The camera to beat:

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
1prime
Contributing MemberPosts: 994Gear list
Like?
The camera to beat:
8 months ago

I quote from DPR: "The X-T1 is probably Fujifilm's best camera to date, offering a compelling combination of intuitive handling, excellent image quality, and one of best electronic viewfinders we've seen. It also features one of the most impressive autofocus systems on any camera at this price level, both in terms of accuracy with fast lenses and tracking moving subjects. Over all it's a hugely engaging and capable camera, and one that's fundamentally a joy to use."

Ok, Sony, your target has been set up, now take aim and fire!  I'm tired of continually seeing a Fuji product with an 84% rating. By about this time you should be able to muster a competitor APS-C camera that will outscore the X-T1's 84%.  Yes, the well price positioned A6000 is doing well for you with a better than 10% market position.  But I hope you've got an A7000 on your drawing board to overcome the X-T1. I expect your A7K to attend to those pesky details you sometimes say will be fixed on later models. And while you're at it, why don't you fool all of us and bring an A7K in at an attractive price much closer to the A6K than the X-T1? This is your chance to attain an extremely high DPR score and keep us NEX-7ers in your stable.

-- hide signature --

1prime

Fujifilm X-T1 Sony a6000 Sony Alpha 7 Sony Alpha DSLR-A700 Sony Alpha NEX-7
If you believe there are incorrect tags, please send us this post using our feedback form.
blue_skies
Senior MemberPosts: 7,515Gear list
Like?
Re: The camera to beat:
In reply to 1prime, 8 months ago

1prime wrote:

I quote from DPR: "The X-T1 is probably Fujifilm's best camera to date, offering a compelling combination of intuitive handling, excellent image quality, and one of best electronic viewfinders we've seen. It also features one of the most impressive autofocus systems on any camera at this price level, both in terms of accuracy with fast lenses and tracking moving subjects. Over all it's a hugely engaging and capable camera, and one that's fundamentally a joy to use."

Ok, Sony, your target has been set up, now take aim and fire! I'm tired of continually seeing a Fuji product with an 84% rating. By about this time you should be able to muster a competitor APS-C camera that will outscore the X-T1's 84%. Yes, the well price positioned A6000 is doing well for you with a better than 10% market position. But I hope you've got an A7000 on your drawing board to overcome the X-T1. I expect your A7K to attend to those pesky details you sometimes say will be fixed on later models. And while you're at it, why don't you fool all of us and bring an A7K in at an attractive price much closer to the A6K than the X-T1? This is your chance to attain an extremely high DPR score and keep us NEX-7ers in your stable.

-- hide signature --

1prime

I don't know, Don.

  • Fuji X-T1 + 'kit' lens: $1,699
  • Sony A6000 + 'kit' lens: $800

Sure, the X-T1 scores higher, but it should be compared with the A7, not the A6000.

Kudos to Sony for bringing a full-feature top-of-line spec APS-C camera out for $650 (body only).

  • In terms of market share: Sony 1 - Fuji 0
  • In terms of bragging rights: Sony 0 - Fuji 1

Pick your horses...

And there is room between the A6000 and A7 for either/both an A7000 and A6...

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

 blue_skies's gear list:blue_skies's gear list
Canon PowerShot S95 Sony Alpha NEX-7 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sony Alpha 7 Sony a6000 +34 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
1prime
Contributing MemberPosts: 994Gear list
Like?
Re: The camera to beat:
In reply to blue_skies, 8 months ago

blue_skies wrote:

1prime wrote:

I quote from DPR: "The X-T1 is probably Fujifilm's best camera to date, offering a compelling combination of intuitive handling, excellent image quality, and one of best electronic viewfinders we've seen. It also features one of the most impressive autofocus systems on any camera at this price level, both in terms of accuracy with fast lenses and tracking moving subjects. Over all it's a hugely engaging and capable camera, and one that's fundamentally a joy to use."

Ok, Sony, your target has been set up, now take aim and fire! I'm tired of continually seeing a Fuji product with an 84% rating. By about this time you should be able to muster a competitor APS-C camera that will outscore the X-T1's 84%. Yes, the well price positioned A6000 is doing well for you with a better than 10% market position. But I hope you've got an A7000 on your drawing board to overcome the X-T1. I expect your A7K to attend to those pesky details you sometimes say will be fixed on later models. And while you're at it, why don't you fool all of us and bring an A7K in at an attractive price much closer to the A6K than the X-T1? This is your chance to attain an extremely high DPR score and keep us NEX-7ers in your stable.

-- hide signature --

1prime

I don't know, Don.

  • Fuji X-T1 + 'kit' lens: $1,699
  • Sony A6000 + 'kit' lens: $800

Sure, the X-T1 scores higher, but it should be compared with the A7, not the A6000.

Kudos to Sony for bringing a full-feature top-of-line spec APS-C camera out for $650 (body only).

  • In terms of market share: Sony 1 - Fuji 0
  • In terms of bragging rights: Sony 0 - Fuji 1

Pick your horses...

And there is room between the A6000 and A7 for either/both an A7000 and A6...

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

Henry, Thanks for your reply.  I tend to agree with your conclusion that there is room for something along the lines of an A7000 without or with hump.  My point is "wouldn't it be lovely" if Sony achieved the the bragging rights to go along with their increasing market share.  Implicit in this accomplishment would be a solid APS-C camera with all its bells and whistles well fastened.  That is, enhance the room for improvement on the A6000.  And l think Sony can do that at a price between the 2 comparative cameras you mention.  Don

-- hide signature --

1prime

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Petroglyph
Senior MemberPosts: 3,171Gear list
Like?
Re: The camera to beat:
In reply to 1prime, 8 months ago

If I could own them all it (X-T1) would be on my list.  But it's way down there and the 645Z is on that dream list overshadowing everything below.  In practical terms that is a spot on the list I know I'll never get past. 

 Petroglyph's gear list:Petroglyph's gear list
Canon EOS 6D Pentax K-3 Pentax smc DA* 60-250mm F4.0 ED (IF) SDM Sigma 35mm F1.4 DG HSM Canon EF 16-35mm f/4L IS USM
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
blue_skies
Senior MemberPosts: 7,515Gear list
Like?
Re: The camera to beat:
In reply to 1prime, 8 months ago

1prime wrote:

blue_skies wrote:

1prime wrote:

I quote from DPR: "The X-T1 is probably Fujifilm's best camera to date, offering a compelling combination of intuitive handling, excellent image quality, and one of best electronic viewfinders we've seen. It also features one of the most impressive autofocus systems on any camera at this price level, both in terms of accuracy with fast lenses and tracking moving subjects. Over all it's a hugely engaging and capable camera, and one that's fundamentally a joy to use."

Ok, Sony, your target has been set up, now take aim and fire! I'm tired of continually seeing a Fuji product with an 84% rating. By about this time you should be able to muster a competitor APS-C camera that will outscore the X-T1's 84%. Yes, the well price positioned A6000 is doing well for you with a better than 10% market position. But I hope you've got an A7000 on your drawing board to overcome the X-T1. I expect your A7K to attend to those pesky details you sometimes say will be fixed on later models. And while you're at it, why don't you fool all of us and bring an A7K in at an attractive price much closer to the A6K than the X-T1? This is your chance to attain an extremely high DPR score and keep us NEX-7ers in your stable.

-- hide signature --

1prime

I don't know, Don.

  • Fuji X-T1 + 'kit' lens: $1,699
  • Sony A6000 + 'kit' lens: $800

Sure, the X-T1 scores higher, but it should be compared with the A7, not the A6000.

Kudos to Sony for bringing a full-feature top-of-line spec APS-C camera out for $650 (body only).

  • In terms of market share: Sony 1 - Fuji 0
  • In terms of bragging rights: Sony 0 - Fuji 1

Pick your horses...

And there is room between the A6000 and A7 for either/both an A7000 and A6...

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

Henry, Thanks for your reply. I tend to agree with your conclusion that there is room for something along the lines of an A7000 without or with hump. My point is "wouldn't it be lovely" if Sony achieved the the bragging rights to go along with their increasing market share. Implicit in this accomplishment would be a solid APS-C camera with all its bells and whistles well fastened. That is, enhance the room for improvement on the A6000. And l think Sony can do that at a price between the 2 comparative cameras you mention. Don

-- hide signature --

1prime

For Sony products: yes.

To compete with Fuji: no.

Fuji is really a very niche-oriented camera manufacturer. They consider themselves as the digital replacement for Leica users. In their portfolio, camera and lens positions, they are keen to target the 'pro' user (more UI buttons) and their lenses are 'one-up' to Sony's lenses. I believe that they consciously aim to 'better' the Sony lenses by allowing R&D higher budgets (cost) which satisfies their target market (the product is now better).

The X-trans sensor has been very confusing. It seems unnecessary - I think that Fuji would have gotten to where they are now by simply following the above strategy to the tee. I think that the X-trans sensor has hurt them more then helped them in the end. But, purist believe that X-trans is ahead of equivalent Mp bayer sensors (I think it is lack of AA filter with sharp lens).

Sony can target Fuji, but it is the small (but expensive) volume. They seem to do better by following the A7/r targets: same $$$s, different users.

Sony is much more consumer oriented - for every Fuji camera that ships, Sony sells ten more. Sony deals in quantity, and products have to fit certain budget constraints.

I think that Sony got pushed 'higher end' by its own customers. Many left Sony to go to Fuji (even many forum users here) out of frustration with roadmaps, product maturity, lack of choices - only to learn Fuji frustrations afterwards. But the ones that stayed, and the ones that came in, have certainly justified the current mix of (expensive) cameras and lenses for E and FE mounts.

Many still believe that APS-C is not for consumers - only for prosumers and hobbyists, even some professionals. Stick to P&S or m43 if a consumer. Canon and Nikon (and Sony SLT) proved them wrong with their 'easy-to-use', but bulky, APS-C mirror based cameras - on which many use with the kit-lens only

Fuji went on a limp - believing that a high-end APS-C mirror less market can be realized, and so far they seem to be correct.

Sony did the unthinkable: they made the APS-C market a consumer market. I would argue that, up until the A6000 and X-T1, the APS-C mirror less cameras has had a very steep learning curve and its products are rather hard to use, making the experience not that much better than dabbling in FF camera/lenses.

