JPEG, Aperture, and Lightroom

Started 7 months ago | Discussions
Identity
Senior MemberPosts: 1,041
Like?
JPEG, Aperture, and Lightroom
7 months ago

There's been some lively discussion recently about the merits of Lightroom for Fuji RAW conversion. Since I shoot JPEG+RAW, and have recently switched from Aperture to Lightroom, I thought I'd post a set of sample images for people to compare for themselves. Normally I would adjust a few things beyond these default conversions but I wanted to show what you get with basically no effort to use as a starting point.

Personally, my favourite of the bunch is the Lightroom RAW conversion with the Provia profile applied. Aperture does a bad job here, as the coat and inside of the hat are actually pink and not red, and the skin tone is not pleasant. I could not get the colours I wanted out of Aperture at all. Aperture generally has a pretty good reputation around these parts, while Lightroom gets criticized often, but I think Lightroom does a commendable job, especially with the latest release.

As usual, use whatever tool works best for you!

OOC JPEG, Provia, Shadows -1, Highlights -1

Aperture default RAW conversion

Lightroom default RAW conversion

Lightroom default RAW conversion with Provia profile

Jim in Hudson
Senior MemberPosts: 1,182Gear list
Like?
Re: JPEG, Aperture, and Lightroom
In reply to Identity, 7 months ago

Identity wrote:

There's been some lively discussion recently about the merits of Lightroom for Fuji RAW conversion. Since I shoot JPEG+RAW, and have recently switched from Aperture to Lightroom, I thought I'd post a set of sample images for people to compare for themselves. Normally I would adjust a few things beyond these default conversions but I wanted to show what you get with basically no effort to use as a starting point.

Personally, my favourite of the bunch is the Lightroom RAW conversion with the Provia profile applied. Aperture does a bad job here, as the coat and inside of the hat are actually pink and not red, and the skin tone is not pleasant. I could not get the colours I wanted out of Aperture at all. Aperture generally has a pretty good reputation around these parts, while Lightroom gets criticized often, but I think Lightroom does a commendable job, especially with the latest release.

As usual, use whatever tool works best for you!

OOC JPEG, Provia, Shadows -1, Highlights -1

Aperture default RAW conversion

Lightroom default RAW conversion

Lightroom default RAW conversion with Provia profile

Thanks for posting. To my eyes, Aperture's rendering is better than Lightroom's default (non-profile) rendering. What would be interesting is whether you could duplicate LR's Provia profile by starting with the LR default and adjusting from there.... then compare to the best you can achieve through Aperture.

 Jim in Hudson's gear list:Jim in Hudson's gear list
Fujifilm X-E1 Pentax K-3 Sigma 10-20mm F4-5.6 EX DC HSM Pentax smc DA 18-135mm F3.5-5.6ED AL [IF] DC WR Pentax smc DA 35mm F2.4 AL +3 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Acrill
Senior MemberPosts: 1,421Gear list
Like?
Re: JPEG, Aperture, and Lightroom
In reply to Identity, 7 months ago

I think that the current main objection to Lightroom has nothing to do with the recent Fuji camera profiles. The colors are good as you demonstrate.

The problem lies in the Lightroom demosaicing of fine detail, especially in green foliage.

 Acrill's gear list:Acrill's gear list
Fujifilm X-T1 Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R Fujifilm XF 14mm F2.8 R
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Identity
Senior MemberPosts: 1,041
Like?
Re: JPEG, Aperture, and Lightroom
In reply to Acrill, 7 months ago

Acrill wrote:

I think that the current main objection to Lightroom has nothing to do with the recent Fuji camera profiles. The colors are good as you demonstrate.

The problem lies in the Lightroom demosaicing of fine detail, especially in green foliage.

