m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour

Started Apr 3, 2014 | Discussions
edspen
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to genesys9, Apr 4, 2014

I wonder how an artist (painter) would be treated. If he would be allowed to take the tour, record the scenes to memory, then paint the landscapes (from memory). Would Kenny consider size of the tourist's hat (i.e. head size, i.e. brain size, i.e. medium format).

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Ken Gosden
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Re: His tour, his rules
In reply to MatsP, Apr 4, 2014

MatsP wrote:

So what is the deal?

No matter how reasonable/stupid his rules are, they should have been clear to you in the first place.

This seems to be once again one of those "4/3 as good as dslr" rants in disguise.

Anyway, I hope you found another tour that does not impose that restriction on you.

Cheers

Joerg

Yes if it's just a tour the organiser is free to have whatever requirements he/she wants. I got the impression from the OP that these were restrictions for just visiting the area and that sounded ridiculous to me.

Do the Navajos really own the land, as a tribe, or nation? That's interesting, in my country the Same people don't own any land as a tribe (they can own land as any private person can do of course) but they have exclusive right to keep reindeers in the whole Sapmi area, which is the northern half of my country, whoever happen to own the land (the mountain areas are owned generally by the state, the forests mainly by big companies but also farmers). And all land is free for everybody to visit, pick berrys or mushrooms, put up a tent for a few nights as long as you keep away from private houses.. And you can take photographs.

You have to remember that your country basically grew up from the native peoples.  In the Americas we pretty much kicked them out.  The US created treaties with these groups that make the relationship a blend between a foreign government and some special status citizens.  A lot of the lands they have dominion over are traditional and sacred; although this is mainly true for western tribes like the Navajo who always lived in the area they now have for reservations.  Eastern tribes like the Cherokee were pushed into areas they never knew.

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Rmark
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Re: 42% unemployment
In reply to D200_4me, Apr 4, 2014

The Navajo reservation is the largest native American reservation in the country. It is also very poor. 180,000 Navajo live on the reservation 42% are unemployed, 43% live below the poverty level.

I had the privilege of living on the reservation for three years early in my career. The land is truly spectacular, from Canyon De Chelly to Monument valley it is landscape photographer  paradise. The Navajo people are friendly, proud, funny, and  intelligent . Many live on less than some of us spent on camera gear in a year.

If they want to make you pay per person to park on their land..just pay it.

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Klarno
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Re: His tour, his rules
In reply to MatsP, Apr 4, 2014

MatsP wrote:

Do the Navajos really own the land, as a tribe, or nation? That's interesting, in my country the Same people don't own any land as a tribe (they can own land as any private person can do of course) but they have exclusive right to keep reindeers in the whole Sapmi area, which is the northern half of my country, whoever happen to own the land (the mountain areas are owned generally by the state, the forests mainly by big companies but also farmers). And all land is free for everybody to visit, pick berrys or mushrooms, put up a tent for a few nights as long as you keep away from private houses.. And you can take photographs.

The Federal Indian Reservations are held in trust by the US government, and the federal government is responsible for protecting tribal rights, lands and resources for the tribes (and the tribes themselves can generally use the lands as they see fit). It can be a bit complicated because of individual land grants and private ownerships (some by non-Indians) that predate the establishment of the reservations. The Tribes and Nations practice various degrees of administrative autonomy; some operate their own law enforcement, for example, while others let the BIA's own police force do it. The Federal Indian Reservations are generally not subject to state or local government laws.

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zackiedawg
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Re: Before you get your panties in a bunch. . .
In reply to MatsP, Apr 4, 2014

MatsP wrote:

This issue seems to be even more complicated than I could ever imagine...

It's not unlike the struggles of the Sami people in Scandinavia to retain their culture - with only Norway officially recognizing and protecting their rights to native lands - Sweden, Finland, and Russia so far do not protect their indigenous rights.

The United States formally recognized the indigenous rights of the Indian tribes whose land immigrants invaded and overruled, however late that may have occurred, which is why native Indian tribes now have these separate rules and protections.