Sony has been plowing forward - with incredibly cheap cameras (their 3 and 5 series top in volume way above the 6 and 7 series), and customers have been dealing with their low keeper rates just because when you do have a keeper, it is an impressive one!

It is funny, Sony is covering everything from cell phone cameras to all size still cameras, as well as video. They have a better perspective on how (photographic) products compare than any of us. But they are a consumer (electronics) oriented company, and they think in (annual) products, not systems... Fuji is far more traditional in comparison.

My guess

Oh, and a good thing: I don't see many Sony users purchasing Sony products for bragging rights

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

 blue_skies's gear list:blue_skies's gear list
Canon PowerShot S95 Sony Alpha NEX-7 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sony Alpha 7 Sony a6000 +34 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
ttan98
Senior MemberPosts: 1,053
Like?
Re: The camera to beat:
In reply to 1prime, 8 months ago

1prime wrote:

blue_skies wrote:

1prime wrote:

I quote from DPR: "The X-T1 is probably Fujifilm's best camera to date, offering a compelling combination of intuitive handling, excellent image quality, and one of best electronic viewfinders we've seen. It also features one of the most impressive autofocus systems on any camera at this price level, both in terms of accuracy with fast lenses and tracking moving subjects. Over all it's a hugely engaging and capable camera, and one that's fundamentally a joy to use."

Ok, Sony, your target has been set up, now take aim and fire! I'm tired of continually seeing a Fuji product with an 84% rating. By about this time you should be able to muster a competitor APS-C camera that will outscore the X-T1's 84%. Yes, the well price positioned A6000 is doing well for you with a better than 10% market position. But I hope you've got an A7000 on your drawing board to overcome the X-T1. I expect your A7K to attend to those pesky details you sometimes say will be fixed on later models. And while you're at it, why don't you fool all of us and bring an A7K in at an attractive price much closer to the A6K than the X-T1? This is your chance to attain an extremely high DPR score and keep us NEX-7ers in your stable.

-- hide signature --

1prime

I don't know, Don.

  • Fuji X-T1 + 'kit' lens: $1,699
  • Sony A6000 + 'kit' lens: $800

Sure, the X-T1 scores higher, but it should be compared with the A7, not the A6000.

Kudos to Sony for bringing a full-feature top-of-line spec APS-C camera out for $650 (body only).

  • In terms of market share: Sony 1 - Fuji 0
  • In terms of bragging rights: Sony 0 - Fuji 1

Pick your horses...

And there is room between the A6000 and A7 for either/both an A7000 and A6...

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

Henry, Thanks for your reply. I tend to agree with your conclusion that there is room for something along the lines of an A7000 without or with hump. My point is "wouldn't it be lovely" if Sony achieved the the bragging rights to go along with their increasing market share. Implicit in this accomplishment would be a solid APS-C camera with all its bells and whistles well fastened. That is, enhance the room for improvement on the A6000. And l think Sony can do that at a price between the 2 comparative cameras you mention. Don

-- hide signature --

1prime

Also Sony should provide better quality lens than its kit lens 18-55mm, something similar to Fuji's very well received lens, 16-55mm f2.8 at a reasonable/affordable price unlike the Sony's Zeiss 16-70mm at $1000. Until Sony starts developing then release that lens I wouldn't buying more Sony body.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
captura
Forum ProPosts: 15,705Gear list
Like?
Re: The camera to beat:
In reply to blue_skies, 8 months ago

blue_skies wrote:

1prime wrote:

blue_skies wrote:

1prime wrote:

I quote from DPR: "The X-T1 is probably Fujifilm's best camera to date, offering a compelling combination of intuitive handling, excellent image quality, and one of best electronic viewfinders we've seen. It also features one of the most impressive autofocus systems on any camera at this price level, both in terms of accuracy with fast lenses and tracking moving subjects. Over all it's a hugely engaging and capable camera, and one that's fundamentally a joy to use."

Ok, Sony, your target has been set up, now take aim and fire! I'm tired of continually seeing a Fuji product with an 84% rating. By about this time you should be able to muster a competitor APS-C camera that will outscore the X-T1's 84%. Yes, the well price positioned A6000 is doing well for you with a better than 10% market position. But I hope you've got an A7000 on your drawing board to overcome the X-T1. I expect your A7K to attend to those pesky details you sometimes say will be fixed on later models. And while you're at it, why don't you fool all of us and bring an A7K in at an attractive price much closer to the A6K than the X-T1? This is your chance to attain an extremely high DPR score and keep us NEX-7ers in your stable.

-- hide signature --

1prime

I don't know, Don.

  • Fuji X-T1 + 'kit' lens: $1,699
  • Sony A6000 + 'kit' lens: $800

Sure, the X-T1 scores higher, but it should be compared with the A7, not the A6000.

Kudos to Sony for bringing a full-feature top-of-line spec APS-C camera out for $650 (body only).

  • In terms of market share: Sony 1 - Fuji 0
  • In terms of bragging rights: Sony 0 - Fuji 1

Pick your horses...

And there is room between the A6000 and A7 for either/both an A7000 and A6...

