My dream full-frame camera.

Started 6 months ago | Discussions
Oly Canikon
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Re: And we thought Nikon's current management was poor
In reply to Rservello, 6 months ago

Rservello wrote:

But a D610 with no LCD or auto features shouldn't cost nearly as much to produce..

I do look at the histogram in order to make sure I am exposing evenly on a test shot, but after that I just shoot and look later.

So which is it? You want a D610 with no LCD but you want an LCD to check the histogram. You seem to be contradicting yourself.

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Lee Jay
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Re: My dream full-frame camera.
In reply to Rservello, 6 months ago

Rservello wrote:

Lee Jay wrote:

Rservello wrote:

Lee Jay wrote:

robin t wrote:

Weight: FT2 wins

Battery Life: FT2 slaughters
Image quality: equal
Indestructibility: FT2 by miles
Price: FT2
Quality glass at a reasonable price: FT2
Fun to use: FT2 in a landslide

So why can't we get back to this?

Because two of them are dead false, IMHO - Image quality and fun to use.

The image quality of film was pretty horrible unless you were shooting at ISO 100 or below (ISO 400 film was the red-line for me, while ISO 12,800 is the red-line in digital for me). And modern digitals have three distinct features that just crush old film systems for fun to use for me - ability to change ISO on the fly, tracking autofocus, and image stabilization.

For me, the reason I would want this is because of high ISO...the ability to shift ISO as a part of exposure selection as needed, and IQ. People love to glamorize the ability of film....but honestly...film can't compare in low light, hand held. Sure you could get an image but it would have massive motion blur and be grainy as hell. Digital has the distinct advantage of high speed low light ability. You can keep your auto anything. I just want to shoot like a film camera with the quality of digital.

90+% of what I shoot are moving targets, so tracking AF is a huge, huge advantage over the manual focus of my AE-1.

That would be your case use. But for someone that only shoots portraits, or still lifes, or even studio work....that would be very different. Again, you can have a D4s for high speed and a Leica M9 for weekend fun.

I don't understand at all how removing functionality makes something better.  You can always use single-shot AF or manual focus on an autofocus camera.  You can always ignore the back-panel LCD if you don't need it.  You can put the camera in M mode and use the in-camera meter or even an handheld light meter.  How does taking these in-camera features out of the camera improve either your photography or your enjoyment of using the camera?

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Rservello
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Re: And we thought Nikon's current management was poor
In reply to Oly Canikon, 6 months ago

Oly Canikon wrote:

Rservello wrote:

But a D610 with no LCD or auto features shouldn't cost nearly as much to produce..

I do look at the histogram in order to make sure I am exposing evenly on a test shot, but after that I just shoot and look later.

So which is it? You want a D610 with no LCD but you want an LCD to check the histogram. You seem to be contradicting yourself.

I said that is what I use the LCD for. Could I live without it...without a doubt. I feel like I tend to look at it just to confirm I am shooting correctly...9/10 times I glance and say...yup, looks great. So if I could stop that compulsion I would probably get more shots.

And I never said I want a D610 with no LCD.  I want the older form factor, and dials.  So, as the OP said.  An old camera with a digital sensor.

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D Cox
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Re: My dream full-frame camera.
In reply to Jack Hass, 6 months ago

Jack Hass wrote:

I agree, lets shoot freely without chimping or any other digital help, keep it as simple as possible. There's nothing more satisfying than getting that SD card home and seeing 250 back focused shots that have blown highlights.

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May Satan forever guide you.

Or coming home from a trip with several rolls of film all underexposed by three stops because the light meter in the camera was faulty.

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Re: My dream full-frame camera.
In reply to robin t, 6 months ago

robin t wrote:

Basically like an old nikon or nikkormat with a sensor in it.

My Nikon FM2 then FM3 of 20 years ago. F6 ain't bad and still available new.

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Aaron801
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If it doesn't have a finder of any kind...
In reply to robin t, 6 months ago

it could at least have a way to attach one of those bent wire looking rectangle things that some very old cameras had on top of 'em. If you really experiment and figure out just the right distance to have you're eye behind the thing, you could probably get a rough approximation of the framing of the shot. Better than nothing, right?

