m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour

Started 5 months ago | Discussions
Wu Jiaqiu
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Re: it's a Navajo park; access is controlled as in many other parks
In reply to gregbartgis, 5 months ago

gregbartgis wrote:

I do understand what you are getting at, though I still feel that the Navajo Nation probably has no right to deprive a US citizen of his/her constitutional rights.

ironic post of the month?

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amtberg
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to arbuz, 5 months ago

arbuz wrote:

amtberg wrote:

So I could take my antique 8 MP 20D but not my very modern 16 MP GH3 which has much better image quality, far superior high ISO performance, and vastly better AF (and MF). How incredibly ignorant.

Yes, sure, since your antique 20D is a medium or large format camera. "How incredibly ignorant"

I think this topic illustrates the reason for that requirement. The workshop is for the people that have some basic of photography and did not just migrate from iphone. If you and all the others responding to the thread do not know what is medium or large format camera then it's not even worth going the route of explaining how different is the process taking pictures with you "very modern" point and shot Gh3 vs medium format camera.

The tour did not require medium or large FORMAT, but rather medium or large CAMERA.  Clearly they were limiting entry to those using DSLRs rather than field cameras.  The GH3 is no more a point and shoot than a Nikon D4.

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Klarno
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Re: it's a Navajo park; access is controlled as in many other parks
In reply to gregbartgis, 5 months ago

gregbartgis wrote:

As stated in subsequent threads, I wasn't aware of the status of these lands. If they're considered private property, then none of my constitutional arguments apply. If they are owned by the Navajos then all rules applying to rights to privacy apply. I think there may still be some exceptions in this case, but it's not my concern. My concern is with speech rights in public places. Photography is speech.

Photography is speech, yes, but I'm not sure the kind of camera you shoot with quite qualifies as constitutionally protected speech. At least, not any more than a government form needing to be filled out with a blue or black pen or a #2 pencil.

Considering the specifics of this situation (Federal Indian Reservation lands are not public lands as far as non-tribal persons are concerned), I think it would be more interesting and beneficial to the general welfare to fight the cities that require permits to shoot in public spaces when they think you "look pro" (shooting with a big camera, on a tripod and/or with a speedlight).

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gregbartgis
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Re: it's a Navajo park; access is controlled as in many other parks
In reply to Klarno, 5 months ago

Absolutely concur!

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The elimination of the mirror has introduced a new concept into the interchangeable lens digital camera market - compactness (kind of like what happened when Oscar Barnack created the Leica).

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dgrogers
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Your mistake
In reply to genesys9, 5 months ago

As soon as you saw anything related to Ken Rockwell, you should have known to stay away.  His photography skills are amateur at best anyway.

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Completely infatuated with the "OMG"

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genesys9
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Re: Your mistake
In reply to dgrogers, 5 months ago

dgrogers, It was a mistake on my part to mention it as Ken Rockwell, it is NOT Ken Rockwell but just Ken.

I again apologize for the confusion.

dgrogers wrote:

As soon as you saw anything related to Ken Rockwell, you should have known to stay away. His photography skills are amateur at best anyway.

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Completely infatuated with the "OMG"

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Ulric
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Re: Then there is my steampunk approach
In reply to Michael Meissner, 5 months ago

You should put a camera in a cuckoo clock.

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Midwest
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Re: it's a Navajo park; access is controlled as in many other parks
In reply to Wu Jiaqiu, 5 months ago

Wu Jiaqiu wrote:

gregbartgis wrote:

I do understand what you are getting at, though I still feel that the Navajo Nation probably has no right to deprive a US citizen of his/her constitutional rights.

ironic post of the month?

As a beatnik might have once said to greg: "Man, dig yourself."

It's all too easy to assume that what we 'feel' is sufficient to justify our position. What comes to mind is that song: "Feelings, nothing more than feelings...."

Feelings and two nickels will get you a dime.

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amtberg
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Re: RTFM - medium or large format!
In reply to arbuz, 5 months ago

arbuz wrote:

neil holmes wrote:

PC Wheeler wrote:

Well, I just looked up the tour details http://www.lowerantelope.com/aboutTheTour.php and it says

"Photographer's pass is 2 hours in duration. One photo pass for each individual with the required equipment. You can purchase the pass at the booth. The REQUIRED equipment are a SLR camera, medium or large format WITH a tripod. No guide is provided for the photographer, but a Canyon Monitor will check on you periodically for questions or assistant.

Things to bring:

• SLR camera (medium or large format) required
• Extra film or memory cards.
• Batteries
• Tripod required
• Plastic bag (for windy days to protect camera or lens)"

Seems a bit stupid, but an m4/3 is not an SLR (bolding is theirs, not mine).

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Phil

So just take a tripod and any old DSLR (smaller the better....old Pentax APSC fit the bill or better still a film SLR like a Spotmatic) AND your other camera.

How did you get 7 supporting votes for you ignorant post?

Do you know what medium or large format is? it is not APS-C and it is not 35mm. it's bigger.

You should actually take a minute to read the original post before you climb on your high smart a$$ horse. The tour requirement was for medium or large CAMERA -- not medium or large FORMAT. Apparently their purpose was to limit the tour to "serious" photographers who they assumed would be using DSLRs.

Edit: if you go to the Ken Tour website they actually specify "SLR (medium or large format)".  I think they mean APS-C or full frame rather than medium or large format film/sensor size, since AFAIK there's actually no such thing as a large format SLR.  Also they would be limiting their audience to a very small group indeed.

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gregbartgis
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Re: it's a Navajo park; access is controlled as in many other parks
In reply to Wu Jiaqiu, 5 months ago

Revenge trumps justice or fairness?

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The elimination of the mirror has introduced a new concept into the interchangeable lens digital camera market - compactness (kind of like what happened when Oscar Barnack created the Leica).

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Midwest
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Re: Your mistake
In reply to dgrogers, 5 months ago

dgrogers wrote:

As soon as you saw anything related to Ken Rockwell, you should have known to stay away. His photography skills are amateur at best anyway.

If he was a registered user here at dpreview, I wonder if HE would have something in HIS gallery.

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dougjgreen1
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Buy a used film SLR like a Nikon EM - for about $10 nowadays
In reply to genesys9, 5 months ago

And toss it in your bag with your mirrorless digital gear.   I recommend a Nikon EM, as it is EXTREMELY small and light, and can be bought for the cost of postage on ebay.   Plus it has that magical Nikon name that the guides undoubtedly respect more than any pro-level Mirrorless gear.

Of course, you're never going to USE this camera, it just gets you in to the tour.  You're actually going to shoot with your modern digital mirrorless gear.  But you meet the requirements of the permit by having an SLR.

You might actually need to buy a roll of film - assuming you don't have any expired ones lying around.  I think Walmart still sells the stuff cheap.

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Midwest
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Re: it's a Navajo park; access is controlled as in many other parks
In reply to gregbartgis, 5 months ago

gregbartgis wrote:

Revenge trumps justice or fairness?

It's their nation, and our Constitutional rights are not portable with us wherever we go. Get yourself arrested in Mexico or Cuba (for, say, exercising your 'Constitutional right' to take photographs of what you please) and see how much they care about our Constitution.

We gave the Native Americans a very small sliver of what was once their continent and the very least we can do is give them the right to govern THAT.

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Midwest
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Re: Before you get your panties in a bunch. . .
In reply to Glen Barrington, 5 months ago

Glen Barrington wrote:

MatsP wrote:

Wow! I'm glad I live in a country where everybody as the general rule has the right to access all land, private or not. Restrictions about what camera to use sounds just absurd to me. Especially when they obviously don't have a clue of what they are talking about. Anyway, I've never heard of such a thing visiting nature formations. Welcome to my country! Lots of beautiful sights, free access, and nobody gives a damn about your camera!

Yeah, well if the US government 'shuts down' they will keep you from stopping and even LOOKING at some of those sights - a first in our history, and pretty recently too. (No money in the budget to let you pull over and look at Mt. Rushmore, but somehow money to put park personnel there to make you keep moving along.)

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dougjgreen1
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My recommendations:
In reply to neil holmes, 5 months ago

neil holmes wrote:

PC Wheeler wrote:

Well, I just looked up the tour details http://www.lowerantelope.com/aboutTheTour.php and it says

"Photographer's pass is 2 hours in duration. One photo pass for each individual with the required equipment. You can purchase the pass at the booth. The REQUIRED equipment are a SLR camera, medium or large format WITH a tripod. No guide is provided for the photographer, but a Canyon Monitor will check on you periodically for questions or assistant.

Things to bring:

• SLR camera (medium or large format) required
• Extra film or memory cards.
• Batteries
• Tripod required
• Plastic bag (for windy days to protect camera or lens)"

Seems a bit stupid, but an m4/3 is not an SLR (bolding is theirs, not mine).

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Phil

So just take a tripod and any old DSLR (smaller the better....old Pentax APSC fit the bill or better still a film SLR like a Spotmatic) AND your other camera.

Nikon EM,   Pentax ME,  Konica TC,  and Olympus OM-G

These are the smallest, lightest film SLRs ever made, and any of them can be bought on ebay for $10 or so nowadays.   You're of course, not going to actually USE this camera, but it gets you your permit.  You're going to actually shoot with your modern, mirrorless gear.

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misolo
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Re: Even more absurd...
In reply to cainn24, 5 months ago

Lab D wrote:

cainn24 wrote:

gregbartgis wrote:

They can't tell you not to take a picture because they don't like your gear - unless,of course, you are throwing your discarded polaroid wrappers in the river!

As detailed by Gordon Laing, you can go on a guided tour with any camera you like. You just can't get a permit to go on a "self-guided" tour without a DSLR. It's still a wholly absurd restriction and betrays a disturbing lack of knowledge about the caliber of modern mirrorless camera gear, but the point is that they're not actually flatly denying anyone access.

As other have said you could pick up a use E-420, broken E-1, or even a Canon AE-1 on ebay, and bring it along for access. Simple carry your mirrorless camera in you bag and have the old film SLR hanging from you neck for looks.

How about a 0.85mp fixed-lens Olympus C-1000L?

It really does have a mirror!

Nice camera, you can store all of 20 photos! On the downside, better hurry up and get some use out of it, its calendar only runs until 2016.

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dougjgreen1
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Sorry, not gonna work - no mirror -nt
In reply to Michael Meissner, 5 months ago

Michael Meissner wrote:

Now, I realize this would probably only make things worse, but hey, what the heck.

Since 2010, I have been on a mission to disguise my cameras. Usually I use a 1930's press photographer's bellows camera as my inspiration. After starting down this path, I discovered the design ethic steampunk (or if you want to be pedantic, dieselpunk, but nobody out here uses that term), but in 2010, I was unaware of steampunk and I just wanted to do something cool

I first tried 4x6 cameras, but the E-P2 is just too large to fit. So I moved up to the harder to find 5x7 large format cameras (at least harder to find in my price range). When I got it, I found that the 14-42mm is the only lens I own that fits in the Pony Premo without modification. I could not use the normal RM-UC1 to fire the camera without drilling a hole in the Pony Premo, so I adapted a mechanic cable release to use on the camera. One of the design issues, are these cameras have the lens in the middle, but most digital cameras have the lens on one side.

I moved to creating custom shells to house the E-3/E-5/E-M5 so I could do outdoor events without worrying about rain. The Pony Premo is now starting to show wear, so I only bring it out for limited viewings now.

Here are some pictures:

Front view of E-P2 inside of Kodak Pony Premo

Close up of E-P2 inside of Kodak Pony Premo

Kodak Pony Premo with back closed

Picture of me with my original steampunk camera and my squirrel mascot

Retro camera shoots a renaissance faire

Mechanical shutter release on E-P2

As I said, I have moved away to making/adapting shells for the steampunk camera, here are some pictures:

E-PM2 inside wooden cigar box, front view

E-PM2 inside wooden cigar box, back view

E-PM2 inside wooden cigar box, side view

Olympus TG-2 'suitcase' camera

Olympus TG-2 'suitcase' camera.

Olympus E-5 pumpkin camera

E-P2 in Kodak Pony Premo (left), E-5 steampunk camera (center), VG-120 steampunk camera (right)

Back view o a trio of steampunk cameras

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Mike Dobbs
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If m43 Cameras are outlawed...then only Outlaws will have m43 Cameras! (nt)
In reply to dougjgreen1, 5 months ago

(nt)

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Reach me on the World's best messenging system, BlackBerry Messenger PIN:24BDF528 (http://www.bbm.com/bbm/en.html)
Now available for Android & iPhones as well.

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Eamon Hickey
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tour company would be perfectly happy
In reply to Lab D, 5 months ago

Lab D wrote:

As other have said you could pick up a use E-420, broken E-1, or even a film Canon AE-1 on ebay, and bring it along for access. Simple carry your mirrorless camera in your bag and have the old film SLR hanging from you neck for looks.

Yeah, but I don't think the tour company would view this as a failure. They are simply trying to create an easy rule for limiting the special extended tours to people who are really serious about photography. It's a triage mechanism to keep casual snapshooters from taking up the limited number of slots available for self-guided 2-hour tours. (In that sense, photographers should maybe be applauding this company. In how many realms are there special rules in our favor?)

So anyway, if you're willing to buy a whole separate camera just to get a permit, you're definitely serious about your photography. The tour company's mechanism worked perfectly!

Whether they should be in the business of deciding who is serious enough to deserve a 2-hour slot is another question (I'm of two minds). But if they are going to do it, they should switch their criteria to a camera with interchangeable lens, along with the existing requirement for a tripod. That would do the job just as well, I think, without the logical holes. And it would be just as easy to train company employees about and for them to implement in practice.

That last point is obviously the main driver here -- whatever mechanism they use has to be easy for employees who are not photo nuts, and who are dealing with hundreds, maybe thousands, of customers every day to implement.

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cainn24
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Re: tour company would be perfectly happy
In reply to Eamon Hickey, 5 months ago

Eamon Hickey wrote:

Whether they should be in the business of deciding who is serious enough to deserve a 2-hour slot is another question (I'm of two minds). But if they are going to do it, they should switch their criteria to a camera with interchangeable lens, along with the existing requirement for a tripod. That would do the job just as well, I think, without the logical holes. And it would be just as easy to train company employees about and for them to implement in practice.

Of course these days there are quite a few fixed-lens enthusiast cameras with large sensors that can produce better output than many ILCs, and such cameras are very likely to be owned and used by experienced and discerning photographers. So it doesn't solve the problem entirely.

The situation would  be somewhat improved however.

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