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

Henry, Thanks for your reply. I tend to agree with your conclusion that there is room for something along the lines of an A7000 without or with hump. My point is "wouldn't it be lovely" if Sony achieved the the bragging rights to go along with their increasing market share. Implicit in this accomplishment would be a solid APS-C camera with all its bells and whistles well fastened. That is, enhance the room for improvement on the A6000. And l think Sony can do that at a price between the 2 comparative cameras you mention. Don

-- hide signature --

1prime

For Sony products: yes.

Henry:

Yes, a metal body NEX-7 replacement camera next year. But they've lost the way, now.

To compete with Fuji: no.

Fuji X and OMD are huge competitors...and may be way ahead in sales of better mirrorless cameras.

Fuji is really a very niche-oriented camera manufacturer. They consider themselves as the digital replacement for Leica users. In their portfolio, camera and lens positions, they are keen to target the 'pro' user (more UI buttons) and their lenses are 'one-up' to Sony's lenses. I believe that they consciously aim to 'better' the Sony lenses by allowing R&D higher budgets (cost) which satisfies their target market (the product is now better).

Perhaps the A7/A7R are more like Niche cameras than the Fuji X line. Many potential buyers of the FF Sony's are afraid of the lack of lenses available to them. And there's  no denying the quality of Fuji lenses.

The X-trans sensor has been very confusing. It seems unnecessary - I think that Fuji would have gotten to where they are now by simply following the above strategy to the tee. I think that the X-trans sensor has hurt them more then helped them in the end. But, purist believe that X-trans is ahead of equivalent Mp bayer sensors (I think it is lack of AA filter with sharp lens).

Olympus has also swung over to a Bayer-less sensor with the E-M1. No doubt about the photo quality adavantages of Bayer-less.

Sony can target Fuji, but it is the small (but expensive) volume. They seem to do better by following the A7/r targets: same $$$s, different users.

There is a whole range of Fuji 'X' cameras to choose from, starting with the X20, at $500. The X100 and now the X100s have been judged to be the most popular personal cameras for use by professionals.

Sony is much more consumer oriented - for every Fuji camera that ships, Sony sells ten more. Sony deals in quantity, and products have to fit certain budget constraints.a

Unquestionably the quality aspect is on the Fuji side. Have you recently owned or at least handled one?

I think that Sony got pushed 'higher end' by its own customers. Many left Sony to go to Fuji (even many forum users here) out of frustration with roadmaps, product maturity, lack of choices - only to learn Fuji frustrations afterwards. But the ones that stayed, and the ones that came in, have certainly justified the current mix of (expensive) cameras and lenses for E and FE mounts.

Again, they went mainly to get a higher quality, albeit more expensive product.

Many still believe that APS-C is not for consumers - only for prosumers and hobbyists, even some professionals. Stick to P&S or m43 if a consumer. Canon and Nikon (and Sony SLT) proved them wrong with their 'easy-to-use', but bulky, APS-C mirror based cameras - on which many use with the kit-lens only

And many others believe that APS-C is ideal.

Fuji went on a limp - believing that a high-end APS-C mirror less market can be realized, and so far they seem to be correct.

Sony did the unthinkable: they made the APS-C market a consumer market. I would argue that, up until the A6000 and X-T1, the APS-C mirror less cameras has had a very steep learning curve and its products are rather hard to use, making the experience not that much better than dabbling in FF camera/lenses.

Sony, at least temporarily, abandoned the high-quality metal body APS-C camera when they failed to issue a replacement for the NEX-7. It is Sony's own fault that the Fuji X and OMD lines are doing extremely well in sales.

Sony has been plowing forward - with incredibly cheap cameras (their 3 and 5 series top in volume way above the 6 and 7 series), and customers have been dealing with their low keeper rates just because when you do have a keeper, it is an impressive one!

Enthusiasts and pros. are not impressed by incredible cheapo cameras.

It is funny, Sony is covering everything from cell phone cameras to all size still cameras, as well as video. They have a better perspective on how (photographic) products compare than any of us. But they are a consumer (electronics) oriented company, and they think in (annual) products, not systems... Fuji is far more traditional in comparison.

They have made their share of mistakes.

Steve

My guess

Oh, and a good thing: I don't see many Sony users purchasing Sony products for bragging rights

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

 captura's gear list:captura's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Sony Alpha NEX-7 Samsung NX1000 NEX5R Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 R +10 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mel Snyder
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,088Gear list
Like?
Re: The camera to beat:
In reply to ttan98, 8 months ago

ttan98 wrote:

1prime wrote:

blue_skies wrote:

1prime wrote:

I quote from DPR: "The X-T1 is probably Fujifilm's best camera to date, offering a compelling combination of intuitive handling, excellent image quality, and one of best electronic viewfinders we've seen. It also features one of the most impressive autofocus systems on any camera at this price level, both in terms of accuracy with fast lenses and tracking moving subjects. Over all it's a hugely engaging and capable camera, and one that's fundamentally a joy to use."

Ok, Sony, your target has been set up, now take aim and fire! I'm tired of continually seeing a Fuji product with an 84% rating. By about this time you should be able to muster a competitor APS-C camera that will outscore the X-T1's 84%. Yes, the well price positioned A6000 is doing well for you with a better than 10% market position. But I hope you've got an A7000 on your drawing board to overcome the X-T1. I expect your A7K to attend to those pesky details you sometimes say will be fixed on later models. And while you're at it, why don't you fool all of us and bring an A7K in at an attractive price much closer to the A6K than the X-T1? This is your chance to attain an extremely high DPR score and keep us NEX-7ers in your stable.

-- hide signature --

1prime

I don't know, Don.

  • Fuji X-T1 + 'kit' lens: $1,699
  • Sony A6000 + 'kit' lens: $800

Sure, the X-T1 scores higher, but it should be compared with the A7, not the A6000.

Kudos to Sony for bringing a full-feature top-of-line spec APS-C camera out for $650 (body only).

  • In terms of market share: Sony 1 - Fuji 0
  • In terms of bragging rights: Sony 0 - Fuji 1

Pick your horses...

And there is room between the A6000 and A7 for either/both an A7000 and A6...

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

Henry, Thanks for your reply. I tend to agree with your conclusion that there is room for something along the lines of an A7000 without or with hump. My point is "wouldn't it be lovely" if Sony achieved the the bragging rights to go along with their increasing market share. Implicit in this accomplishment would be a solid APS-C camera with all its bells and whistles well fastened. That is, enhance the room for improvement on the A6000. And l think Sony can do that at a price between the 2 comparative cameras you mention. Don

-- hide signature --

1prime

Also Sony should provide better quality lens than its kit lens 18-55mm, something similar to Fuji's very well received lens, 16-55mm f2.8 at a reasonable/affordable price unlike the Sony's Zeiss 16-70mm at $1000. Until Sony starts developing then release that lens I wouldn't buying more Sony body.

Sony can never beat Fuji on quality or price

1.Fuji is a top optical company. It doesn't have to pay a logo license fee to anyone, or to hire an outside firm to design their lenses, or have contractors make the lens components. On a $1000 lens, that probably saves them $300. Unlike Sony, it's been making lenses for more than 70 years.

2. Sony is under the gun from shareholders - specifically activist investor Dan Loeb, who is whipping them mercilessly over profits. Dan owns 7% of Sony shares, more than all the management and board combined.

 Mel Snyder's gear list:Mel Snyder's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sony Alpha 7 Sony E 16mm F2.8 Pancake Leica Summicron-M 50mm f/2 Sony E 55-210mm F4.5-6.3 OSS +12 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
captura
Forum ProPosts: 15,705Gear list
Like?
Re: Fuji XT-1 vs SONY a6000 IQ AND AF TRACKING SPEED/ACCURACY
In reply to Petroglyph, 8 months ago

This guy did some tests:

http://chewyenfook.smugmug.com/Photography/Fuji-XT-1-vs-SONY-a6000-and/38693187_FJ37Hc#!i=3199673547&k=5W67zXW

"Finally I managed to try out the Fuji XT-1 and Sony a6000. Just for comparison sake, I have included one picture taken with the Canon 5D MK3 taken at ISO1600.

Note: In another folder, I have some Sony 7 and 7r shots for a quick review. You might want to check that out.

Theer are plenty of technical details which one can easily google so I shall skip all that and proceed straight to the pictures. I was not able to take the cameras outdoors (staff didn't allow that) so all tests were done indoors. But in a sense this is a blessing because the lower light indoor conditions posed a greater challenge for the cameras.

One of the things I desperately wanted to find out was whether these latest mirrorless models can actually track as well as a DSLR. Past Fuji and Sony models have exhibited dismal performance. Well, the good news is that both the XT-1 and Sony a6000 can track. I haven't had the chance to put them to test in outdoor conditions. I tested them indoors and under rather bad lighting conditions but they still work. The Fuij XT-1 and the Sony a6000 have broken the barrier and crossed the rubicon. From now, APS-C sized mirrorless cameras will only get better and better, especially in the AF department.

Which mirrorless does better in AF, I will reserve comments until I have the opportunity to do more detailed tests. Fuji XT-1 does up to 8fps; the Sony a6000 11 fps. This quick test is mainly about IQ and AF tracking in real life situations. All I can say at this point is that higher frame rate is useless if it cannot maintain focus. It is better to have a slighter lower frame fate with higher percentage of pictures in focus.

As for static shots, there is nothing to worry about - both models snap into focus almost instantly. They are more than adequate to do normal human activity photos.

While these mirrorless cameras do track but their AF system is not as sophisticated and refined as models such as the 5DMK3, D4 or 1DX."

-more at link.

 captura's gear list:captura's gear list
Fujifilm X10 Sony Alpha NEX-7 Samsung NX1000 NEX5R Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 R +10 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
quezra
Senior MemberPosts: 3,116Gear list
Like?
The secret of unhappiness is to...
In reply to 1prime, 8 months ago

...always compare with others

 quezra's gear list:quezra's gear list
Sony Alpha 7 Sony FE 55mm F1.8 Sony FE 28-70mm F3.5-5.6 OSS Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ1000 Sony Alpha NEX-5N +8 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
GaryW
Veteran MemberPosts: 7,258Gear list
Like?
Re: The secret of unhappiness is to...
In reply to quezra, 8 months ago

quezra wrote:

...always compare with others

...and lust after the next new thing.

