Sutter Shock? Pictures from the holy land. Locked

Started 4 months ago | Discussions
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Lumixdude
Senior MemberPosts: 2,782Gear list
Re: Nevermind
In reply to Pixnat2, 4 months ago

Have you ever heard of the nocebo effect you're having by saying shutter shock is real and then why a company would do something for a mostly non-existent problem?

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Pixnat2
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,197Gear list
Re: Nevermind
In reply to Lumixdude, 4 months ago

Lumixdude wrote:

Have you ever heard of the nocebo effect you're having by saying shutter shock is real and then why a company would do something for a mostly non-existent problem?

Do you think it's the case?

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Frederic
http://azurphoto.com/

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Ontario Gone
Senior MemberPosts: 2,656Gear list
Re: What is your point?
In reply to Pixnat2, 4 months ago

Pixnat2 wrote:

What is the point of denying the existence of possible small blur due to shutter vibrations at certain shutterspeeds?

I'm curious to know your motivations?

I can answer that, if not for all, then for many of them. Because they haven't had any other choice. I have tested my GX7 and it is a bit sharper with E shutter on. Do i care that my shots are a smidge softer when choose to use M shutter? Hell no, because i have an alternative that will fix it and i rarely have to use M shutter. Olympus users don't have that option, and it sucks to have to admit you are stuck with a flaw. Some are more open minded and those are the ones praising the new FW addition. It's no different than the guy who claims his 6 year old camera has noise performance that's just as good as the new gear. People tend to discredit the flaws that threaten the value of their investment.

And another question : why do you think Olmypus did include the 0s antischock option in E-M1s FW 1.3?

Another easy answer. BC shutter shock is real. 

-- hide signature --

"Run to the light, Carol Anne. Run as fast as you can!"

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XMN
XMN
Junior MemberPosts: 39Gear list
Re: Just the facts, man, just the facts.....
In reply to amalric, 4 months ago

amalric wrote:

Guy Parsons wrote:

I have a video of the E-PL5 shutter at 1,000 fps and there's a huge amount of bounce as the initial shutter closure happens, also I have made audio recording of the noise the mechanism makes and there's plenty of vibration going on that carries over into the exposure period. I showed those in a recent shock thread, but no time right now to find the links again. You just have to believe.

In my case though I have not noticed any shock results but then I do not go looking for them. I now mostly use the 12-40mm on my E-PL5 and I am sure that helps dampen any shock problems due to the extra mass.

In fact the E-PL5, which I had briefly, had indeed a vibration problem which affected it between 1/100 and 1/200, but it was v. visible, and it was documented almost immediately. I don't notice it with the PM1 which should have the same shutter generation, so perhaps O. cured it.

The E-M5 never had it, in fact it has the gentlest shutter by comparison. Vibrations are always possible, and have been for half a century since the actuations became much harder than the sweet Compurs.

Of course it's the generalizing that is stupid, not mentioning the exceptions. If vibrations ruined the shot at all times, a camera maker might as well kill himself

Instead it v. easy to ruin a shot with a light mirrorless camera, despite the IBIS, for not holding it well, or having the shakes, but what deepens the stupidity, is that I have never seen anybody accepting user error. That's human nature, but stupidity nevertheless. So to me the whole debate is flawed.

Am.

See my new blog in the sign: it's fun!

To me, there are 2 main groups in this SS debate, and they are not just the simple 'SS believers' and 'SS deniers'.

1º group: 'I have SS, i am not doing anything wrong, you surely have it too, you just don't know how to search for it'

2º group: 'I don't have it, i know how to search for it, you surelly don't have too, you just don't know how to old a camera'

This is almost polarized in this two almost fanatic groups when for me, there are at least 4 groups:

1 - People that really have SS

2 - Peolple that really don't have SS

3 - People that think they have SS but just don't know how to old a camera

4 - People that think they don't have SS but just don't know how to search for it (or don't care for it)

I conced that at least this 4 groups exist. Extremists positions such as: "if i see it/don't see it, you must/must not also" don't cut it for me.

Sample variation in cameras DOES exist. Is that so hard to believe?

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53439799

 XMN's gear list:XMN's gear list
Olympus E-500 Olympus E-30 Olympus E-M1 Olympus Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4.0-5.6 Olympus Zuiko Digital 14-54mm 1:2.8-3.5 +1 more
Kameraphil
Regular MemberPosts: 432
Re: Just the facts, man, just the facts.....
In reply to XMN, 4 months ago

I completely agree with XMN. It's sheer ignorance and stupidity to go and bash people who have experience different from one's own.

Pixnat2
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,197Gear list
Could I add one category?
In reply to XMN, 4 months ago

XMN wrote:

To me, there are 2 main groups in this SS debate, and they are not just the simple 'SS believers' and 'SS deniers'.

1º group: 'I have SS, i am not doing anything wrong, you surely have it too, you just don't know how to search for it'

2º group: 'I don't have it, i know how to search for it, you surelly don't have too, you just don't know how to old a camera'

This is almost polarized in this two almost fanatic groups when for me, there are at least 4 groups:

1 - People that really have SS

2 - Peolple that really don't have SS

3 - People that think they have SS but just don't know how to old a camera

4 - People that think they don't have SS but just don't know how to search for it (or don't care for it)

I conced that at least this 4 groups exist. Extremists positions such as: "if i see it/don't see it, you must/must not also" don't cut it for me.

Sample variation in cameras DOES exist. Is that so hard to believe?

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53439799

5 - People who had SS but never worried about it. Then upgraded to FW 1.3, saw with their own eyes the benefits of the 0s antishock, and said thank you to Olympus for this nice option.

Those people don't care about what causes the blur, but are happy it's gone in their camera, and know that samples variations is a fact

I'm in.

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Frederic
http://azurphoto.com/

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Tony Rogers
Contributing MemberPosts: 556Gear list
Re: Sutter Shock? Pictures from the holy land.
In reply to photohounds, 4 months ago

photohounds wrote:

Recently I waited on a car park roof for a course to start.
.
Having a few minutes, and EM-1, the Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 attached and some dim light, and an unusual (for me) view, I started shooting.
.
After a few moments I thought "the Shutter shock voodoo" so .. I switched to Shutter priority and set it to that "unholy" 1/200th of a second to see if I could detect any. I snapped away nonchalantly .. hand held, with a bag on my back bracketing away.

I have posted 30+ new pictures most at 1/200th. Also, most are straight out of camera, thought I did have some fun with a few.
.
They can be zoomed full size to search for shutter shock and exif data is there to check the speed used foir the image is in the unholy range.
.
I would like to hear if anyone sees an image that displays the shutter choice poltergeist as I cannot see it.
.
Not a bad way to waste 1/2 an hour or so ..

-- hide signature --

Well designed gear performs better for longer than well marketed gear.
Pics:
http://photohounds.smugmug.com/
Oly and other .. Gear test samples:
http://photohounds.smugmug.com/Gear-tests
ShutterShock poltergeist search ..
http://photohounds.smugmug.com/Gear-tests/More-Shutter-Shock-debumking/

Shutter shock occurs in some circumstances and affects different equipment set-ups in different ways. Some combinations don't show it. Great. Some do.

When I got my Pany 45-175 and used it on my G3, the issue was amazingly awful (this and this   were early threads). It improved but was not eliminated, by a firmware update. I avoided the problem by shooting at 1/400 or faster. The Pany 100-300 showed the problem to a lesser extent.

The E-M1 is an improvement over the G3. And the 12-40 lens is excellent. I have not seen shutter shock with this combination. This may be to do with the short focal length. The 50-200 SWD is similarly good. I didn't notice any shutter shock until I compared the results with the 1.3 firmware.

The 100-300 does show shutter shock on the E-M1 and the 1.3 firmware significantly improves it.

In the spectrum of conditions (equipment + exposure parameters + focus distance) your chosen combination (E-M1 + 12-40 + 1/200 sec) is very unlikely to show any shutter shock. Other combinations are not so lucky. If your chosen subject and equipment don't get you into the area where the problem occurs, it won't be an issue for you. It is not an issue for some subjects. Usually, it is only a problem where you're interested in pixel level sharpness and are cropping hard. E.g. wildlife - fur, feathers etc. This probably doesn't apply to a concrete building.

It has been an issue for me with long lenses and I have avoided it by using fast shutter speeds (< 1/500) but this is less than ideal in some light conditions where I will be forced to go to higher Iso.

The 1.3 firmware produces significantly better results with shutter speeds between 1/60 and 1/200 with the Panasonic 45-175 and the Panasonic 100-300 at the long ends on a tripod. Handheld results with IBIS are also improved to the extent that, blur that I previously put down to the limitation of IBIS (say 175mm at 1/160 sec), I would now conclude were substantially caused by shutter shock. My opinion of IBIS has risen significantly. It is amazing.

The reason why those of us concluded that there was a shutter shock issue was that the problem went away with longer as well as shorter exposures than the problem range (typically 1/60 to 1/250 but worst around 1/100 to 1/160). If it was a technique issue, the longer exposures would not have been better. This was later confirmed by comparisons using electronic shutters in the problem shutter speed range.

Looking for shutter shock is a waste of life! It is particularly useless if you look in the wrong place! If you shoot a combination that causes you problems (typically long focal length, fine detail subject and problem exposure time) you can be happy that it can be resolved by Panasonic's electronic shutter or the E-M1's 0 sec shutter delay.

I don't have shutter shock problems any more. Perhaps my technique magically improved overnight when I put the new firmware on? Yes, that'll be it...

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Olympus E-M1
XMN
XMN
Junior MemberPosts: 39Gear list
Re: Could I add one category?
In reply to Pixnat2, 4 months ago

Pixnat2 wrote:

XMN wrote:

To me, there are 2 main groups in this SS debate, and they are not just the simple 'SS believers' and 'SS deniers'.

1º group: 'I have SS, i am not doing anything wrong, you surely have it too, you just don't know how to search for it'

2º group: 'I don't have it, i know how to search for it, you surelly don't have too, you just don't know how to old a camera'

This is almost polarized in this two almost fanatic groups when for me, there are at least 4 groups:

1 - People that really have SS

2 - Peolple that really don't have SS

3 - People that think they have SS but just don't know how to old a camera

4 - People that think they don't have SS but just don't know how to search for it (or don't care for it)

I conced that at least this 4 groups exist. Extremists positions such as: "if i see it/don't see it, you must/must not also" don't cut it for me.

Sample variation in cameras DOES exist. Is that so hard to believe?

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53439799

5 - People who had SS but never worried about it. Then upgraded to FW 1.3, saw with their own eyes the benefits of the 0s antishock, and said thank you to Olympus for this nice option.

Those people don't care about what causes the blur, but are happy it's gone in their camera, and know that samples variations is a fact

I'm in.

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
Frederic
http://azurphoto.com/

Sounds good to me!

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Jeff Tokayer
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,910
Re: What is your point?
In reply to Ontario Gone, 4 months ago

Ontario Gone wrote:

Pixnat2 wrote:

What is the point of denying the existence of possible small blur due to shutter vibrations at certain shutterspeeds?

I'm curious to know your motivations?

I can answer that, if not for all, then for many of them. Because they haven't had any other choice. I have tested my GX7 and it is a bit sharper with E shutter on. Do i care that my shots are a smidge softer when choose to use M shutter? Hell no, because i have an alternative that will fix it and i rarely have to use M shutter. Olympus users don't have that option, and it sucks to have to admit you are stuck with a flaw. Some are more open minded and those are the ones praising the new FW addition. It's no different than the guy who claims his 6 year old camera has noise performance that's just as good as the new gear. People tend to discredit the flaws that threaten the value of their investment.

And another question : why do you think Olmypus did include the 0s antischock option in E-M1s FW 1.3?

Another easy answer. BC shutter shock is real.

-- hide signature --

"Run to the light, Carol Anne. Run as fast as you can!"

Olympus has already a very effective feature on the E-P5 and E -M1, called short shutter lag. Shutter shock may be real, but definitely suppressed when this feature is activated. I have ran a test with my E-P5 in the range of 1/80 to 1/400 in 1/3 increments, and all the images are pin sharp.

When I test my E-M1 with anti shock set to 0, the sound and vibration levels are no different from when the short shutter lag is enabled. Makes me wonder.

-- hide signature --

My nickel, since the penny is now discontinued...
Jeff.

pede59
Contributing MemberPosts: 808
Re: Just the facts, man, just the facts.....
In reply to photohounds, 4 months ago

photohounds wrote:

pede59 wrote:

photohounds wrote:

No doubt there's some visible shutter bounce.
But actual shake, "caused" by it?
.
The pictures (the first AND second batch) I posted simply do not it.
I have not put on the 1.3 firmware yet. I just hold a camera correctly

Pics:
http://photohounds.smugmug.com/
Oly and other .. Gear test samples:
http://photohounds.smugmug.com/Gear-tests

Wasn't sure about shutter shock but did some simple tests after installing the 1.3 firmware. You can clearly see a difference between the new 0s AS setting and normal release. I'd recommend you do that before concluding that all those people just can't hold the camera right.

And yet with an EM-1 handheld, there's no trace of the great evil - shutter shock.
"all those people"? umm, right.
Neither of us KNOW about their ability, biases, methods, or credibility. Mine has a simple source - "HERE are my pics - show me where SS is".
.
I believe that I handhold a camera reasonably well, and squeeze the shutter like I learned with my first rangefinder.
NONE who claim to have this "problem" can point to an issue in a single photo here
HOW is it possible for this evil to live among us and for MOST users, including me, to NEVER see it.
.
Maybe if I suspend the thing off a bit of fishing line or stab the shutter while holding it with 2 fingers, I might see it?

I AM saying I have NO idea how a tiny minority of users can create or exacerbate a camera moving slightly (as most do) to the extent they get blurred images.

-- hide signature --

Well designed gear performs better for longer than well marketed gear.
Pics:
http://photohounds.smugmug.com/
Oly and other .. Gear test samples:
http://photohounds.smugmug.com/Gear-tests

Shutter shock is not a huge effect. But with the new firmware you can take pictures of the same subject with and without the new setting and then compare.

I really don't care if you believe that SS exists. I guess Olympus came out with the new firmware to provide placebos to calm down the shock hysteria

Anders W
Forum ProPosts: 17,376Gear list
Re: What is your point?
In reply to Jeff Tokayer, 4 months ago

Jeff Tokayer wrote:

Ontario Gone wrote:

Pixnat2 wrote:

What is the point of denying the existence of possible small blur due to shutter vibrations at certain shutterspeeds?

I'm curious to know your motivations?

I can answer that, if not for all, then for many of them. Because they haven't had any other choice. I have tested my GX7 and it is a bit sharper with E shutter on. Do i care that my shots are a smidge softer when choose to use M shutter? Hell no, because i have an alternative that will fix it and i rarely have to use M shutter. Olympus users don't have that option, and it sucks to have to admit you are stuck with a flaw. Some are more open minded and those are the ones praising the new FW addition. It's no different than the guy who claims his 6 year old camera has noise performance that's just as good as the new gear. People tend to discredit the flaws that threaten the value of their investment.

And another question : why do you think Olmypus did include the 0s antischock option in E-M1s FW 1.3?

Another easy answer. BC shutter shock is real.

-- hide signature --

"Run to the light, Carol Anne. Run as fast as you can!"

Olympus has already a very effective feature on the E-P5 and E -M1, called short shutter lag. Shutter shock may be real, but definitely suppressed when this feature is activated. I have ran a test with my E-P5 in the range of 1/80 to 1/400 in 1/3 increments, and all the images are pin sharp.

The 1/8 s (or longer) anti-shock feature available on all Oly bodies is but a partial and circumstantial help. It eliminates the shock due to the first phase of shutter action (shutter closing to prepare the sensor for exposure) but not the shocks due to subsequent phases.

When I test my E-M1 with anti shock set to 0, the sound and vibration levels are no different from when the short shutter lag is enabled. Makes me wonder.

This is because the mechanical shutter moves through all phases as it usually would even with "zero-second" anti-shock enabled, presumably because there is no way to program the shutter so as to skip a phase.

The difference is that with "zero-second" (actually 1/40 s) anti-shock, the exposure is not initiated when the first mechanical curtain opens, as would usually be the case. Instead, after a delay of approximately 1/40 s (25 ms), the sensor is reset and exposure is initiated electronically. This eliminates the shock due to the first two phases of mechanical shutter action (shutter closing to prepare the sensor for exposure and shutter opening for exposure) as well as the shocks due to the mechanical shutter being "cocked" (prepared for action). See the post to which I link below and subsequent posts in the subthread it initiates for details:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53421360

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Panasonic Lumix DMC-G1 Olympus OM-D E-M5 Olympus E-M1 Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-45mm F3.5-5.6 ASPH OIS Panasonic Lumix G Vario 7-14mm F4 ASPH +21 more
Anders W
Forum ProPosts: 17,376Gear list
Re: Just the facts, man, just the facts.....
In reply to XMN, 4 months ago

XMN wrote:

amalric wrote:

Guy Parsons wrote:

I have a video of the E-PL5 shutter at 1,000 fps and there's a huge amount of bounce as the initial shutter closure happens, also I have made audio recording of the noise the mechanism makes and there's plenty of vibration going on that carries over into the exposure period. I showed those in a recent shock thread, but no time right now to find the links again. You just have to believe.

In my case though I have not noticed any shock results but then I do not go looking for them. I now mostly use the 12-40mm on my E-PL5 and I am sure that helps dampen any shock problems due to the extra mass.

In fact the E-PL5, which I had briefly, had indeed a vibration problem which affected it between 1/100 and 1/200, but it was v. visible, and it was documented almost immediately. I don't notice it with the PM1 which should have the same shutter generation, so perhaps O. cured it.

The E-M5 never had it, in fact it has the gentlest shutter by comparison. Vibrations are always possible, and have been for half a century since the actuations became much harder than the sweet Compurs.

Of course it's the generalizing that is stupid, not mentioning the exceptions. If vibrations ruined the shot at all times, a camera maker might as well kill himself

Instead it v. easy to ruin a shot with a light mirrorless camera, despite the IBIS, for not holding it well, or having the shakes, but what deepens the stupidity, is that I have never seen anybody accepting user error. That's human nature, but stupidity nevertheless. So to me the whole debate is flawed.

Am.

See my new blog in the sign: it's fun!

To me, there are 2 main groups in this SS debate, and they are not just the simple 'SS believers' and 'SS deniers'.

1º group: 'I have SS, i am not doing anything wrong, you surely have it too, you just don't know how to search for it'

2º group: 'I don't have it, i know how to search for it, you surelly don't have too, you just don't know how to old a camera'

This is almost polarized in this two almost fanatic groups when for me, there are at least 4 groups:

1 - People that really have SS

2 - Peolple that really don't have SS

3 - People that think they have SS but just don't know how to old a camera

4 - People that think they don't have SS but just don't know how to search for it (or don't care for it)

I conced that at least this 4 groups exist. Extremists positions such as: "if i see it/don't see it, you must/must not also" don't cut it for me.

Sample variation in cameras DOES exist. Is that so hard to believe?

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53439799

Does sample variation exist?

Most likely, yes.

Does this help explain why people come to different conclusions?

Most likely, yes.

Is there such a thing as an MFT camera perfectly free from shutter shock when used in conjunction with the purely mechanical shutter present on all such cameras hitherto produced except the GM1?

Most likely, no. If you answer yes to this question, you are claiming that Newton's third law of motion is invalid. I am not willing to make that claim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion

 Anders W's gear list:Anders W's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-G1 Olympus OM-D E-M5 Olympus E-M1 Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-45mm F3.5-5.6 ASPH OIS Panasonic Lumix G Vario 7-14mm F4 ASPH +21 more
Tony Rogers
Contributing MemberPosts: 556Gear list
Re: What is your point?
In reply to Jeff Tokayer, 4 months ago

Jeff Tokayer wrote:

Ontario Gone wrote:

Pixnat2 wrote:

What is the point of denying the existence of possible small blur due to shutter vibrations at certain shutterspeeds?

I'm curious to know your motivations?

I can answer that, if not for all, then for many of them. Because they haven't had any other choice. I have tested my GX7 and it is a bit sharper with E shutter on. Do i care that my shots are a smidge softer when choose to use M shutter? Hell no, because i have an alternative that will fix it and i rarely have to use M shutter. Olympus users don't have that option, and it sucks to have to admit you are stuck with a flaw. Some are more open minded and those are the ones praising the new FW addition. It's no different than the guy who claims his 6 year old camera has noise performance that's just as good as the new gear. People tend to discredit the flaws that threaten the value of their investment.

And another question : why do you think Olmypus did include the 0s antischock option in E-M1s FW 1.3?

Another easy answer. BC shutter shock is real.

-- hide signature --

"Run to the light, Carol Anne. Run as fast as you can!"

Olympus has already a very effective feature on the E-P5 and E -M1, called short shutter lag. Shutter shock may be real, but definitely suppressed when this feature is activated. I have ran a test with my E-P5 in the range of 1/80 to 1/400 in 1/3 increments, and all the images are pin sharp.

When I test my E-M1 with anti shock set to 0, the sound and vibration levels are no different from when the short shutter lag is enabled. Makes me wonder.

-- hide signature --

My nickel, since the penny is now discontinued...
Jeff.

What you need to do to test this is first find a reproducible set of circumstances that do show shutter shock with Release Lag-Time set to Normal. Then set Release Lag-Time to Short and repeat the test. If the first set of images show more blur than the second, you will have shown something. If that is actually what you did with the E-P5, great!

I did this test when I first heard that Release Lag-Time set to Short improved shutter shock but I found no improvement in the circumstances that I tested(E-M1 + 45-175 @ 175mm, 6m focus distance, shutter 1/160).

Just taking a series of shots and saying that they are sharp doesn't show anything.

 Tony Rogers's gear list:Tony Rogers's gear list
Olympus E-M1
XMN
XMN
Junior MemberPosts: 39Gear list
Re: Just the facts, man, just the facts.....
In reply to Anders W, 4 months ago

Anders W wrote:

XMN wrote:

amalric wrote:

Guy Parsons wrote:

I have a video of the E-PL5 shutter at 1,000 fps and there's a huge amount of bounce as the initial shutter closure happens, also I have made audio recording of the noise the mechanism makes and there's plenty of vibration going on that carries over into the exposure period. I showed those in a recent shock thread, but no time right now to find the links again. You just have to believe.

In my case though I have not noticed any shock results but then I do not go looking for them. I now mostly use the 12-40mm on my E-PL5 and I am sure that helps dampen any shock problems due to the extra mass.

In fact the E-PL5, which I had briefly, had indeed a vibration problem which affected it between 1/100 and 1/200, but it was v. visible, and it was documented almost immediately. I don't notice it with the PM1 which should have the same shutter generation, so perhaps O. cured it.

The E-M5 never had it, in fact it has the gentlest shutter by comparison. Vibrations are always possible, and have been for half a century since the actuations became much harder than the sweet Compurs.

Of course it's the generalizing that is stupid, not mentioning the exceptions. If vibrations ruined the shot at all times, a camera maker might as well kill himself

Instead it v. easy to ruin a shot with a light mirrorless camera, despite the IBIS, for not holding it well, or having the shakes, but what deepens the stupidity, is that I have never seen anybody accepting user error. That's human nature, but stupidity nevertheless. So to me the whole debate is flawed.

Am.

See my new blog in the sign: it's fun!

To me, there are 2 main groups in this SS debate, and they are not just the simple 'SS believers' and 'SS deniers'.

1º group: 'I have SS, i am not doing anything wrong, you surely have it too, you just don't know how to search for it'

2º group: 'I don't have it, i know how to search for it, you surelly don't have too, you just don't know how to old a camera'

This is almost polarized in this two almost fanatic groups when for me, there are at least 4 groups:

1 - People that really have SS

2 - Peolple that really don't have SS

3 - People that think they have SS but just don't know how to old a camera

4 - People that think they don't have SS but just don't know how to search for it (or don't care for it)

I conced that at least this 4 groups exist. Extremists positions such as: "if i see it/don't see it, you must/must not also" don't cut it for me.

Sample variation in cameras DOES exist. Is that so hard to believe?

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53439799

Does sample variation exist?

Most likely, yes.

Does this help explain why people come to different conclusions?

Most likely, yes.

Is there such a thing as an MFT camera perfectly free from shutter shock when used in conjunction with the purely mechanical shutter present on all such cameras hitherto produced except the GM1?

Most likely, no. If you answer yes to this question, you are claiming that Newton's third law of motion is invalid. I am not willing to make that claim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion

Of course there is no perfectly SS free camera, in absolute terms even the earth rotation would make it impossible. I'm speeking in practical terms, i concede that some cameras (no ideia if the majority or minority) have so little SS that in practical terms it's irrelevant, although you can barelly see it in 100% crops, it's so insignificant that don't matters.

Of course this is highly subjective, what's pin sharp to some might be unbearable soft to others. But for your reference, i'm not ok with this level of SS for instance:  http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53439799

And generally, most of the demonstration of SS i see here are within these parameters (believing they are well done).

If i have a (for me) pin sharp image at 1/320 with 40mm i expect also at 1/250 or 1/200.

I just retested mine and even at 12mm!! and 25mm with 1/200 gives me SS, not anymore with AS-0s

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Ranlee
Contributing MemberPosts: 672Gear list
Re: Sutter Shock? Pictures from the holy land.
In reply to Tony Rogers, 4 months ago

Your post is well done!

My own experience (being new to MFT) is limited to the GX7.  I wasn't happy with the slightly soft images I was getting with the 100-300 and since I expected better I then tried the eshutter and found a noticeable improvement.   I then conducted my own tests, handheld, shutter speed at about 1/500th, same image with mechanical shutter and with eshutter, and at every focal length the eshutter image resolved more fine detail than the mechanical.

I then tested the 35-100, and the 20-1.7 and finally the 12-32 and DID NOT see the same problem with any of those lens - well, perhaps just a tad at the long end of the 35-100 but not always so I discount that finding.  SS was always evident in my testing of the 100-300.

I didn't change the way I held the camera during the test (at least not consciously), and frankly I doubt I have the fine motor control required to induce the subtle detail smudging involved even if I were inclined to forcibly skew the results in favor of one over the other - and what would be the point?  I simply want the best images I can get out of the equipment in hand.

At one time I thought about posting my examples but after reading any number of antagonistic threads about SS it soon became apparent to me that it wouldn't matter.  I could as easily post crystal clear images using the 20-1.7 and proudly declare SS wasn't visible in those and so conclude that SS was a myth.  In the end I satisfied myself with my own testing and will use those results to improve my images to a point where I find them acceptable.  I only post now with the thought that someone else may benefit who shoots with the same equipment.  Beyond that, I couldn't care less who believes.

-- hide signature --

Randy

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Jeff Tokayer
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,910
Re: What is your point?
In reply to Tony Rogers, 4 months ago

Tony Rogers wrote:

Jeff Tokayer wrote:

Ontario Gone wrote:

Pixnat2 wrote:

What is the point of denying the existence of possible small blur due to shutter vibrations at certain shutterspeeds?

I'm curious to know your motivations?

I can answer that, if not for all, then for many of them. Because they haven't had any other choice. I have tested my GX7 and it is a bit sharper with E shutter on. Do i care that my shots are a smidge softer when choose to use M shutter? Hell no, because i have an alternative that will fix it and i rarely have to use M shutter. Olympus users don't have that option, and it sucks to have to admit you are stuck with a flaw. Some are more open minded and those are the ones praising the new FW addition. It's no different than the guy who claims his 6 year old camera has noise performance that's just as good as the new gear. People tend to discredit the flaws that threaten the value of their investment.

And another question : why do you think Olmypus did include the 0s antischock option in E-M1s FW 1.3?

Another easy answer. BC shutter shock is real.

-- hide signature --

"Run to the light, Carol Anne. Run as fast as you can!"

Olympus has already a very effective feature on the E-P5 and E -M1, called short shutter lag. Shutter shock may be real, but definitely suppressed when this feature is activated. I have ran a test with my E-P5 in the range of 1/80 to 1/400 in 1/3 increments, and all the images are pin sharp.

When I test my E-M1 with anti shock set to 0, the sound and vibration levels are no different from when the short shutter lag is enabled. Makes me wonder.

-- hide signature --

My nickel, since the penny is now discontinued...
Jeff.

What you need to do to test this is first find a reproducible set of circumstances that do show shutter shock with Release Lag-Time set to Normal. Then set Release Lag-Time to Short and repeat the test. If the first set of images show more blur than the second, you will have shown something. If that is actually what you did with the E-P5, great!

I never experienced SS, so the test was to confirm that my camera was giving me good results. I only shot with SSL enabled ( which is my default setting)

My humble test

I did this test when I first heard that Release Lag-Time set to Short improved shutter shock but I found no improvement in the circumstances that I tested(E-M1 + 45-175 @ 175mm, 6m focus distance, shutter 1/160).

Just taking a series of shots and saying that they are sharp doesn't show anything.

I tested it with the 45/1.8, which was being touted as the culprit. Either my camera or my technique makes a difference, i don't know. But it works for me.

-- hide signature --

My nickel, since the penny is now discontinued...
Jeff.

Blaufeld
Forum MemberPosts: 70Gear list
I really don't understand...
In reply to XMN, 4 months ago

As I posted elsewere, I never had troubles with my pre-firmware update E-M1.

SO...

After the update I've put the camera on tripod. I shot 18 frames, from 1/60 sec downward to 1/320, alternating the same speed with "Anti Shock 0 sec." and "Anti Shock Off".

Looking at the files at 100%, every one with AS Off had a small but noticeable blur.

My conclusion:

1- SS existed.

2- Firmware update eliminated it

3- My shots are good now as they were before.

-- hide signature --

"A biker is a man that thinks of the road not as a way to reach a place, but as a time with wich to reach himself."

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XMN
XMN
Junior MemberPosts: 39Gear list
Re: What is your point?
In reply to Jeff Tokayer, 4 months ago

Jeff Tokayer wrote:

Ontario Gone wrote:

Pixnat2 wrote:

What is the point of denying the existence of possible small blur due to shutter vibrations at certain shutterspeeds?

I'm curious to know your motivations?

I can answer that, if not for all, then for many of them. Because they haven't had any other choice. I have tested my GX7 and it is a bit sharper with E shutter on. Do i care that my shots are a smidge softer when choose to use M shutter? Hell no, because i have an alternative that will fix it and i rarely have to use M shutter. Olympus users don't have that option, and it sucks to have to admit you are stuck with a flaw. Some are more open minded and those are the ones praising the new FW addition. It's no different than the guy who claims his 6 year old camera has noise performance that's just as good as the new gear. People tend to discredit the flaws that threaten the value of their investment.

And another question : why do you think Olmypus did include the 0s antischock option in E-M1s FW 1.3?

Another easy answer. BC shutter shock is real.

-- hide signature --

"Run to the light, Carol Anne. Run as fast as you can!"

Olympus has already a very effective feature on the E-P5 and E -M1, called short shutter lag. Shutter shock may be real, but definitely suppressed when this feature is activated. I have ran a test with my E-P5 in the range of 1/80 to 1/400 in 1/3 increments, and all the images are pin sharp.

When I test my E-M1 with anti shock set to 0, the sound and vibration levels are no different from when the short shutter lag is enabled. Makes me wonder.

-- hide signature --

My nickel, since the penny is now discontinued...
Jeff.

Well, i have an EM1, and had great hopes with the 'short shutter lag' and the 1/8s delay to solve the SS, but in my case it only improved the images a tiny bit, and in a very randomly way. (again, in MY case)

The best improvement was really the HLD7 grip, turned my images acceptable in the SS range although not completly SS free, and i was prepared to forget about it. Someone in here told me that that was the proof that the problem was my hand holding technique, but guess what, now, without the HLD7 and with the AS-0s i get this:http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53439799 did i suddenly learned how to hold a camera?

To me, whatever it is that this 1.3 firmware did, it works, that's all that matters to me.

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amalric
Forum ProPosts: 10,725
Re: I really don't understand...
In reply to Blaufeld, 4 months ago

Blaufeld wrote:

As I posted elsewere, I never had troubles with my pre-firmware update E-M1.

SO...

After the update I've put the camera on tripod. I shot 18 frames, from 1/60 sec downward to 1/320, alternating the same speed with "Anti Shock 0 sec." and "Anti Shock Off".

Looking at the files at 100%, every one with AS Off had a small but noticeable blur.

My conclusion:

1- SS existed.

2- Firmware update eliminated it

3- My shots are good now as they were before.

-- hide signature --

"A biker is a man that thinks of the road not as a way to reach a place, but as a time with wich to reach himself."

OK, so that tells that there is unwanted vibration in the E-M1. Not in the E-M5. Different deneration of shutters.

Same happened between the PL5 and the PM1

One might even assume that a type of shutter produces a vibration which resonates with the sensor's  vibrating IBIS, at certain frequencies.

I wonder why no shuttershocker ever wrote to O.'s  Setsuno factory, asking the reason for it i.e. sabotage by a slave labour made of a remote isalnd's dwarfs

Am.

XMN
XMN
Junior MemberPosts: 39Gear list
Re: I really don't understand...
In reply to Blaufeld, 4 months ago

Blaufeld wrote:

As I posted elsewere, I never had troubles with my pre-firmware update E-M1.

SO...

After the update I've put the camera on tripod. I shot 18 frames, from 1/60 sec downward to 1/320, alternating the same speed with "Anti Shock 0 sec." and "Anti Shock Off".

Looking at the files at 100%, every one with AS Off had a small but noticeable blur.

My conclusion:

1- SS existed.

2- Firmware update eliminated it

3- My shots are good now as they were before.

-- hide signature --

"A biker is a man that thinks of the road not as a way to reach a place, but as a time with wich to reach himself."

Ok, so just confirms what i said;

What one finds tolerable is highly subjective,

Your camera, according to you was already very good in SS department =>(sample variation), and the quality of your photos, to you, are not dependent of the difference that 0s anti-shock enabled.

Have nothing to objcect on that. What is it that you don't understand?

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