Is this the best I can expect from D800?

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
LesGoodey
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Is this the best I can expect from D800?
8 months ago

Hello, I have been a professional photographer since 1974 working in the Commercial, Military and Education areas. I use Phase medium format equipment in my day job and Canon 5D and 5D11 personally. I recently bought a Nikon D800 with a Tamron SP 24-70 f2.8 for myself and after hundreds of shots I have yet to find a single one that I am happy with!

I have scoured the internet looking for information on achieving sharp images and downloaded as many real world samples as I can find and I have to say I don't think those are any better.

I am talking about hand held shots inparticular and although I'm getting on a bit I don't think I shake that much.

I notice that most recommendations are for higher ISO and shutter speeds than you might otherwise have used.

Here is a full size out of the camera jpeg for your comments:

Nikon D800 Tamron SP24-70 f2.8 - 400th sec at f8 - 250 ISO

Canon EOS 5D Nikon D800
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digital ed
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Re: Is this the best I can expect from D800?
In reply to LesGoodey, 8 months ago

My opinion, obviously subjective, is that I get sharper images with my D800 than the posted jpg when pixel peeping and using my Nikon 24-70 f/2.8 as well as the 14-24 f/2.8 and 70-200 f/2.8. You might try a known better lens than the Tamron before making a final decision.

I have been shooting and processing film and digital photographs since the 1950's and it took me at least a year to become comfortable with shooting and focusing with my D800. There was more for me to learn using this amazing camera.

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TerryAnderson
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Re: Is this the best I can expect from D800?
In reply to LesGoodey, 8 months ago

I'm not sure about others, but I have been happy with the Tamron 24-70 on the D4, Df and my daughters D7100, but on the D800. I have to admit it hasn't seemed to be as sharp. While the Nikkor 24-70 has given me excellent results on the D800. So maybe there is something there.

Here are a couple of images taken with the nikkor 28mm f1.8

D800 and 28mm f1.8 and IR720nm

D800 with 28mm f1.8 and IR720nm

All the best and keep on shooting
Terry Anderson
Boston West Photography

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cm71td
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Re: Is this the best I can expect from D800?
In reply to LesGoodey, 8 months ago

Just some thoughts.  I don't have as much experience as you do, but I have used the D800 a lot.

Have you tried different lenses?

Are you shooting RAW?  If so, how are you processing?

I had a Canon 5D II for years and switched to a D800e.  There was a noticeable difference in sharpness.  If you are not seeing it, then I would suspect your glass.

And no, the D800 is not as unforgiving as everyone says.  The pixel pitch is less than many APS-C sensors.  I think 1/400th at that focal length is overkill.  You could have lowered your ISO.

Did you switch from Canon for other reasons?  If you are looking for sharpness, it's usually more effective to upgrade you lenses, than switch bodies.

Hope this helps.

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Reilly Diefenbach
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Re: Is this the best I can expect from D800? Yes.
In reply to LesGoodey, 8 months ago

I would say you got most if not everything of which the lens and camera is capable, which is quite good.

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chuhsi
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Re: Is this the best I can expect from D800?
In reply to LesGoodey, 8 months ago

I'm curious about this. With a 1/400 shutter speed, stabilization in the lens, and F8, you should be getting a really sharp picture with any camera.

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StillLearning
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Re: Is this the best I can expect from D800?
In reply to LesGoodey, 8 months ago

LesGoodey wrote:

Hello, I have been a professional photographer since 1974 working in the Commercial, Military and Education areas. I use Phase medium format equipment in my day job and Canon 5D and 5D11 personally. I recently bought a Nikon D800 with a Tamron SP 24-70 f2.8 for myself and after hundreds of shots I have yet to find a single one that I am happy with!

I have scoured the internet looking for information on achieving sharp images and downloaded as many real world samples as I can find and I have to say I don't think those are any better.

I am talking about hand held shots inparticular and although I'm getting on a bit I don't think I shake that much.

I notice that most recommendations are for higher ISO and shutter speeds than you might otherwise have used.

Here is a full size out of the camera jpeg for your comments:

Nikon D800 Tamron SP24-70 f2.8 - 400th sec at f8 - 250 ISO

The Tamron is a good lens but it's not getting the most out of the D800. Also Nikon doesn't go out of their way to make sure all third party lenses focus exactly. Though this picture seems to be on but any slight difference could make it appear less sharp. Photozone tests show the Tamron on a D3x is a good lens but not a great one. There are probably not very many lenses yet that fully exploits the 36mp sensor. You should also note you are used to using medium format and may be subconsciously expecting the same results. The answer to your question is 'No'. This isn't the best you should expect out of the D800.

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munro harrap
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Re: Is this the best I can expect from D800?
In reply to LesGoodey, 8 months ago

Use the older lenses, and cherry-pick. I bought two 24-70mm f2.8 lenses, both returned due to great field curvature (see the photozone de. APS-C review- its a LOT worse on full-frame.

I discovered that with a person, a building or a clump of trees that at ANY aperture only the central ninth was sharp, and the radiating all round is a greater and greater degree of departure from reality, added to which fringing just gets horrible. Yes, it can be corrected, but you simply cannot use this lens on film, and many recent lenses are also bad for fringing.

Also the focus IS critical, and worth checking . It may vary with distances in accuracy, and again some lenses vary a lot (the 35mm/f1.4 AI/AIS comes to mind.

The 24-85mm old and new are not worth buying at all, but the newest is the worst.

The older 28-85mm f3.5-4.5 and 28-105mm f3.5-4.5 are fine, if you get a good one, as is the old 24-50mm f3.3-4.5 which is a handy little thing that overall is much better than the 24-70mm f2.8 nano at the wide end. Except its duff in the extreme corners, where you and I dont put stuff anyway.

You can get very sharp pics on the 36MP sensor, but the problem is (check out the DXO mark tests) that even the most expensive nikkors (and yes I purchased and had to return a 14-24mm Nano as well) rarely get anywhere near the sensors resolution, so you end up with what are in fact merely 10-20 MP images blown up, and, of course you see this at 100% straightaway.

Wide-angles are especially bad in this way, as of course their 10 Megapixels worth of resolution gets spread over a much wider area.

Its staggering how bad some lenses are. The old 17-55MP that still retails at over £1000 in the UK new has, according to the DXO mark tests, mostly less than 6MP resolution, and there are full-frame lenses as bad.

The Tamron they rate very highly-its better than the Nikkors-all of them, but it can still only manage 17MP like the very good Samyang 14MM f2.8 I have.

BUT, and its a big but resolution is also reduced by the AA filter, and in two ways.

1, the filter introduces blur.

2.You then sharpen to increase acuity, but

3.This increases noise, so, you then reduce noise and wave bye bye to resolution!!

The idea that you can retain all of these sensors resolution vanishes with even a tiny bit of noise reduction, but I limit sharpening in shots like that one to a max of 0.3 pixels at 255% in photoshop elements, as Lightroom, great for noise reduction, still refuses anything finer than 0.5 pixels, which makes everything look unreal IMHO. For people shots I use only 0.2% @400 in Elements (Photoshops the same) and it works- I got that from Luminous Lightroom.

All one can do is keep the ISO as low as possible and sharpen pretty much as I do.

And try to avoid going to f11, since in fact the sensor prefers f5.6.

Hope this helps,

Peter

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soloryb
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Re: Is this the best I can expect from D800?
In reply to LesGoodey, 8 months ago

You're shooting fast enough for hand-held on a D800 but the image does seem a bit soft. Here's 2 possibilities to check out:

It may be that the Tameron lens you're using isn't sharp enough to take advantage of the capabilities of your D800. Try a sharper lens.

It could also be that your AF is off and needs to be corrected (in camera for that lens). Try manual focus on a few shots and see if that improves things.

soloryb

LesGoodey wrote:

Hello, I have been a professional photographer since 1974 working in the Commercial, Military and Education areas. I use Phase medium format equipment in my day job and Canon 5D and 5D11 personally. I recently bought a Nikon D800 with a Tamron SP 24-70 f2.8 for myself and after hundreds of shots I have yet to find a single one that I am happy with!

I have scoured the internet looking for information on achieving sharp images and downloaded as many real world samples as I can find and I have to say I don't think those are any better.

I am talking about hand held shots inparticular and although I'm getting on a bit I don't think I shake that much.

I notice that most recommendations are for higher ISO and shutter speeds than you might otherwise have used.

Here is a full size out of the camera jpeg for your comments:

Nikon D800 Tamron SP24-70 f2.8 - 400th sec at f8 - 250 ISO

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j_photo
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Re: Is this the best I can expect from D800?
In reply to LesGoodey, 8 months ago

Just my opinion: No, I think you should expect better. I suspect the lens.

Also, the image looks over-sharpened in PP to me. I say this as a serial abuser, so no offense intended.

And I'm wondering, what did you focus on? I know you've got good DOF at that aperture and focal length--but if we are going to pixel peep, it would be best to know where to expect the greatest sharpness.

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Trazan
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Re: Is this the best I can expect from D800?
In reply to LesGoodey, 8 months ago

The image size/pixel density obviously magnifies any shortcomings in lens or technique. That said, shoot raw and at minimum 1/(2xfocal lenght) sec and you're good.

Just shot this out the window, and considering the 36Mpix dimensions I'd say it's pretty sharp. Focus in the center.

24mm f8

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T O Shooter
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I don't buy this..................
In reply to munro harrap, 8 months ago

munro harrap wrote:

Use the older lenses, and cherry-pick. I bought two 24-70mm f2.8 lenses, both returned due to great field curvature (see the photozone de. APS-C review- its a LOT worse on full-frame.

I discovered that with a person, a building or a clump of trees that at ANY aperture only the central ninth was sharp, and the radiating all round is a greater and greater degree of departure from reality, added to which fringing just gets horrible. Yes, it can be corrected, but you simply cannot use this lens on film, and many recent lenses are also bad for fringing.

Also the focus IS critical, and worth checking . It may vary with distances in accuracy, and again some lenses vary a lot (the 35mm/f1.4 AI/AIS comes to mind.

The 24-85mm old and new are not worth buying at all, but the newest is the worst.

The older 28-85mm f3.5-4.5 and 28-105mm f3.5-4.5 are fine, if you get a good one, as is the old 24-50mm f3.3-4.5 which is a handy little thing that overall is much better than the 24-70mm f2.8 nano at the wide end. Except its duff in the extreme corners, where you and I dont put stuff anyway.

You can get very sharp pics on the 36MP sensor, but the problem is (check out the DXO mark tests) that even the most expensive nikkors (and yes I purchased and had to return a 14-24mm Nano as well) rarely get anywhere near the sensors resolution, so you end up with what are in fact merely 10-20 MP images blown up, and, of course you see this at 100% straightaway.

Wide-angles are especially bad in this way, as of course their 10 Megapixels worth of resolution gets spread over a much wider area.

Its staggering how bad some lenses are. The old 17-55MP that still retails at over £1000 in the UK new has, according to the DXO mark tests, mostly less than 6MP resolution, and there are full-frame lenses as bad.

The Tamron they rate very highly-its better than the Nikkors-all of them, but it can still only manage 17MP like the very good Samyang 14MM f2.8 I have.

BUT, and its a big but resolution is also reduced by the AA filter, and in two ways.

1, the filter introduces blur.

2.You then sharpen to increase acuity, but

3.This increases noise, so, you then reduce noise and wave bye bye to resolution!!

The idea that you can retain all of these sensors resolution vanishes with even a tiny bit of noise reduction, but I limit sharpening in shots like that one to a max of 0.3 pixels at 255% in photoshop elements, as Lightroom, great for noise reduction, still refuses anything finer than 0.5 pixels, which makes everything look unreal IMHO. For people shots I use only 0.2% @400 in Elements (Photoshops the same) and it works- I got that from Luminous Lightroom.

All one can do is keep the ISO as low as possible and sharpen pretty much as I do.

And try to avoid going to f11, since in fact the sensor prefers f5.6.

Hope this helps,

Peter

I'll direct my comments to the above and I'll include the following comment from Digital ed

"it took me at least a year to become comfortable with shooting and focusing with my D800. There was more for me to learn using this amazing camera."

The D800 is not a pro body. I doubt if Nikon intended that you not only had to select just the perfect lens as well as become a tester of lenses to be able to pick out the "cream" of that particular lens to get a decent image.  Neither did Nikon figure that you needed a full year of training to get to the point where you could get a decent image from one. I had one of the first D800s in Toronto. I paid a $200 premium to a fellow who had an inside connection with one of the major chains to get it. So, point being, very, very early body.

In June of 2012 my wife wanted to photography a reasonable size party. Set the aperature, auto iso, wb for fluorescent, and all she had to do was focus, compose and zoom ( 24-70 )  Excellent results and she rarely ever uses a camera let alone a DSLR.

My only problem with the 800 was inconsistent focus which latest firmware allieviated. And that was on BIF with probably second tier lenses ( 150-500 Sigma, 300 f4 AF-s with TC-1.4II ) where in reality I didn't have enough pixels on the bird ( over too much distance )  And it's probably too much to expect $6000 D4 AF in $3000 D800

My thoughts are that the issue with some people getting poor results or taking a year to learn to work with the D800 is due to sample variation resulting from Nikon's recent bout with poor quality control. The D800 owner is left with too many variables - is it me?, is there something wrong with the body?, are my lenses good enough?, do I have a bad copy of my lens?, do I need to micro adjust my lenses?, and on and on. And that leads to threads like this one.  Good luck with it.

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Re: Is this the best I can expect from D800?
In reply to LesGoodey, 8 months ago

LesGoodey wrote: Is this the best I can expect from D800?

No.

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Rogerlange
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Re: Is this the best I can expect from D800?
In reply to LesGoodey, 8 months ago

LesGoodey wrote:

Hello, I have been a professional photographer since 1974 working in the Commercial, Military and Education areas. I use Phase medium format equipment in my day job and Canon 5D and 5D11 personally. I recently bought a Nikon D800 with a Tamron SP 24-70 f2.8 for myself and after hundreds of shots I have yet to find a single one that I am happy with!

I have scoured the internet looking for information on achieving sharp images and downloaded as many real world samples as I can find and I have to say I don't think those are any better.

I am talking about hand held shots inparticular and although I'm getting on a bit I don't think I shake that much.

I notice that most recommendations are for higher ISO and shutter speeds than you might otherwise have used.

Here is a full size out of the camera jpeg for your comments:

Nikon D800 Tamron SP24-70 f2.8 - 400th sec at f8 - 250 ISO

No, but I got rid of my d800 for exactly what your experiencing . There appears to have been a bad batch made  with focusing problems. It did not matter what piece of glass I was using it wasn't sharp. My buddies d800 is tack sharp. Take it back if that's an option or take it in to nikon for repair.?  I'm waiting for a d800s.

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hewhosculpts
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Re: Is this the best I can expect from D800?
In reply to soloryb, 8 months ago

Actually, contrast focusing on a good tripod rather than manual or the default phase focusing would be a better test of lens quality. I'd also pick the sweet spot on the lens which is F5.6 at 70mm.

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Robin Casady
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Re: Is this the best I can expect from D800?
In reply to chuhsi, 8 months ago

chuhsi wrote:

I'm curious about this. With a 1/400 shutter speed, stabilization in the lens, and F8, you should be getting a really sharp picture with any camera.

At 1/400 shutter speed, stabilization should be turned off. This is a fast enough speed to freeze the image from any fl. on a 24-70 and stabilization will do more harm than good.

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Trazan
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Re: Is this the best I can expect from D800?
In reply to Rogerlange, 8 months ago

Rogerlange wrote:

LesGoodey wrote:

Hello, I have been a professional photographer since 1974 working in the Commercial, Military and Education areas. I use Phase medium format equipment in my day job and Canon 5D and 5D11 personally. I recently bought a Nikon D800 with a Tamron SP 24-70 f2.8 for myself and after hundreds of shots I have yet to find a single one that I am happy with!

I have scoured the internet looking for information on achieving sharp images and downloaded as many real world samples as I can find and I have to say I don't think those are any better.

I am talking about hand held shots inparticular and although I'm getting on a bit I don't think I shake that much.

I notice that most recommendations are for higher ISO and shutter speeds than you might otherwise have used.

Here is a full size out of the camera jpeg for your comments:

Nikon D800 Tamron SP24-70 f2.8 - 400th sec at f8 - 250 ISO

No, but I got rid of my d800 for exactly what your experiencing . There appears to have been a bad batch made with focusing problems. It did not matter what piece of glass I was using it wasn't sharp. My buddies d800 is tack sharp. Take it back if that's an option or take it in to nikon for repair.? I'm waiting for a d800s.

This has nothing to do with focusing problems. That'd result in focus being in the wrong spot, not everything being soft.

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Devendra
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UV filter? ooc jpeg? focus area? post-processing?
In reply to LesGoodey, 8 months ago

Hi Les,

Like most of us here we try our best to get sharp results based on the scene/situation/subject, and experience. As you have noticed D800/E are unforgiving at 100%, but when done right they can yield results beyond your expectations.

LesGoodey wrote:

Hello, I have been a professional photographer since 1974 working in the Commercial, Military and Education areas. I use Phase medium format equipment in my day job and Canon 5D and 5D11 personally. I recently bought a Nikon D800 with a Tamron SP 24-70 f2.8 for myself and after hundreds of shots I have yet to find a single one that I am happy with!

Not to generalize, one thing I have noticed is old schoolers tend to add UV/XYZ filters on top of lenses. Was this the case in your case? If so, try taking images without the filters and see if there is any difference. Also, if not already doing so, attach your lens hood to get more contrast.

I have scoured the internet looking for information on achieving sharp images and downloaded as many real world samples as I can find and I have to say I don't think those are any better.

A lot depends on processing, and if the posts you saw had out of camera jpg. Also depending on the picture control, and finer sharp adjustments, it is hard to decide what the camera produced. For critical work, shooting in RAW and processing the .nefs to your satisfaction is the way to go. Since you have background with other digital bodies, I expect you may have already fine-tuned your workflow. If not, that will be my next advice.

I am talking about hand held shots inparticular and although I'm getting on a bit I don't think I shake that much.

Here are some handheld shots (most have exif intact and try to see @100% view) -

1.full:

2. resized followed by crop

crop from top

middle-left

3.full resized

crop

below sample full crops from few other images

4.cropped

tough lighting situation

5.cropped

this looks tiny in original

I notice that most recommendations are for higher ISO and shutter speeds than you might otherwise have used.

Not really. All my above shots were handheld - some with VR. Lower ISO will yield better image quality, but "freezing motion" sharpness will depend on other factors, eg. shutter speed, subject, etc.

Here is a full size out of the camera jpeg for your comments:

Nikon D800 Tamron SP24-70 f2.8 - 400th sec at f8 - 250 ISO

The above image of yours can be potentially sharper. I am not sure where the focus area was since the background is oof. f8 should yield great results as you are aware. If you have shot RAW, you may want to post process it again.

Now apart from all this, one additional (open) secret for me is using Nik Sharpner plug-in/product when I really want to make images more sharp to my liking. You can try it out and fine tune the parameters during processing.

Good luck and hope this helps, so we can get to see more images from you!

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digital ed
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Re: I don't buy this..................
In reply to T O Shooter, 8 months ago

T O Shooter wrote:

munro harrap wrote:

Use the older lenses, and cherry-pick. I bought two 24-70mm f2.8 lenses, both returned due to great field curvature (see the photozone de. APS-C review- its a LOT worse on full-frame.

I discovered that with a person, a building or a clump of trees that at ANY aperture only the central ninth was sharp, and the radiating all round is a greater and greater degree of departure from reality, added to which fringing just gets horrible. Yes, it can be corrected, but you simply cannot use this lens on film, and many recent lenses are also bad for fringing.

Also the focus IS critical, and worth checking . It may vary with distances in accuracy, and again some lenses vary a lot (the 35mm/f1.4 AI/AIS comes to mind.

The 24-85mm old and new are not worth buying at all, but the newest is the worst.

The older 28-85mm f3.5-4.5 and 28-105mm f3.5-4.5 are fine, if you get a good one, as is the old 24-50mm f3.3-4.5 which is a handy little thing that overall is much better than the 24-70mm f2.8 nano at the wide end. Except its duff in the extreme corners, where you and I dont put stuff anyway.

You can get very sharp pics on the 36MP sensor, but the problem is (check out the DXO mark tests) that even the most expensive nikkors (and yes I purchased and had to return a 14-24mm Nano as well) rarely get anywhere near the sensors resolution, so you end up with what are in fact merely 10-20 MP images blown up, and, of course you see this at 100% straightaway.

Wide-angles are especially bad in this way, as of course their 10 Megapixels worth of resolution gets spread over a much wider area.

Its staggering how bad some lenses are. The old 17-55MP that still retails at over £1000 in the UK new has, according to the DXO mark tests, mostly less than 6MP resolution, and there are full-frame lenses as bad.

The Tamron they rate very highly-its better than the Nikkors-all of them, but it can still only manage 17MP like the very good Samyang 14MM f2.8 I have.

BUT, and its a big but resolution is also reduced by the AA filter, and in two ways.

1, the filter introduces blur.

2.You then sharpen to increase acuity, but

3.This increases noise, so, you then reduce noise and wave bye bye to resolution!!

The idea that you can retain all of these sensors resolution vanishes with even a tiny bit of noise reduction, but I limit sharpening in shots like that one to a max of 0.3 pixels at 255% in photoshop elements, as Lightroom, great for noise reduction, still refuses anything finer than 0.5 pixels, which makes everything look unreal IMHO. For people shots I use only 0.2% @400 in Elements (Photoshops the same) and it works- I got that from Luminous Lightroom.

All one can do is keep the ISO as low as possible and sharpen pretty much as I do.

And try to avoid going to f11, since in fact the sensor prefers f5.6.

Hope this helps,

Peter

I'll direct my comments to the above and I'll include the following comment from Digital ed

"it took me at least a year to become comfortable with shooting and focusing with my D800. There was more for me to learn using this amazing camera."

The D800 is not a pro body. I doubt if Nikon intended that you not only had to select just the perfect lens as well as become a tester of lenses to be able to pick out the "cream" of that particular lens to get a decent image. Neither did Nikon figure that you needed a full year of training to get to the point where you could get a decent image from one. I had one of the first D800s in Toronto. I paid a $200 premium to a fellow who had an inside connection with one of the major chains to get it. So, point being, very, very early body.

In June of 2012 my wife wanted to photography a reasonable size party. Set the aperature, auto iso, wb for fluorescent, and all she had to do was focus, compose and zoom ( 24-70 ) Excellent results and she rarely ever uses a camera let alone a DSLR.

My only problem with the 800 was inconsistent focus which latest firmware allieviated. And that was on BIF with probably second tier lenses ( 150-500 Sigma, 300 f4 AF-s with TC-1.4II ) where in reality I didn't have enough pixels on the bird ( over too much distance ) And it's probably too much to expect $6000 D4 AF in $3000 D800

My thoughts are that the issue with some people getting poor results or taking a year to learn to work with the D800 is due to sample variation resulting from Nikon's recent bout with poor quality control. The D800 owner is left with too many variables - is it me?, is there something wrong with the body?, are my lenses good enough?, do I have a bad copy of my lens?, do I need to micro adjust my lenses?, and on and on. And that leads to threads like this one. Good luck with it.

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Photography - It's a passion No other reason required.

Because I was referenced I will respond. Yes, my D800 initially had some focusing problems and it took me some time to find the optimum fine focus for all my lenses. Also, I never used the left-most auto focus points because of the focus error. A trip for the camera to Nikon Service in Los Angeles seems to have fixed those issues. All my lenses now focus with zero fine focus evaluated on test charts as well as real life photos using CDAF, PDAF and manual focus. The left-most focus sensor now focuses optimally.

However, I do disagree that there is nothing to learn or re-learn to use the D800 optimally. For optimum image quality the camera must be held or mounted securely, mirror delay helps and higher than normal shutter speeds should be used. Without delayed shutter it was obvious to me in the studio that I obtained sharper images using studio strobes as opposed to without, and this was on a reasonably secure tripod. Attention to using small apertures must also be taken into account to prevent diffraction from blurring the image.

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"There is a little of not done yet in all of us."
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 digital ed's gear list:digital ed's gear list
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digital ed
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Re: UV filter? ooc jpeg? focus area? post-processing?
In reply to Devendra, 8 months ago

Devendra wrote:

Now apart from all this, one additional (open) secret for me is using Nik Sharpner plug-in/product when I really want to make images more sharp to my liking. You can try it out and fine tune the parameters during processing.

Good luck and hope this helps, so we can get to see more images from you!

If you haven't tried it yet I would suggest the lens sharpening using DXO Optics Pro 9. It brings out the subtle sharpness without creating the sharpening artifacts we are normally used to. It makes a big difference for my D800 images, especially when pixel peeping.

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"There is a little of not done yet in all of us."
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 digital ed's gear list:digital ed's gear list
Olympus E-3 Olympus E-1 Nikon 1 V2 Nikon D810 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED +14 more
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