My dream full-frame camera.

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
robin t
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My dream full-frame camera.
8 months ago

Basically like an old nikon or nikkormat with a sensor in it.

No screen of any kind - you can't see the image till you get home and upload it.
Indicator in the viewfinder for light meter.
Manual shutter wind.
Full manual controls, and works with legacy manual lenses.
Full frame sensor.

Hopefully this would allow for much better battery life than the new full frame cameras, as well as a much smaller form factor.

I guess this comes from looking at all my old prints and pining for the days of film SLRs. While I wouldn't want to have to process film anymore, I don't understand why, in 2014, you can buy a full-frame digital camera for anywhere near the price I bought my already 20 year old nikkormat ft2 for in 1994.

The astonishing thing is that old film cameras, despite having a relatively massive roll of film in them, win out in almost every comparison that matters to me.

1974 Nikkormat FT2 vs 2014 Nikon D610

Weight: FT2 wins
Battery Life: FT2 slaughters
Image quality: equal
Indestructibility: FT2 by miles
Price: FT2 
Quality glass at a reasonable price: FT2
Fun to use: FT2 in a landslide

So why can't we get back to this? A camera with nothing other than light meter, lens, optical viewfinder, and battery indicator. Get home, stick the SD card in your computer and see what you got.

Tell me why I'm wrong and I'll cave in and buy that new Nikon. . .

Nikon D610 Panasonic Lumix DMC-TS2 (Lumix DMC-FT2)
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darklamp
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Maths and Rose Colored Glasses
In reply to robin t, 8 months ago

I don't understand why, in 2014, you can buy a full-frame digital camera for anywhere near the price I bought my already 20 year old nikkormat ft2 for in 1994.

From Wikipedia :

The Nikon F with Nikkor 50 mm f/2 lens had a list price of US$359.50 in 1959

OK, those are 1959 dollars so allowing for inflation that equates to between $2180 and $11,200 in 2012 dollars depending on how you measure worth.

http://www.measuringworth.com

Now lets look at B&H today and what do we see : the D610 body only for $1895 and the Nikon 509mm f1.8G for $216. That's a total of $2111.

That's LESS than the lowest possible equivalent price of the Nikon F with a fast 50mm in todays money.

And the D610 and 50mm f1.8G are streets better in terms of performance and capability.

So those Rose colored spectacles of yours don't see things properly.

So why can't we get back to this? A camera with nothing other than light meter, lens, optical viewfinder, and battery indicator. Get home, stick the SD card in your computer and see what you got.

Because no one wants one when they could have a D610 instad.

And the D610 isn't the cheapest full frame. The Sony A7 full frame MILC is cheaper.

Get over the twentieth century. It's been dead a while now.

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Janoch
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Re: My dream full-frame camera.
In reply to robin t, 8 months ago

You don't have to use the LCD or other screens... mine is turned off and only use it, when "chimping". But I like to check, if the shot was nailed at site.

Alas, I'm surprised again and again, when looking through shots, once at home (rolls eyes)

Better battery life? I don't know... haven't still been able to "kill" a battery out there. More than 1000 shots per charge...

Image qulity = equal? I don't believe you!

And if you want a weight winner, just replace the D600 with a D800!

Will also increase the fun part...

Happy Hunting!

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D Cox
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Re: My dream full-frame camera.
In reply to robin t, 8 months ago

Buy a Sony A7. Cover the LCD with a bit of card. Don't, whatever you do, look through the viewfinder.

Use it with Nikon AI lenses. Or Olympus OM lenses. Or Topcors. Or whatever SLR lenses you like.

That gives you everything you want except manual film wind (which my Nikon F3 doesn't have either).

It also gives you much better image quality than any 35mm film above ISO 10.

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Rservello
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Re: My dream full-frame camera.
In reply to robin t, 8 months ago

robin t wrote:

Basically like an old nikon or nikkormat with a sensor in it.

No screen of any kind - you can't see the image till you get home and upload it.
Indicator in the viewfinder for light meter.
Manual shutter wind.
Full manual controls, and works with legacy manual lenses.
Full frame sensor.

Hopefully this would allow for much better battery life than the new full frame cameras, as well as a much smaller form factor.

I guess this comes from looking at all my old prints and pining for the days of film SLRs. While I wouldn't want to have to process film anymore, I don't understand why, in 2014, you can buy a full-frame digital camera for anywhere near the price I bought my already 20 year old nikkormat ft2 for in 1994.

The astonishing thing is that old film cameras, despite having a relatively massive roll of film in them, win out in almost every comparison that matters to me.

1974 Nikkormat FT2 vs 2014 Nikon D610

Weight: FT2 wins
Battery Life: FT2 slaughters
Image quality: equal
Indestructibility: FT2 by miles
Price: FT2
Quality glass at a reasonable price: FT2
Fun to use: FT2 in a landslide

So why can't we get back to this? A camera with nothing other than light meter, lens, optical viewfinder, and battery indicator. Get home, stick the SD card in your computer and see what you got.

Tell me why I'm wrong and I'll cave in and buy that new Nikon. . .

I agree 100%. This is what I hoped the df was going to be.

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stan_pustylnik
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it would be Sony A850 + video
In reply to robin t, 8 months ago

I own Sony A850 FF camera that I like very mush as a photographic tool. But It doesn't have video.

Next generation of Sony FF (A99) doesn't have OVF, A7r doesn't have (SSS).

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Person is taking photos, not camera. When photograph is bad, it's because photographer doesn't know how to choose settings optimal to "own preferences". Then blames camera for bad IQ.
This is same as blaming car about arriving to wrong destination.
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darklamp
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And we thought Nikon's current management was poor
In reply to Rservello, 8 months ago

So why can't we get back to this? A camera with nothing other than light meter, lens, optical viewfinder, and battery indicator. Get home, stick the SD card in your computer and see what you got.

I agree 100%. This is what I hoped the df was going to be.

And presumably a time travel device to sell these, because they won't sell now.

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Jack Hass
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Re: My dream full-frame camera.
In reply to robin t, 8 months ago

I agree, lets shoot freely without chimping or any other digital help, keep it as simple as possible. There's nothing more satisfying than getting that SD card home and seeing 250 back focused shots that have blown highlights.

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May Satan forever guide you.

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Rservello
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Re: And we thought Nikon's current management was poor
In reply to darklamp, 8 months ago

darklamp wrote:

So why can't we get back to this? A camera with nothing other than light meter, lens, optical viewfinder, and battery indicator. Get home, stick the SD card in your computer and see what you got.

I agree 100%. This is what I hoped the df was going to be.

And presumably a time travel device to sell these, because they won't sell now.

They would sell. There are still people that shoot photography for the enjoyment of mastering an art...not for the ability just to show off cool pics on facebook...or do it for a living. Would they sell for $3000....not a chance in hell. But a D610 with no LCD or auto features shouldn't cost nearly as much to produce...so it should put it into the cost range of a D7100 with the IQ of a D610. If I could get my old Canon AE-1 with a digital sensor back I would be ALL IN!

I personally shoot 100% manual and never look at the meter.  I do look at the histogram in order to make sure I am exposing evenly on a test shot, but after that I just shoot and look later.

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stan_pustylnik
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I agree 100%!
In reply to Jack Hass, 8 months ago

Jack Hass wrote:

I agree, lets shoot freely without chimping or any other digital help, keep it as simple as possible. There's nothing more satisfying than getting that SD card home and seeing 250 back focused shots that have blown highlights.

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May Satan forever guide you.

Ahahaha!

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Person is taking photos, not camera. When photograph is bad, it's because photographer doesn't know how to choose settings optimal to "own preferences". Then blames camera for bad IQ.
This is same as blaming car about arriving to wrong destination.
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Rservello
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Re: My dream full-frame camera.
In reply to Jack Hass, 8 months ago

Jack Hass wrote:

I agree, lets shoot freely without chimping or any other digital help, keep it as simple as possible. There's nothing more satisfying than getting that SD card home and seeing 250 back focused shots that have blown highlights.

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May Satan forever guide you.

If you are that bad at manual focus and require auto everything to shoot...maybe you should consider a point and shoot and leave the bulky DSLR at home?

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tko
tko
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yuck
In reply to robin t, 8 months ago

Why would anyone want that? Lets throw away 60 years of progress. Why not just buy an old film SLR and develop in the darkroom? Which, if you truly want the old-time experience, would be the only ethical way to go.

By the way, I've been shooting for about 50 years now . . . and I don't get this yearning for the past.

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Rservello
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Re: yuck
In reply to tko, 8 months ago

tko wrote:

Why would anyone want that? Lets throw away 60 years of progress. Why not just buy an old film SLR and develop in the darkroom? Which, if you truly want the old-time experience, would be the only ethical way to go.

By the way, I've been shooting for about 50 years now . . . and I don't get this yearning for the past.

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It's not about yearning for the past...its about an elegant approach to current tech.  Nobody is saying to go back to the old days of low quality high iso exposures, and developing in the dark room (but man I do miss that)...it's more about taking away the 600 computer features in the camera and having a nice weekend camera that just takes pictures...and nothing else.  Leica is the only one that is at least coming close...but they charge WAY too much for their gear.  If Fuji offered a full frame XT-1 that would be a really nice step forward in the right direction.

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GodSpeaks
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Re: My dream full-frame camera.
In reply to robin t, 8 months ago

robin t wrote:

So why can't we get back to this? A camera with nothing other than light meter, lens, optical viewfinder, and battery indicator. Get home, stick the SD card in your computer and see what you got.

Tell me why I'm wrong and I'll cave in and buy that new Nikon. . .

Main reason is that Nikon could probably only sell about 10.  That being the case, the cost to manufacture those 10 cameras would be astronomical.  Would you be willing to pay the price?

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GodSpeaks
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Re: My dream full-frame camera.
In reply to Jack Hass, 8 months ago

Jack Hass wrote:

I agree, lets shoot freely without chimping or any other digital help, keep it as simple as possible. There's nothing more satisfying than getting that SD card home and seeing 250 back focused shots that have blown highlights.

I never chimp and have never had that problem.

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stevo23
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Re: My dream full-frame camera.
In reply to robin t, 8 months ago

robin t wrote:

Basically like an old nikon or nikkormat with a sensor in it.

No screen of any kind - you can't see the image till you get home and upload it.
Indicator in the viewfinder for light meter.
Manual shutter wind.
Full manual controls, and works with legacy manual lenses.
Full frame sensor.

Hopefully this would allow for much better battery life than the new full frame cameras, as well as a much smaller form factor.

I guess this comes from looking at all my old prints and pining for the days of film SLRs. While I wouldn't want to have to process film anymore, I don't understand why, in 2014, you can buy a full-frame digital camera for anywhere near the price I bought my already 20 year old nikkormat ft2 for in 1994.

The astonishing thing is that old film cameras, despite having a relatively massive roll of film in them, win out in almost every comparison that matters to me.

1974 Nikkormat FT2 vs 2014 Nikon D610

Weight: FT2 wins
Battery Life: FT2 slaughters
Image quality: equal
Indestructibility: FT2 by miles
Price: FT2
Quality glass at a reasonable price: FT2
Fun to use: FT2 in a landslide

So why can't we get back to this? A camera with nothing other than light meter, lens, optical viewfinder, and battery indicator. Get home, stick the SD card in your computer and see what you got.

Tell me why I'm wrong and I'll cave in and buy that new Nikon. . .

Buy a film camera - that's what you're describing. You essentially taking away all the adavantages of digital by your description.

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Lee Jay
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Re: My dream full-frame camera.
In reply to robin t, 8 months ago

robin t wrote:

Weight: FT2 wins

Battery Life: FT2 slaughters
Image quality: equal
Indestructibility: FT2 by miles
Price: FT2
Quality glass at a reasonable price: FT2
Fun to use: FT2 in a landslide

So why can't we get back to this?

Because two of them are dead false, IMHO - Image quality and fun to use.

The image quality of film was pretty horrible unless you were shooting at ISO 100 or below (ISO 400 film was the red-line for me, while ISO 12,800 is the red-line in digital for me).  And modern digitals have three distinct features that just crush old film systems for fun to use for me - ability to change ISO on the fly, tracking autofocus, and image stabilization.

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Lee Jay

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Rservello
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Re: My dream full-frame camera.
In reply to Lee Jay, 8 months ago

Lee Jay wrote:

robin t wrote:

Weight: FT2 wins

Battery Life: FT2 slaughters
Image quality: equal
Indestructibility: FT2 by miles
Price: FT2
Quality glass at a reasonable price: FT2
Fun to use: FT2 in a landslide

So why can't we get back to this?

Because two of them are dead false, IMHO - Image quality and fun to use.

The image quality of film was pretty horrible unless you were shooting at ISO 100 or below (ISO 400 film was the red-line for me, while ISO 12,800 is the red-line in digital for me). And modern digitals have three distinct features that just crush old film systems for fun to use for me - ability to change ISO on the fly, tracking autofocus, and image stabilization.

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Lee Jay

For me, the reason I would want this is because of high ISO...the ability to shift ISO as a part of exposure selection as needed, and IQ.  People love to glamorize the ability of film....but honestly...film can't compare in low light, hand held.  Sure you could get an image but it would have massive motion blur and be grainy as hell.  Digital has the distinct advantage of high speed low light ability.  You can keep your auto anything.  I just want to shoot like a film camera with the quality of digital.

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Lee Jay
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Re: My dream full-frame camera.
In reply to Rservello, 8 months ago

Rservello wrote:

Lee Jay wrote:

robin t wrote:

Weight: FT2 wins

Battery Life: FT2 slaughters
Image quality: equal
Indestructibility: FT2 by miles
Price: FT2
Quality glass at a reasonable price: FT2
Fun to use: FT2 in a landslide

So why can't we get back to this?

Because two of them are dead false, IMHO - Image quality and fun to use.

The image quality of film was pretty horrible unless you were shooting at ISO 100 or below (ISO 400 film was the red-line for me, while ISO 12,800 is the red-line in digital for me). And modern digitals have three distinct features that just crush old film systems for fun to use for me - ability to change ISO on the fly, tracking autofocus, and image stabilization.

For me, the reason I would want this is because of high ISO...the ability to shift ISO as a part of exposure selection as needed, and IQ. People love to glamorize the ability of film....but honestly...film can't compare in low light, hand held. Sure you could get an image but it would have massive motion blur and be grainy as hell. Digital has the distinct advantage of high speed low light ability. You can keep your auto anything. I just want to shoot like a film camera with the quality of digital.

90+% of what I shoot are moving targets, so tracking AF is a huge, huge advantage over the manual focus of my AE-1.

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Lee Jay

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Rservello
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Re: My dream full-frame camera.
In reply to Lee Jay, 8 months ago

Lee Jay wrote:

Rservello wrote:

Lee Jay wrote:

robin t wrote:

Weight: FT2 wins

Battery Life: FT2 slaughters
Image quality: equal
Indestructibility: FT2 by miles
Price: FT2
Quality glass at a reasonable price: FT2
Fun to use: FT2 in a landslide

So why can't we get back to this?

Because two of them are dead false, IMHO - Image quality and fun to use.

The image quality of film was pretty horrible unless you were shooting at ISO 100 or below (ISO 400 film was the red-line for me, while ISO 12,800 is the red-line in digital for me). And modern digitals have three distinct features that just crush old film systems for fun to use for me - ability to change ISO on the fly, tracking autofocus, and image stabilization.

For me, the reason I would want this is because of high ISO...the ability to shift ISO as a part of exposure selection as needed, and IQ. People love to glamorize the ability of film....but honestly...film can't compare in low light, hand held. Sure you could get an image but it would have massive motion blur and be grainy as hell. Digital has the distinct advantage of high speed low light ability. You can keep your auto anything. I just want to shoot like a film camera with the quality of digital.

90+% of what I shoot are moving targets, so tracking AF is a huge, huge advantage over the manual focus of my AE-1.

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Lee Jay

That would be your case use.  But for someone that only shoots portraits, or still lifes, or even studio work....that would be very different.  Again, you can have a D4s for high speed and a Leica M9 for weekend fun.

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