m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
Eamon Hickey
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Re: it's a Navajo park; access is controlled as in many other parks
In reply to Midwest, 8 months ago

Midwest wrote:

We gave the Native Americans a very small sliver of what was once their continent and the very least we can do is give them the right to govern THAT.

Indeed. My sense is that the relationship between tribal reservation law and U.S. law is not simple, but I would never go waving the constitution in their face, given that the Navajo's ancestors were probably discovering the wonders of Antelope Canyon 15,000 years before my ancestors set foot on this continent.

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Mike Dobbs
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Re: it's a Navajo park; access is controlled as in many other parks
In reply to Eamon Hickey, 8 months ago

Eamon Hickey wrote:

Midwest wrote:

We gave the Native Americans a very small sliver of what was once their continent and the very least we can do is give them the right to govern THAT.

Indeed. My sense is that the relationship between tribal reservation law and U.S. law is not simple, but I would never go waving the constitution in their face, given that the Navajo's ancestors were probably discovering the wonders of Antelope Canyon 15,000 years before my ancestors set foot on this continent.

Wonder if 15,000 yrs ago they had restrictions on the type of cave paint (pigment/colour etc) required for a permit...

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Houseqatz
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Re: LOL They don't allow any digital cameras at all. Boycott!
In reply to wootpile, 8 months ago

wootpile wrote:

You can be sure the requirement details stem from a time now gone. Not the staff's fault, but seriously lazy management who doesn't care.. or more probably hasn't got a clue about photography.

If you look closely at their requirements it says:

in one instance: slr, medium or large format - so any of the three is ok

in another instance it says slr(medium or large format) - meaning all slr's that are BELOW medium format are not eligible. this is without a doubt a typo, and one that the staff think is law.

With their current mindset - you can't participate with a fullframe 36 megapixel Sony 7r --- because it's a mirrorless camera - not a SLR

Oh WAIT!!! according to the http://www.lowerantelope.com/aboutTheTour.php you are not allowed entry with ANY DIGITAL CAMERA AT ALL. It clearly says SLR..

If you traveled +2000 miles to participate and was denied entry based on poor staff education.. I would send them a invoice for travel expenses.

Bottom line - they are idiots and haven't got a clue what they are doing and their customer service thereby sucks.

Boycott them until they start wondering why everyone stopped coming.

LOL, good luck getting them to sign off on travel expenses for not following their vaguely explicit wording on photography equipment

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david kohn
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You know very little about Geography of Native American governance
In reply to gregbartgis, 8 months ago

1)  Antelope Canyon is NOT part of the Grand Canyon, nor is it under the jurisdiction of the National Park Service.

2) The Navajo Nation DOES have its own police force and courts etc.

3) Antelope Canyon is a tribal park

4) Tribal parks are not "public land",  they are tribal land.

5) Access to tribal lands are subject to tribal laws.

If you don't like the above, then feel free to go somewhere else.

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Serickmetz
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to genesys9, 8 months ago

You should have followed the rules and brought a bigger camera if u wanted pics. They can't change their rules for 1 person who's upset.

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Wu Jiaqiu
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Re: it's a Navajo park; access is controlled as in many other parks
In reply to gregbartgis, 8 months ago

gregbartgis wrote:

Revenge trumps justice or fairness?

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The elimination of the mirror has introduced a new concept into the interchangeable lens digital camera market - compactness (kind of like what happened when Oscar Barnack created the Leica).

if it's their land you play by their rules, would you go to another country and flaunt the laws of the land and expect to be treated fairly?

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BigGG
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to genesys9, 8 months ago

I have never been there (Lower Antelope Canyon ) but it looks like a very interesting trip.. How long is the hiking part of the tour?

GaryG

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neil holmes
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Re: RTFM - medium or large format!
In reply to arbuz, 8 months ago

arbuz wrote:

neil holmes wrote:

PC Wheeler wrote:

Well, I just looked up the tour details http://www.lowerantelope.com/aboutTheTour.php and it says

"Photographer's pass is 2 hours in duration. One photo pass for each individual with the required equipment. You can purchase the pass at the booth. The REQUIRED equipment are a SLR camera, medium or large format WITH a tripod. No guide is provided for the photographer, but a Canyon Monitor will check on you periodically for questions or assistant.

Things to bring:

• SLR camera (medium or large format) required
• Extra film or memory cards.
• Batteries
• Tripod required
• Plastic bag (for windy days to protect camera or lens)"

Seems a bit stupid, but an m4/3 is not an SLR (bolding is theirs, not mine).

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Phil

So just take a tripod and any old DSLR (smaller the better....old Pentax APSC fit the bill or better still a film SLR like a Spotmatic) AND your other camera.

How did you get 7 supporting votes for you ignorant post?

same way you got two for yours I guess!

Do you know what medium or large format is? it is not APS-C and it is not 35mm. it's bigger.

I took that as being a dslr including medium format and large format...if it is not I made a mistake....guess I am not perfect like you huh.....but then I looked up the sight and saw it said SLR (comma) medium or large format.....which makes a lot more sense given that there are no large format SLRs and many medium format cameras are rangefinders.

I know perfectly well what medium and large format is (I have a medium format camera but it is not eligible as it is a rangefinder).

What LARGE format SLR would you bring?

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genesys9
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to BigGG, 8 months ago

BigGG, The guided tour is 90 minutes while the photographer pass gives you 2 hours alone and without assistance.

BigGG wrote:

I have never been there (Lower Antelope Canyon ) but it looks like a very interesting trip.. How long is the hiking part of the tour?

GaryG

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Lab D
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to Serickmetz, 8 months ago

Serickmetz wrote:

You should have followed the rules and brought a bigger camera...

Like a Brownie.

As mentioned any Lecia is too "Small".

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Michael Meissner
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to genesys9, 8 months ago

I take the view that the tour operator can design whatever tours they want. Assuming they are limiting it to just Medium/Large format film bodies, so what? Presumably, part of the lure of the tour is meeting all of the people into that type of photography. And no doubt sit in the beer hall later, yelling at those kids walking on the grass (i.e. using any camera with a smaller sensor than 2x3"). Is it different from having a Mustang rally, and getting disappointed that they don't allow a Dodge Charger in it?

Is it worth trying to change things?  Sure, you can try.  Maybe it will work, maybe not.

While I might not ever want to join such a group, it is fairly common, particularly as people feel the changes are destroying the things that brought them into the hobby in the first place and made them special. Heck, you see it all of the times, where the full frame folk look down on the mirrorless interchangeable folk, bought groups looks down on the point & shoot cameras, and all three groups looks down on cell phone cameras.

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Bill Wallace
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to genesys9, 8 months ago

This is all very strange..  I was in lower antelope, I don't think we did the photography tour  but maybe we did, they left us alone and at our own pace, and there were other peeps there, mostly Japanese, shooting with everything under the sun...we had dslr's, I didn't shoot micro exclusively then, but to not be allowed to shoot what you brought is absurd. It's still interchangeable lens equipment...but the Native Americans have there rules, it is their land and they can be very strict about such things. This is their primary way of making a living in Page and it is tribal land.

This is all very odd and I for a second don't think Ken Rockwell has his fingers in the pot...not on tribal land!

Bill

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Michael Meissner
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to Bill Wallace, 8 months ago

Bill Wallace wrote:

This is all very odd and I for a second don't think Ken Rockwell has his fingers in the pot...not on tribal land!

As has been said over and over again.  The OP made a mistake (and has posted several times) in thinking the tour called Ken's tours was involved with Ken Rockwell.  Unfortunately you only get 2 chances to edit the original article in a short period of time, and the OP can't go back to change it now.  So everybody new starts with Ken Rockwell once again.

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neil holmes
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Or if they are too big
In reply to Lab D, 8 months ago

Lab D wrote:

cainn24 wrote:

gregbartgis wrote:

They can't tell you not to take a picture because they don't like your gear - unless,of course, you are throwing your discarded polaroid wrappers in the river!

As detailed by Gordon Laing, you can go on a guided tour with any camera you like. You just can't get a permit to go on a "self-guided" tour without a DSLR. It's still a wholly absurd restriction and betrays a disturbing lack of knowledge about the caliber of modern mirrorless camera gear, but the point is that they're not actually flatly denying anyone access.

As other have said you could pick up a use E-420, broken E-1, or even a film Canon AE-1 on ebay, and bring it along for access. Simple carry your mirrorless camera in your bag and have the old film SLR hanging from you neck for looks.

A Pentax 110 or Oly pen film slr.

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arbuz
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Re: RTFM - medium or large format!
In reply to amtberg, 8 months ago

amtberg wrote:

arbuz wrote:

neil holmes wrote:

PC Wheeler wrote:

Well, I just looked up the tour details http://www.lowerantelope.com/aboutTheTour.php and it says

"Photographer's pass is 2 hours in duration. One photo pass for each individual with the required equipment. You can purchase the pass at the booth. The REQUIRED equipment are a SLR camera, medium or large format WITH a tripod. No guide is provided for the photographer, but a Canyon Monitor will check on you periodically for questions or assistant.

Things to bring:

• SLR camera (medium or large format) required
• Extra film or memory cards.
• Batteries
• Tripod required
• Plastic bag (for windy days to protect camera or lens)"

Seems a bit stupid, but an m4/3 is not an SLR (bolding is theirs, not mine).

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Phil

So just take a tripod and any old DSLR (smaller the better....old Pentax APSC fit the bill or better still a film SLR like a Spotmatic) AND your other camera.

How did you get 7 supporting votes for you ignorant post?

Do you know what medium or large format is? it is not APS-C and it is not 35mm. it's bigger.

You should actually take a minute to read the original post before you climb on your high smart a$$ horse. The tour requirement was for medium or large CAMERA -- not medium or large FORMAT. Apparently their purpose was to limit the tour to "serious" photographers who they assumed would be using DSLRs.

Edit: if you go to the Ken Tour website they actually specify "SLR (medium or large format)". I think they mean APS-C or full frame rather than medium or large format film/sensor size, since AFAIK there's actually no such thing as a large format SLR. Also they would be limiting their audience to a very small group indeed.

Your thinking confirms all I have written. There is an organized photo tour which asks for, wait for it,

"SLR camera (medium or large format) required"

while you keep saying it's about APS-C or FF. No large format SLR? LOL.

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rwl408
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Re: it's a Navajo park; access is controlled as in many other parks
In reply to Eamon Hickey, 8 months ago

Yes, some control is necessary. It is the same reason that a permit (with a daily limit number) is required to clime Half Dome in Yosemite National Park nowadays. It is inconvenient but we should all for it to protect the nature as much as possible.

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arbuz
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to amtberg, 8 months ago

amtberg wrote:

arbuz wrote:

amtberg wrote:

So I could take my antique 8 MP 20D but not my very modern 16 MP GH3 which has much better image quality, far superior high ISO performance, and vastly better AF (and MF). How incredibly ignorant.

Yes, sure, since your antique 20D is a medium or large format camera. "How incredibly ignorant"

I think this topic illustrates the reason for that requirement. The workshop is for the people that have some basic of photography and did not just migrate from iphone. If you and all the others responding to the thread do not know what is medium or large format camera then it's not even worth going the route of explaining how different is the process taking pictures with you "very modern" point and shot Gh3 vs medium format camera.

The tour did not require medium or large FORMAT, but rather medium or large CAMERA. Clearly they were limiting entry to those using DSLRs rather than field cameras. The GH3 is no more a point and shoot than a Nikon D4.

Really?

http://www.lowerantelope.com/aboutTheTour.php

"SLR camera (medium or large format) required"

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Eamon Hickey
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yeah, I've seen enough
In reply to XPro10, 8 months ago

XPro10 wrote:

Antelope Canyon and nearby "the Wave" have become cliche if you ask me. How many more millions of shots does the world need of these?

Yeah, I don't typically bemoan photographic cliches -- there's just too many and I'm a serial offender myself -- but, well, I'm inspired today. I've seen as many Antelope Canyon pictures as I ever need to in 5 lifetimes. And I haven't seen one in 20 years that looked any different from the first ones I saw back in the 1980s.

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Hen3ry
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Love it, love it, love it Michael!
In reply to Michael Meissner, 8 months ago

You are a total whacko in the best possible way. I would never do what you have done but absolutely love it and what it says about your approach to life!

What a solution! LOL!

Gawd, here's a thought -- maybe I should be carving out a coconut for my G6!

Cheers, geoff

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agentlossing
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Re: Love it, love it, love it Michael!
In reply to Hen3ry, 8 months ago

What a fun read this thread has been! There were many things to chuckle at, and I can't help but be secretly, just a little bit, pleased at Ken Rockwell being unfairly thrown under the bus (it's a crying shame! Back up and run him over again!).

The sad element is that toting an SLR says NOTHING about how "serious" you are, as the thousands of yuppies with a Nikon or Canon entry level DSLR slung over thier shoulder by those annoying brand ad slings so aptly display...

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