod or shoulder mount.

Even so, i think that Panasonic has a very large advantage here thanks to many years of video dedicated improvements on the Lumix series.

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