Hmm, I haven't found that at all - but I also haven't taken a ton of photos of green foliage recently as the weather has been pretty lousy. So far, I'm very happy with Lightroom's sharpening and find it preferable to Aperture, but I'll try to post some more examples.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Identity
Senior MemberPosts: 1,041
Like?
Re: JPEG, Aperture, and Lightroom
In reply to Jim in Hudson, 7 months ago

Jim in Hudson wrote:

Thanks for posting. To my eyes, Aperture's rendering is better than Lightroom's default (non-profile) rendering. What would be interesting is whether you could duplicate LR's Provia profile by starting with the LR default and adjusting from there.... then compare to the best you can achieve through Aperture.

The colours are way off though - the pinks have turned nearly red, and any attempts at correcting them result in unpleasant changes in skin tones that I haven't been able to work around. Even if I could, it's a lot of work. Some blues also render much deeper (and less realistically) in Aperture. It's been my biggest issue. I also find skin tones render with quite harsh highlights and again, I can often work around it but I find Aperture's starting point to be too far off of what I perceive the original image should be. Lightroom's Fuji film profiles are a godsend in this regard.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Identity
Senior MemberPosts: 1,041
Like?
Re: JPEG, Aperture, and Lightroom
In reply to Identity, 7 months ago

Amazingly, I have no good RAW files with a lot of foliage that's in-focus (I tend to take mostly portraits with shallow DOF) but here's an example where I think Lightroom produces a sharper image than Aperture. I couldn't get the Aperture image any sharper without introducing unwelcome artifacts, and I tried the regular (non-edge) sharpening as well with even less impressive results. The Lightroom image does have a "painterly" look at 100%, but at typical viewing sizes for me, it looks sharp and natural. The moss on the tree does look a bit smudgy in the Lightroom image, and I'll definitely have to get out and shoot some landscapes for my next comparison.

EDIT: The exported Aperture image here is actually significantly sharper than it is when viewed in Aperture itself. I didn't realize that the on-screen preview in Aperture doesn't represent the final level of sharpening when exported. The Lightroom image looks substantially the same here, and in Lightroom itself. Interesting. I'm not going to give a big edge to Lightroom here like I originally thought  

Aperture, default RAW conversion, edge sharpening, intensity 0.8, edges 0.35

Lightroom, default RAW conversion, Provia profile, sharpening at 60

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
slimandy
Forum ProPosts: 14,638Gear list
Like?
Re: JPEG, Aperture, and Lightroom
In reply to Identity, 7 months ago

The Lightroom shots look best here. They are the most natural looking.

I think the complaints have been more to do with fine detail, e.g. in landscapes.

-- hide signature --

www.andrewsandersphotography.co.uk

 slimandy's gear list:slimandy's gear list
Sony RX100 II Nikon D200 Nikon D700 Olympus OM-D E-M5 Fujifilm X-E1 +1 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Edward Chatlos
Senior MemberPosts: 2,695Gear list
Like?
Re: JPEG, Aperture, and Lightroom
In reply to Jim in Hudson, 7 months ago

Jim in Hudson wrote:

Thanks for posting. To my eyes, Aperture's rendering is better than Lightroom's default (non-profile) rendering. What would be interesting is whether you could duplicate LR's Provia profile by starting with the LR default and adjusting from there.... then compare to the best you can achieve through Aperture.

How can you say the Aperture rendering is better than the LR one? The OP stated the colors aren't right.

What are you an Apple Fan Boy? If it's Apple it must do the best job?

 Edward Chatlos's gear list:Edward Chatlos's gear list
Fujifilm X-E2 Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R Fujifilm XF 18-55mm F2.8-4 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 55-200mm F3.5-4.8 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 27mm F2.8 +1 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Edward Chatlos
Senior MemberPosts: 2,695Gear list
Like?
Re: JPEG, Aperture, and Lightroom
In reply to Identity, 7 months ago

Yeah and it seems Aperture isn't reading the lens profile, or something, and there is some vignetting going on.