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Doss
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Some of us have different priorities
In reply to Aaron801, 6 months ago

I feel inclined to jump in here as RobinT & Rservello are not alone.

To the naysayers who say there'd be no market for such things: Well, yes there would. There are many of us out there who know our gear and know how to use it in such a way that we can hit correct exposure without the need to chimp, we can hit the correct focus using manual lenses (given a suitable manual viewfinder). For me, I practiced my technique and not wasting film depended on developing this skill. We see cameras as tools we need to depend on - so durability and battery life are two of the most important factors.

So, for some of you features like an LCD & AF may be an advantage, but to us they are just a battery drain, or extra things to go wrong or add to the manufacturing costs & weight.

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Rservello
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Re: Some of us have different priorities
In reply to Doss, 6 months ago

Doss wrote:

I feel inclined to jump in here as RobinT & Rservello are not alone.

To the naysayers who say there'd be no market for such things: Well, yes there would. There are many of us out there who know our gear and know how to use it in such a way that we can hit correct exposure without the need to chimp, we can hit the correct focus using manual lenses (given a suitable manual viewfinder). For me, I practiced my technique and not wasting film depended on developing this skill. We see cameras as tools we need to depend on - so durability and battery life are two of the most important factors.

So, for some of you features like an LCD & AF may be an advantage, but to us they are just a battery drain, or extra things to go wrong or add to the manufacturing costs & weight.

That's my biggest reasoning...those are useless features that add to cost and battery lose.  If I could get a camera that had no extras with the IQ of the D600 for the price of the D7100 (or even D5200) that would be awesome!

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Lee Jay
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Re: Some of us have different priorities
In reply to Doss, 6 months ago

Doss wrote:

I feel inclined to jump in here as RobinT & Rservello are not alone.

To the naysayers who say there'd be no market for such things: Well, yes there would. There are many of us out there who know our gear and know how to use it in such a way that we can hit correct exposure without the need to chimp, we can hit the correct focus using manual lenses (given a suitable manual viewfinder). For me, I practiced my technique and not wasting film depended on developing this skill. We see cameras as tools we need to depend on - so durability and battery life are two of the most important factors.

So, for some of you features like an LCD & AF may be an advantage, but to us they are just a battery drain, or extra things to go wrong or add to the manufacturing costs & weight.

But removing those features would make the camera more expensive rather than less.  That's because only a very tiny percentage of buyers would choose to purchase the version with the features removed, thus driving down the volume.  That means every one will have to pay a much larger portion of the fixed development costs.

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Lee Jay
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Re: Some of us have different priorities
In reply to Rservello, 6 months ago

Rservello wrote:

Doss wrote:

I feel inclined to jump in here as RobinT & Rservello are not alone.

To the naysayers who say there'd be no market for such things: Well, yes there would. There are many of us out there who know our gear and know how to use it in such a way that we can hit correct exposure without the need to chimp, we can hit the correct focus using manual lenses (given a suitable manual viewfinder). For me, I practiced my technique and not wasting film depended on developing this skill. We see cameras as tools we need to depend on - so durability and battery life are two of the most important factors.

So, for some of you features like an LCD & AF may be an advantage, but to us they are just a battery drain, or extra things to go wrong or add to the manufacturing costs & weight.

That's my biggest reasoning...those are useless features that add to cost and battery lose. If I could get a camera that had no extras with the IQ of the D600 for the price of the D7100 (or even D5200) that would be awesome!

Would you be willing to pay 50% more than a D600 for that?

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Lee Jay

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Rservello
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Re: Some of us have different priorities
In reply to Lee Jay, 6 months ago

Lee Jay wrote:

Rservello wrote:

Doss wrote:

I feel inclined to jump in here as RobinT & Rservello are not alone.

To the naysayers who say there'd be no market for such things: Well, yes there would. There are many of us out there who know our gear and know how to use it in such a way that we can hit correct exposure without the need to chimp, we can hit the correct focus using manual lenses (given a suitable manual viewfinder). For me, I practiced my technique and not wasting film depended on developing this skill. We see cameras as tools we need to depend on - so durability and battery life are two of the most important factors.

So, for some of you features like an LCD & AF may be an advantage, but to us they are just a battery drain, or extra things to go wrong or add to the manufacturing costs & weight.

That's my biggest reasoning...those are useless features that add to cost and battery lose. If I could get a camera that had no extras with the IQ of the D600 for the price of the D7100 (or even D5200) that would be awesome!

Would you be willing to pay 50% more than a D600 for that?

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Lee Jay

Sadly ridiculous logic.  While true, it is ridiculous.

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Lee Jay
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Re: Some of us have different priorities
In reply to Rservello, 6 months ago

Rservello wrote:

Lee Jay wrote:

Rservello wrote:

Doss wrote:

I feel inclined to jump in here as RobinT & Rservello are not alone.

To the naysayers who say there'd be no market for such things: Well, yes there would. There are many of us out there who know our gear and know how to use it in such a way that we can hit correct exposure without the need to chimp, we can hit the correct focus using manual lenses (given a suitable manual viewfinder). For me, I practiced my technique and not wasting film depended on developing this skill. We see cameras as tools we need to depend on - so durability and battery life are two of the most important factors.

So, for some of you features like an LCD & AF may be an advantage, but to us they are just a battery drain, or extra things to go wrong or add to the manufacturing costs & weight.

That's my biggest reasoning...those are useless features that add to cost and battery lose. If I could get a camera that had no extras with the IQ of the D600 for the price of the D7100 (or even D5200) that would be awesome!

Would you be willing to pay 50% more than a D600 for that?

Sadly ridiculous logic. While true, it is ridiculous.

It's reality, and for the reasons I stated in the other post.

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Aaron801
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Re: Some of us have different priorities
In reply to Doss, 6 months ago

Doss wrote:

I feel inclined to jump in here as RobinT & Rservello are not alone.

To the naysayers who say there'd be no market for such things: Well, yes there would. There are many of us out there who know our gear and know how to use it in such a way that we can hit correct exposure without the need to chimp, we can hit the correct focus using manual lenses (given a suitable manual viewfinder). For me, I practiced my technique and not wasting film depended on developing this skill. We see cameras as tools we need to depend on - so durability and battery life are two of the most important factors.

So, for some of you features like an LCD & AF may be an advantage, but to us they are just a battery drain, or extra things to go wrong or add to the manufacturing costs & weight.

Hey there... I was just kidding! Making a kind of "things where better in the old days, kid!" kind of comment. I happen to like viewfinders and I like AF, but I find that a lot of the extra stuff (especially any kind of in-camra effect) is totally unnecessary. I like to play around with manual focus though even though I like the option of AF.

I was experimenting with an old Nikon lens on my m 4/3 camera the other night and to really get the thing focused well at the max aperture I was using it at (due to very low light) felt like threading a needle! In a way I felt like the effort of doing that was taking away from everything else, like composition and capturing the moment. Still, the photos looked pretty good, much better than I thought they would and I'm kind of feeling like that manual focus thing isn't such a bad thing. In fact, it's s nice challenge. I'd like it better if the camera that I was using had a cross hairs kind of screen like the old 35mmm cameras had, but the focus aid that it does have despite not being ideal works well enough... even if it's more time consuming (and there's danger you'll miss a shot). I tell ya, when I was using 35mm gear I never coveted one of those camera systems with AF, my Nikon FE and the manual focus lenses that it uses were perfectly fine with me. Still, I like the new tech too (most of it) but I like the option of having some manual controls as well... The fact that I can use my old 35mmm lenses is HUGE for me. I'm digging that.

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Rad Encarnacion
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Re: Some of us have different priorities
In reply to Doss, 6 months ago

Doss wrote:

I feel inclined to jump in here as RobinT & Rservello are not alone.

To the naysayers who say there'd be no market for such things: Well, yes there would. There are many of us out there who know our gear and know how to use it in such a way that we can hit correct exposure without the need to chimp, we can hit the correct focus using manual lenses (given a suitable manual viewfinder). For me, I practiced my technique and not wasting film depended on developing this skill. We see cameras as tools we need to depend on - so durability and battery life are two of the most important factors.

So, for some of you features like an LCD & AF may be an advantage, but to us they are just a battery drain, or extra things to go wrong or add to the manufacturing costs & weight.

It is clear the three of you are missing the point: the question of "will it sell?" is not a question of whether the market exists, but a question of whether the market is big enough to justify the cost of production.

Nikon released the Df for $2749 at launch, so what makes you think they would sell the camera you want for less than that, when stripping out the back LCD practically guarantees that it would sell even less units than the Df?

It's not that Nikon can't make that camera - it's that Nikon's Return on Investment (ROI) wouldn't be acceptable at the price your market wants to pay. Conversely, the ROI would only be acceptable at a price your market doesn't want to pay.

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Rservello
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Re: Some of us have different priorities
In reply to Rad Encarnacion, 6 months ago

Rad Encarnacion wrote:

Doss wrote:

I feel inclined to jump in here as RobinT & Rservello are not alone.

To the naysayers who say there'd be no market for such things: Well, yes there would. There are many of us out there who know our gear and know how to use it in such a way that we can hit correct exposure without the need to chimp, we can hit the correct focus using manual lenses (given a suitable manual viewfinder). For me, I practiced my technique and not wasting film depended on developing this skill. We see cameras as tools we need to depend on - so durability and battery life are two of the most important factors.

So, for some of you features like an LCD & AF may be an advantage, but to us they are just a battery drain, or extra things to go wrong or add to the manufacturing costs & weight.

It is clear the three of you are missing the point: the question of "will it sell?" is not a question of whether the market exists, but a question of whether the market is big enough to justify the cost of production.

Nikon released the Df for $2749 at launch, so what makes you think they would sell the camera you want for less than that, when stripping out the back LCD practically guarantees that it would sell even less units than the Df?

It's not that Nikon can't make that camera - it's that Nikon's Return on Investment (ROI) wouldn't be acceptable at the price your market wants to pay. Conversely, the ROI would only be acceptable at a price your market doesn't want to pay.

Don't forget.  The Title of the thread is "Dream Full-Frame Camera"...since when does expressing his dream camera have ANYTHING to do with whether it would be profitable for anyone?  It basically means if a genie were to grant a wish it would be that.  Not that it would ever exist.

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Doss
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Re: Some of us have different priorities
In reply to Aaron801, 6 months ago

I really don't think the reason this 'dream-camera' would be expensive would be due to low take up. The reason it'd be expensive is because manufacturers know the people who really want this would throw their money at it!

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Rservello
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Re: Some of us have different priorities
In reply to Doss, 6 months ago

Doss wrote:

I really don't think the reason this 'dream-camera' would be expensive would be due to low take up. The reason it'd be expensive is because manufacturers know the people who really want this would throw their money at it!

See Leica

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Dave Lively
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Re: Some of us have different priorities
In reply to Rservello, 6 months ago

Rservello wrote:

That's my biggest reasoning...those are useless features that add to cost and battery lose. If I could get a camera that had no extras with the IQ of the D600 for the price of the D7100 (or even D5200) that would be awesome!

For about $100 you can buy a P&S with the usual exposure modes, autofocus (although not phase detect), video, 3 inch LCD, WiFi, etc.  So the total cost of all those items has to be less than $100.  They add little to the cost of a FF camera and make it appeal to a much larger market.  Deleting them would be like asking the maker of a $35,000 car to make you a model without cruise control and power windows and only charge you $25,000.

If you turn the LCD off it consumes no power.  Even if it did the battery on most SLRs lasts for close to 1000 shots and you can always carry a spare battery.  They take up a lot less room than 30 rolls of film would have.

It makes a lot more sense for camera manufacturers to make a model with all the features and let those of you that do not need them ignore them.  I personally have no use for video but having it in all my cameras does not hurt anything.  I just disable or reprogram the record button so I do not accidentally press it and ignore everything video related.

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Rservello
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Re: Some of us have different priorities
In reply to Dave Lively, 6 months ago

Dave Lively wrote:

Rservello wrote:

That's my biggest reasoning...those are useless features that add to cost and battery lose. If I could get a camera that had no extras with the IQ of the D600 for the price of the D7100 (or even D5200) that would be awesome!

For about $100 you can buy a P&S with the usual exposure modes, autofocus (although not phase detect), video, 3 inch LCD, WiFi, etc. So the total cost of all those items has to be less than $100. They add little to the cost of a FF camera and make it appeal to a much larger market. Deleting them would be like asking the maker of a $35,000 car to make you a model without cruise control and power windows and only charge you $25,000.

If you turn the LCD off it consumes no power. Even if it did the battery on most SLRs lasts for close to 1000 shots and you can always carry a spare battery. They take up a lot less room than 30 rolls of film would have.

It makes a lot more sense for camera manufacturers to make a model with all the features and let those of you that do not need them ignore them. I personally have no use for video but having it in all my cameras does not hurt anything. I just disable or reprogram the record button so I do not accidentally press it and ignore everything video related.

And yet, what is wanted is a FF camera with the form factor of an old DSLR...the ability, obviously, to use good lenses, dials for easy/fast control....a point and shoot will not do any of those things..will it. Personally, what I want already exists in a Leica M9....but at $7000 and $1000 for the cheapest prime...it aint happening anytime soon.

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bobn2
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Re: My dream full-frame camera.
In reply to Rservello, 6 months ago

Rservello wrote:

Lee Jay wrote:

robin t wrote:

Weight: FT2 wins

Battery Life: FT2 slaughters
Image quality: equal
Indestructibility: FT2 by miles
Price: FT2
Quality glass at a reasonable price: FT2
Fun to use: FT2 in a landslide

So why can't we get back to this?

Because two of them are dead false, IMHO - Image quality and fun to use.

The image quality of film was pretty horrible unless you were shooting at ISO 100 or below (ISO 400 film was the red-line for me, while ISO 12,800 is the red-line in digital for me). And modern digitals have three distinct features that just crush old film systems for fun to use for me - ability to change ISO on the fly, tracking autofocus, and image stabilization.

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Lee Jay

For me, the reason I would want this is because of high ISO...the ability to shift ISO as a part of exposure selection as needed, and IQ. People love to glamorize the ability of film....but honestly...film can't compare in low light, hand held. Sure you could get an image but it would have massive motion blur and be grainy as hell. Digital has the distinct advantage of high speed low light ability. You can keep your auto anything. I just want to shoot like a film camera with the quality of digital.

The point about it is that 'auto anything' costs nothing. You have to put a very powerful processor in a digital camera, and electrically controlled hardware is cheaper to manufacture above a very basic quality level (there are lots of reasons for that, that I can expand on, if you want). A digital camera is almost inevitable thicker than a film one and not everyone likes or wants a small camera anyway. The design of the Df almost certainly started out with the same kind of thinking as you, but each almost inevitable design decision that's made leads it from a digital FM to a Df.

i) Construction: Diecast aluminium chassis with pressed brass covers or plastic chassis with thixomoulded magnesium covers? Obviously the latter, because it's (a) cheaper, (b) stronger, (c) lighter, (d) compatible with current production lines.

ii) Shutter: use a clockwork one, or one from the parts bin? Obviously the latter, the performance will be better and it will be much cheaper, plus no R&D costs. So now it has an electronic shutter.

iii) Mirror mech: develop a new 'old' clockwork one or use one from the parts bin? Obviously the latter, for the same reasons as (ii)

iv) Metering: back to the old centre weighting or use components from the parts bin? Obviously the latter - the old components used by the FM will be unobtainable or very expensive now, so to go back to an analog of the old system means designing from scratch, with all the R&D costs. Unfortunately, the modern metering will make the prism housing quite a bit bigger, but in the end, it's not so sure that being small is universally a saleable feature.

v) AF? Well, we have an AF mirror box, and will AF lose sales? probably not. Look at the fuss that was made when the focus motor was left out of the low end. Put it in. If we don't we'll need a new range of lenses anyway.

vi) LCD on the back? People like chimping. An unchimpable camera loses some of the big advantages of video. Not putting it on simply restricts the market, so on it goes.

Voila - started with a digital FM2, ended with a Df.

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