Will the A7711 be mirorless

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
tqlla
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Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, 8 months ago

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

I think the translucent will be gone with the A77II. Just my thought. Looks like the A6000 is performing really well and with a big buffer of about 50 shots at 11fps. What more do you want? And better noise performance.

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www.alex-digitalpics.be by Sony

It won't be that simple. If the focal plane AF system does not work well with older lenses, SLT is here to stay, even part time (as in depending on the lens).

Well maybe Sony can do a Mirror lockup for SSM/SAM lenses and the SLT for older lenses.

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123Mike
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Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, 8 months ago

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

I think the translucent will be gone with the A77II. Just my thought. Looks like the A6000 is performing really well and with a big buffer of about 50 shots at 11fps. What more do you want? And better noise performance.

-- hide signature --

www.alex-digitalpics.be by Sony

It won't be that simple. If the focal plane AF system does not work well with older lenses, SLT is here to stay, even part time (as in depending on the lens).

http://www.mhohner.de/sony-minolta/faq.php#backfocus
"Also note that these focusing problems are never a lens problem but always a camera problem! Auto-focus is a feedback loop, and the camera will move the lens to what it considers the best focus. If you had a lens with a slightly misadjusted focusing barrel, the camera would simply move the lens further or less far to achieve an in-focus image"

Ok, so, sensor sees image. Image out of focus. Camera moves focus. Camera sees focused picture. Done. Not?

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless
In reply to 123Mike, 8 months ago

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

I think the translucent will be gone with the A77II. Just my thought. Looks like the A6000 is performing really well and with a big buffer of about 50 shots at 11fps. What more do you want? And better noise performance.

-- hide signature --

www.alex-digitalpics.be by Sony

It won't be that simple. If the focal plane AF system does not work well with older lenses, SLT is here to stay, even part time (as in depending on the lens).

http://www.mhohner.de/sony-minolta/faq.php#backfocus
"Also note that these focusing problems are never a lens problem but always a camera problem! Auto-focus is a feedback loop, and the camera will move the lens to what it considers the best focus. If you had a lens with a slightly misadjusted focusing barrel, the camera would simply move the lens further or less far to achieve an in-focus image"

Ok, so, sensor sees image. Image out of focus. Camera moves focus. Camera sees focused picture. Done. Not?

Its not that simple. The lens has to do so very very quickly or we end up with slow AF (and in case of CDAF, jerky movement).

PDAF lenses are driven straight to the point in focus (or almost as precise as it can be). CDAF lenses use evaluation of contrast often going past and returning back and so on as a feedback loop. So, CDAF requires frequent change in direction whereas PDAF goes in one direction.

The evaluation phase would be the trouble maker for PDAF lens (put an A-mount lens via LAEA1/3 on E-mount camera and you will experience it). That is because the AF motor is not designed for it. This also happens with Live View in DSLRs with lenses designed for PDAF only.

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JamieTux
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I agree
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, 8 months ago

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

As much as I would like to see a hybrid mount body, I have my doubts. It will have to be adapter based (which I have no issue with, as long as it seamlessly fits and works).

Now, if the two mounts/bayonets were identical except for the flange to begin with, a built-in mechanical approach would have been easier.

Even the rumour effectively says that it's an adapter - the difference in depth between the 2 mounts is so large that I can't imagine how you could make a hybrid mount anything other than a version of the existing LA-EAx adapters.

The IBIS would still need to be sensor based so there's no advantages there either...

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless
In reply to tqlla, 8 months ago

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

I think the translucent will be gone with the A77II. Just my thought. Looks like the A6000 is performing really well and with a big buffer of about 50 shots at 11fps. What more do you want? And better noise performance.

-- hide signature --

www.alex-digitalpics.be by Sony

It won't be that simple. If the focal plane AF system does not work well with older lenses, SLT is here to stay, even part time (as in depending on the lens).

Well maybe Sony can do a Mirror lockup for SSM/SAM lenses and the SLT for older lenses.

That is my thinking as well. However, old SSM may still be an issue if not older SAMs as well.

Also, a6000 PDAF works thru f/13 and after that it is CDAF, so that also could introduce s twist.

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Ron Poelman
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What's wrong with SLT, really ? It WORKS.
In reply to Ken Sky, 8 months ago

and offers up a terrific set of benefits.

My biggest fear is the lens thing.
A camera that needs more Meccano,
be it a lens adapter or a viewfinder is a FAIL.

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Gato Amarillo
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Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless
In reply to Ken Sky, 8 months ago

Maybe, but I'd guess not.

I don't see any reason why on-sensor PDAF cannot work the older lenses, I'm just guessing it's another generation or two before they get it fully functional.

Gato

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless
In reply to Gato Amarillo, 8 months ago

Maybe, but I'd guess not.

I don't see any reason why on-sensor PDAF cannot work the older lenses, I'm just guessing it's another generation or two before they get it fully functional.

Gato

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The issue won't be if focal plane AF is PDAF only and uses no CDAF. That being said, a6000 AF is good thru f/13 but after that it is CDAF.

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VirtualMirage
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Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, 8 months ago

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Maybe, but I'd guess not.

I don't see any reason why on-sensor PDAF cannot work the older lenses, I'm just guessing it's another generation or two before they get it fully functional.

Gato

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The issue won't be if focal plane AF is PDAF only and uses no CDAF. That being said, a6000 AF is good thru f/13 but after that it is CDAF.

Well, then, since the typical DSLR/DSLT always focuses with the aperture wide open then it shouldn't be an issue for pictures. Movies, on the other hand, could hit some limitations if shooting with really small apertures. But it would still be better than what our current SLTs allow for video autofocusing (F/3.5).

Or...are you not referring to lens aperture (F/#) but available light instead (candelas, lumens EV, etc.)?

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Paul

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless
In reply to VirtualMirage, 8 months ago

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Maybe, but I'd guess not.

I don't see any reason why on-sensor PDAF cannot work the older lenses, I'm just guessing it's another generation or two before they get it fully functional.

Gato

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"We paint with our brain, not with our hands" -- Michelangelo
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The issue won't be if focal plane AF is PDAF only and uses no CDAF. That being said, a6000 AF is good thru f/13 but after that it is CDAF.

Well, then, since the typical DSLR/DSLT always focuses with the aperture wide open then it should be an issue for pictures.  Movies, on the other hand, could hit some limitations.  But it would still be better than what our current SLTs allow for video autofocusing (F/3.5).

Or...are you not referring to lens aperture (F/#) but available light instead (candelas, lumens EV, etc.)?

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Paul

That would actually be an A-mount advantage. E-mount uses "live" aperture but an A-mount camera will be using aperture wide open. Except when TC is in use but f/13 is pretty safe bet even with those.

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VirtualMirage
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Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, 8 months ago

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Maybe, but I'd guess not.

I don't see any reason why on-sensor PDAF cannot work the older lenses, I'm just guessing it's another generation or two before they get it fully functional.

Gato

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"We paint with our brain, not with our hands" -- Michelangelo
Portrait, figure and fantasy photography at Silver Mirage Gallery:
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The issue won't be if focal plane AF is PDAF only and uses no CDAF. That being said, a6000 AF is good thru f/13 but after that it is CDAF.

Well, then, since the typical DSLR/DSLT always focuses with the aperture wide open then it should be an issue for pictures. Movies, on the other hand, could hit some limitations. But it would still be better than what our current SLTs allow for video autofocusing (F/3.5).

Or...are you not referring to lens aperture (F/#) but available light instead (candelas, lumens EV, etc.)?

-- hide signature --

Paul

That would actually be an A-mount advantage. E-mount uses "live" aperture but an A-mount camera will be using aperture wide open. Except when TC is in use but f/13 is pretty safe bet even with those.

Just realized there was a typo in my original message. First sentence should have been "it shouldn't be an issue", not "it should be an issue". I also expanded upon the potential video limitations.

But, yes, you are right and that was same point I was trying to make.

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Paul

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123Mike
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Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, 8 months ago

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

I think the translucent will be gone with the A77II. Just my thought. Looks like the A6000 is performing really well and with a big buffer of about 50 shots at 11fps. What more do you want? And better noise performance.

-- hide signature --

www.alex-digitalpics.be by Sony

It won't be that simple. If the focal plane AF system does not work well with older lenses, SLT is here to stay, even part time (as in depending on the lens).

http://www.mhohner.de/sony-minolta/faq.php#backfocus
"Also note that these focusing problems are never a lens problem but always a camera problem! Auto-focus is a feedback loop, and the camera will move the lens to what it considers the best focus. If you had a lens with a slightly misadjusted focusing barrel, the camera would simply move the lens further or less far to achieve an in-focus image"

Ok, so, sensor sees image. Image out of focus. Camera moves focus. Camera sees focused picture. Done. Not?