-- hide signature --

Gary W.

 GaryW's gear list:GaryW's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sony E 16-50mm F3.5-5.6 PZ OSS Sony E PZ 18-105mm F4 G OSS Sony Cyber-shot DSC-V3 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-HX5 +12 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
GaryW
Veteran MemberPosts: 7,258Gear list
Like?
Re: The camera to beat:
In reply to Mel Snyder, 8 months ago

Mel Snyder wrote:

ttan98 wrote:

1prime wrote:

blue_skies wrote:

1prime wrote:

I quote from DPR: "The X-T1 is probably Fujifilm's best camera to date,....

Ok, Sony, your target has been set up, now take aim and fire! I'm tired of continually seeing a Fuji product with an 84% rating. By about this time you should be able to muster a competitor APS-C camera that will outscore the X-T1's 84%. Yes, the well price positioned A6000 is doing well for you with a better than 10% market position..... This is your chance to attain an extremely high DPR score and keep us NEX-7ers in your stable.

And yet, it seems like the A6000 would make a fine Nex-7 upgrade.  

At some point, it has to be considered that if the Fuji is that great and such a great deal, who cares what Sony does?  Just buy the Fuji.  Of course, all camera systems have their drawbacks too.  The grass is always greener....

DPR gives the Nikon D7100 an 85% -- maybe that would be better than the Fuji.  You'd also have more of a selection of lenses.  I think the typical Fuji buyer probably likes the exclusivity of not being part of the crowd, kind of like a Volvo owner.  

-- hide signature --

1prime

I don't know, Don.

  • Fuji X-T1 + 'kit' lens: $1,699
  • Sony A6000 + 'kit' lens: $800

Sure, the X-T1 scores higher, but it should be compared with the A7, not the A6000.

The A6000 will sell a ton more -- these are vastly different price-points, and going over $1000 is going to be really tough for most people to get past.   And, I agree, if you get into the A7 price range, you have to consider the advantages that that might bring.  But DPR only ranks the A7 as an 80%/Silver, so it's obviously no good.  

Kudos to Sony for bringing a full-feature top-of-line spec APS-C camera out for $650 (body only).

  • In terms of market share: Sony 1 - Fuji 0
  • In terms of bragging rights: Sony 0 - Fuji 1

Pick your horses...

And there is room between the A6000 and A7 for either/both an A7000 and A6...

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

Henry, Thanks for your reply. I tend to agree with your conclusion that there is room for something along the lines of an A7000 without or with hump. My point is "wouldn't it be lovely" if Sony achieved the the bragging rights to go along with their increasing market share. Implicit in this accomplishment would be a solid APS-C camera with all its bells and whistles well fastened. That is, enhance the room for improvement on the A6000. And l think Sony can do that at a price between the 2 comparative cameras you mention. Don

-- hide signature --

1prime

Also Sony should provide better quality lens than its kit lens 18-55mm, something similar to Fuji's very well received lens, 16-55mm f2.8 at a reasonable/affordable price unlike the Sony's Zeiss 16-70mm at $1000. Until Sony starts developing then release that lens I wouldn't buying more Sony body.

Why couldn't you buy a body-only A6000 and add the 16-70 and be at the same price-point as the Fuji?  Or do you want Sony to make a kit lens that is better than the 16-70?  That would seem odd and unnecessary to me.  Or if you mean that Fuji's kit lens is better than Sony's 16-70, I guess I'd have to see a comparison to believe that there would be a significant difference, but that certainly should be something to consider if purchasing a $1700 system.

Sony can never beat Fuji on quality or price

1.Fuji is a top optical company. It doesn't have to pay a logo license fee to anyone, or to hire an outside firm to design their lenses, or have contractors make the lens components. On a $1000 lens, that probably saves them $300. Unlike Sony, it's been making lenses for more than 70 years.

In addition to CZ, you'd think Sony would have some leftover Minolta know-how.  Anyway, if you mean that $1000 is too expensive, Sony wouldn't attempt to sell a lens for $1000 unless they actually could sell it.  I'd rather have some Minolta-style lenses that are good bang-for-the-buck, but Sony seems to be focusing on the higher-end right now.  Oh well!

2. Sony is under the gun from shareholders - specifically activist investor Dan Loeb, who is whipping them mercilessly over profits. Dan owns 7% of Sony shares, more than all the management and board combined.

OK.  Are you saying he'll force Sony to make poor decisions to make short-term profits?  Or?

-- hide signature --

Gary W.

 GaryW's gear list:GaryW's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sony E 16-50mm F3.5-5.6 PZ OSS Sony E PZ 18-105mm F4 G OSS Sony Cyber-shot DSC-V3 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-HX5 +12 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
nevercat
Senior MemberPosts: 3,120
Like?
Re: The camera to beat:
In reply to captura, 8 months ago

captura wrote:

blue_skies wrote:

1prime wrote:

For Sony products: yes.

Henry:

Yes, a metal body NEX-7 replacement camera next year. But they've lost the way, now.

To compete with Fuji: no.

Fuji X and OMD are huge competitors...and may be way ahead in sales of better mirrorless cameras.

Can you show sales figures that show this? The only (and I know not very reliable) figures I see is in Amazone.com, where there are 6 Sony Cameras in the top 10 (3 A6000, 1 Nex6, 1 Nex3n and a A7). The A6000 is on the first place, the third place and the 7th place) The Fuji XT-1 is 2 times (place 2 and 4) and there are two Olympus cameras (E-PM2 on 5 and E-M10 on 9) no E-M1 camera in the top 10)...

Fuji is really a very niche-oriented camera manufacturer. They consider themselves as the digital replacement for Leica users. In their portfolio, camera and lens positions, they are keen to target the 'pro' user (more UI buttons) and their lenses are 'one-up' to Sony's lenses. I believe that they consciously aim to 'better' the Sony lenses by allowing R&D higher budgets (cost) which satisfies their target market (the product is now better).

Perhaps the A7/A7R are more like Niche cameras than the Fuji X line. Many potential buyers of the FF Sony's are afraid of the lack of lenses available to them. And there's no denying the quality of Fuji lenses.

No there is no denying the quality of the Fuji lenses, but whrn you look at the quality of the Sony FE lenses, they score vey hight too, even higher then the Fuji lenses...

The X-trans sensor has been very confusing. It seems unnecessary - I think that Fuji would have gotten to where they are now by simply following the above strategy to the tee. I think that the X-trans sensor has hurt them more then helped them in the end. But, purist believe that X-trans is ahead of equivalent Mp bayer sensors (I think it is lack of AA filter with sharp lens).

Olympus has also swung over to a Bayer-less sensor with the E-M1. No doubt about the photo quality adavantages of Bayer-less.

The E-M1 has a normal bayer sensor, only no anti aliasing filter.

Sony can target Fuji, but it is the small (but expensive) volume. They seem to do better by following the A7/r targets: same $$$s, different users.

There is a whole range of Fuji 'X' cameras to choose from, starting with the X20, at $500. The X100 and now the X100s have been judged to be the most popular personal cameras for use by professionals.

Yes, but not all X cameras are ILC cameras. So there is no need to compare them with the ILC cameras from Sony. When you want to go cheap, look at the A3000 from Sony, $300 for a mirrorless camera...

Sony is much more consumer oriented - for every Fuji camera that ships, Sony sells ten more. Sony deals in quantity, and products have to fit certain budget constraints.a

Unquestionably the quality aspect is on the Fuji side. Have you recently owned or at least handled one?

Is it? The quality of the A7/r and their lenses is very high, many are better then the Fuji cameras, and these cameras and lenses are full frame!

I think that Sony got pushed 'higher end' by its own customers. Many left Sony to go to Fuji (even many forum users here) out of frustration with roadmaps, product maturity, lack of choices - only to learn Fuji frustrations afterwards. But the ones that stayed, and the ones that came in, have certainly justified the current mix of (expensive) cameras and lenses for E and FE mounts.

Again, they went mainly to get a higher quality, albeit more expensive product.

Fuji is in every aspect more expensive then Sony. Fuji have no FF camera, but their X-T1 is in the same price group as the A7! The A7 is FF, has more MP on sensor, has the better lenses...

Many still believe that APS-C is not for consumers - only for prosumers and hobbyists, even some professionals. Stick to P&S or m43 if a consumer. Canon and Nikon (and Sony SLT) proved them wrong with their 'easy-to-use', but bulky, APS-C mirror based cameras - on which many use with the kit-lens only

And many others believe that APS-C is ideal.

I do agree with you, APS is a great sensorsize....

Fuji went on a limp - believing that a high-end APS-C mirror less market can be realized, and so far they seem to be correct.

Sony did the unthinkable: they made the APS-C market a consumer market. I would argue that, up until the A6000 and X-T1, the APS-C mirror less cameras has had a very steep learning curve and its products are rather hard to use, making the experience not that much better than dabbling in FF camera/lenses.

Sony, at least temporarily, abandoned the high-quality metal body APS-C camera when they failed to issue a replacement for the NEX-7. It is Sony's own fault that the Fuji X and OMD lines are doing extremely well in sales.

Well did they fail? What camera was better selling, the Nex6 or the Nex7? Isn't it wise to come with the better selling camera first? The high end Nex 7, is only high end for the metal in the body, not for IQ, focus speed etc.

Sony has been plowing forward - with incredibly cheap cameras (their 3 and 5 series top in volume way above the 6 and 7 series), and customers have been dealing with their low keeper rates just because when you do have a keeper, it is an impressive one!

Enthusiasts and pros. are not impressed by incredible cheapo cameras.

Well in fact they are! Many of the real enthousiasts are using cheaper cameras, both as back up and as first camera. They understand that you don't need the most expensive camera anymore, you need the camera with the features they need. Pro's is a very small group, they buy the cameras with the real pro service, so no Sony, Fuji, Panasonic and Olympus for them... Only Canon and Nikon, they need the service that those offer, and pay the price for it.

It is funny, Sony is covering everything from cell phone cameras to all size still cameras, as well as video. They have a better perspective on how (photographic) products compare than any of us. But they are a consumer (electronics) oriented company, and they think in (annual) products, not systems... Fuji is far more traditional in comparison.

