I've been lusting for a new camera, but only now have I an inkling what I truly want.

Started 9 months ago | Discussions
ulfie
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Can't get no satisfaction ...
In reply to millardmt, 9 months ago

Marc,  As Suzuki-roshi said, "Seek perfection in imperfection."  ulfie

P.S. My Rollei 35S wasn't put together real well either.  But then again neither is the human body.  However, the petite Rollei did produce some wonderful images, especially using Kodachrome 64 slide film.

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Trevor Carpenter
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Plastic...
In reply to millardmt, 9 months ago
  • doesn't corrode
  • doesn't dent
  • doesn't weigh much
  • doesn't discolour (much)
  • have better weather resistance
  • doesn't burn your hands in the sun
  • doesn't freeze your hands in the cold
  • is cheaper to transport
  • is easier to create complex shapes with
  • easy to self colour without paint
  • means better mpg (oops sorry that doesn't apply to cameras)
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millardmt
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Re: Can't get no satisfaction ...
In reply to ulfie, 9 months ago

Hey Ulfie:

Did you have the lah-de-dah "Silver Anniversary" model or just the plain ol' ordinary Rollei 35S?  And please tell me yours wasn't the "35SE".

Marc

(Don't you hate it when people go off-topic?)

(And as for you Trevor, I'll begin to better appreciate the merits of plastic when they've wrapped a piece of it around my cold, dead toe.)

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onlooker
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Nice ramble, here is where we differ
In reply to millardmt, 9 months ago

millardmt wrote: [...]

Loved your ramble. I just like no-compromise, opinionated rambles when they are presented in a civilized way, even if they do not reflect my own goals. I think it will be difficult for you to find the camera you are looking for. Wish you best of luck in your quest, though.

Here is where we differ:

1) As little plastic as possible. I'll pay a 250% weight AND price penalty for this alone.

I would be happy if the whole camera was plastic (except for lens mount). That would help make the camera a little bigger wider and taller (better ergonomics) while keeping the weight as low as humanly possible.

3) As said before, everything should be removable/modular in design.

I want viewfinder built in always. I find removable items fiddly and fragile.

5) Camera size should be kept to an absolute minimum. (For example, I'd tolerate a substantially smaller than 3" (diagonal) LCD size to keep overall dimensions down.

Camera size should be larger than prevalent today but with low weight (see above about more plastic). However, I agree completely on smaller screens. Make the screen smaller and thus provide a more comfortable grip (again, ergonomics).

6) Wi-Fi, NFC, Art-Filters, social media connectivity and the like should be omitted altogether.

WiFi might come in handy for remote control. "Art filters" should be buried deep in menus, so they don't get activated accidentally. No hard buttons should be dedicated to them.

7) Mechanical shutter only.

Preferably electronic global shutter only.

8) All switches would be of aircraft grade only (or better).

Aircraft plastic, yes.

9) I would beg, borrow or steal $6,000 for a well designed MFT camera-body only with the above attributes.

Camera should not exceed $1000, unless it is mind-bogglingly superb (and even then only by cents).

Marc (thanking you all for your patience);

and, yes, I'm ready for institutional care ...

No, Marc, we all are. Good luck to both of us.

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jalywol
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Re: Nice ramble, here is where we differ
In reply to onlooker, 9 months ago

onlooker wrote:

5) Camera size should be kept to an absolute minimum. (For example, I'd tolerate a substantially smaller than 3" (diagonal) LCD size to keep overall dimensions down.

Camera size should be larger than prevalent today but with low weight (see above about more plastic). However, I agree completely on smaller screens. Make the screen smaller and thus provide a more comfortable grip (again, ergonomics).

Ha.....wait til you hit 50.  I used to happily use the 1.8" screens on my original digicams.  Now I can't see them at all, and I need readers to be able to hold the 3" screens close enough to see any detail.  EVFs do solve that problem though....maybe you should just have a camera with an EVF only?

-J

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ulfie
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35S
In reply to millardmt, 9 months ago

Marc,  My Rollei 35S was the plain, black one, the S.  Not the SE.  I thought it was pretty robust at least when it was in one piece, not with the insert part out.  I now use an Oly E-PL1 with 20/1.7 Panny lens, kind of a digital reincarnation of the 35S.   I'm resisting G.A.S. (Gear Acquisition Syndrome) as much as possible, knowing the PL1 w/ 20/1.7 is way more capable of great IQ (Image Quality) than I am as a photographer.

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FrankS009
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Panasonic GF1
In reply to millardmt, 9 months ago

This has been an enjoyable thread; but with one or two exceptions to your list, take a look at a Panasonic GF1.

F.

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onlooker
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Re: Nice ramble, here is where we differ
In reply to jalywol, 9 months ago

jalywol wrote:

onlooker wrote: Camera size should be larger than prevalent today but with low weight (see above about more plastic). However, I agree completely on smaller screens. Make the screen smaller and thus provide a more comfortable grip (again, ergonomics).

Ha.....wait til you hit 50. I used to happily use the 1.8" screens on my original digicams. Now I can't see them at all, and I need readers to be able to hold the 3" screens close enough to see any detail.

I'm way past it. It does not make any difference to me now if it's 1.8" or 3".

EVFs do solve that problem though....maybe you should just have a camera with an EVF only?

Yep, EVF is a must. Hybrid viewfinder like X100s would be even better when the implementation improves and important information is permanently displayed with appropriate correction for paralax along with good manual focus assist without switching to EVF mode. No such animal yet, so I will settle for an EVF.