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Alashi
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to amtberg, Apr 4, 2014

amtberg wrote:

So I could take my antique 8 MP 20D but not my very modern 16 MP GH3 which has much better image quality, far superior high ISO performance, and vastly better AF (and MF). How incredibly ignorant.

Absolutely correct! Ken perhaps needs to pay a visit to 2014 and discover that the EM1/EM10 sensors outdo the Canon 70D sensor. He's obviously not keeping up with the current technology. I suppose a Sony A7 or A7r would also be banned. Or, would he allow that along with the EM1/EM10 because they look like little DSLR's? Hmmm.

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Mario G
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to dave92029, Apr 4, 2014

dave92029 wrote:

Antelope Canyon is dark, and perhaps the requirements are all about making sure that the participants have a camera that has a phase detect AF system that can work in the low light environment.

What fast glass did you have?

The exclusion does not seem to mention anything about lenses.

How is an entry-level Canikon with kit lens any good in low light? And how would a GX7 or EM1 with some fast lens compare to it?

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edspen
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Re: 42% unemployment
In reply to Rmark, Apr 4, 2014

It would be interesting to know how much money was earned from stock photo's taken on their land. And, how much money made it back to help their community. What true native americans have had to endure is sadly forgotten. Their poverty makes most welfare recipients look like kings.

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peevee1
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to dave92029, Apr 4, 2014

dave92029 wrote:

Antelope Canyon is dark, and perhaps the requirements are all about making sure that the participants have a camera that has a phase detect AF system that can work in the low light environment.

What fast glass did you have?

What is the longest shutter release that you can shoot with the E-PL5?

The slot canyons are a fun place to shoot, but you do need the proper gear to shoot in that high iso environment.

E-PL5 has better high ISO than film for medium format SLRs.

But of course for tripod landscape shooting you do not even need ISO higher than base.

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Tanngrisnir3
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How odd. I was there two years ago with an LX5....
In reply to peevee1, Apr 4, 2014

and they let me right in.

Spent over two hours there.

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photohounds
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Re: 42% unemployment
In reply to Rmark, Apr 4, 2014

Rmark wrote:

The Navajo reservation is the largest native American reservation in the country. It is also very poor. 180,000 Navajo live on the reservation 42% are unemployed, 43% live below the poverty level.

I had the privilege of living on the reservation for three years early in my career. The land is truly spectacular, from Canyon De Chelly to Monument valley it is landscape photographer paradise. The Navajo people are friendly, proud, funny, and intelligent . Many live on less than some of us spent on camera gear in a year.

If they want to make you pay per person to park on their land..just pay it.

Quite right, but I'll bet they are smart enough not to be snobbish about what kind of car (or camera) hot have.  I'd love to go there one day

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Lawrence W
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to genesys9, Apr 5, 2014

I have read with interests lots of posts here about the rules of the Lower Antelope Canyon.

My wife and I went there last year, joined the photographic tours. The prerequisite is tripods and DSLR. At least a couple must have one to be qualified. I witnessed a guy with big gear got turned away because he hasn't got tripod.

The reason is that shooting such amazing landscapes require timing and proper execution. The light beams through that particular opening, only that time of the day (that time of the year), and you need to be prepared by then. A few minutes later, there is nothing left to photograph as the beam is gone. The Navajos know exactly that. They control the crowd. Stopping non-photo tour guys from going through, and give the photo tour guys enough time to set up tripods, set the cameras etc. All professionally done.

Non- photo tours can use cell phone or whatever. They are supposed to take quick snapshots and walk away. It is probably good enough for some folks, but I don't think it is doing justice to this magnificent landscape.

I know these can be better organised, but this is their simple management rules that work for most, but not for everyone. Just need to know what you want, and what they want, and then we can all have a great time taking gorgeous landscape pictures. For us, this was definitely the highlight of our N America tour last year. I strongly recommended it to my son and daughter in law who will be shooting there early summer, with the right gear.

On a different but related subject, these canyons did not require tours some 20 years ago when all can walk in and out and shoot happily. Then, on a certain fateful day, some tourists went on their own, without listening to storm weather forecast of mountains in the upper stream.  All were drowned.

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peevee1
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to MatsP, Apr 5, 2014

MatsP wrote:

Wow! I'm glad I live in a country where everybody as the general rule has the right to access all land, private or not.

Huh? I can walk into your backyard without your permission?

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ApertureAcolyte
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to JBurnett, Apr 5, 2014

JBurnett wrote:

PC Wheeler wrote:

Well, I just looked up the tour details http://www.lowerantelope.com/aboutTheTour.php and it says

"Photographer's pass is 2 hours in duration. One photo pass for each individual with the required equipment. You can purchase the pass at the booth. The REQUIRED equipment are a SLR camera, medium or large format WITH a tripod. No guide is provided for the photographer, but a Canyon Monitor will check on you periodically for questions or assistant.

Things to bring:

• SLR camera (medium or large format) required
• Extra film or memory cards.
• Batteries
• Tripod required
• Plastic bag (for windy days to protect camera or lens)"

Seems a bit stupid, but an m4/3 is not an SLR (bolding is theirs, not mine).

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Phil

Ah, well. The requirement for medium or large format means that no Nikon or Canon cameras are allowed either. Just Hasselblads, Mamiya, Phase One, Pentax 645 and a few others. Oh, and a Graflex or Gowland 4x5" film SLR of course. That doesn't leave many customers.

Some people have no clue.

Sounds like an elitist circle jerk.

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agentlossing
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to peevee1, Apr 5, 2014

peevee1 wrote:

MatsP wrote:

Wow! I'm glad I live in a country where everybody as the general rule has the right to access all land, private or not.

Huh? I can walk into your backyard without your permission?

My guess is a nation where trespassing was legal wouldn't stay sovereign for very long?

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ApertureAcolyte
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Re: 42% unemployment
In reply to Rmark, Apr 5, 2014

Rmark wrote:

If they want to make you pay per person to park on their land..just pay it.

To line the pockets of the economic ruling class who don't share it?

Thanks for the laugh

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BJL
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to genesys9, Apr 5, 2014

I did a Lower Antelope photographer's tour with my EM5 (and got some wonderful photos, without even needing a tripod despite all the talk about one being essential). My guess is that all they mean by "SLR" is "a serious-looking camera, not a point and shoot", because the snap shooters are better off on the general tours rather than the special photographic ones that accommodate tripod users and moving more slowly. The guide had to tell some of the other participants how to get their big new SLRs out of "green rectangle" full auto mode.

And of course, there is no need for a DSLR's phase detect autofocus; the rocks are not moving very fast, and controlling exposure to handle the sometimes very high subject brightness range is the main technical challenge.

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MatsP
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to peevee1, Apr 5, 2014

peevee1 wrote:

MatsP wrote:

Wow! I'm glad I live in a country where everybody as the general rule has the right to access all land, private or not.

Huh? I can walk into your backyard without your permission?

This is common misunderstanding. The common right to access privately owned land doesn't concern the immediate vicinity to one's house, but outside eyesight and hearing distance it's okay. But you're welcome of course, if you call me first

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MatsP
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to agentlossing, Apr 5, 2014

agentlossing wrote:

peevee1 wrote:

MatsP wrote:

Wow! I'm glad I live in a country where everybody as the general rule has the right to access all land, private or not.

Huh? I can walk into your backyard without your permission?

My guess is a nation where trespassing was legal wouldn't stay sovereign for very long?

Well, my country has stayed sovereign since 1000 years or so, and this right is av very old tradition. But remember that this rights doesn't give you the right to access ones house or immediate vicinity to the house. You need to be outside eyesight and hearing distance.

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jml2061
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to dave92029, Apr 5, 2014

I am sure that all those D5300+kit lens wielding professional DSLR photographers got amazing shots. But beyond that, I am sure I know a few people who'd get amazing shots using a Digilux II.

Digital snobbery aside, there's no reason to fix the quality of a camera or the shooter's abilities on sensor size. "That's for amateurs" is a line I only ever heard uttered by other amateurs who need body, glass, and sensor size to gloss over the size of their bookings and paychecks.

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