m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
jackkurtz
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Re: So
In reply to neil holmes, 8 months ago

Or an Oly 4:3 SLR.

It is a stupid rule.

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wootpile
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LOL They don't allow any digital cameras at all. Boycott!
In reply to genesys9, 8 months ago

You can be sure the requirement details stem from a time now gone. Not the staff's fault, but seriously lazy management who doesn't care.. or more probably hasn't got a clue about photography.

If you look closely at their requirements it says:

in one instance: slr, medium or large format - so any of the three is ok

in another instance it says slr(medium or large format) - meaning all slr's that are BELOW medium format are not eligible. this is without a doubt a typo, and one that the staff think is law.

With their current mindset - you can't participate with a fullframe 36 megapixel Sony 7r --- because it's a mirrorless camera - not a SLR

Oh WAIT!!! according to the http://www.lowerantelope.com/aboutTheTour.php you are not allowed entry with ANY DIGITAL CAMERA AT ALL. It clearly says SLR..

If you traveled +2000 miles to participate and was denied entry based on poor staff education.. I would send them a invoice for travel expenses.

Bottom line - they are idiots and haven't got a clue what they are doing and their customer service thereby sucks.

Boycott them until they start wondering why everyone stopped coming.

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cainn24
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to lapdog99, 8 months ago

Gordon Laing, of cameralabs.com

https://plus.google.com/+GordonLaing/posts/GqyBRd8DPSA

But as he points out, there were other options for the OP.

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ahrensjt
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to genesys9, 8 months ago

Hi all,

I read genesys' original post, and really felt sorry for him and his experience there.  I would have been incredibly frustrated.  Since my wife and I have an E-M5 and a G5, I also was a bit bothered - that seems like a tour we would like to join!

So I found "Ken's" tours on the Web, and sent them an email, wanting to get a formal response as to "why?".  I pasted the exchange below.

Summary:  I received a very rapid response (well done Emily), but it was clear that Emily did NOT understand the issue regarding the equipment restriction as currently defined.  It is possible that one could print out Emily's second email to show the tour gestapo -- an "official" statement that m43 cameras are in fact allowed with a tripod.  But this was inconsistent with her first email, so I'm not sure I would bet travel expenses on it.  All in all, a disappointing result.

The email exchange:

Apr 3, 2014, at 12:13 AM

Hello Ken’s Tour,
 I am planning a holiday, and want to make sure of something before I make tour reservations.

I read (link below) that someone with a professional-level mirrorless camera was denied access to the Photography tour.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3649770
 Is this still your policy?  I have a similar pro-level mirrorless camera, and want to make sure (i.e., in writing) whether I would be able to join that tour.
 Thanks,
Jeffrey

-- hide signature --

Von: Emily Young [mailto:keny@aztrail.com]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 3. April 2014 09:32
An: Jeffrey
Betreff: Re: Lower Antelope Canyon - Photography question
 Hi Jeffrey
 You need a Tripod and DSLR or film SLR, middle format or large format for the 2hrs pass and the fees is $50 per person. You can still take your take your Professional-level mirrorless camera with the
1hrs Tour group if you don't have a tripod and the fees is $26 per person. You'll still take Photo along the way with the group Tour. You don't need a reservation for the Tour, just show anytime when you come and sign in at the Booth.
 Thanks Again
Ken's Tour

----------

Apr 3, 2014, at 12:40 AM

Hi Emily,
 I appreciate the fast response!
 The photography forum at DPreview.com was wondering why a modern mirrorless, interchangeable lens camera with tripod (such as my Olympus E-M5) would be rejected, even though entry-level DSLRs and older film SLRs would be acceptable – even though models like the Olympus have equivalent or better dynamic range and image quality.
 Can you shed some light on this?
 If I had to guess, I’d bet you had customers in the past that complained “why didn’t my photos turn out?!?”, when they were using a camera (or techniques) that simply could not cope with the challenging conditions.  Therefore you implemented the restrictions.  Is that a good guess?
 If so, might I recommend that you update the “approved cameras” restriction, to include some of the modern professional mirrorless cameras (Leica, Olympus, Panasonic, Fuji, Sony).

As of today, I unfortunately would not be able to take the tour.
 Thank you for considering the policy change.
 Regards,
Jeffrey

----------

Von: Emily Young [mailto:keny@aztrail.com]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 3. April 2014 09:53
An: Jeffrey
Betreff: Re: Lower Antelope Canyon - Photography question

Hi Jeffrey

As long as you've a Tripod for your Camera you can ask for the 2hrs Photo Pass, that all we said.

Thanks Again
Ken's Tour

----------

Thanks Emily.

It looks like a great tour, and I just wanted you to be aware of the negative publicity being generated by the camera restriction.

My forum friend had a tripod, but was still rejected, so it appears that there is some inconsistency between what you wrote and what is being enforced.