Its not that simple. The lens has to do so very very quickly or we end up with slow AF (and in case of CDAF, jerky movement).

PDAF lenses are driven straight to the point in focus (or almost as precise as it can be). CDAF lenses use evaluation of contrast often going past and returning back and so on as a feedback loop. So, CDAF requires frequent change in direction whereas PDAF goes in one direction.

The evaluation phase would be the trouble maker for PDAF lens (put an A-mount lens via LAEA1/3 on E-mount camera and you will experience it). That is because the AF motor is not designed for it. This also happens with Live View in DSLRs with lenses designed for PDAF only.

But *if* the sensors offer full time PDAF, the camera can know how far off the focus is. Or do you think that sensor based PDAF isn't as good as dedicated PDAF?

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JamieTux
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Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless
In reply to 123Mike, 8 months ago

123Mike wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

I think the translucent will be gone with the A77II. Just my thought. Looks like the A6000 is performing really well and with a big buffer of about 50 shots at 11fps. What more do you want? And better noise performance.

-- hide signature --

www.alex-digitalpics.be by Sony

It won't be that simple. If the focal plane AF system does not work well with older lenses, SLT is here to stay, even part time (as in depending on the lens).

http://www.mhohner.de/sony-minolta/faq.php#backfocus
"Also note that these focusing problems are never a lens problem but always a camera problem! Auto-focus is a feedback loop, and the camera will move the lens to what it considers the best focus. If you had a lens with a slightly misadjusted focusing barrel, the camera would simply move the lens further or less far to achieve an in-focus image"

Ok, so, sensor sees image. Image out of focus. Camera moves focus. Camera sees focused picture. Done. Not?

Its not that simple. The lens has to do so very very quickly or we end up with slow AF (and in case of CDAF, jerky movement).

PDAF lenses are driven straight to the point in focus (or almost as precise as it can be). CDAF lenses use evaluation of contrast often going past and returning back and so on as a feedback loop. So, CDAF requires frequent change in direction whereas PDAF goes in one direction.

The evaluation phase would be the trouble maker for PDAF lens (put an A-mount lens via LAEA1/3 on E-mount camera and you will experience it). That is because the AF motor is not designed for it. This also happens with Live View in DSLRs with lenses designed for PDAF only.

But *if* the sensors offer full time PDAF, the camera can know how far off the focus is. Or do you think that sensor based PDAF isn't as good as dedicated PDAF?

I think you're missing the point a bit Mike.
EG is talking about the mechanics of the system - not a particular use case scenario.
The big advantage of PDAF is that you can see how much something is out of focus - so you can tell the lens where to go - and then reassess again.
Contrast cannot do this - in fact it can't ever tell if something is in focus (put a CDAF only camera into AF-C and focus on something still - you'll see the image get out of focus at times as the camera moves focus to check that contrast is as high as it can be).

So at the moment the point is not about accuracy - it's about the mechanics of how it works and the competing requirements in lens design.
I would look at the Olympus OMD EM1 to get an idea of how compromises can work though

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123Mike
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Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless
In reply to JamieTux, 8 months ago

JamieTux wrote:

123Mike wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

I think the translucent will be gone with the A77II. Just my thought. Looks like the A6000 is performing really well and with a big buffer of about 50 shots at 11fps. What more do you want? And better noise performance.

-- hide signature --

www.alex-digitalpics.be by Sony

It won't be that simple. If the focal plane AF system does not work well with older lenses, SLT is here to stay, even part time (as in depending on the lens).

http://www.mhohner.de/sony-minolta/faq.php#backfocus
"Also note that these focusing problems are never a lens problem but always a camera problem! Auto-focus is a feedback loop, and the camera will move the lens to what it considers the best focus. If you had a lens with a slightly misadjusted focusing barrel, the camera would simply move the lens further or less far to achieve an in-focus image"

Ok, so, sensor sees image. Image out of focus. Camera moves focus. Camera sees focused picture. Done. Not?

Its not that simple. The lens has to do so very very quickly or we end up with slow AF (and in case of CDAF, jerky movement).

PDAF lenses are driven straight to the point in focus (or almost as precise as it can be). CDAF lenses use evaluation of contrast often going past and returning back and so on as a feedback loop. So, CDAF requires frequent change in direction whereas PDAF goes in one direction.

The evaluation phase would be the trouble maker for PDAF lens (put an A-mount lens via LAEA1/3 on E-mount camera and you will experience it). That is because the AF motor is not designed for it. This also happens with Live View in DSLRs with lenses designed for PDAF only.

But *if* the sensors offer full time PDAF, the camera can know how far off the focus is. Or do you think that sensor based PDAF isn't as good as dedicated PDAF?

I think you're missing the point a bit Mike.
EG is talking about the mechanics of the system - not a particular use case scenario.
The big advantage of PDAF is that you can see how much something is out of focus - so you can tell the lens where to go - and then reassess again.
Contrast cannot do this - in fact it can't ever tell if something is in focus (put a CDAF only camera into AF-C and focus on something still - you'll see the image get out of focus at times as the camera moves focus to check that contrast is as high as it can be).

So at the moment the point is not about accuracy - it's about the mechanics of how it works and the competing requirements in lens design.
I would look at the Olympus OMD EM1 to get an idea of how compromises can work though

I know all this. I know that the mirror based systems, the camera can know how much it is out of focus, and can direct the lens with one focusing motion to the desired spot. Or in a few moves, but each step the camera can make a good guess how much to move. And that with CDAF it is a homing-in process requiring the lens being able to focus back and forth without play. With CDAF it's a let's-move-until-we-see-something-we-want type of deal.

My point was that if sensor based PDAF can not see how much something is out of focus very well, then A-mount lenses will likely not perform so well on a mirrorless system. Or that's what I thought EG's point was, and I see that point and I'm making that point also. However, the question is, *if* on-sensor PDAF is as good as mirror based, *then* A-mount on mirror *should* be able to perform just as well. The A6000, even though it has a ton of PDAF points, it also has a ton of CDAF points (why CDAF can't just be across the whole sensor is another matter). But... in tests so far, we're not seeing any hunting whatsoever. I have the feeling that the new on-sensor PDAF does it better than mirror based, and that A-mount lenses can work perfectly well and very fast on mirrorless.

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless
In reply to 123Mike, 8 months ago

If the focal plane AF is exclusively PDAF, it should be directly adaptable to A-mount. But, previously, it has been a hybrid AF system with PDAF assisting CDAF. If that is no longer true then yes. If it is still true, A-mount version will have to be different (PDAF only) to support older lenses.

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JamieTux
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Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless
In reply to 123Mike, 8 months ago

123Mike wrote:

JamieTux wrote:

123Mike wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

I think the translucent will be gone with the A77II. Just my thought. Looks like the A6000 is performing really well and with a big buffer of about 50 shots at 11fps. What more do you want? And better noise performance.

-- hide signature --

www.alex-digitalpics.be by Sony

It won't be that simple. If the focal plane AF system does not work well with older lenses, SLT is here to stay, even part time (as in depending on the lens).

http://www.mhohner.de/sony-minolta/faq.php#backfocus
"Also note that these focusing problems are never a lens problem but always a camera problem! Auto-focus is a feedback loop, and the camera will move the lens to what it considers the best focus. If you had a lens with a slightly misadjusted focusing barrel, the camera would simply move the lens further or less far to achieve an in-focus image"

Ok, so, sensor sees image. Image out of focus. Camera moves focus. Camera sees focused picture. Done. Not?

Its not that simple. The lens has to do so very very quickly or we end up with slow AF (and in case of CDAF, jerky movement).

PDAF lenses are driven straight to the point in focus (or almost as precise as it can be). CDAF lenses use evaluation of contrast often going past and returning back and so on as a feedback loop. So, CDAF requires frequent change in direction whereas PDAF goes in one direction.

The evaluation phase would be the trouble maker for PDAF lens (put an A-mount lens via LAEA1/3 on E-mount camera and you will experience it). That is because the AF motor is not designed for it. This also happens with Live View in DSLRs with lenses designed for PDAF only.

But *if* the sensors offer full time PDAF, the camera can know how far off the focus is. Or do you think that sensor based PDAF isn't as good as dedicated PDAF?

I think you're missing the point a bit Mike.
EG is talking about the mechanics of the system - not a particular use case scenario.
The big advantage of PDAF is that you can see how much something is out of focus - so you can tell the lens where to go - and then reassess again.
Contrast cannot do this - in fact it can't ever tell if something is in focus (put a CDAF only camera into AF-C and focus on something still - you'll see the image get out of focus at times as the camera moves focus to check that contrast is as high as it can be).

So at the moment the point is not about accuracy - it's about the mechanics of how it works and the competing requirements in lens design.
I would look at the Olympus OMD EM1 to get an idea of how compromises can work though

I know all this. I know that the mirror based systems, the camera can know how much it is out of focus, and can direct the lens with one focusing motion to the desired spot. Or in a few moves, but each step the camera can make a good guess how much to move. And that with CDAF it is a homing-in process requiring the lens being able to focus back and forth without play. With CDAF it's a let's-move-until-we-see-something-we-want type of deal.

It's PDAF that works that way - it's not dependent on a mirror.

My point was that if sensor based PDAF can not see how much something is out of focus very well, then A-mount lenses will likely not perform so well on a mirrorless system. Or that's what I thought EG's point was, and I see that point and I'm making that point also. However, the question is, *if* on-sensor PDAF is as good as mirror based, *then* A-mount on mirror *should* be able to perform just as well. The A6000, even though it has a ton of PDAF points, it also has a ton of CDAF points (why CDAF can't just be across the whole sensor is another matter). But... in tests so far, we're not seeing any hunting whatsoever. I have the feeling that the new on-sensor PDAF does it better than mirror based, and that A-mount lenses can work perfectly well and very fast on mirrorless.

Which could work out well - I *think* that EG is basically saying we will have to wait and see.  Unless you know something that I don't there's no way of seeing how the whole system works together with any a-mount lenses (and certainly not all of them).

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Dirk W
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Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless
In reply to Ken Sky, 8 months ago

I don't think so. This would be too much of a change to only call it A77 II.

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lehill
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Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless
In reply to Dirk W, 8 months ago

Dirk W wrote:

I don't think so. This would be too much of a change to only call it A77 II.

Finally, a voice of reason.

Sony took the RX100, made some nice upgrades and called it the RX100 II. I'm not expecting ground-breaking leaps in technology, perhaps WiFi/NFC, WhiteMagic LCD and improved EVF.

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Lance H

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clockwork247
Regular MemberPosts: 383Gear list
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Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless
In reply to lehill, 8 months ago

the pentax K-01 did it, easily, focus is slow with long lens, but shorter ones are quick. and that camera was released a while ago. I have one. The technology is there, and I honestly do not see a reason for mirror, there's a ton of lens/body combo that doesn't work (or atleast people think doesn't work well, or that the lens is soft), what contribute to this is that we focus using 1 sensor and take picture using another. A mirrorless camera focus/take picture using the same dam sensor, no more misfocusing.

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Omer Demirbilek
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Re: Will the A7711 be mirorless
In reply to VirtualMirage, 8 months ago

I had been a long time Nikon user having more than four cameras ( FE2, FM2, F100 and D90 ) and more than 12 lenses.

When I noticed I have problem with holding the cameras steady I swiched to Sony ( Although another reason I have been using an excellent Sony R1 and still use one of them and it is still my main cameras ) and bought a A850m set including more than 10 lenses.

I am more than enough happy with my A850 but I tried A99 and I will never ever buy a camera with SLT which means it's image quality will be somehow lower than another camera uses the same sensor.

The technology created an excellent opportunity to remove mirror box and reflex mirror. Tom Hogen said recently it is an opportunity to any manufacturer to produce a camera cheaper with less moving and less manually micro adjusted parts with much better image quality. And He said including Olympus any mafuctyere will manufacture FF mirrorles cameras by creating a chance to be used with any other lenses.

Me by myself I am happy with my A850 and waiting for Sony to produce mirrorles A mount body with IS .

Otherwise I just bought a Fujifm X-A-1 to be able to use my Nikkor lenses. It is fantastic. I have got the impression I have to think on keeping R1 incoming days..

There is an opportunity there. The first of April joke on dpreview page with Olympus OM-G is almost a real thing which we will see soon. It is up to Sony to use that opportunity or not.

I am just optimistic now. The camera manufacturers are in trouble and up to them to use that opportunity or not either..

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Sony Alpha DSLR-A850
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