WOW what a game changer A7s

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
neil holmes
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,539Gear list
Like?
WOW what a game changer A7s
8 months ago

http://new.livestream.com/accounts/7601984/events/2850315

ISO 409 000    4k video to a recorder and full HD using the whole sensor!

What a camera for theatre and live music!

 neil holmes's gear list:neil holmes's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7 Sony Alpha 7 Canon EF 135mm f/2.0L USM Canon TS-E 24mm f/3.5L II Sony FE 55mm F1.8 +15 more
Sony Alpha 7S
If you believe there are incorrect tags, please send us this post using our feedback form.
pew pew
Contributing MemberPosts: 645Gear list
Like?
Re: WOW what a game changer A7s
In reply to neil holmes, 8 months ago

theres great features, but others not so great like contrast af only and 4k in an external device. I guess this camera is geared toward the enthusiast videographers that rig their cameras.

 pew pew's gear list:pew pew's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-3N Canon EOS 100D
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
neil holmes
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,539Gear list
Like?
Re: WOW what a game changer A7s
In reply to pew pew, 8 months ago

pew pew wrote:

theres great features, but others not so great like contrast af only and 4k in an external device. I guess this camera is geared toward the enthusiast videographers that rig their cameras.

I think it will sell to a LOT of low light low life's.....would love one but since I am an amateur with no money left, and am happy with my A7 (good at ISO 8000 and higher), the A7s is not (yet) for me.

I think it will sell to a lot of pros that shoot low light (not sports) and for video ....a paparazzi camera indeed.

Like the A7 and A7R will be good with manual focus lenses so the AF issue wont matter too much for a lot of people.

For movies, while it remains to be seen, might be the best yet (at this level) and for some things much better than the GH4 (for others worse).

I see a lot of lower level video pros having both an A7s AND a GH4.

 neil holmes's gear list:neil holmes's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7 Sony Alpha 7 Canon EF 135mm f/2.0L USM Canon TS-E 24mm f/3.5L II Sony FE 55mm F1.8 +15 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Ontario Gone
Senior MemberPosts: 3,809Gear list
Like?
Re: WOW what a game changer A7s
In reply to neil holmes, 8 months ago

neil holmes wrote:

http://new.livestream.com/accounts/7601984/events/2850315

ISO 409 000 4k video to a recorder and full HD using the whole sensor!

What a camera for theatre and live music!

I would like to see 4k take off, it makes prices on TVs drop, and that will usher in more content from the movie industry. Unfortunately i think Sony is going to drop the ball here for a couple reasons. For one, 12mp is going backwards for stills, as is evident by all the people who forked over extra for the A7r. Resolution is nice to have. The second thing is the price. It is obviously the newest thing from Sony, it's 4k, no way it will be cheaper than the A7/r, and that is not including the must have external recorder for 4k.

So pay more for a body with slower AF and less resolution for stills? Then pay even more to actually record 4k? All this when the GH4 is 4k capable out of the box at $1700, and the AX100 is $2k. I officially place my bet at the table, im gonna go with $3000 for body, and another $1000 for recorder. 4 grand total. I wonder how many consumers will buy that? Im with you Neil, i won't spend that kind of money but thankfully there are much cheaper options for 4k.

-- hide signature --

"Run to the light, Carol Anne. Run as fast as you can!"

 Ontario Gone's gear list:Ontario Gone's gear list
Nikon D7000 Canon EOS 70D Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm f/1.8G Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G Canon EF 40mm f/2.8 STM
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Siobhan A
Forum MemberPosts: 80
Like?
Not Cinema 4K though
In reply to neil holmes, 8 months ago

I have been reading that it cannot shot at 4k alone.  It cannot shoot Cinema HD even with an external recorder.  Cinema HD is the professional standard and what the Sony projector at works is capable of displaying.

I am curious what the rolling shutter will be like.  The AX100 is awful but does not need an external recorder for 4K.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Siobhan A
Forum MemberPosts: 80
Like?
Re: WOW what a game changer A7s
In reply to neil holmes, 8 months ago

neil holmes wrote:

I see a lot of lower level video pros having both an A7s AND a GH4.