Another photography pro mentioned it here, and he has close to 1 million followers.
https://plus.google.com/+GordonLaing/posts/GqyBRd8DPSA#+GordonLaing/posts/GqyBRd8DPSA

Anyway, I won’t bother you with emails any more.

Cheers,
Jeffrey

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Franka T.L.
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What ... !!
In reply to genesys9, 8 months ago

That 's perhaps one of those more ridiculous one I've seen or heard for some time. I can understand the restriction of equipment if its a technical workshop or course outing ( or even just plain tour ) but on a photo tour ... those guys are truly ... well ... how should I put it ... I wonder what it would be like if people wanting to use their Ricoh GR or might be even their film cameras ( how about a good old leica screw standard )

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fishywisht
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to genesys9, 8 months ago

I seriously doubt it's a prescription expressing Ken's preferences. It's as much for the benefit of the experience of the guests on the tour as anything. There are bound to be a lot of camera nerds there and the sensitive could come away humiliated for only having an iphone or a bridge camera and the snobs looking down on them.

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agentul
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to ahrensjt, 8 months ago

i wonder what would have happened if you asked for the minimum technical specifications the photo equipment must meet in order to be approved (and "Large format SLR" does not qualify as technical specification any more than "4 door car" qualifies for a WRC entry). also, what kinds of tripods are acceptable. after all, you can bring a film camera, load it with unsuitable film and do a worse job than with a smartphone. but i'm sure ther heads would asplode at this type of inquiry. after all, "bring big pro camera and tripod" seems to be all they can articulate.

a good example on how not to do business.

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SkiHound
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I guess size really does matter.
In reply to genesys9, 8 months ago

Seems very biased. On the flip side, I've put a body cap on my ungripped E-M5 and been able to get into venues that don't allow "professional cameras." I've had a PL25 or Oly 45 in a pocket. 5-axis IBIS and a f/1.4 lens can be a pretty decent "non-professional" set up.

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Glen Barrington
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Well, in the end . . .
In reply to genesys9, 8 months ago

genesys9 wrote:

I just returned from antelope canyon trip and as I made my way towards lower antelope canyon. The booking office rep at Ken Rockwell informed me that I cannot take the photography tour since my camera isn't medium or large size.

That was one of the most technologically challenged statements I have ever heard. Even though I had two supporters helping me discuss and at times argue over the point, it did not cut ice.

Having traveled 2k+ miles I was quite disappointed but there will be another day. I was carrying E-PL5 with Tripod and a rain sleeve.

It is a business enterprise, and they are free to set the rules by which they want to run their business.  I'm willing to bet, however, that if you look around, there are alternatives that DO cater to your needs.

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Chris R-UK
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Read this link
In reply to genesys9, 8 months ago

This link has already been posted by cainn24 and it explains things quite well:

https://plus.google.com/+GordonLaing/posts/GqyBRd8DPSA

They are clearly just looking for a simple rule to separate the "serious" photographers from "non-serious" and there are alternative ways of getting into the Canyon.

The problem is that their rule is very out of date, although I suppose that bringing a tripod is a fairly good separator.  Not many camera phone users carry a tripod.

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Chris R

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ahrensjt
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to agentul, 8 months ago

I just remembered a trip experience I had:  an old salt mine in Germany was re-purposed as an "experience" site.  500m below ground is a cavern in the mine, in which they now hold concerts!

I got my wife and I tickets to see Supertramp's Roger Hodgson.  They did a bag check, and forced people to put "professional" cameras in lockers.  Any DSLR was identified and the bag was checked.

I had an Olympus E-PL5 at the time, and I convinced them that this was "just a cheap thing".  They let me through.

What an irony huh? The canyon tour wants ONLY "pro" cameras, and this concert only allowed "non-pro" cameras.

Cheers,

Jeff

(photo of the concert "hall")

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agentul
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to ahrensjt, 8 months ago

i like how equipment is judged to be professional or amateur by people that have no clue in the first place.

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Sulis2
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Nothing to do with Ken Rockwell!
In reply to genesys9, 8 months ago

genesys9 wrote:

I just returned from antelope canyon trip and as I made my way towards lower antelope canyon. The booking office rep at Ken Rockwell informed me that I cannot take the photography tour since my camera isn't medium or large size.

That was one of the most technologically challenged statements I have ever heard. Even though I had two supporters helping me discuss and at times argue over the point, it did not cut ice.

Having traveled 2k+ miles I was quite disappointed but there will be another day. I was carrying E-PL5 with Tripod and a rain sleeve.

I'm sure it's a slip of the keyboard, but the people who run this tour are called Ken's Tours. As far as I can see they have nothing to do with Ken Rockwell (the guy's email is keny@etc.).

I know Ken Rockwell is a polarising figure in the photography world (I quite like him), but the OP should really correct their first post as it paints KR in an unfair light.

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arbuz
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RTFM - medium or large format!
In reply to neil holmes, 8 months ago

neil holmes wrote:

PC Wheeler wrote:

Well, I just looked up the tour details http://www.lowerantelope.com/aboutTheTour.php and it says

"Photographer's pass is 2 hours in duration. One photo pass for each individual with the required equipment. You can purchase the pass at the booth. The REQUIRED equipment are a SLR camera, medium or large format WITH a tripod. No guide is provided for the photographer, but a Canyon Monitor will check on you periodically for questions or assistant.

Things to bring:

• SLR camera (medium or large format) required
• Extra film or memory cards.
• Batteries
• Tripod required
• Plastic bag (for windy days to protect camera or lens)"

Seems a bit stupid, but an m4/3 is not an SLR (bolding is theirs, not mine).

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Phil

So just take a tripod and any old DSLR (smaller the better....old Pentax APSC fit the bill or better still a film SLR like a Spotmatic) AND your other camera.

How did you get 7 supporting votes for you ignorant post?

Do you know what medium or large format is? it is not APS-C and it is not 35mm. it's bigger.

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XPro10
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to genesys9, 8 months ago

There are many slot canyons in southern Utah that have not been photographed to death. And require no permit or guide. Google; Little Wild Horse and Bell Canyons. Peek-A-Boo, Spooky and Brimstone Gulches.

Antelope Canyon and nearby "the Wave" have become cliche if you ask me. How many more millions of shots does the world need of these?

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Chris R-UK
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Re: Nothing to do with Ken Rockwell!
In reply to Sulis2, 8 months ago

Sulis2 wrote:

genesys9 wrote:

I just returned from antelope canyon trip and as I made my way towards lower antelope canyon. The booking office rep at Ken Rockwell informed me that I cannot take the photography tour since my camera isn't medium or large size.

That was one of the most technologically challenged statements I have ever heard. Even though I had two supporters helping me discuss and at times argue over the point, it did not cut ice.

Having traveled 2k+ miles I was quite disappointed but there will be another day. I was carrying E-PL5 with Tripod and a rain sleeve.

I'm sure it's a slip of the keyboard, but the people who run this tour are called Ken's Tours. As far as I can see they have nothing to do with Ken Rockwell (the guy's email is keny@etc.).

I know Ken Rockwell is a polarising figure in the photography world (I quite like him), but the OP should really correct their first post as it paints KR in an unfair light.

The OP has already corrected his error on one of his later posts on this thread.

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Chris R

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arbuz
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to amtberg, 8 months ago

amtberg wrote:

So I could take my antique 8 MP 20D but not my very modern 16 MP GH3 which has much better image quality, far superior high ISO performance, and vastly better AF (and MF). How incredibly ignorant.

Yes, sure, since your antique 20D is a medium or large format camera. "How incredibly ignorant"

I think this topic illustrates the reason for that requirement. The workshop is for the people that have some basic of photography and did not just migrate from iphone. If you and all the others responding to the thread do not know what is medium or large format camera then it's not even worth going the route of explaining how different is the process taking pictures with you "very modern" point and shot Gh3 vs medium format camera.

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ludwik123
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to genesys9, 8 months ago

I can see their point of having a minimum camera Equipment standard for a photo tour.

The problem is in the detail of what is a serious photographer with proper equipment.

This is a matter of opinion and I have no clear answer.  But if I was a m4/3 owner with a tripod and a bag full of  lenses and I got turned away.  I would also be very offended.

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MatsP
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to genesys9, 8 months ago

Wow! I'm glad I live in a country where everybody as the general rule has the right to access all land, private or not. Restrictions about what camera to use sounds just absurd to me. Especially when they obviously don't have a clue of what they are talking about. Anyway, I've never heard of such a thing visiting nature formations. Welcome to my country! Lots of beautiful sights, free access, and nobody gives a damn about your camera!

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agentul
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Re: m4/3 not allowed on Lower Antelope Canyon photo tour
In reply to arbuz, 8 months ago

arbuz wrote:

amtberg wrote:

So I could take my antique 8 MP 20D but not my very modern 16 MP GH3 which has much better image quality, far superior high ISO performance, and vastly better AF (and MF). How incredibly ignorant.

Yes, sure, since your antique 20D is a medium or large format camera. "How incredibly ignorant"

I think this topic illustrates the reason for that requirement. The workshop is for the people that have some basic of photography and did not just migrate from iphone.

also, this topic is for people with basic life experience and reading comprehension skills, who did not just come out of a dark room. the staff at the location clearly equate "large camera = pro, small camera = amateur", and don't go into technical details.

If you and all the others responding to the thread do not know what is medium or large format camera then it's not even worth going the route of explaining how different is the process taking pictures with you "very modern" point and shot Gh3 vs medium format camera.

most ironic that you don't know the difference between P&S and m4/3. also, all cameras are point and shoot, unless you have some highly automated camera on a motorized tripod that can point itself and take pictures autonomously.

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