Sony A6000 vs Olympus OMD EM-1/5/10

Started 5 months ago | Discussions
exdeejjjaaaa
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Re: Try harder...
In reply to captura, 5 months ago

captura wrote:

bluevellet wrote:

captura wrote:

bluevellet wrote:

captura wrote:

blue_skies wrote:

bluevellet wrote:

captura wrote:

noise?

ISO/resolution?

Color?

lenses?

handling?

AF?

Tracking?

Video?

Camera Labs repor, Sony Alpha A6000 vs Olympus OMD EM5 Noise RAW

http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Sony_Alpha_A6000/RAW_noise.shtml

Discussion?

Not much to discuss. Same old story.

Sony can make great sensors, but they're a bit clueless about extracting the most detail out of them themselves in Sony cameras, leaving often their competitors to best them. With the very same Sony sensors. This has been documented in countless reviews at DPR too and the subject of discussion in this forum.

As far as m43 is concerned, this ain't 2009 anymore. 2012 marked a turning point hence why Gordon Laing (from Cameralabs) is finding his old E-M5 (2012) performs toe-to-toe with the shiny new A6000 (2014), despite the Oly camera having a "tiny" sensor that is 2 years old.

This sounds soooo much like the early Nex-5N versus Nex-7 comparisons.

It took a long while, but finally the Nex-7 was deemed 'as good as' the Nex-5N, after downsampling.

However, for several applications (inc. video and high ISO), the Nex-5N would hold the flag.

Now, with the A6000 effectively moving the Nex-7 upstream, I would merely expect that at low ISO and down-sampled views, the A6000 would match the Nex-5N (or Nex-6), based on sensor size, and recent sensor technology. At higher ISO and high resolution application, the A6000 will hold the flag.

As to the E-Mx cameras - Victor already eluded to this: not all RAW is the same. Comparing across brands on an intermediate representation is somewhat misleading. Push both images through post and then compare. You will see that:

  • a) most of the differences get cleaned up in the post processing tool
  • b) the higher resolution sensor carries a number of advantages

Sure, the higher resolution sensor also puts more demands on glass, see the A7r/A7 debates, but if you compare 24Mp versus 16Mp and you seek IQ, the 24Mp naturally wins. If you only need web size, monitor size, or A4 prints, even 16Mp is more than you need

As to Sony JPG versus other mfgrs JPG processing: this is more myth than fact. Check the Fuji forum and their images - most were obtained in JPG flow, and are no different from Sony JPG. Same for m43 - I rarely see images that show any kind of superior algorithm. What I do see is more in camera tweaking. Apply some clarity, NR, pull up shadows in post on the Sony JPG and they are equal or better than the others. But that is 'post' on JPG, an oxymoron? Heck, even DPR commenting on this in their review - it is more common than you think. BUT IT IS NOT PART OF COMPARISONS

I use post on both RAW and JPG, and this allows me to pick and choose, as well as use the camera at its defaults. But I never use the 'defaults' as-is, they are simply not representative for the quality of the sensor (and lens, and subject). If reviewers do so, and make this their standard, so be it.

Per what I have seen in the JPG, the Oly impresses the most as in extracting detail, in JPG flow, from the small sensor. But I don't see how it betters the A6000 24Mp output and almost one stop faster - the exposure on the A6000 will often be superior, just for starters.

I have seen Nex-7 versus E-M5 comparisons, with the nod going to the Nex-7. Now, with the A6000 versus E-M1, we are comparing a dramatically improved Nex-7 (A6000) with an almost equivalent E-M5 (E-M1). And nothing ever changes, right?

I am not buying it - myths are just that.

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Henry

I'm not buying it either, Henry. This review begs the question about the honesty or the real intent of the reviewer.

Crowded pixel sensors such as the A6000 are going to have more noise and the reverse is true: witness the 12 mp A7s. The A6000 has more pixel crowding than the E-M5. For obvious reasons but perhaps also the side-effect of the A6000 having all those dedicated PDAF pixels and the E-M5 having none. The E-M5 is inferior to the A6000 in every other way...who would dispute that? And yet that fact was mostly ignored in this comparison. Q? - Was the E-M5 cherry picked especially to downgrade the A-6000? Disinformation?

It's not surprising that the M-43 Forum LOVES this article; witness this thread.... Amazing!

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53482204

And big surprise that Sony fans take issue with the article. No one would ever have seen that coming.

The EM5 was chosen because Mr. Laing owns it. He mentions trying to get an EM-10 from Olympus to make a more current comparison, but couldn't. If you take issue with an EM-10 comparison as well, need I remind you the recent thread in which you participated yourself where a guy considers switching from the EM-10 to the A6000 (then changes his mind). Both cameras are in a similar price backet and category, it begs a comparison.
I'm sure when DPR scores the A6000, the EM-10 will be mentionned. If it scores lower, people here will complain, no doubt (I'm guessing it will be scored very similarly though).

Laing could have used a newer E-M1 for the test. I did not participate in any discussion on M43 but you did yourself, on this very topic. One of the commonest excuses for the non-performance of the OMD cameras being made is that the M43 lenses are so vastly superior to E-mount, that no further comparison needs be made. Since you agreed to that statement in your M43 post, I need to remind you of the strawman argument.

Check out the DxO overall ratings; 82 vs 72 for A6000 vs OMD.

I only know Laing owns the E-M5. I guess he could have asked Oly the E-M1 but why when he could get the EM-10 which is more recent and more relevant to a comparison? You know the immediate rebuttal to a E-M1 comparison would be "but the A6000 is like half the price, it's more bang for the buck!"

There's no need for excuses for the "non-performance" of the O-MD, obviously the opposite is talked about in your own link in the OP. Smaller sensor coupled with superior imaging processing equals IQ on par with Sony APS-C. The same was evident with the 16MP NEX6 2 years ago.

Maybe you should mention on-sensor PDAF again? Maybe pixel density?

I disagree. You said, "Smaller sensor coupled with superior imaging processing equals IQ on par with Sony APS-C."

DxO scores reveal better performance with the A6000. And please don't use the standard M43 argument that M43 cameras should be excepted from all DxO testing because they are unfair. Some excuse that is!

better, but not that much to force any significant numbers to change their mind... the difference is small enough for people to pay attention to other things - optics, grips, x-sync, stabilization, look & feel, etc, etc... and when E-M1 users wants something of substance, they are not going for any APS-C soapboxes, but rather for A7* ...

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ethern1ty
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Who cares ?
In reply to captura, 5 months ago

I spend 15 minutes seeing a battle Olympus-Sony. Who cares ?

Here is few facts :

1. The tests is basically a demonstration of two bodies using two "crappy" lens (If compared against the Zeiss FE prime line up) in a single scene.

2. Results of DXO (1) show sthat the manufacturer ISO is off by +1 stop for the e-m5 (i.e. ISO camera :200, ISO measured : 107. etc.). Sony A6000 is at -0.25 (i.e. ISO camera : 200, ISO mesured : 160).

3. (from DXO) For each manufacturer ISOs, you will notice that the e-m5 and a600 has the same SNR (18%).

4. Sony A7 is a 24MP camera. E-M5 is a 16MP. CMOS pixels on the E-M5 are a bit smaller (EM-5 : ~255 pixels/mm. A6000 : ~266 pixels/mm).

This means (if the tests from DXO are accurate) that :

1. Tests made on similar ISO does not make any sense. The Dxo measured ISO on both cameras is way off (i.e. more than 1 stop !).

2. (via Dxo results) At same Manufacturer ISO, A6000 and E-M5 will produce the same amount of noise (even if there is a difference of 1.25 stops between Sony A6000 and Olympus E-M5 measured ISOs).

3. Using "crappy lens" does not help as the effective resolution is quite low. The color reproduction may vary between lenses.