They have made their share of mistakes.

Fuji makes very nioce cameras, but their price is rather high. Sony makes very nice cameras too, at a lower price and a different approch, Sony goes for a modern camera look and feel (just like Leica with their new Mirrorless) Fuji goes for the more traditional way. Both types of cameras have their supporters...

Steve

My guess

Oh, and a good thing: I don't see many Sony users purchasing Sony products for bragging rights

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
KwhyChang
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,157Gear list
Like?
Re: The camera to beat:
In reply to 1prime, 8 months ago

1prime wrote:

I quote from DPR: "The X-T1 is probably Fujifilm's best camera to date, offering a compelling combination of intuitive handling, excellent image quality, and one of best electronic viewfinders we've seen. It also features one of the most impressive autofocus systems on any camera at this price level, both in terms of accuracy with fast lenses and tracking moving subjects. Over all it's a hugely engaging and capable camera, and one that's fundamentally a joy to use."

Ok, Sony, your target has been set up, now take aim and fire! I'm tired of continually seeing a Fuji product with an 84% rating. By about this time you should be able to muster a competitor APS-C camera that will outscore the X-T1's 84%. Yes, the well price positioned A6000 is doing well for you with a better than 10% market position. But I hope you've got an A7000 on your drawing board to overcome the X-T1. I expect your A7K to attend to those pesky details you sometimes say will be fixed on later models. And while you're at it, why don't you fool all of us and bring an A7K in at an attractive price much closer to the A6K than the X-T1? This is your chance to attain an extremely high DPR score and keep us NEX-7ers in your stable.

-- hide signature --

1prime

There will always be a camera to beat.

In my opinion I think the Sony A7/R is the camera to beat at this point in time.

-- hide signature --

Dave

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
NomadMark
Regular MemberPosts: 459Gear list
Like?
Re: The camera to beat:
In reply to KwhyChang, 8 months ago

At 1700 bucks, I'll take a FF A7 any day over the X whatever APS-C Fuji Camera.

 NomadMark's gear list:NomadMark's gear list
Sony RX1R Sony Alpha 7R Canon EF 50mm f/1.2L USM Canon EF 400mm f/5.6L USM Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM +7 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
nevercat
Senior MemberPosts: 3,120
Like?
Why must there be a camera to beat?
In reply to 1prime, 8 months ago

Why must there be a camera to beat? And what do we want to beat?

Size? The A6000 is smaller then the X-T1!
Price? The A6000 is cheaper then the X-T1!MP? The A6000 has more then the X-T1!
Weight? guess what camera is heavier... (I give a hint it is not the Sony)
Number of dedicated lenses? Again Sony who wins!

We could go on and on like this. There is no camera to beat, not for Sony nor for Canon, Nikon, Fuji etc! Buy the camera you like best, use it in the way you like best and enjoy it! Forget about the "best" camera, the best camera is the one you have with you, not the newest toy in the shop!

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
John Gellings
Contributing MemberPosts: 560
Like?
Re: The camera to beat:
In reply to captura, 8 months ago

All of these cameras are good... even great.  Why focus on camera wars?  Just go out and photograph with what you have and forget about scores.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Edymagno
Senior MemberPosts: 2,883Gear list
Like?
Re: Why must there be a camera to beat?
In reply to nevercat, 8 months ago

nevercat wrote:

Why must there be a camera to beat? And what do we want to beat?

Size? The A6000 is smaller then the X-T1!
Price? The A6000 is cheaper then the X-T1!MP? The A6000 has more then the X-T1!
Weight? guess what camera is heavier... (I give a hint it is not the Sony)
Number of dedicated lenses? Again Sony who wins!

We could go on and on like this. There is no camera to beat, not for Sony nor for Canon, Nikon, Fuji etc! Buy the camera you like best, use it in the way you like best and enjoy it! Forget about the "best" camera, the best camera is the one you have with you, not the newest toy in the shop!

I basically agree. But aren't we mostly here to talk about gear?

Eduardo

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
nevercat
Senior MemberPosts: 3,120
Like?
Re: Why must there be a camera to beat?
In reply to Edymagno, 8 months ago

Edymagno wrote:

nevercat wrote:

Why must there be a camera to beat? And what do we want to beat?

Size? The A6000 is smaller then the X-T1!
Price? The A6000 is cheaper then the X-T1!MP? The A6000 has more then the X-T1!
Weight? guess what camera is heavier... (I give a hint it is not the Sony)
Number of dedicated lenses? Again Sony who wins!

We could go on and on like this. There is no camera to beat, not for Sony nor for Canon, Nikon, Fuji etc! Buy the camera you like best, use it in the way you like best and enjoy it! Forget about the "best" camera, the best camera is the one you have with you, not the newest toy in the shop!

I basically agree. But aren't we mostly here to talk about gear?

Yes this is a gear forum, and we do talk about gear, but why has it in the this camera beats that camera style?

Ilike to talk about our gear, how we can get the best results out of it, how some new lens can help to get a better picture, what camera and lens combination is best for the job etc. I like to talk about the differences in cameras and why I find it important. But I don't like to talk about beating one camera...

Eduardo

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads