Nikon 105 for butterfly collection

Started 5 months ago | Questions
TQGroup
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Re: butterfly collection & R1C1 macro twin flash
In reply to Peter Damroth, 5 months ago

Peter, the D600 has high speed synch capabilities that can be set up in the camera's menu. In effect, the flash fires a series of very short "partial" bursts to effect correct exposure and this technique can be very valuable over very short distances.

I apologise for not being able to get into my camera's menu at present and giving you the exact setting details; ... my D600 is being "re-shuttered" at Nikon Sydney for another week or two.

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Re: Like that diffuser
In reply to Peter Damroth, 5 months ago

I do not want to plug a certain "reluctant millionaire", he's plenty good enough at self-promotion, but I find his collapsible light sphere very effective, convenient and portable... and not just for macro photography.

A few weeks ago, together with another friend we shot a large wedding in Melbourne for mutual friends. I had planned to use 4 x D910's on light stands with PW's for optimum lighting across the room. When we saw the size of the ballroom, we quickly realised we needed at least 8 and we didn't bring that many with us. So, we both had these lightspheres and the results we achieved with them on our D910's directly mounted on a D800 (his) / D600 (mine) using 24-70 F2.8 lenses were absolutely outstanding!

Another friend who's doing a lot of environmental portraiture also swears by the same manufacturer's "snoot"...

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Re: Like that diffuser
In reply to Peter Damroth, 5 months ago

Yes, absolutely Dave... this Insect Assassin was "in effect" backlit by the filtered but strong sun through cloud and the lightsphere-modified flash was acting as a balancing fill-in flash, I guess

Just as well I didn't have time to think about all that before taking this quick shot...:-D

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Re: Nikon APS-C for more DOF
In reply to dave gaines, 5 months ago

Thanks again for your thoughts. The issue of required DOF is still to be resolved. There are now 3 possible approaches (vide earlier post today re Museum's approach); 1. very high quality specimen photography with a unique identifier number, 2. high quality specimen photography with actual data card/s next to specimen and in focus, or 3. lower "cataloging" quality photos of specimens with data card/s in focus plus some very high specimen photos.

While I personally prefer approach "1", the data entry requirements of the vital capture data make options "2" and "3" very attractive to the owners of the collection.

Based on what I learned yesterday, I now plan to contact the relevant Museums in SE Asia to determine if they had a digitizing / cataloging system that we should "plug" into.

Morals of this developing story... (1) its the photographer who is responsible for putting the smile on everyone's face and (2) the customer/s usually do not know what they really want but they do know when they are satisfied/happy/delighted afterwards!

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Re: Nikon 105 for butterfly collection
In reply to Photofunster, 5 months ago

Many thanks for your interest and moral support... and for the link to some magnificent pictures!

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Re: f22 massively in diffraction territory! Don't go over f11
In reply to antoineb, 5 months ago

Thank you for a very detailed analysis and I totally concur with your conclusions on diffraction. As posted earlier, there has been a "curve ball" thrown our way and we have deal with it. After the final layout is re-considered by the collection owners, I will have to decide between any trade-offs of loss of IQ due to DOF or IQ.

As to your other contention, there I have to disagree with you... strongly!! I am not good, just kinda insane!

Regarding the lightbox, that is an interesting proposition. In my experience, lightboxes are of particular value when a generally "shadow-free" result is desired. With butterflies, the texture, sheen, reflectance contrast, colour and depth, amongst other parameters are important, maybe not so much from a straight cataloging job but certainly from a quality reproduction perspective. That is why photographing these little critters can be quite a fun challenge!

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Re: Nikon 105 for butterfly collection
In reply to PHXAZCRAIG, 5 months ago

Wow! So many great ideas and concepts...

Fortunately, time is on my side and I will consider them all. I have arranged to get some specimens to experiment on and I am getting a sudden overwhelming feeling of acute GAS!

Over the next few weeks, I'll gladly report back some findings from my "research" but only after I am sure of a final "job specification" that is evolving as the collection owners and I wrestle with all the possibilities.

In the end, I hope to produce great photos as that is my prime interest. However, from a scientific and long-term value POV, the greater priority may well be to produce something that is easier to catalogue and better still, integrate into an existing or planned cataloging system in the area.

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StillLearning
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Re: butterfly collection & R1C1 macro twin flash
In reply to TQGroup, 5 months ago

TQGroup wrote:

Peter, the D600 has high speed synch capabilities that can be set up in the camera's menu. In effect, the flash fires a series of very short "partial" bursts to effect correct exposure and this technique can be very valuable over very short distances.

I apologise for not being able to get into my camera's menu at present and giving you the exact setting details; ... my D600 is being "re-shuttered" at Nikon Sydney for another week or two.

On my D7100  it is e1  flash sync  1/250  (Auto FP)

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labalaba
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Re: Nikon APS-C for more DOF
In reply to TQGroup, 5 months ago

TQGroup wrote:

Thanks again for your thoughts. The issue of required DOF is still to be resolved. There are now 3 possible approaches (vide earlier post today re Museum's approach); 1. very high quality specimen photography with a unique identifier number, 2. high quality specimen photography with actual data card/s next to specimen and in focus, or 3. lower "cataloging" quality photos of specimens with data card/s in focus plus some very high specimen photos.

While I personally prefer approach "1", the data entry requirements of the vital capture data make options "2" and "3" very attractive to the owners of the collection.

Based on what I learned yesterday, I now plan to contact the relevant Museums in SE Asia to determine if they had a digitizing / cataloging system that we should "plug" into.

Morals of this developing story... (1) its the photographer who is responsible for putting the smile on everyone's face and (2) the customer/s usually do not know what they really want but they do know when they are satisfied/happy/delighted afterwards!

To get the data label in focus along with the specimen I think you will need some kind of stand or support that places the data label in exactly the same plane as the specimen.  Perhaps this is a prep job for your 'assistants'.  Either that or use a small sensor camera.  I don't think Fx>Dx will do it.

I did suspect already that the only reliable way to associate 10,000 pieces of data with specimens is to photograph them together.

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TQGroup
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Re: Nikon APS-C for more DOF
In reply to labalaba, 5 months ago

Thanks for the suggestion... I'll have a chat to my assistants... I, myself and me. Seriously, I expect to have competent assistance.

The method of associating the specimen with its picture and its data will probably be decided on the "best way" to input specimen capture data into a current or future "scientific" database most applicable to the area of capture and that is unlikely to be the Australian database.

Photographing specimens with a simple unique identifier, eg number on a sticker that can be replaced in the display case with the specimen is simpler and hence much faster than "mucking about" with labels and tags of different sizes, shapes and even multiples per specimen. And this is still likely to be our preferred method of image capture as the data entry can be done at leisure by other cost-effective means.

However, if someone already has a cataloging process in place for the region, we would be crazy to ignore it and to try to integrate with it. Once again, thank you for sharing your thoughts!

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Photofunster
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Re: Nikon 105 for butterfly collection
In reply to TQGroup, 5 months ago

TQGroup wrote:

Many thanks for your interest and moral support... and for the link to some magnificent pictures!

Yes, some of those were pretty amazing macro photos. I hope they don't distract you from your own goals with these delicate subjects. This should be plenty of hard work, with much joy. The rewards in the end will be the pictures you produce.

Thanks for the opportunity to view yours.

Chas

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Antal I Kozma
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Re: Nikon 105 for butterfly collection
In reply to ormdig, 5 months ago

ormdig wrote:

Hi Antal, you said "If you light evenly you'll lose detail in the texture of your subject. Which in case of photographing butterflies is not a good thing. The fine structure of wing pattern and hair on the torso does not come through well. So balance two lights , let's say left and right, in a ratio so that one will be the dominant side light for texture while the other will assure that no distracting shadow will form on the less lit side."

Can you expound a little bit on the balancing "in a ratio" of the two lights? Do you do this in intensity, angle (height) or what?

I understand the importance of sidelight for texture and would like to experiment with your suggestions offered here but don't understand the idea behind the "ratio" part and would like to have some idea of what I am doing and why. Thank you,

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Pete

Hi Pete,

Dave answered your question precisely as of technical terms. Beyond that it is experimental and depending on taste and the structure of the particular subject we photograph. No what the hell is this, right?

In my personal experience fine textures like various types or fabric, or butterfly wing scales in this case, show up best in side lighting. Especially in close ups / macro where fine detail, or the lack of it, can be observed to a high degree.  As you mentioned you are familiar with the texture enhancing properties of side lighting. And that is exactly the key here.

Would we photograph a flat object for a catalogue, like the pattern of a towel for a bath magazine, we could get away with a single light source illuminating the object from one side at let's say 4o-45 degrees elevation angle. No harsh shadow would be produced on the opposite side since we are shooting a flat object or even just a portion of it that does not cast a disturbing shadow.

Now, if we photograph a butterfly that is elevated let's say 1 1/4" from the base of its display case by a pin then we would cast a distinct shadow on the opposite side of the light source. Therefore, we need to alter our lighting by some means to avoid creating a harsh shadow while still retaining the texture enhancing capacity of our main light source.

If I shoot in a 45 degree elevation with one side light then the shadow I project onto the opposite side is going to be formed around the straight extension of the centre of my light beam. Then that shadow will "float out" on the base surface. If you draw a circle and divide it into eight equal segments you'll see what I mean.

So, what tools do we have to avoid this? Several, we can mix those as our creativity and desired effect will call for it. For example, I could start out softening my main light a little so that it is still intense enough to sidelight the scales of the wind and hair on the torso but it is not going to be as "piercing" in its quality. Then, I probably would lower my main light a bit. Let's say to 40 degrees instead of 45. This would skim the surface a bit more while the shadow on the opposite side would mow away to the left a bit. By experimenting with softening the skimming light and lowering it a bit may cast our shadow well to the left so that in a close up it might largely falls out of view.

Then we also can play with another light illuminating from the opposite side. Let's say we dial down the intensity of this fill light to 1/3rd of the main light. So that it will not nullify the side lighting properties of our main light but will dissolve our shadow to a non disturbing level. Furthermore we can lower the angle of the fill light so that it "skims the shadow" from a lower angle. Thus it does not bounce back to the right to cancel out the side lighting property of the main light source. Kind of shooting a bit under the belly of the butterfly perched on the pin.

In lieu of the second light we can introduce a reflector card to soften the shadow. Its reflective property, angle of placement, distance to the subject changes its effect. Wee need to experiment with it to get the desired effect we shall need.

I do not know if I have been clear enough with my explanation of the subject. Basically it is simple to work out these things with two flashes that you can adjust in intensity or even with a single flash and some light bouncers made from white cardboard or crumpled alu-foil.

With digital we have the blessing of instantaneous result on the screen. Unlike in film days when you either shot a bunch of Polaroids, still smallish, or awaited on your trial roll to be rush processed and evaluated. Today we can look at the results on a tethered laptop and change immediately to get the result we want. That is a major advantage for the photographer these days. Back in film days it required years of experience to set up and shoot for an assignment with piece of mind without feeling your tummy playing jello.

The key is, experimenting with angles, light intensity , light ratios, fill cards, etc.

All the best, AIK

P.S.: Ring lights have their place so do the two flash unit macro lights. However, they are more for chasing bugs in nature as opposed to cataloguing with some artistic quality in mind. Also, for straight documentation for insurance purposes they are just fine. We do not need to be artistically concerned for that kind of photography.

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TQGroup
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Re: Nikon 105 for butterfly collection
In reply to Antal I Kozma, 5 months ago

Hi Antal

Thank you very much for such a clear and comprehensive explanation! Clearly you have the benefit of a lot of experience behind you.

One question for you, if I may... can you suggest an "optimum" colour and material as a background to the butterflies.

Currently I envisage using a sizable pad of dense rubber into which to stick the pinned butterfly for each individual portrait and I want to cover this with a suitable cloth. I'm thinking about velvet for its non-reflective properties...

And what about colour? An 18% neutral grey? I don't know yet if there is an "industry" standard so I'm open to your thoughts. Cheers Andrew

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Re: Nikon 105 for butterfly collection
In reply to Photofunster, 5 months ago

And thank you very much for share. We are all getting a bit excited about all this but, fortunately, not quite to the "butterflies in the stomach" stage!

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Antal I Kozma
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Re: Nikon 105 for butterfly collection
In reply to TQGroup, 5 months ago

TQGroup wrote:

Hi Antal

Thank you very much for such a clear and comprehensive explanation! Clearly you have the benefit of a lot of experience behind you.

One question for you, if I may... can you suggest an "optimum" colour and material as a background to the butterflies.

Currently I envisage using a sizable pad of dense rubber into which to stick the pinned butterfly for each individual portrait and I want to cover this with a suitable cloth. I'm thinking about velvet for its non-reflective properties...

And what about colour? An 18% neutral grey? I don't know yet if there is an "industry" standard so I'm open to your thoughts. Cheers Andrew

Hi Andrew,

Honestly, I was not giving any thoughts to background colour since the butterflies likely will vary quite a bit in colour and pattern. Your idea with the dense rubber as base is good. I used a cork pad for small objects that were elevated by a supporting pin. Either way the same idea.

Giving some thought to background I probably would use something other than neutral grey. My reasoning is that although neutral grey is a good choice for for not obtrusive background it may not suit butterflies as the subject since we hardly ever see a butterfly against grey in nature.

I've looked through a bunch of images to get a feel for background. About 80% of my butterfly images were against various shades of blurred green and the rest of against some shade of tan, like when they were collecting minerals from wet sand.

So, if I were to the task I probably would experiment with a darker shade of somewhat desaturated green or some sand imitation. Wet sand is kind of greyish beige. Hence your thoughts of natural grey is actually not far off the possibilities.

Blue Spotted Purple, Black Swallowtail and Kramers can often be seen sucking minerals of wet sand. I could see any other colours being photographed against a background like that.

Anyway, velvet is a good idea regardless of what colour you may end up using. Just a thought; if I would end up with sand as my choice of background I would use a tray with an inch of wet sand in it and that would even hold my pins without cork under the sand.

If you will use rubber or cork then have a pair of needle nose pliers with you to seat the pin into the base, since you cannot push from above. You need to grab the pin under the body to drive it into the base.

Best regards, AIK

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labalaba
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Re: Nikon 105 for butterfly collection
In reply to TQGroup, 5 months ago

TQGroup wrote:

Hi Antal

Thank you very much for such a clear and comprehensive explanation! Clearly you have the benefit of a lot of experience behind you.

One question for you, if I may... can you suggest an "optimum" colour and material as a background to the butterflies.

Currently I envisage using a sizable pad of dense rubber into which to stick the pinned butterfly for each individual portrait and I want to cover this with a suitable cloth. I'm thinking about velvet for its non-reflective properties...

And what about colour? An 18% neutral grey? I don't know yet if there is an "industry" standard so I'm open to your thoughts. Cheers Andrew

There are many examples of butterfly collection photographs you can look at to come to a decision, I posted some links in a previous mail.  White is of course a fair default choice although it should be a very matte white so as not to reflect in flashlight.  I've seen other colors used, eg dull green, you will find examples online.  I tend to agree that grey might not be very appealing.  An advantage of grey, which would also be shared by white (or a neutral light grey) is that it could help resolve any color balance issues that arise in future.

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ormdig
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Re: Nikon 105 for butterfly collection
In reply to Antal I Kozma, 5 months ago

Thank you Dave and Antal. I have light and reflectors and even a subject to try this out on. A friend has some different fabrics that she has been trying to capture the textures of to no avail. We will be experimenting using your suggestions now that I have some idea of what to do with the shadows created by the folds,

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dave gaines
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Using photo file numbers to idetify specimens
In reply to TQGroup, 5 months ago

TQGroup wrote:

... Photographing specimens with a simple unique identifier, eg number on a sticker that can be replaced in the display case with the specimen is simpler and hence much faster than "mucking about" with labels and tags of different sizes, shapes and even multiples per specimen. And this is still likely to be our preferred method of image capture as the data entry can be done at leisure by other cost-effective means.

It also seems possible to record the photo file number on a separate paper list of speicmen names or numbers. If the specimens are identified by number or name anywhere in the case, you don't have to photograph that identifier. If you can monitor the image file name or number occasionally in review and sequentially number all of the specimens with that photo file number on a running paper list then anyone could match the photo to the specimen later. All it requires is a pencil and paper on a clipboard.

You should also be able to re-set the file numbering system in-camera to allow for larger file numbers, more than the default 4 digits, so all 10,000 of the file name/numbers are unique. You could occasionally change the prefix letter as the photography and collection progresses, but there's more to remember that way.

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Re: Nikon 105 for butterfly collection
In reply to TQGroup, 5 months ago

Something I hadn't thought of is the cataloging aspect.  Specifically, file naming.  How are you going to identify a particular butterfly once you have thousands of images?    You'll need/want to have some sort of naming scheme, and you'll also want to have EXIF data embedded that identifies the specimen.

Adding that EXIF data has to be done in post, probably best at the moment of upload to a PC.   Get too many images stacked up, and it's going to get harder and harder to add in the needed descriptive data.   My guess is that it's best done on each photo as you take it, with the camera tethered to a PC and saving the image directly onto the PC rather than in the camera.

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TQGroup
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Re: Nikon 105 for butterfly collection
In reply to Antal I Kozma, 5 months ago

Thanks for such a detailed response and sharing your thoughts, Antal. You have certainly given me some more ideas! WI was thinking about grey as a neutral background colour for the cataloging function as many butterflies have black borders and I don't know of too many that have grey edges. In addition, when using flash, any reflectance from a grey surface should be colour neutral. Cheers Andrew

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