 Edward Chatlos's gear list:Edward Chatlos's gear list
Fujifilm X-E2 Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R Fujifilm XF 18-55mm F2.8-4 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 55-200mm F3.5-4.8 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 27mm F2.8 +1 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Red Boar
Forum MemberPosts: 55Gear list
Like?
Re: JPEG, Aperture, and Lightroom
In reply to Edward Chatlos, 7 months ago

I'll let others argue about the merits of each program...just wanted to say I love the image. Good job! 

 Red Boar's gear list:Red Boar's gear list
Fujifilm X-E2 Fujifilm XF 55-200mm F3.5-4.8 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 56mm F1.2 R
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Jim in Hudson
Senior MemberPosts: 1,182Gear list
Like?
Re: JPEG, Aperture, and Lightroom
In reply to Edward Chatlos, 7 months ago

Edward Chatlos wrote:

Jim in Hudson wrote:

Thanks for posting. To my eyes, Aperture's rendering is better than Lightroom's default (non-profile) rendering. What would be interesting is whether you could duplicate LR's Provia profile by starting with the LR default and adjusting from there.... then compare to the best you can achieve through Aperture.

How can you say the Aperture rendering is better than the LR one? The OP stated the colors aren't right.

What are you an Apple Fan Boy? If it's Apple it must do the best job?

Nice ad hominem attack but you forgot to ask me when I stopped beating my wife.

My first comment was from viewing on a good IPS monitor (which I trust).  From the crappy LCD/LED one I'm on now (which I don't trust) the Aperture rendering does pick up more of the red shift in the jacket.  More to the point, the Provia profiles, both OOC and in LR, are also creating a shift from pink to red versus the non-profile rendering.

This highlights the fallacies in all of these judgments.  We think we know what looks better than something else but generally we're doing that with poor viewing sources.  I can tell you my other computer hooked to the good IPS monitor displayed a very good rendering from Aperture in the OP's photos.  But does that even matter when the true test is which prints the best?

 Jim in Hudson's gear list:Jim in Hudson's gear list
Fujifilm X-E1 Pentax K-3 Sigma 10-20mm F4-5.6 EX DC HSM Pentax smc DA 18-135mm F3.5-5.6ED AL [IF] DC WR Pentax smc DA 35mm F2.4 AL +3 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Edward Chatlos
Senior MemberPosts: 2,695Gear list
Like?
Re: JPEG, Aperture, and Lightroom
In reply to Jim in Hudson, 7 months ago

Have you stopped that? Most that do never stop.

 Edward Chatlos's gear list:Edward Chatlos's gear list
Fujifilm X-E2 Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R Fujifilm XF 18-55mm F2.8-4 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 55-200mm F3.5-4.8 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 27mm F2.8 +1 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Identity
Senior MemberPosts: 1,041
Like?
Re: JPEG, Aperture, and Lightroom
In reply to Jim in Hudson, 7 months ago

Jim in Hudson wrote:

Edward Chatlos wrote:

Jim in Hudson wrote:

Thanks for posting. To my eyes, Aperture's rendering is better than Lightroom's default (non-profile) rendering. What would be interesting is whether you could duplicate LR's Provia profile by starting with the LR default and adjusting from there.... then compare to the best you can achieve through Aperture.

How can you say the Aperture rendering is better than the LR one? The OP stated the colors aren't right.

What are you an Apple Fan Boy? If it's Apple it must do the best job?

Nice ad hominem attack but you forgot to ask me when I stopped beating my wife.

My first comment was from viewing on a good IPS monitor (which I trust). From the crappy LCD/LED one I'm on now (which I don't trust) the Aperture rendering does pick up more of the red shift in the jacket. More to the point, the Provia profiles, both OOC and in LR, are also creating a shift from pink to red versus the non-profile rendering.

This highlights the fallacies in all of these judgments. We think we know what looks better than something else but generally we're doing that with poor viewing sources. I can tell you my other computer hooked to the good IPS monitor displayed a very good rendering from Aperture in the OP's photos. But does that even matter when the true test is which prints the best?

I'm viewing the photos on a 27" iMac which has, by all accounts, quite a good IPS panel, and I can assure you the Aperture colors are way off. The Provia profile does shift the reds a bit as well, but in a pleasing way with regard to skin tones (in my opinion of course). I would probably use a different profile for landscapes.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
forpetessake
Senior MemberPosts: 3,870
Like?
Re: JPEG, Aperture, and Lightroom
In reply to Identity, 7 months ago

Move the "detail" slider in LR all the way to 0 when sharpening. Otherwise you'll see those swirly artifacts. Also the mask slider needs adjustment to avoid the waxing effect.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
forpetessake
Senior MemberPosts: 3,870
Like?
Re: JPEG, Aperture, and Lightroom
In reply to Identity, 7 months ago

In my experience the LR works fine, definitely better than the camera jpeg engine. I shoot almost always raw as Fuji jpeg output isn't great.

In the LR you need to make some adjustments you usually don't need to do with the other cameras. One thing is necessary to correct the colors, in particular red, orange, yellow, and blue. I don't remember the typical luminance settings I use, I know the red is the most screwed up color and requires something about -50 correction. The colors coming from the raw are much weaker than with the other cameras, so the settings for clarity, saturation, etc. have to be more aggressive. The sharpening also needs different settings than with the other cameras; set 'detail' to zero, reduce 'mask' settings until waxiness gone. Because Fuji is so much different from every other camera I used, I saved a preset for Fuji and apply it to the batch and then tweak each image individually.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
mwellan
New MemberPosts: 19Gear list
Like?
Re: JPEG, Aperture, and Lightroom
In reply to forpetessake, 7 months ago

Please post the "preset".  I would love to try it to reduce "watercoloring"

Thanks

 mwellan's gear list:mwellan's gear list
Fujifilm FinePix X100 Olympus E-M1 Fujifilm X-T1
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
J Frank Parnell
Regular MemberPosts: 177Gear list
Like?
Default settings? Who Cares?
In reply to forpetessake, 7 months ago

What are the results at the default settings supposed to prove? That one or the other has better default settings?

And if everyone agrees that converter X has the best default settings, what if converter Y has better results with 30 seconds of adjustments? And what if converter Z has even better results after 5 minutes of adjustments? Which one is the best converter?

Arguing over which converter has better default settings is ridiculous.

 J Frank Parnell's gear list:J Frank Parnell's gear list
Fujifilm X-T1 Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R Fujifilm XF 18-55mm F2.8-4 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 55-200mm F3.5-4.8 R LM OIS
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Identity
Senior MemberPosts: 1,041
Like?
Re: Default settings? Who Cares?
In reply to J Frank Parnell, 7 months ago

J Frank Parnell wrote:

What are the results at the default settings supposed to prove? That one or the other has better default settings?

And if everyone agrees that converter X has the best default settings, what if converter Y has better results with 30 seconds of adjustments? And what if converter Z has even better results after 5 minutes of adjustments? Which one is the best converter?

Arguing over which converter has better default settings is ridiculous.

I don't think it's invalid to discuss which RAW converter provides the best starting point for further editing. It matters to me (and I'm sure other people), and the fact that it doesn't matter to everyone doesn't make it "ridiculous".

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Identity
Senior MemberPosts: 1,041
Like?
Re: JPEG, Aperture, and Lightroom
In reply to forpetessake, 7 months ago

forpetessake wrote:

Move the "detail" slider in LR all the way to 0 when sharpening. Otherwise you'll see those swirly artifacts. Also the mask slider needs adjustment to avoid the waxing effect.

This is interesting, thanks! It took me months to get really, really comfortable with Aperture, and it's probably going to take just as long with Lightroom, and these kinds of tips are invaluable.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Identity
Senior MemberPosts: 1,041
Like?
Re: JPEG, Aperture, and Lightroom
In reply to Identity, 7 months ago

Ok, foliage from today, with my best attempts at reasonable sharpening.

Aperture

Lightroom

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads