Auto ISO in Manual Mode. OLY m43 system

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
Mark Chan
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Auto ISO in Manual Mode. OLY m43 system
8 months ago

Just a note out there for those ever wanting this.

goto:

menu-->gearbox-->E-->ISO Auto Set;

select all.

You will have auto ISO when using manual setting and all other settings, the default is P,A,S.

Hope this is useful for anyone out there without a light meter but needs manual override vs A or S mode.

I tried focusing with em-1 and 45mm on the pixels of my monitor. at f1.8, I changed the shutter speed from 1/5000 all the way to 1/30.  The ISO went From ISO 6400 all the way to ISO low; the meteering didnt change;

Digital Dick
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Re: Auto ISO in Manual Mode. OLY m43 system
In reply to Mark Chan, 8 months ago

The problem with using Auto ISO in Manual mode is that there is no exposure compensation ability. So if you want to intentionally underexpose a scene by choosing a faster shutter speed, the camera will just adjust the ISO and give you the same auto exposure.

Dick

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Zensu11
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Re: Auto ISO in Manual Mode. OLY m43 system
In reply to Digital Dick, 8 months ago

Digital Dick wrote:

The problem with using Auto ISO in Manual mode is that there is no exposure compensation ability. So if you want to intentionally underexpose a scene by choosing a faster shutter speed, the camera will just adjust the ISO and give you the same auto exposure.

Dick

Could a work around be to set one of the custom function buttons to AEL then reframe the camera putting the center of the viewfinder on a lighter/darker subject while observing the metering, lock your exposure then reframe back to the view you want to capture? This would take less time than reading the previous sentence and of course you'd need to be in spot metering mode.

-- hide signature --

Bobby

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dpreviewreader
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Re: Auto ISO in Manual Mode. OLY m43 system
In reply to Digital Dick, 8 months ago

Digital Dick wrote:

The problem with using Auto ISO in Manual mode is that there is no exposure compensation ability. So if you want to intentionally underexpose a scene by choosing a faster shutter speed, the camera will just adjust the ISO and give you the same auto exposure.

Dick

This is a non-issue for those who shoot raw. Since exposure depends upon the f-stop and shutter speed only, shoot raw in manual mode, apply any exposure compensation by changing the shutter speed or f-stop and adjust the brightness during pp if the auto ISO selected is not what you want.

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David Kieltyka
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Re: Auto ISO in Manual Mode. OLY m43 system
In reply to dpreviewreader, 8 months ago

dpreviewreader wrote:

This is a non-issue for those who shoot raw. Since exposure depends upon the f-stop and shutter speed only, shoot raw in manual mode, apply any exposure compensation by changing the shutter speed or f-stop and adjust the brightness during pp if the auto ISO selected is not what you want.

Exposure also depends on your ISO setting in RAW unless you shoot everything at base ISO and then push in post. I wouldn't recommend doing this. With recent Oly cameras, though, if you cap Auto ISO at 800 or so you should be okay "underexposing" and then pushing.

Also, in manual mode with Auto ISO changing Tv or Av just causes the camera to shift the ISO in response. You're stuck with the camera's desired EV unless you turn off Auto ISO. (You can of course also use AE Lock to force a different EV.) Note that you can get around this with lenses that don't talk to the camera, like the Voigtländers, by using shutter priority with Auto ISO. Since the camera can't control the lens aperture this is effectively manual mode with exposure comp. capability.

-Dave-

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SkiHound
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Re: Auto ISO in Manual Mode. OLY m43 system
In reply to Digital Dick, 8 months ago

Yep, it would be more useful if you could also change exposure compensation. Set aperture and shutter speed, use exposure compensation as needed, and let auto iso adjust. But I don't see it as a big limitation since when I shoot in M I generally also set iso to a specific value.

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texinwien
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Re: Auto ISO in Manual Mode. OLY m43 system
In reply to David Kieltyka, 8 months ago

David Kieltyka wrote:

dpreviewreader wrote:

This is a non-issue for those who shoot raw. Since exposure depends upon the f-stop and shutter speed only, shoot raw in manual mode, apply any exposure compensation by changing the shutter speed or f-stop and adjust the brightness during pp if the auto ISO selected is not what you want.

Exposure also depends on your ISO setting in RAW unless you shoot everything at base ISO and then push in post.

Could you clarify this statement? How does exposure depend on your ISO setting when shooting raw in manual mode (as dpreviewreader wrote, and as I shoot 95% of the time)?

I wouldn't recommend doing this. With recent Oly cameras, though, if you cap Auto ISO at 800 or so you should be okay "underexposing" and then pushing.

1600 ISO is a better upper limit on the E-M5 and the other Olympus cameras that share the same sensor (E-PM2, E-PL5, E-P5), since you'll see an improvement in read noise up to ISO 1600. Everything higher is pretty much a wash.

Also, in manual mode with Auto ISO changing Tv or Av just causes the camera to shift the ISO in response. You're stuck with the camera's desired EV unless you turn off Auto ISO. (You can of course also use AE Lock to force a different EV.) Note that you can get around this with lenses that don't talk to the camera, like the Voigtländers, by using shutter priority with Auto ISO. Since the camera can't control the lens aperture this is effectively manual mode with exposure comp. capability.

-Dave-

I get around it by shooting in M mode 95% of the time with Auto ISO turned off. I shoot with full ISOs only, up to 1600 (so - 200, 400, 800 and 1600), always choosing the lowest ISO I can in order to get a combination of fast enough shutter speed and small enough aperture to suit my creative requirements.

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Guy Parsons
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Side note... flash.
In reply to SkiHound, 8 months ago

SkiHound wrote:

Yep, it would be more useful if you could also change exposure compensation. Set aperture and shutter speed, use exposure compensation as needed, and let auto iso adjust. But I don't see it as a big limitation since when I shoot in M I generally also set iso to a specific value.

As a side note, I basically only use Manual mode (with auto ISO) for flash work.

Then the auto ISO (on my E-PL5, E-PL1, E-P3) goes from 200 up to 3200 as it thinks fit despite the live view always displaying "ISO 200" before the shot.

The flash compensation works of course then so I can under/over expose as I like.

Reminder, the SCP flash compensation adds to the RC menu flash compensation, so it's easy to dial too much in if not being careful.

Regards.... Guy

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Macx
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Re: Auto ISO in Manual Mode. OLY m43 system
In reply to Digital Dick, 8 months ago

Digital Dick wrote:

The problem with using Auto ISO in Manual mode is that there is no exposure compensation ability. So if you want to intentionally underexpose a scene by choosing a faster shutter speed, the camera will just adjust the ISO and give you the same auto exposure.

Dick

True, but you're not forced to use the Auto ISO in such cases, and changing the ISO (aka jpeg brightness) in such cases is always an option. Depending on how you've set up the camera, the ISO control shouldn't be more than a button press away.

Unless you do as the OP describe, however, you won't see the option to switch to Auto ISO when in M.

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SkiHound
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Re: Side note... flash.
In reply to Guy Parsons, 8 months ago

I may need to try that. Most of the time when I use M it's either when using flash or working on a tripod. Using manual settings to manage shutter speed, dof, and ambient light and flash exposure compensation to balance. But I can see times when using auto iso with that combo could be useful.

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Mark Chan
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Re: Side note... flash.
In reply to Guy Parsons, 8 months ago

SkiHound wrote:

Yep, it would be more useful if you could also change exposure compensation. Set aperture and shutter speed, use exposure compensation as needed, and let auto iso adjust. But I don't see it as a big limitation since when I shoot in M I generally also set iso to a specific value.

As a side note, I basically only use Manual mode (with auto ISO) for flash work.

Then the auto ISO (on my E-PL5, E-PL1, E-P3) goes from 200 up to 3200 as it thinks fit despite the live view always displaying "ISO 200" before the shot.

The flash compensation works of course then so I can under/over expose as I like.

Reminder, the SCP flash compensation adds to the RC menu flash compensation, so it's easy to dial too much in if not being careful.

Regards.... Guy

Never thought of that; will try this later.

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David Kieltyka
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Re: Auto ISO in Manual Mode. OLY m43 system
In reply to texinwien, 8 months ago

texinwien wrote:

David Kieltyka wrote:

Exposure also depends on your ISO setting in RAW unless you shoot everything at base ISO and then push in post.

Could you clarify this statement? How does exposure depend on your ISO setting when shooting raw in manual mode (as dpreviewreader wrote, and as I shoot 95% of the time)?

You do have to choose an ISO (or let the camera choose it for you) even when you use RAW mode, yes? It doesn't just magically take care of itself. The ISO setting determines, to an extent, the range of apertures and shutter speeds you can use. Which in turn determines your exposure. Photo 101.

-Dave-

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GeorgianBay1939
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"Exposure also depends on your ISO setting in RAW unless ….”
In reply to David Kieltyka, 8 months ago

David Kieltyka wrote:

texinwien wrote:

David Kieltyka wrote:

Exposure also depends on your ISO setting in RAW unless you shoot everything at base ISO and then push in post.

Could you clarify this statement? How does exposure depend on your ISO setting when shooting raw in manual mode (as dpreviewreader wrote, and as I shoot 95% of the time)?

You do have to choose an ISO (or let the camera choose it for you) even when you use RAW mode, yes? It doesn't just magically take care of itself. The ISO setting determines, to an extent, the range of apertures and shutter speeds you can use. Which in turn determines your exposure. Photo 101.

-Dave-

Dave, I NOW understand your clarification above. But it wasn't always that way!!

This might help to further clarify the above (for those who don't recognize the issue) …..

A couple of years ago when I first started to shoot RAW with a new mirrorless camera the above statement caused me lots of grief and frustration. It was especially destructive when I started using the histogram to set exposure variables instead of the meter recommendations. I didn’t get it straight until I read gollywop’s excellent article Exposure vs Brightening which confirmed that Exposure depends only on three variables: Scene Luminance, Aperture Ratio and Shutter Interval. Exposure does not depend on ISO setting. Exposure Metering does.

There appears to be a hang-over from the days of film, extrapolated to JPEG shooting, where output brightness is important in selecting the EV for a shot. That seems to be the source of the misunderstanding of the meaning of ISO as a variable affecting exposure —— when in reality ISOspeed affects the output from the sensor and its electronics.

The relationship of ISO and EV is determined by the Exposure Metering Equation (middle word is mine), which calibrates the exposure meter using:

EV, Exposure Value, as a function of E, Illuminance, S, ISOspeed and C, meter calibration constant

"When applied to the left-hand side of the exposure equation, EV denotes actual combinations of camera settings; when applied to the right-hand side, EV denotes combinations of camera settings required to give the nominally “correct” exposure. The formal relationship of EV to luminance or illuminance has limitations. Although it usually works well for typical outdoor scenes in daylight, it is less applicable to scenes with highly atypical luminance distributions, such as city skylines at night. In such situations, the EV that will result in the best picture often is better determined by subjective evaluation of photographs than by formal consideration of luminance or illuminance.

"For a given luminance and film speed, a greater EV results in less exposure, and for fixed exposure (i.e., fixed camera settings), a greater EV corresponds to greater luminance or illuminance."

So perhaps a more instructive statement might be: EV recommendations depend on ISO settings. Or, metering recommendations depend on ISO settings. Or, exposure recommendations depend on ISO settings.

Maybe others can come up with a better statement for beginners.

Tom

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texinwien
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Re: Auto ISO in Manual Mode. OLY m43 system
In reply to David Kieltyka, 8 months ago

David Kieltyka wrote:

texinwien wrote:

David Kieltyka wrote:

Exposure also depends on your ISO setting in RAW unless you shoot everything at base ISO and then push in post.

Could you clarify this statement? How does exposure depend on your ISO setting when shooting raw in manual mode (as dpreviewreader wrote, and as I shoot 95% of the time)?

You do have to choose an ISO (or let the camera choose it for you) even when you use RAW mode, yes?

This must be a rhetorical question, since I went into some detail in my initial reply to you about which ISO settings I use, and how I choose the ISO for each photo when shooting raw with the E-M5.

It doesn't just magically take care of itself.

Of course not, which, again, is why I went into some detail about my (active) ISO management practices in my first reply to you.

The ISO setting determines, to an extent, the range of apertures and shutter speeds you can use.

How and to what extent does it do this, again, with the caveat that we're shooting in manual mode?

Which in turn determines your exposure. Photo 101.

-Dave-

Many students stop at Photo 101, while some continue on to more advanced classes, wherein they learn that a few of the things they were taught in Photo 101 were little white lies that their professors teach to beginners in the hopes of making the theory easier for them to follow.

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texinwien
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Re: Auto ISO in Manual Mode. OLY m43 system
In reply to texinwien, 8 months ago

texinwien wrote:

David Kieltyka wrote:

Note that you can get around this with lenses that don't talk to the camera, like the Voigtländers, by using shutter priority with Auto ISO. Since the camera can't control the lens aperture this is effectively manual mode with exposure comp. capability.

-Dave-

I get around it by shooting in M mode 95% of the time with Auto ISO turned off. I shoot with full ISOs only, up to 1600 (so - 200, 400, 800 and 1600), always choosing the lowest ISO I can in order to get a combination of fast enough shutter speed and small enough aperture to suit my creative requirements.

After rereading this post of mine,  I realized I had been guilty of telling one of the photo 101 'little white lies' of oversimplification I mentioned here. Here's the Photo 220 version:

I generally expose to the right and capture raw files in manual mode at base ISO on my E-M5. Using base ISO on this camera yields the greatest dynamic range, which allows me to more optimally expose to the right, as long as there's enough light.

When there isn't enough light to ETTR at base ISO while maintaining sufficient DOF and a sufficiently fast shutter speed to freeze (camera and/or subject) motion to the degree I wish to freeze it, I will set my desired shutter speed and aperture, then adjust ISO upwards in full stops as high as I can (with an upper limit of ISO 1600) without blowing important highlights.

This procedure allows me to capture all the dynamic range my camera is capable of given the shutter speed and f-number required by my creative vision in combination with the scene luminance.

ISO in no way determines my shutter speed or f-number and, as such, plays zero role in determining my exposure. I believe this is the future we're all moving towards. It's just a matter of time, imo.

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David Kieltyka
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Re: Auto ISO in Manual Mode. OLY m43 system
In reply to texinwien, 8 months ago

texinwien wrote:

ISO in no way determines my shutter speed or f-number and, as such, plays zero role in determining my exposure. I believe this is the future we're all moving towards. It's just a matter of time, imo.

You must photograph mostly static subjects. I often take photos of things—people, cars, planes, etc.—in motion with the intent of capturing a sense of that motion. Quick-reaction photos with various degrees of motion blur, that is. With current tech it's still important to have an ISO range at my disposal that allows me to choose appropriate shutter speeds and apertures for the various looks I go for. So depending on the camera I'm using I can be very ISO-aware, though less so with newer gear. ISO-less tech is certainly coming...

-Dave-

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dpreviewreader
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Re: Auto ISO in Manual Mode. OLY m43 system
In reply to David Kieltyka, 8 months ago

David Kieltyka wrote:

dpreviewreader wrote:

This is a non-issue for those who shoot raw. Since exposure depends upon the f-stop and shutter speed only, shoot raw in manual mode, apply any exposure compensation by changing the shutter speed or f-stop and adjust the brightness during pp if the auto ISO selected is not what you want.

Exposure also depends on your ISO setting in RAW unless you shoot everything at base ISO and then push in post. I wouldn't recommend doing this. With recent Oly cameras, though, if you cap Auto ISO at 800 or so you should be okay "underexposing" and then pushing.

I don't understand why the exposure would depend upon ISO setting in M mode. You choose your f-stop and shutter speed and that is your exposure, whatever the ISO setting. One can move the exposure slider in post to change the brightness provided by the ISO value automatically selected by the camera.

Also, in manual mode with Auto ISO changing Tv or Av just causes the camera to shift the ISO in response. You're stuck with the camera's desired EV unless you turn off Auto ISO. (You can of course also use AE Lock to force a different EV.) Note that you can get around this with lenses that don't talk to the camera, like the Voigtländers, by using shutter priority with Auto ISO. Since the camera can't control the lens aperture this is effectively manual mode with exposure comp. capability.

Since EV depends upon f# and time only, the fact that the camera shifts the ISO value does not matter. The post I responded to originally talked about not having exposure compensation in M mode and I believe it meant that one should have the ability to override the ISO selected by the camera. This can be accomplished in post for raw images.

-Dave-

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purpleray
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Why no Ev compensation with Auto ISO in Manual?
In reply to GeorgianBay1939, 8 months ago

Hi

Tech wise, I am a beginner and need advice on the issue of auto ISO.

WHY AUTO ISO is important for me

I have been taking photos with some seriousness for over 40 years and so from my film days have a basic understanding of F stops, Shutter Speed and ISO and the relation between these in a given amount of light - EV's.

Now after many years taking casual photos of my kids growing up, I got a bit serious through taking photos of school musicals and then onto community opera and musicals and some occasional professional opera and musical groups.

Using 4/3s and now m4/3's, a bit of attention needs to be paid to exposure due to the high DR of theatre and often low light in significant parts of shots.  So DR and low light sensitivity and ISO range are important issues for my photos.

I used to religiously stick to ISO 800 or ISO 1600 ( the highest I could set the camera) when I used E510 and E520 to address these issues.  I would set F2.8 or F4 depending on the scene and move the EV compensation according to the scene, quite often -1.7EV to compensate for bright lights on leads.  I used to look at the changing light and scene and flick my EV dial accordingly.  I did have to address noise on the chorus and set quit often - the chorus and the production people were big buyers of the photos - so I couldn't just focus on the leads but had to show the whole context and scene.

With the E620, I tried Auto ISO and found that while some shots might be ISO 3200, most were less than ISO 800.  I still judged the light myself and constantly reset exposure through the EV dial.

Why Manual and auto ISO with EV compensation is important

Now the problem is that I have no control over the algorithim that sets ISO v changing shutter speed.  So sometimes the shutter speed is too low for the F stop I have chosen to match the DOF needed for the scene.

So Auto ISO with Manual F stop and shutter speed and with EV compensation is what I've been looking for.

So when you all seem to agree that there is no EV compensation any more - I am in grieving and I don't understand.  I need the EV compensation so I make the final decision on exposure.

How I thought Manual, auto ISO and Ev compensation would work

I imagined that with auto ISO and Manual, EV compensation would change the autoISO set for a particular shot.

Let's say I set F4 and 1/250 manually, the cameras metering would use the autoISO to say ISO800 would give the correct exposure for a particular shot.  From my experience and view of the scene, I decide -1.0EV would be better and so flick the dial.  I imagined that the camera would then set ISO400 instead.  So I would get my manually set F stop and shutter speed and using autoISO, I would override the cameras metering and get ISO400 instead of ISO800.

Why are my imaginings wrong?

Cheers

Ray

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GeorgianBay1939
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Re: Why no Ev compensation with Auto ISO in Manual?
In reply to purpleray, 8 months ago

purpleray wrote:

Hi

Tech wise, I am a beginner and need advice on the issue of auto ISO.

I am a full beginner, not just tech-wise!

WHY AUTO ISO is important for me

I have been taking photos with some seriousness for over 40 years and so from my film days have a basic understanding of F stops, Shutter Speed and ISO and the relation between these in a given amount of light - EV's.

Now after many years taking casual photos of my kids growing up, I got a bit serious through taking photos of school musicals and then onto community opera and musicals and some occasional professional opera and musical groups.

Using 4/3s and now m4/3's, a bit of attention needs to be paid to exposure due to the high DR of theatre and often low light in significant parts of shots. So DR and low light sensitivity and ISO range are important issues for my photos.

I used to religiously stick to ISO 800 or ISO 1600 ( the highest I could set the camera) when I used E510 and E520 to address these issues. I would set F2.8 or F4 depending on the scene and move the EV compensation according to the scene, quite often -1.7EV to compensate for bright lights on leads. I used to look at the changing light and scene and flick my EV dial accordingly. I did have to address noise on the chorus and set quit often - the chorus and the production people were big buyers of the photos - so I couldn't just focus on the leads but had to show the whole context and scene.

With the E620, I tried Auto ISO and found that while some shots might be ISO 3200, most were less than ISO 800. I still judged the light myself and constantly reset exposure through the EV dial.

Why Manual and auto ISO with EV compensation is important

Now the problem is that I have no control over the algorithim that sets ISO v changing shutter speed. So sometimes the shutter speed is too low for the F stop I have chosen to match the DOF needed for the scene.

So Auto ISO with Manual F stop and shutter speed and with EV compensation is what I've been looking for.

So when you all seem to agree that there is no EV compensation any more - I am in grieving and I don't understand. I need the EV compensation so I make the final decision on exposure.

I do not agree with those who say EV comp is unnecessary if/when using AutoISO in M(anual) Mode --- in the cameras that have AutoISO in Manual.

How I thought Manual, auto ISO and Ev compensation would work

I imagined that with auto ISO and Manual, EV compensation would change the autoISO set for a particular shot.

Right.  Set f/, shutter interval according to DoF and Motion Blur requirements.  Use EV C to "correct" AutoISO from its normal algorithm.  How you use EV C depends on your compromises between noise, highlight protection and pushing darks in software OR with ISO gain.

Let's say I set F4 and 1/250 manually, the cameras metering would use the autoISO to say ISO800 would give the correct exposure for a particular shot. From my experience and view of the scene, I decide -1.0EV would be better and so flick the dial. I imagined that the camera would then set ISO400 instead. So I would get my manually set F stop and shutter speed and using autoISO, I would override the cameras metering and get ISO400 instead of ISO800.

Why are my imaginings wrong?

Cheers

Ray

I don't think that there is anything wrong with your thinking.

I shoot panny, RAW, and Manual when in situations where I have high scene luminance range.  I set f/ and shutter interval, then ISO,  working up from base as required since I have no Auto ISO in Manual.  I use my histogram as my primary exposure aid (since I don't have Olympus style blinkies).  My objective is to get as much data into the RAW file as  possible, usually ETTR while preserving highlights.

If I were in a quickly changing scene luminance situation it would be nice to let the ISO float in "Auto" according to some algorithm IF AND ONLY IF I could change that algorithm with EC.

Ever since I started shooting RAW, I am no longer wedded to the Exposure Metering Equation , but choose to set exposure following my familiarity with my histogram output, the type of metering I am using and my experience with how much I can pull/push a RAW file in Lightroom 5.3.

Works for me.

Tom

PS   I started to shoot RAW when I wanted/needed maximum DR from my images at minimum noise.   It was then that I read gollywop and decoupled myself from the Exposure Metering Equation.  Although the divorce was rocky at times it worked out for the best in the long run.

t

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G1Houston
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Re: Auto ISO in Manual Mode. OLY m43 system
In reply to dpreviewreader, 8 months ago

dpreviewreader wrote:

This is a non-issue for those who shoot raw. Since exposure depends upon the f-stop and shutter speed only, shoot raw in manual mode, apply any exposure compensation by changing the shutter speed or f-stop and adjust the brightness during pp if the auto ISO selected is not what you want.

I would call this a work-around but not a non-issue. Even with the new sensor, the head room in the RAW files from m4/3 cameras is still limited so you can only push and pull may be 1-1.5 stops before the IQ suffers. I simply cannot understand why some many companies cannot fully implement auto-ISO in the M-mode with Exp Comp. Is there any technical reason why this is so difficult?

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