Would not GH4 owners instead use the F/.095 lenses instead or F/1.2 lens and metabones adapters?  The GH4 appears to use higher bit rates and output at 4K with out a recorder.  The GH4 internal output is the equivalent of -can be converted to-  10 bit 1080p 4:4:4 while the A7s is only 1080p 4:2:0 and 8 bit.  I am finding some very interesting articles on all this.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
pew pew
Contributing MemberPosts: 645Gear list
Like?
Re: WOW what a game changer A7s
In reply to Ontario Gone, 8 months ago

theres some sources that put it at 1699$ which is cheaper then the g4, a FF camera with +400.000 iso, great dynamic range, no line skipping, no pixel binning,S-log2 with option for 4k, seems pretty desirable for enthusiast / semi pro videographers.

at EOSHD they seem pretty excited about the g4/a7s. Panasonic has the edge on the internal recorder, sony in the FF sensor.

both cameras look good, each with its advantages, but its clear that the sony released this camera to compete with the g4, soon there will be a canon 4k too competing for the same market.

 pew pew's gear list:pew pew's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-3N Canon EOS 100D
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
neil holmes
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,539Gear list
Like?
Re: WOW what a game changer A7s
In reply to Ontario Gone, 8 months ago

Ontario Gone wrote:

neil holmes wrote:

http://new.livestream.com/accounts/7601984/events/2850315

ISO 409 000 4k video to a recorder and full HD using the whole sensor!

What a camera for theatre and live music!

I would like to see 4k take off, it makes prices on TVs drop, and that will usher in more content from the movie industry. Unfortunately i think Sony is going to drop the ball here for a couple reasons. For one, 12mp is going backwards for stills, as is evident by all the people who forked over extra for the A7r. Resolution is nice to have. The second thing is the price. It is obviously the newest thing from Sony, it's 4k, no way it will be cheaper than the A7/r, and that is not including the must have external recorder for 4k.

No, 12mp is fine for intended high ISO use.....the  A7 is great at ISOs like 6400 and even 12800 but this will be much better still.    People who want the res can have the A7R (which is better at high ISO than 95% of cameras anyway...this is for people who want the highest (currently).

Price seems like it will be very competitive ...and seems like about the same as the A7.

Don't confuse this with 12mp APSC or M4/3 (APSC 12mp DSLRs are mostly ok still).....12mp new FF mirrorless should be  a very different level.

So pay more for a body with slower AF and less resolution for stills? Then pay even more to actually record 4k? All this when the GH4 is 4k capable out of the box at $1700, and the AX100 is $2k. I officially place my bet at the table, im gonna go with $3000 for body, and another $1000 for recorder. 4 grand total. I wonder how many consumers will buy that? Im with you Neil, i won't spend that kind of money but thankfully there are much cheaper options for 4k.

-- hide signature --

"Run to the light, Carol Anne. Run as fast as you can!"

Nikon D4s is only 16mp and sells for over $6000.    This will be as good for high ISO as that for stills and much much better for video.

The Nikon AF will be far better of course but the Sony will be fine and it seems the price will be about the same as the A7.

There should be less moire on the A7s than the GH4.......GH4 will be a great video camera, so will the A7s....I would not mind either if given to me but I would prefer the A7s for what I like to video (if it is as good as I expect).

I will be sticking with the A7 for now as it is good enough but theA7s is very tempting.

I can see a lot of people having both a A7s and a GH4,  Another group will have a A7s and an A7R.

 neil holmes's gear list:neil holmes's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7 Sony Alpha 7 Canon EF 135mm f/2.0L USM Canon TS-E 24mm f/3.5L II Sony FE 55mm F1.8 +15 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
osv
osv
Senior MemberPosts: 2,001
Like?
Re: WOW what a game changer A7s
In reply to pew pew, 8 months ago

when sony puts this sensor inside of a real video camera, with a zoomable lens that has a real zoom rocker switch, it's going to make a lot more sense.

the a7s is trying to serve two masters: stills and video... something has to give... 12mp says that it's weak for stills.

no parfocal video lens availability says that it's weak sauce for event videographers... no zoomable lens with a rocker switch sucks for, say, shooting weddings, although the super low light capability will be very helpful.

gotta give sony massive props for innovation, nobody else even comes close.

sony says: no risk, no reward.

what say you?

-- hide signature --

dan

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
exdeejjjaaaa
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,841Gear list
Like?
Re: WOW what a game changer A7s
In reply to neil holmes, 8 months ago

neil holmes wrote:

Nikon D4s is only 16mp and sells for over $6000.

Df sells for less

 exdeejjjaaaa's gear list:exdeejjjaaaa's gear list
Olympus E-M1 Sony Alpha 7 Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH Panasonic Leica DG Macro-Elmarit 45mm F2.8 ASPH OIS Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH +23 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
neil holmes
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,539Gear list
Like?
Re: WOW what a game changer A7s
In reply to exdeejjjaaaa, 8 months ago

exdeejjjaaaa wrote:

neil holmes wrote:

Nikon D4s is only 16mp and sells for over $6000.

Df sells for less

And has NO video.

Video is a huge part of what this camera is about though I am sure some will buy it for its high ISO stills with manual focus lenses as 12mp is still enough for most uses....indeed if you need a photo at ISO above 12800 (for me anyway), you are not likely going to be printing at a size that 12mp is too small for.

 neil holmes's gear list:neil holmes's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7 Sony Alpha 7 Canon EF 135mm f/2.0L USM Canon TS-E 24mm f/3.5L II Sony FE 55mm F1.8 +15 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
TrojMacReady
Senior MemberPosts: 8,534
Like?
Re: WOW what a game changer A7s
In reply to exdeejjjaaaa, 8 months ago

exdeejjjaaaa wrote:

neil holmes wrote:

Nikon D4s is only 16mp and sells for over $6000.

Df sells for less

A lot still,sensor more like the oldef D4 sensor and no video.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
exdeejjjaaaa
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,841Gear list
Like?
Re: WOW what a game changer A7s
In reply to neil holmes, 8 months ago

neil holmes wrote:

exdeejjjaaaa wrote:

neil holmes wrote:

Nikon D4s is only 16mp and sells for over $6000.

Df sells for less

And has NO video.

indeed, what a pity...

 exdeejjjaaaa's gear list:exdeejjjaaaa's gear list
Olympus E-M1 Sony Alpha 7 Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH Panasonic Leica DG Macro-Elmarit 45mm F2.8 ASPH OIS Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH +23 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
exdeejjjaaaa
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,841Gear list
Like?
Re: WOW what a game changer A7s
In reply to TrojMacReady, 8 months ago

TrojMacReady wrote:

exdeejjjaaaa wrote:

neil holmes wrote:

Nikon D4s is only 16mp and sells for over $6000.

Df sells for less

A lot still,sensor more like the oldef D4 sensor

sensors in D4, D4s, Df are close  performance wise

http://home.comcast.net/~NikonD70/Charts/PDR.htm#Df,D4,D4S

 exdeejjjaaaa's gear list:exdeejjjaaaa's gear list
Olympus E-M1 Sony Alpha 7 Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH Panasonic Leica DG Macro-Elmarit 45mm F2.8 ASPH OIS Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH +23 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Ontario Gone
Senior MemberPosts: 3,809Gear list
Like?
Re: WOW what a game changer A7s
In reply to neil holmes, 8 months ago

neil holmes wrote:

No, 12mp is fine for intended high ISO use.....the A7 is great at ISOs like 6400 and even 12800 but this will be much better still. People who want the res can have the A7R (which is better at high ISO than 95% of cameras anyway...this is for people who want the highest (currently).

ISO performance at common ISO shouldn't change too much. I get the feeling you are suggesting that the lower resolution will specifically make noise performance better. It won't. Noise performance is about total light gathered, and the A7/r and A7s gather the same amount of light. Perhaps with a newer sensor they may have tweaked something minor, but it will be just that, minor.

One look comparing the D800 and D4 will show you resolution makes no difference when comparing equal portions of a frame. Nobody is forcing an A7r owner to crop to a pixel level, so the noise will be no worse than a similar sensor of less rez. This has been shown countless times. Compare the A57 to A58 to A77, at the same viewing sizes they are nearly identical.

Price seems like it will be very competitive ...and seems like about the same as the A7.

Don't confuse this with 12mp APSC or M4/3 (APSC 12mp DSLRs are mostly ok still).....12mp new FF mirrorless should be a very different level.

The lack of downsampling may help resolution, the higher ISO will help avoid underexposure. Im not familiar if the A7/r uses line skipping, if they do, then yes video noise will be better on the S but stills IQ will likely fall behind since it's only 12mp. I think it will be a big hit with people who have several grand to drop on just a video camera, but anybody serious about stills is likely to need something else too. Regardless how it does, i think every 4k unit that comes out is good for all of us, it will pull 4k TV prices lower which will usher in more content for us to watch.

-- hide signature --

"Run to the light, Carol Anne. Run as fast as you can!"

 Ontario Gone's gear list:Ontario Gone's gear list
Nikon D7000 Canon EOS 70D Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm f/1.8G Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G Canon EF 40mm f/2.8 STM
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
neil holmes
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,539Gear list
Like?
Re: WOW what a game changer A7s
In reply to Ontario Gone, 8 months ago

Ontario Gone wrote:

neil holmes wrote:

No, 12mp is fine for intended high ISO use.....the A7 is great at ISOs like 6400 and even 12800 but this will be much better still. People who want the res can have the A7R (which is better at high ISO than 95% of cameras anyway...this is for people who want the highest (currently).

ISO performance at common ISO shouldn't change too much. I get the feeling you are suggesting that the lower resolution will specifically make noise performance better. It won't. Noise performance is about total light gathered, and the A7/r and A7s gather the same amount of light. Perhaps with a newer sensor they may have tweaked something minor, but it will be just that, minor.

No, I think it will be very very good for high ISO because it appears to be from what Sony has shown and a larger pixel count does not necessarily mean a better (or worse) high ISO performance.

The DF, D4s seem to both be about the best at high ISO, no reason to think this will not be also (and maybe a bit better with newer tech also).

One look comparing the D800 and D4 will show you resolution makes no difference when comparing equal portions of a frame. Nobody is forcing an A7r owner to crop to a pixel level, so the noise will be no worse than a similar sensor of less rez. This has been shown countless times. Compare the A57 to A58 to A77, at the same viewing sizes they are nearly identical.

I do not think pixel count matters too much but it does seem the high res sensor FF cameras are among the best but some of the newer lesser pixel count FF cameras are a bit better (only in terms of high ISO).

That Sony have put such ISO as 409 000 tells me it should be great at 12800.

Price seems like it will be very competitive ...and seems like about the same as the A7.

Don't confuse this with 12mp APSC or M4/3 (APSC 12mp DSLRs are mostly ok still).....12mp new FF mirrorless should be a very different level.

The lack of downsampling may help resolution, the higher ISO will help avoid underexposure. Im not familiar if the A7/r uses line skipping, if they do, then yes video noise will be better on the S but stills IQ will likely fall behind since it's only 12mp. I think it will be a big hit with people who have several grand to drop on just a video camera, but anybody serious about stills is likely to need something else too. Regardless how it does, i think every 4k unit that comes out is good for all of us, it will pull 4k TV prices lower which will usher in more content for us to watch.

It is clearly 12mp for video ...the video will be much better than the current A7 (and I like the A7 video in low light).   But the 12mp size is also fine for stills in all but the most extreme use.

I think its stills will also be nce.....not for the landscape shooter (but there is an A7R for that).

AS I said, I can see a few people with both an A7s and A7R and video people with a A7s and GH4.

"Run to the light, Carol Anne. Run as fast as you can!"

 neil holmes's gear list:neil holmes's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7 Sony Alpha 7 Canon EF 135mm f/2.0L USM Canon TS-E 24mm f/3.5L II Sony FE 55mm F1.8 +15 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
buellom
Regular MemberPosts: 487Gear list
Like?
Re: WOW again ...
In reply to osv, 8 months ago

... a game changer? I even can't count anymore how many game changer Sony introduced. The issue is, nothing seems to have changed the game ...

Don't get me wrong, I really like that Sony tries to push things forward and I won't deny that Sony is inovative. But it's hard to change the game and until now I don't think that anything Sony introduced was disruptive to the market.

-- hide signature --

********************
www.freude-am-licht.de
********************

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Ontario Gone
Senior MemberPosts: 3,809Gear list
Like?
Re: WOW what a game changer A7s
In reply to neil holmes, 8 months ago

neil holmes wrote:

neil holmes wrote:

.....the A7 is great at ISOs like 6400 and even 12800 but this will be much better still.

It seems the above statement contradicts your below statement, no? Either you think it will be better still, or it will be the same. If you think ISO performance will be better, im just wondering why? We have many examples that resolution doesn't significantly impact noise performance, so aside from this being a slightly newer generation sensor, what other reason is there? How did you get to the idea of "much better" ?

No, I think it will be very very good for high ISO because it appears to be from what Sony has shown and a larger pixel count does not necessarily mean a better (or worse) high ISO performance.

I do not think pixel count matters too much but it does seem the high res sensor FF cameras are among the best but some of the newer lesser pixel count FF cameras are a bit better (only in terms of high ISO).

If newer lower rez sensors are better, it isn't because of resolution, it's because of a newer sensor tech as you mentioned before. This isn't necessarily the case though, as one only need check DXO for an A58 vs A77 comparison. The A77 scored 48 points higher in the ISO score, despite being a much older sensor and having higher resolution.

That Sony have put such ISO as 409 000 tells me it should be great at 12800.

Again, i hope it is better, but chances are it will be nearly identical. I'll tell you the reason they offer such a high ISO compared to the A7/r. Video is always full screen. Its obvious sony designed the S as a video first camera, and even 4k video displayed in all it's glory (in 8mp) won't show noise like a 24/36mp photo will from an A7/r. Noise is not as noticeable in video, so they offer higher ISO for a video made camera.

It is clearly 12mp for video ...the video will be much better than the current A7 (and I like the A7 video in low light). But the 12mp size is also fine for stills in all but the most extreme use.

I would bet it will indeed be much better for video IQ, but unfortunately it will cost a lot more for 4k. ImagingResource explained the reason they don't offer 4k in camera is a lack of processing power and too much heat. So im wondering how it will record 1080p? Recording full 4k then downsampling will still produce too much heat, downsampling after the fact does nothing to cool the sensor. Will they simply use a 2mp crop of the sensor for 1080p to reduce heat output? If so, there goes both your WA and superior ISO performance.

It would appear to get the video IQ boost so many are hoping for, the external recorder is a must, which means the price isn't too attractive.

-- hide signature --

"Run to the light, Carol Anne. Run as fast as you can!"

 Ontario Gone's gear list:Ontario Gone's gear list
Nikon D7000 Canon EOS 70D Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm f/1.8G Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G Canon EF 40mm f/2.8 STM
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Ontario Gone
Senior MemberPosts: 3,809Gear list
Like?
Re: WOW again ...
In reply to buellom, 8 months ago

buellom wrote:

... a game changer? I even can't count anymore how many game changer Sony introduced. The issue is, nothing seems to have changed the game ...

Don't get me wrong, I really like that Sony tries to push things forward and I won't deny that Sony is inovative. But it's hard to change the game and until now I don't think that anything Sony introduced was disruptive to the market.

I would like to see limits pushed, unfortunately i don't think it's happening with the S. As i replied to neil, the problem is the external recorder, it's not going to be cheap. If there is too much heat and not enough processing power for in camera 4k, as ImagingResource says, then surely it can't compress 4k into 1080p in camera, so how will they record 1080p? Likely a sensor crop, and if that's the case, the portion being used will be less than a GH4's full sensor readout, which means longer crop and worse ISO performance than a GH4. I would also bet the farm the GH4 is cheaper than what the A7s launches at, and it has the option of 4k in camera.

Competition is good, i wish multiple 4k cameras could push the limits but i honestly have no idea why Sony would do this.

Just FYI, the screen capture of the IR article is below.

Neil, can you spot the hidden easter egg in that screenshot? It's something you would find useful.

-- hide signature --

"Run to the light, Carol Anne. Run as fast as you can!"

 Ontario Gone's gear list:Ontario Gone's gear list
Nikon D7000 Canon EOS 70D Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm f/1.8G Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G Canon EF 40mm f/2.8 STM
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
D Cox
Senior MemberPosts: 8,660
Like?
Re: WOW what a game changer A7s
In reply to Ontario Gone, 8 months ago

Ontario Gone wrote:

neil holmes wrote:

No, 12mp is fine for intended high ISO use.....the A7 is great at ISOs like 6400 and even 12800 but this will be much better still. People who want the res can have the A7R (which is better at high ISO than 95% of cameras anyway...this is for people who want the highest (currently).

ISO performance at common ISO shouldn't change too much.

Assuming that by "ISO performance" you mean noise levels, how much is "too much"?

I get the feeling you are suggesting that the lower resolution will specifically make noise performance better. It won't. Noise performance is about total light gathered, and the A7/r and A7s gather the same amount of light. Perhaps with a newer sensor they may have tweaked something minor, but it will be just that, minor.

Noise levels depend on pixel size, so at the same size of sensor and the same ISO setting and the same lens, the lower resolution will give less noise.

From Sony's press release:

"With a 12.2 effective megapixel count the size of each individual photoreceptive site is significantly boosted to increase their light-gathering power. Coupled with the camera’s powerful BIONZ X processing engine, this reduces image noise while increasing effective sensitivity range of the α7S"

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads