m3/4 mirrorless vs sony mirrorless

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: m3/4 mirrorless vs sony mirrorless
In reply to Lab D, 6 months ago

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Adapting Legacy/FF Lenses: APSc wins unless...

...there is no stabilization in camera or you want small telephoto lenses.

I would say for M43 a 50mm lens becomes a perfect 100mm portrait lens.  Since the GX7 has IS you can shoot at 1/50th easily which is still fast enough for most uses (you can even shoot a 1/20th in many cases too).    My favorite legacy lens is my 58mm F/1.8 which I find perfect for getting intimate shots without getting too close to distract people.  I can't imagine having to be limited to a 1/100th shutter speed in doors.   I also love take pictures and movies of my children at their school events.  Short lenses don't work well and you NEED stabilization for video in these cases.

Some people are happy with only wide angle lenses, but I love telephotos and since Sony makes none (that are small and fast) and doesn't have IS to stabilize legacy lenses, it is not an option for me.

Everyone is different.

I have Sony A-mount camera with in-body stabilization, and a Sony E-mount body with Optical Stabilization. So I am well aware of both systems.

Sony loves to talk about the In Camera stabilization in thsoe Alpha systems.  Rumors are they are going to copy Olympus in their upcoming bodies.  So many owners find it very helpful.

Sony 70-200mm f/4 OSS G (105-300 equiv)

It is sad that the only option is a full frame lens for a small mirrorless system.  Even the Canikon guys lament that F/4 is not a good aperture to use indoors which is why there are so many F/2.8 zooms and even faster primes.  $1500 seems a little too expenisve too for such a very large lens with a smaller aperture.

From reading the press releases and the Sony site it looks like they are focusing on these larger full frame lenses until at least 2015.

If I were looking at a SMALL mirrorless sytem I would not look at one where all the new lenses are going to be the larger full frame versions.

An optically stabilized 20x zoom range at constant f/4. For primes, most would pick 35mm f/1.8 OSS (normal) and 50mm f/1.8 OSS (portrait).

75mm is kind of short for many portraits and unless you want to use a smaller aperture like F/4 you have no other stabilizated option (forcing high shutter speeds).  What about 100mm or the very traditional 135mm?  Even 180mm is used in many cases.  Too bad you have no options for those focal lengths with a wider aperture and much needed stabilization.

A variety of FL is used for portraiture, even wide (even you admit that). What you do need to learn is that a lot of people have found 50mm on APSc as a portrait option.

Of course it is an option especially if that is all you have.  You made my point that you are very limited since many claim 85mm to 135mm are the traditional focal lengths.  IS becomes very important too since 1/135th shutter speed is also very limiting for indoors.

I love having options available.

As for 70-200, that would be my pick for a tele on any E-mount body

The $1500 E-mount lens is bulkier than the Canon and Nikon Full Frame lenses.  I didn't buy into mirrorless to spend that much on lenses that size with smaller apertures.

For indoors, in ambient light, usually even f/2.8 is too slow.

We do agree that F/2.8 is better than those Sony F/4 options and does work well indoors in many situations.  As you know M43 has lenses like the 75mm F/1.8 which acts like a stabilized 150mm lens.  I have several F/1.4 lenses (and an F/1.2) too that are ALL stabilized.

Again, if you shoot video IS is a must have just like it is for stills with any lens over 60mm.

You seem desperate to be in agreement. We are not. I specifically said that not even f/2.8 often works indoors without some kind of light assist. You should know that when you claim having 1.4 lenses.

As for your idea about 85-135mm being ideal for portraiture, that is exactly the meaty part of a 70-200 zoom lens. I personally use any of 35/1.8, 50/1.4 (two), 50/1.7 (two), 55/1.4, 70/2.8, 135/2.8 (or 95/2 via Speed booster) lens for portraits, basically covering 50mm, 75mm, 85mm, 105mm, 140mm or 200mm equiv. Ample choices if you know how to work the tool.

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D Cox
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Re: m3/4 mirrorless vs sony mirrorless
In reply to yonsarh, 6 months ago

yonsarh wrote:

Dave Lively wrote:

I switched from a Sony NEX-5N to a GX7 late last year. The larger sensor does give the NEX an edge in image quality but the cameras are close enough in that category you make your decision on other factors.

I am not familiar with the A6000 but my GX7 has a lot more physical controls that lets set the camera the way I want quickly and without having to stop and look at the LCD while searching through menus. There are also more lenses available for the GX7, the lack of a decent long lens for NEX was a big factor in my switching to m43. If you are going to stick with the kit lens initially the one on the GX7 is better than the one that came with my NEX-5N.

But if you are happy with the control layout of the A6000 and Sony has the lenses you want the A6000 is currently about $300 less expensive and has an edge (although not a large one) in image quality.

thx for the additional informations. AF will not be issue because my main use will be using only a manual focus lens from Nikon . As I see it on Amazon, both a6000 and gx7 are somewhat same price,which fits perfect on my budget.

I have been using manual focus (AI) Nikon lenses on the Sony 5N for a couple of years, with very good results. As the A6000 is basically an upgrade of the 5N and 6, it should do at least as well.

I can't comment on M4/3 as I don't own one.

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Lab D
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Re: m3/4 mirrorless vs sony mirrorless
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, 6 months ago

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

I specifically said that not even f/2.8 often works indoors without some kind of light assist.

Interesting since so many of us use F/2.8 lenses all the time without a flash or other type of asistance.  Check the Canon and Nikon Forums too.  The Canikon F/2.8 zooms are a lot more popular than F/4 zooms for this reason.

Since OP wants to use only older Nikon lenses, then I would recomend the camera with stabilization.  It will allow much slower shutter speeds, and it is a great advantage in many, many situations.

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: m3/4 mirrorless vs sony mirrorless
In reply to Lab D, 6 months ago

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

I specifically said that not even f/2.8 often works indoors without some kind of light assist.

Interesting since so many of us use F/2.8 lenses all the time without a flash or other type of asistance.  Check the Canon and Nikon Forums too.  The Canikon F/2.8 zooms are a lot more popular than F/4 zooms for this reason.

Since OP wants to use only older Nikon lenses, then I would recomend the camera with stabilization.  It will allow much slower shutter speeds, and it is a great advantage in many, many situations.

Canon 70-200/4 is VERY popular. Beercan (Minolta 70-210/4) is also a very popular lens among Sony shooters. A key reason is that it is fast enough for larger sensors, size/weight is manageable compared to 2.8 versions. In fact, Sony FE 70-200/4 OSS G would enable a smaller and lighter combination compared to what I consider to be a small, light and convenient choice: Minolta 200/2.8G. So, I would be trading 1-stop for zoom, likely faster AF, lighter weight and shorter combination.

May be these people you speak of shoot in indoor light conditions that is sufficient for 2.8 lenses. I generally do too (as I told you, my indoor lenses cover 50-200mm equiv at 1.4-2.8, including zoom). But, I also shoot indoors with f/4 zooms, preferably with light assist though. And what you think is impossible is something I thoroughly enjoy doing.

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neil holmes
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Re: m3/4 mirrorless vs sony mirrorless
In reply to yonsarh, 6 months ago

yonsarh wrote:

I am in the market choosing a GX7 or A6000. Other than difference between sensor size which camera produce better image quality ?

I have a GX7 and from Sony an A7.

I would expect the A6000 to have slightly better image quality but not enough to be a major reason to buy. (all recent cameras pretty much are very good).

Buying choice should (to me anyway) come down to the specs a camera has and how well it uses them.

http://www.dpreview.com/products/compare/side-by-side?products=panasonic_dmcgx7&products=sony_a6000&sortDir=ascending

The GX7 is a higher level camera with about 6 months older technology.

In favour of the GX7....

Tilting touch screen

Silent shutter mode

In body stabilization

nearly twice the res of the EVF (and it tilts)

horizon level in EVF (and LCD screen)

higher flash sync 1/320 vs 1/160

1/8000 max shutter speed vs 1/4000

Titanium body vs Composite (this one is subjective)

For video, built in LOSSLESS 2.6x teleconverter.

Autofocus works at a lower EV level (-4)

Small nice lenses take up little room.

In favour of the A6000.....

Slightly larger sensor (means slightly better IQ....all things being equal)

24mp vs 16mp

11 frames per second (with MUCH better focus tracking) vs 5 frames per second (not counting that the GX7 will do 40 fps at reduced size with focus and exposure fixed in electronic /silent shutter mode).

Neither has a mic jack for video but the A6000 can take one via the hotshoe.

A6000 video may well be better (from early assessments but yet to be seen).

A6000 focus peaking is likely to be better (A7 is MUCH better than the GX7 with manual focus lenses and I would think the A6000 should be too).

GX7 video limited to ISO 3200 maximum.....A6000 is not (I think).

Using the GX7.........

Silent shutter mode with touch screen autofocus and shutter in silent mode makes for a very nice stealth camera for street shooting and would be good for travel......silent/electronic shutter mode is not perfect....in some lighting it can have banding at some shutter speeds and panning will often result in severe rolling shutter for stills. Max ISO is 3200 in this mode also and a lot of things are turned off.

Focus peaking works ok with manual focus lenses but not always (and not anything like the Sony A7)....A6000 may well be better.

IBIS is ok ...works nice with the likes of a 200mm lens. Tilting EVF is wonderful for me and I am liking the touch screen AF AND shutter more and more (outdoors).

In camera panorama mode is nice with the GX7 (I prefer the A7s panorama mode and A6000 should be good) but both should be great).

2x lossy built in digital zoom is ok in a pinch (again as should be the Sonys).

It is silly that the GX7 does not have a Mic or headphones jack.... video controls in the GX7 are ok but a bit limited in some ways....not many audio settings....more wind cut filter choices though....Sony does auto ISO in video much better than Panasonic (at this level).....A6000 I would expect to be the same....maybe a A6000 owner can confirm. GX7 IBIS does not work in video mode.

Gx7 has much better video choices if MP4 is your choice over AVCHD.

I would highly recommend the GX7 as a general camera and for me, would be the better choice (I had mine before the A6000 was known but would likely have picked it on specs anyway).....if kids growing up is your thing or on price, the A6000 would be my choice.

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Lab D
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Re: m3/4 mirrorless vs sony mirrorless
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, 6 months ago

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

I specifically said that not even f/2.8 often works indoors without some kind of light assist.

Interesting since so many of us use F/2.8 lenses all the time without a flash or other type of asistance.  Check the Canon and Nikon Forums too.  The Canikon F/2.8 zooms are a lot more popular than F/4 zooms for this reason.

Since OP wants to use only older Nikon lenses, then I would recomend the camera with stabilization.  It will allow much slower shutter speeds, and it is a great advantage in many, many situations.

Canon 70-200/4 is VERY popular.

Have you noticed how there are more F/2.8 70-200 lenses and they are even more popular despite their higher prices?  I am sure this is due partially to them working better indoors. Tamron, Sigma, and Sony all sell multilpe versions of F/2.8 70-200 zooms but no F/4s.  Canon and Nikon sell a couple versions of the F/2.8 (with IS) while they only make one F/4 with IS.

Beercan (Minolta 70-210/4) is also a very popular lens among Sony shooters.

It is not as popular as other lenses and you can find it pretty cheap.  Most people who can afford it move up to the F/2.8 zooms like the 80-200 or many 70-200s.  Sony chose not to make the F/4 beercan lens for A mount but did use Minolta's 70-200 F/2.8 design.  Again, people don't like using the F/4 indoors or on low light and would rather have the F/2.8 which gives them more options.  Sony now has improved the F/2.8 zoom but still makes no F/4 version for A mount. They also kept Minotla IBIS and don't put IS in lenses because of cost, weight and size considerations.  They have stated in the past the IBIS is superior which I agree.  For the OP, a camera IBIS is the way to go.

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yonsarh
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Re: m3/4 mirrorless vs sony mirrorless
In reply to neil holmes, 6 months ago

neil holmes wrote:

yonsarh wrote:

I am in the market choosing a GX7 or A6000. Other than difference between sensor size which camera produce better image quality ?

I have a GX7 and from Sony an A7.

I would expect the A6000 to have slightly better image quality but not enough to be a major reason to buy. (all recent cameras pretty much are very good).

Buying choice should (to me anyway) come down to the specs a camera has and how well it uses them.

http://www.dpreview.com/products/compare/side-by-side?products=panasonic_dmcgx7&products=sony_a6000&sortDir=ascending

The GX7 is a higher level camera with about 6 months older technology.

In favour of the GX7....

Tilting touch screen

Silent shutter mode

In body stabilization

nearly twice the res of the EVF (and it tilts)

horizon level in EVF (and LCD screen)

higher flash sync 1/320 vs 1/160

1/8000 max shutter speed vs 1/4000

Titanium body vs Composite (this one is subjective)

For video, built in LOSSLESS 2.6x teleconverter.

Autofocus works at a lower EV level (-4)

Small nice lenses take up little room.

In favour of the A6000.....

Slightly larger sensor (means slightly better IQ....all things being equal)

24mp vs 16mp

11 frames per second (with MUCH better focus tracking) vs 5 frames per second (not counting that the GX7 will do 40 fps at reduced size with focus and exposure fixed in electronic /silent shutter mode).

Neither has a mic jack for video but the A6000 can take one via the hotshoe.

A6000 video may well be better (from early assessments but yet to be seen).

A6000 focus peaking is likely to be better (A7 is MUCH better than the GX7 with manual focus lenses and I would think the A6000 should be too).

GX7 video limited to ISO 3200 maximum.....A6000 is not (I think).

Using the GX7.........

Silent shutter mode with touch screen autofocus and shutter in silent mode makes for a very nice stealth camera for street shooting and would be good for travel......silent/electronic shutter mode is not perfect....in some lighting it can have banding at some shutter speeds and panning will often result in severe rolling shutter for stills. Max ISO is 3200 in this mode also and a lot of things are turned off.

Focus peaking works ok with manual focus lenses but not always (and not anything like the Sony A7)....A6000 may well be better.

IBIS is ok ...works nice with the likes of a 200mm lens. Tilting EVF is wonderful for me and I am liking the touch screen AF AND shutter more and more (outdoors).

In camera panorama mode is nice with the GX7 (I prefer the A7s panorama mode and A6000 should be good) but both should be great).

2x lossy built in digital zoom is ok in a pinch (again as should be the Sonys).

It is silly that the GX7 does not have a Mic or headphones jack.... video controls in the GX7 are ok but a bit limited in some ways....not many audio settings....more wind cut filter choices though....Sony does auto ISO in video much better than Panasonic (at this level).....A6000 I would expect to be the same....maybe a A6000 owner can confirm. GX7 IBIS does not work in video mode.

Gx7 has much better video choices if MP4 is your choice over AVCHD.

I would highly recommend the GX7 as a general camera and for me, would be the better choice (I had mine before the A6000 was known but would likely have picked it on specs anyway).....if kids growing up is your thing or on price, the A6000 would be my choice.

thx for the nice tips and so many other recommendations from different users . My choice is now almost 90% GX7.

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Amamba
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What FL you use is important
In reply to yonsarh, 6 months ago

Dave Lively wrote:

I switched from a Sony NEX-5N to a GX7 late last year. The larger sensor does give the NEX an edge in image quality but the cameras are close enough in that category you make your decision on other factors.

I am not familiar with the A6000 but my GX7 has a lot more physical controls that lets set the camera the way I want quickly and without having to stop and look at the LCD while searching through menus. There are also more lenses available for the GX7, the lack of a decent long lens for NEX was a big factor in my switching to m43. If you are going to stick with the kit lens initially the one on the GX7 is better than the one that came with my NEX-5N.

But if you are happy with the control layout of the A6000 and Sony has the lenses you want the A6000 is currently about $300 less expensive and has an edge (although not a large one) in image quality.

thx for the additional informations.  AF will not be issue because my main use will be using only a manual focus lens from Nikon . As I see it on Amazon, both a6000 and gx7 are somewhat same price,which fits perfect on my budget.

IQ aside, the 2x crop factor of m43 will turn most MF lenses into teles.

E.g. 28mm lens is 42mm FF equivalent on Sony, but 56mm on m43.

A 35-70 lens that I use for general walkabout on my Nex is too wide for cityscapes but perfect for a day out with family. On Sony sensor it's 52.5-105mm equivalent, on m43 70-140mm.

And of course the ubiquitous 50mm is 75 vs 100mm.

So if you use Tele ranges a lot, m43 with IBIS makes more sense. Otherwise I'd stick with a larger sensor and better low light performance.

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nevada5
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Discerning a difference
In reply to yonsarh, 6 months ago

yonsarh wrote:

I am in the market choosing a GX7 or A6000. Other than difference between sensor size which camera produce better image quality ?

will be akin to picking fly sh!t out of pepper with boxing gloves on.

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Amamba
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Re: What FL you use is important
In reply to Amamba, 6 months ago

I of course meant 35mm is too _long_ for cityscapes...

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steelhead3
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Re: m3/4 mirrorless vs sony mirrorless
In reply to neil holmes, 6 months ago

Do you know the difference between titanium and magnesium bodies?

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neil holmes
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Re: m3/4 mirrorless vs sony mirrorless
In reply to steelhead3, 6 months ago

steelhead3 wrote:

Do you know the difference between titanium and magnesium bodies?

Sorry, typo

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Camley
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Re: m3/4 mirrorless vs sony mirrorless
In reply to yonsarh, 6 months ago

yonsarh wrote:

I am in the market choosing a GX7 or A6000. Other than difference between sensor size which camera produce better image quality ?

How can you exclude sensor size when you are discussing image quality? That is the main driver of IQ.

The A6000 also has the better (for landscapes) 3:2 aspect ratio. Because of the larger sensor it's easier to crop a 3:2 to 4:3 than crop a 4:3 to 3:2.

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Glen Barrington
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Well, if you don't shoot landscapes all that often . . .
In reply to Camley, 6 months ago

Camley wrote:

yonsarh wrote:

I am in the market choosing a GX7 or A6000. Other than difference between sensor size which camera produce better image quality ?

How can you exclude sensor size when you are discussing image quality? That is the main driver of IQ.

The A6000 also has the better (for landscapes) 3:2 aspect ratio. Because of the larger sensor it's easier to crop a 3:2 to 4:3 than crop a 4:3 to 3:2.

it would seem pretty easy to do.  And if that is all that worries you about the difference between the two, change the A/R in camera.

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rxbot
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Re: Choose the system that has the lenses you want.
In reply to yonsarh, 6 months ago

Because there will be not much to tell them apart in IQ.

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