Sutter Shock? Pictures from the holy land. Locked

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photohounds
Regular MemberPosts: 435Gear list
Sutter Shock? Pictures from the holy land.
3 months ago

Recently I waited on a car park roof for a course to start.
.
Having a few minutes, and EM-1, the Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 attached and some dim light, and an unusual (for me) view, I started shooting.
.
After a few moments I thought "the Shutter shock voodoo" so .. I switched to Shutter priority and set it to that "unholy" 1/200th of a second to see if I could detect any. I snapped away nonchalantly .. hand held, with a bag on my back bracketing away.

I have posted 30+ new pictures most at 1/200th. Also, most are straight out of camera, thought I did have some fun with a few.
.
They can be zoomed full size to search for shutter shock and exif data is there to check the speed used foir the image is in the unholy range. 
.
I would like to hear if anyone sees an image that displays the shutter choice poltergeist as I cannot see it.
.
Not a bad way to waste 1/2 an hour or so ..

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ShutterShock poltergeist search ..
http://photohounds.smugmug.com/Gear-tests/More-Shutter-Shock-debumking/

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Jeff Tokayer
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,904
Re: Sutter Shock? Pictures from the holy land.
In reply to photohounds, 3 months ago

The SS police is out to get you.

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My nickel, since the penny is now discontinued...
Jeff.

Tony8232
Contributing MemberPosts: 512Gear list
Re: Sutter Shock? Pictures from the holy land.
In reply to photohounds, 3 months ago

photohounds wrote:

Recently I waited on a car park roof for a course to start.
.
Having a few minutes, and EM-1, the Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 attached and some dim light, and an unusual (for me) view, I started shooting.
.
After a few moments I thought "the Shutter shock voodoo" so .. I switched to Shutter priority and set it to that "unholy" 1/200th of a second to see if I could detect any. I snapped away nonchalantly .. hand held, with a bag on my back bracketing away.

I have posted 30+ new pictures most at 1/200th. Also, most are straight out of camera, thought I did have some fun with a few.
.
They can be zoomed full size to search for shutter shock and exif data is there to check the speed used foir the image is in the unholy range.
.
I would like to hear if anyone sees an image that displays the shutter choice poltergeist as I cannot see it.
.
Not a bad way to waste 1/2 an hour or so ..

-- hide signature --

Well designed gear performs better for longer than well marketed gear.
Pics:
http://photohounds.smugmug.com/
Oly and other .. Gear test samples:
http://photohounds.smugmug.com/Gear-tests
ShutterShock poltergeist search ..
http://photohounds.smugmug.com/Gear-tests/More-Shutter-Shock-debumking/

Nice photos by the way. I like the use of black and white in some of the photos.  I agree, I don't see any problems with your pictures. But wait someone will be by soon explaining what you did wrong to get so many nice shots.  LOL

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Kameraphil
Regular MemberPosts: 432
Re: Sutter Shock? Pictures from the holy land.
In reply to Tony8232, 3 months ago

Searching alone one rarely finds. One first needs the foundation of  belief: believing is seeing. 

xMichaelx
Regular MemberPosts: 112
Re: Sutter Shock? Pictures from the holy land.
In reply to photohounds, 3 months ago

No Exif, and a horrifying watermark. There might have been nothing BUT shuttershock, and I still wouldn't have noticed for the other distractions.

Guy Parsons
Forum ProPosts: 18,274Gear list
Re: Shutter Shock?
In reply to photohounds, 3 months ago

Your quote on your page "Shutter shock - it is starting to sound like a religion to me ..."

Well, at least the shutter shock religion does have some facts to back up its existence.

Regards........ Guy

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photohounds
Regular MemberPosts: 435Gear list
Say three "hail sutters" tonight and repent ;)
In reply to Guy Parsons, 3 months ago

Well, what facts BE those?
.
When I see such a post, I see "user error",  or could it be trolling?
I wouldn't blame a camera if I simply hadn't learned how to hold one.
.
 Where's the uproar about mirror shock - DSLR mirrors with their sub mirrors, extra hinges  and all that claptrap cause FAR more shake.
.
For that reason, all good dslrs have mirror lock-up.
35mm proper cameras also had mirror locks and so did my RB-67
- now the mirror in THAT swung like a barn door

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photohounds
Regular MemberPosts: 435Gear list
Re: Sutter Shock? Pictures from the holy land.
In reply to xMichaelx, 3 months ago

xMichaelx wrote:

No Exif, and a horrifying watermark. There might have been nothing BUT shuttershock, and I still wouldn't have noticed for the other distractions.

Hmm, so you actually weren't able to find the 'size' button on the lower right to max the image?
.
And ... you really couldn't press the "i" button for the exif data?
.

C'mon, please try again I'm trying to FIND the issue and so far, have never seen it. Not even once.
.
I have tripped over and taken a blurry shot or two occasionally of course, but unlike a bad workman, I do not "find fault" with the camera when it is I who have erred.

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photohounds
Regular MemberPosts: 435Gear list
Thank you for your kind comments.
In reply to Tony8232, 3 months ago

I intend to go back with a tripod and shoot some panoramic style shots.
The tripod and a pano head make it simple to stitch together perfectly:) 
.
The 45/1.8 is great for that.  Not too long, at F4 or f5.6 it is tack sharp, less than 1/8th stop vignetting and very low CA.  Ideal for panos.

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photohounds
Regular MemberPosts: 435Gear list
Re: Sutter Shock? Pictures from the holy land.
In reply to Jeff Tokayer, 3 months ago

Heh, heh .. 
.
I heard SO MUCH flurry ang bit-foaming HYPE about this (also for the EM-5 which I might also test) , I just had to see it for myself.

.

Had I bought a dud camera?

.
Quite frankly I believe in the fairy at the bottom of the garden more

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Guy Parsons
Forum ProPosts: 18,274Gear list
Just the facts, man, just the facts.....
In reply to photohounds, 3 months ago

photohounds wrote:

Well, what facts BE those?

Since you asked.....

When I see such a post, I see "user error", or could it be trolling?
I wouldn't blame a camera if I simply hadn't learned how to hold one.

A lot of bad user handling results in blur and shake, also stabilisation can add its own blur, and then there's the shock of the initial shutter closure shock when live view ends and exposure begins. Those other cause blurs are often blamed on shutter shock, as "I did nothing wrong".

The recent addition of a firmware change to the E-M1 now allows easy before/after tests with the new anti-shock "0 delay" and it's clear from the many samples seen that the removal of that initial shutter closure action causes images to be sharper.

The comparison people see with GX7 etc. comparing mechanical and electronic shutters show the  same improvement in image sharpness, vibration of the shutter mechanism is a killer in a light camera.

Where's the uproar about mirror shock - DSLR mirrors with their sub mirrors, extra hinges and all that claptrap cause FAR more shake.

Yep, it's all there, but those things are way heavier so dampened the shutter shock way more. Only happens for live view anyway, so limited chances of seeing it.

For that reason, all good dslrs have mirror lock-up.

Yep, to help stop shock due to mirror slap. But in those cameras when the mirror is used the shutter is already closed so only has to run for the exposure and not do the initial closure that causes the shock we sometimes see.

35mm proper cameras also had mirror locks and so did my RB-67
- now the mirror in THAT swung like a barn door

My KowaSix used to frighten people at a distance with its huge noisy non-return mirror. No shake though as it weighed a ton.

I have a video of the E-PL5 shutter at 1,000 fps and there's a huge amount of bounce as the initial shutter closure happens, also I have made audio recording of the noise the mechanism makes and there's plenty of vibration going on that carries over into the exposure period. I showed those in a recent shock thread, but no time right now to find the links again. You just have to believe.

In my case though I have not noticed any shock results but then I do not go looking for them. I now mostly use the 12-40mm on my E-PL5 and I am sure that helps dampen any shock problems due to the extra mass.

Now, about religion, where are the facts......?

Regards..... Guy

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photohounds
Regular MemberPosts: 435Gear list
Re: Sutter Shock? Pictures from the holy land.
In reply to Kameraphil, 3 months ago

My motivation is seeing unsubstantiated comments made, falsely blaming the gear.  Judging by the results, instead of dubious motivations,  the equipment works perfectly.

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Anders W
Forum ProPosts: 17,051Gear list
Re: Sutter Shock? Pictures from the holy land.
In reply to photohounds, 3 months ago

photohounds wrote:

Recently I waited on a car park roof for a course to start.
.
Having a few minutes, and EM-1, the Zuiko 12-40mm f/2.8 attached and some dim light, and an unusual (for me) view, I started shooting.
.
After a few moments I thought "the Shutter shock voodoo" so .. I switched to Shutter priority and set it to that "unholy" 1/200th of a second to see if I could detect any. I snapped away nonchalantly .. hand held, with a bag on my back bracketing away.

I have posted 30+ new pictures most at 1/200th. Also, most are straight out of camera, thought I did have some fun with a few.
.
They can be zoomed full size to search for shutter shock and exif data is there to check the speed used foir the image is in the unholy range.
.
I would like to hear if anyone sees an image that displays the shutter choice poltergeist as I cannot see it.

I am afraid that seeing it is a privilege accorded only to those willing to consider the evidence provided by appropriate testing. Since you have conclusively demonstrated that you do not belong to that group, you might as well give up.

.
Not a bad way to waste 1/2 an hour or so ..

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Well designed gear performs better for longer than well marketed gear.
Pics:
http://photohounds.smugmug.com/
Oly and other .. Gear test samples:
http://photohounds.smugmug.com/Gear-tests
ShutterShock poltergeist search ..
http://photohounds.smugmug.com/Gear-tests/More-Shutter-Shock-debumking/

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photohounds
Regular MemberPosts: 435Gear list
Re: Just the facts, man, just the facts.....
In reply to Guy Parsons, 3 months ago

No doubt there's some visible shutter bounce.
But actual shake, "caused" by it?
.
The pictures (the first AND second batch) I posted simply do not it.
I have not put on the 1.3 firmware yet. I just hold a camera correctly
.
With all-electronic shutters the USER will provide the shake - and probably STILL blame the camera ...
.
Monty Python and HHGTTG talked at length about the existence of a certain deity, I'll leave it at that :o
.
We had a s/h Kowa Six in the shop once.  
I played with it, but never ran a roll through ..

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Anders W
Forum ProPosts: 17,051Gear list
Re: Just the facts, man, just the facts.....
In reply to photohounds, 3 months ago

photohounds wrote:

No doubt there's some visible shutter bounce.
But actual shake, "caused" by it?
.
The pictures (the first AND second batch) I posted simply do not it.
I have not put on the 1.3 firmware yet. I just hold a camera correctly
.
With all-electronic shutters the USER will provide the shake - and probably STILL blame the camera ...

Can the user be blamed for holding the camera wrongly even when he/she doesn't hold the camera?

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53412887

http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artnov12/dw-SonyNEX5N.html

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DonSC
Contributing MemberPosts: 857
You tell me
In reply to Guy Parsons, 3 months ago

Here are some shots. Some have Anti-Shock set to (0). Some have Anti-Shock set to OFF. Which ones are which? Of course the only valid test would have someone set Anti-Shock to (0) or OFF, someone else take the photo, and then for you to decide which are which. But this should be good enough because honestly I don't care what the shots show (or don't):

I haven't even looked at these myself but if you can correctly identify which are which I'll be very impressed.

Shutter Shock seems to be a catch-all phrase used anytime someone gets a blurry photo. There are very few credible tests which show it and even those tests aren't reproducible. (Hand held photos by someone who is a believer is NOT credible BTW -- anyone can blur a photo). My guess is that blurring related to the equipment, when that occurs, is not related to the shutter in the simple way that has been suggested. Other things are probably involved. All in all it's mostly a distraction which is best ignored, and hopefully the new Anti-Shock (0) setting will let this happen.

Anders W
Forum ProPosts: 17,051Gear list
Re: You tell me
In reply to DonSC, 3 months ago

DonSC wrote:

Here are some shots. Some have Anti-Shock set to (0). Some have Anti-Shock set to OFF. Which ones are which? Of course the only valid test would have someone set Anti-Shock to (0) or OFF, someone else take the photo, and then for you to decide which are which. But this should be good enough because honestly I don't care what the shots show (or don't):

I haven't even looked at these myself but if you can correctly identify which are which I'll be very impressed.

Shutter Shock seems to be a catch-all phrase used anytime someone gets a blurry photo. There are very few credible tests which show it and even those tests aren't reproducible. (Hand held photos by someone who is a believer is NOT credible BTW -- anyone can blur a photo).

That's one of many good reasons not to bother with yours.

Here are a couple of tests worth being called by that name:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53412887

http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artnov12/dw-SonyNEX5N.html

My guess is that blurring related to the equipment, when that occurs, is not related to the shutter in the simple way that has been suggested. Other things are probably involved. All in all it's mostly a distraction which is best ignored, and hopefully the new Anti-Shock (0) setting will let this happen.

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Yohan Pamudji
Senior MemberPosts: 2,859
What bothers me: the arrogance
In reply to photohounds, 3 months ago

It really doesn't matter to me what people believe about the existence of shutter shock. What really bothers me is how arrogant the deniers are by and large.  Just because you haven't seen it, of course nobody else ever has and is imagining things.  Or if they have seen it, surely it must be down to bad technique--user error blamed on the camera.

How about being more charitable?  Could it be that you were lucky to get a camera that doesn't exhibit the problem but others haven't been so lucky?  Could it be that some of us are very experienced photographers who know how to handle a camera and have done everything in our power to eliminate the problem prior to the latest firmware update but have been unable to?

I bought an E-M1 and until the problem showed up in real pictures I didn't know there was such a thing as shutter shock.  I didn't go looking for it--it found me.  After I saw unexpected blurriness in pictures I did controlled tests with various settings and even various handholding techniques (normal grip, very firm, very loose; EVF to eye, compose with rear LCD; etc.) and nothing I did was able to fix the problem.  The problem was consistent and repeatable.  I returned that camera, got a 2nd one, but it had the same issues.

Believe me: I badly wanted a working E-M1 and did everything I could on my side to eliminate shutter shock but nothing worked.  Why are you deniers throwing me and everybody like me under the bus by claiming it's user error?  I know--you don't know me and you can't verify my claims.  But why should the default attitude be one of extreme skepticism and uncharitable behavior?  "Look at my camera that doesn't have shutter shock!  You idiots who do must be doing it wrong!"  Unsavory.

That's the last I'm saying on the matter here.  And it's a reminder of why I tend to avoid this forum these days.  We all talk in circles and nobody is willing to concede an inch.  Such a shame.  This forum could be so much better if we all were willing to be a bit more empathetic and try to see issues from the other side.

exdeejjjaaaa
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,683Gear list
Re: What bothers me: the arrogance
In reply to Yohan Pamudji, 3 months ago

some idiot removed my posting, so I will repeat again

first several shots of the OP
1/500

1/500

1/20

1/800

so much for SS testing... and being camjpegs with infamous Olympus overly stong NR and oversharpening (as Oly camjpegs are intended to be seen strongly downsized) there is no wonder that OP does not see anything.

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Timur Born
Senior MemberPosts: 3,765
Re: Just the facts, man, just the facts.....
In reply to Guy Parsons, 3 months ago

Guy Parsons wrote:

The recent addition of a firmware change to the E-M1 now allows easy before/after tests with the new anti-shock "0 delay" and it's clear from the many samples seen that the removal of that initial shutter closure action causes images to be sharper.

I would rather say that it eliminates the bigger shock of the shutter opening action that is happening right after the softer shutter closer action, while making the shutter closure action even more soft as an icing on the cake.

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