(1) http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Sony-A6000-versus-Sony-A7R-versus-Olympus-OM-D-E-M5___942_917_793

(2) http://www.dxomark.com/About/In-depth-measurements/DxOMark-testing-protocols/ISO-sensitivity

FI, I am not a Sony boy (I own myself a Gh3 and A6000). Em-5 and A6000 are great cameras, saying that one is better than an other will not make you better photographer

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TrojMacReady
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Re: and since the OM-D overstates ISO's...
In reply to rmxa, 5 months ago

rmxa wrote:

TrojMacReady wrote:

TrojMacReady wrote:

  • different visual brightness and contrast
  • different whitebalance
  • no physical exposures (EXIF) to see if both sensors received the same amount of light

That third point can easily make 2/3 EV of a difference alone.

  • different output size

I'll wait for the a test that allows me to remove all of the above from the equation (besides the DXO test results).

The author states this in the article:

"The exposures used by each camera were identical here, so their results are absolutely comparable."

If we take his word for it, it could explain why the OM-D files are about 2/3 of a stop darker, similar to what the IR studio shots and other reviews suggest.

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TrojMacReady
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Re: Awesomely predictable
In reply to bluevellet, 5 months ago

bluevellet wrote:

spacemn wrote:

bluevellet wrote:

rmxa wrote:

TrojMacReady wrote:

TrojMacReady wrote:

  • different visual brightness and contrast
  • different whitebalance
  • no physical exposures (EXIF) to see if both sensors received the same amount of light

That third point can easily make 2/3 EV of a difference alone.

  • different output size

I'll wait for the a test that allows me to remove all of the above from the equation (besides the DXO test results).

The author states this in the article:

"The exposures used by each camera were identical here, so their results are absolutely comparable."

Shhh!

The E-M5 must have compensated with 2/3 of a stop slower shutter speeds because ISO and F number are the same. Gordon Laing has an agenda and he is obviously not revealing the shutter speed! He's just another m43 fanboy obviously, trying to ignore DXO numbers with that pretense of a real world test.

Ah, you are clueless The devil is in the detail. Of course the shutter speeds are different on those shots, as the ISO and F stops are the same. I bet the exposures are not the same. DXOMark ISO sensitivity comparisons usually are bang on the buck. You can keep your conspiracies to yourself and some DPReview person's empty statements.

It's funny you put so much faith in a setup with so many unknown variables and just someone's word rather than actual RAW files and EXIF information, yet try to discredit anything that doesn't fit your preconceved ideas. Quite hypocritical.

Both Dpreview actually said (based on a light meter, not their studio comparisons) and DXO measurements hint at the OM-D overstating ISO's.

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ethern1ty
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Re: Awesomely predictable
In reply to TrojMacReady, 5 months ago

TrojMacReady wrote:

bluevellet wrote:

spacemn wrote:

bluevellet wrote:

rmxa wrote:

TrojMacReady wrote:

TrojMacReady wrote:

  • different visual brightness and contrast
  • different whitebalance
  • no physical exposures (EXIF) to see if both sensors received the same amount of light

That third point can easily make 2/3 EV of a difference alone.

  • different output size

I'll wait for the a test that allows me to remove all of the above from the equation (besides the DXO test results).

The author states this in the article:

"The exposures used by each camera were identical here, so their results are absolutely comparable."

Shhh!

The E-M5 must have compensated with 2/3 of a stop slower shutter speeds because ISO and F number are the same. Gordon Laing has an agenda and he is obviously not revealing the shutter speed! He's just another m43 fanboy obviously, trying to ignore DXO numbers with that pretense of a real world test.

Ah, you are clueless The devil is in the detail. Of course the shutter speeds are different on those shots, as the ISO and F stops are the same. I bet the exposures are not the same. DXOMark ISO sensitivity comparisons usually are bang on the buck. You can keep your conspiracies to yourself and some DPReview person's empty statements.

We already have studio samples from Imaging Resource, which shows that the OM-D meters with 2/3 of a stop slower shutterspeeds at the same ISO and still comes out more noisy than the A6000. EXIF included this time (would be nice if Gordon doesn't strip it in the future).

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53490699

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captura
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Re: Who cares ?
In reply to ethern1ty, 5 months ago

ethern1ty wrote:

I spend 15 minutes seeing a battle Olympus-Sony. Who cares ?

Here is few facts :

1. The tests is basically a demonstration of two bodies using two "crappy" lens (If compared against the Zeiss FE prime line up) in a single scene.

2. Results of DXO (1) show sthat the manufacturer ISO is off by +1 stop for the e-m5 (i.e. ISO camera :200, ISO measured : 107. etc.). Sony A6000 is at -0.25 (i.e. ISO camera : 200, ISO mesured : 160).

3. (from DXO) For each manufacturer ISOs, you will notice that the e-m5 and a600 has the same SNR (18%).

4. Sony A7 is a 24MP camera. E-M5 is a 16MP. CMOS pixels on the E-M5 are a bit smaller (EM-5 : ~255 pixels/mm. A6000 : ~266 pixels/mm).

This means (if the tests from DXO are accurate) that :

1. Tests made on similar ISO does not make any sense. The Dxo measured ISO on both cameras is way off (i.e. more than 1 stop !).

2. (via Dxo results) At same Manufacturer ISO, A6000 and E-M5 will produce the same amount of noise (even if there is a difference of 1.25 stops between Sony A6000 and Olympus E-M5 measured ISOs).

3. Using "crappy lens" does not help as the effective resolution is quite low. The color reproduction may vary between lenses.

(1) http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Sony-A6000-versus-Sony-A7R-versus-Olympus-OM-D-E-M5___942_917_793

(2) http://www.dxomark.com/About/In-depth-measurements/DxOMark-testing-protocols/ISO-sensitivity

FI, I am not a Sony boy (I own myself a Gh3 and A6000). Em-5 and A6000 are great cameras, saying that one is better than an other will not make you better photographer

I agree, these comparisons are very questionable. But it is inevitable that they will be made. I wanted to see if anything new would surface. For the money, the A6000 offers a lot of features and performance. Including much better ergonomics.

I'm not sure about noise; this may yet become an issue for the A6000.

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kcamacho11
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Larger Sensor Always Wins...
In reply to captura, 5 months ago

M43 users stating that their m43 cameras with new generation APS-C sensors can match the high ISO of new generation APS-C cameras is foolishness. It is a way of trying to convince themselves and others that their cameras are superior or just as good, when they are not.

That is not to say that they are not capable cameras, because they certainly are.

But IMO, m43 users are the most delusional in this entire website. You NEVER see talks of Nikon D7100 users saying they can match the image quality and high ISO of a Nikon D610, D800, etc. I have yet to see any NEX-6/NEX-7 users say that the high ISO performance of those cameras can match or be better than the A7/A7R. Yet, you always see Olympus E-M1/5 comparisons vs Fuji X-Trans/Sony NEX/_______(name new APS-C camera).

Full Frame >>> APS-C >>>> M43 >>>>> 1"

It will ALWAYS be this way, no other way around it.

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captura
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Re: Larger Sensor Always Wins...
In reply to kcamacho11, 5 months ago

kcamacho11 wrote:

M43 users stating that their m43 cameras with new generation APS-C sensors can match the high ISO of new generation APS-C cameras is foolishness. It is a way of trying to convince themselves and others that their cameras are superior or just as good, when they are not.

That is not to say that they are not capable cameras, because they certainly are.

But IMO, m43 users are the most delusional in this entire website. You NEVER see talks of Nikon D7100 users saying they can match the image quality and high ISO of a Nikon D610, D800, etc. I have yet to see any NEX-6/NEX-7 users say that the high ISO performance of those cameras can match or be better than the A7/A7R. Yet, you always see Olympus E-M1/5 comparisons vs Fuji X-Trans/Sony NEX/_______(name new APS-C camera).

Full Frame >>> APS-C >>>> M43 >>>>> 1"

It will ALWAYS be this way, no other way around it.

Did you mean to say, "M43 users stating that their m43 cameras with new generation m43 sensors can match the high ISO of new generation APS-C cameras is foolishness?"

I wonder if their forum has a bunch of specialists who are tasked into whipping gullible members into this frenzy. Mind -control practitioners, anybody?

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kcamacho11
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Re: Larger Sensor Always Wins...
In reply to captura, 5 months ago

captura wrote:

Did you mean to say, "M43 users stating that their m43 cameras with new generation m43 sensors can match the high ISO of new generation APS-C cameras is foolishness?"

Yes I did.

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ethern1ty
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Re: Larger Sensor Always Wins...
In reply to kcamacho11, 5 months ago

kcamacho11 wrote:

M43 users stating that their m43 cameras with new generation APS-C sensors can match the high ISO of new generation APS-C cameras is foolishness. It is a way of trying to convince themselves and others that their cameras are superior or just as good, when they are not.

That is not to say that they are not capable cameras, because they certainly are.

But IMO, m43 users are the most delusional in this entire website. You NEVER see talks of Nikon D7100 users saying they can match the image quality and high ISO of a Nikon D610, D800, etc. I have yet to see any NEX-6/NEX-7 users say that the high ISO performance of those cameras can match or be better than the A7/A7R. Yet, you always see Olympus E-M1/5 comparisons vs Fuji X-Trans/Sony NEX/_______(name new APS-C camera).

Full Frame >>> APS-C >>>> M43 >>>>> 1"

It will ALWAYS be this way, no other way around it.

Not really. It really depends on : 1. Type of sensor 2. Photosite pixel size (For CMOS sensor)

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virgil1612
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Re: Sony A6000 vs Olympus OMD EM-1/5/10
In reply to captura, 5 months ago

There is another comparison here (http://dc.pconline.com.cn/438/4381617_3.html) which is more in line with what is to be expected. How can results be so different? How obvious is that a modern m43 sensor cannot beat a modern aps-c sensor? I had only heard good things about Cameralabs up until now...

Virgil.

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captura
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Re: Sony A6000 vs Olympus OMD EM-1/5/10
In reply to virgil1612, 5 months ago

virgil1612 wrote:

There is another comparison here (http://dc.pconline.com.cn/438/4381617_3.html) which is more in line with what is to be expected. How can results be so different? How obvious is that a modern m43 sensor cannot beat a modern aps-c sensor? I had only heard good things about Cameralabs up until now...

Virgil.

Agreed. Wonder what's really going on behind the scenes.

Steve

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MJF31
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Re: Sony A6000 vs Olympus OMD EM-1/5/10
In reply to captura, 5 months ago

captura wrote:

JunzInc wrote:

Just FYI - We have got another Image quality analysis over at imaging resource. Not sure if it was linked here.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/sony-a6000/sony-a6000A.HTM#IQC

Regards

JM

Thank you for this! The first thing that struck me was the large amount of noise in the red comparison photos of the A6000 image, beside the one from the Fuji XM-1, GX7 and NEX-6. Is noise going to become a big deal for shooting with this new Sony? These shots were only ISO 100!

Steve

Maybe it's my monitor, but that didn't seem noisy.  It seemed like it was picking up every bit of detail.

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captura
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Re: Sony A6000 vs Olympus OMD EM-1/5/10
In reply to captura, 5 months ago

captura wrote:

virgil1612 wrote:

There is another comparison here (http://dc.pconline.com.cn/438/4381617_3.html) which is more in line with what is to be expected. How can results be so different? How obvious is that a modern m43 sensor cannot beat a modern aps-c sensor? I had only heard good things about Cameralabs up until now...

Virgil.

Agreed. Wonder what's really going on behind the scenes.

Steve

Have you got a translated version for this?

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