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cainn24
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Re: I've been lusting for a new camera, but only now have I an inkling what I truly want.
In reply to millardmt, 9 months ago

millardmt wrote:

Which brings me to my pet peeve: If a camera doesn't have a prism, its EVF better be modular or I'll want nothing to do with it! Period. End of discussion. If I even suspect that a manufacturer's designers are being instructed by its marketing department to make something that "looks like a DSLR" because that's "what our focus groups keep telling us they like," then forget it -- I won't buy it. (I realize built-in EVFs have to located somewhere -- just not THERE!)

Funny.  Put the EVF anywhere else and I'll hate the camera, just as I hated the GX7.  Why?  Because I grew up using SLRs so it is simply the ergonomic paradigm that feels most natural to me.  Sure, there may be a few people who look at me snapping away with my E-M5 and think "look at that guy with his pretend pentaprism" but the insecurities lie with them, not with me.

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Franka T.L.
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Hmm .. Engineering vs Marketing, Want vs Need
In reply to millardmt, 9 months ago

Well .. there's nothing wrong about inking what you need, but seriously what's wanted does not equate what's needed, and in Engineering term there's always these dream machine , but dream machines are usually love / passion driven , and less of an engineered product or solution.

So you want the camera modular, how modular are we talking, should the EVF be optional, so why not the sensor part ( perfectly doable, if Medium format can do that, so too can the smaller format ) how about the mount .. let say the storage ( Video and Cine equipment had long had external recorder ), processing ( should it have modular upgradable processor just like many of our desktop PC ) .. the beauty and the advantage of a small system is its ability to be small ( as one of your requirement goes ) and making it modular is asking it to be well, the other way round shall we say .. Take a look at the Em-10 and now take a look at the E-P5 with external EVF added ...

Dials and knots .. how many. and in what fashion ... todays digital platform had so many parameters that ifwe are to give them dedicated knobs, dials for all we need a control panel the size of a studio audio mixer

I can go on and on and on but I think I've made the point. All equipment envisioned or made are ultimately a compromise of feature / performance / build / cost and yes style also and technical / engineering constraints. Oh and of course marketing influence too. After all these are business, they have to sell .. and sell enough

Shall I direct you to take a look at the old Rollei 3003

Rollei 3003

This perfectly align with yours ( of course its a SLR and of course its not digital ), so to speak .. I guess you have to consider this, you can continue with your lust , or you can simply go find something OK and just go out and shoot some photos and shall I add, most of todays are already well and above just being OK

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- Franka -

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Ido S
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Leica
In reply to millardmt, 9 months ago

Seems to me like Leica's latest M (Typ. 240) is your only option. Unless you're not willing to buy new lenses, then there's simply no option for you. Oh, I forgot it actually has video! Then maybe Leica M9…

An M 240 costs about $7,000 brand new. There's the Leica M-E for a more reasonable $5,450. The legit Leica lenses are the best in the business, but are also very expensive, so less expensive options from Zeiss and Vöigtlander are also very good.

You can probably look for the M9 in other stores, I only checked B&H. Maybe special dealers like Ken Hansen will have better deals.

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pocketpygmy
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Re: I've been lusting for a new camera, but only now have I an inkling what I truly want.
In reply to millardmt, 9 months ago

yeah; no; seriously -- we all like someone with an actual opinion, and we all probably need 'institutional care', and we don't not think you belong here (i sure as hell don't 'belong' but apparently that isn't stopping me), but:

how is what you're describing ($6000+ pricetag included/especially) much different from what the masters of craftsman cameras -- Leica -- have been offering for decades?

(i guess i'm rather naively assuming that if one is going past $2-3000 per compact system, they might as well be all in and $6000 becomes indistinguishable from $16,000.)

i saw a film recently in which a camera figured rather prominently in a scene, and only just barely survived keeping the illusionistic coherence intact. that is, if it had been anything other than a Leica (i imagined in its place my own camera, that paragon of retro-digital design, the OM-D E-EM5 with 12mm f2 -- and shuddered), the scene (IMHO) might have been ruined; it would not have made sense, it wouldn't have felt real, things would have felt off, out of place. i'm not saying i know for sure what, precisely, that means, but i do think -- and call me materialist or animistic if you really care to -- that objects and their placement in the world can have a profound, subconscious effect on the way that we see the world, and carry on, and define ourselves.

i know that sounds dramatic, but how can any of us deny that there is something mystic about 'taking pictures' or 'making images'? and then how far of a leap is it to play with the words and meanings beyond the photos and the gear and consider what they mean in the actions and presences entailed with photography?

maybe i'll shut up now? but i do think y'all'd have a hoot reading susan sontag's 'on photography' if you haven't already... i'm slowly working through it right now -- it's really, pretty profound stuff.

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Michael Jardine
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GX7 or EP5
In reply to millardmt, 9 months ago

millardmt wrote:

Which brings me to my pet peeve: If a camera doesn't have a prism, its EVF better be modular or I'll want nothing to do with it! Period. End of discussion.

Your comments above make the discussion simple. If you want a viewfinder (but not the 'hump') then you'll want the GX7.  If you don't care about having a viewfinder, the E-P5 is probably best, because it also has a large number of external controls.

Personally, I think you might want to pick up an E-M10 and play with it  

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Cane
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Re: I've been lusting for a new camera, but only now have I an inkling what I truly want.
In reply to millardmt, 9 months ago

Let me guess, you are over 65 years old?

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Cane
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Re: I've been lusting for a new camera, but only now have I an inkling what I truly want.
In reply to Jim Salvas, 9 months ago

Jim Salvas wrote:

There are probably about 100 people in the market for the camera you describe, so to amortize costs, the price will be more like $2.5 million each.

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Jim Salvas

95 of them will have 'kicked off' by the time it makes it to shelves, so better redo the math.

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Glen Barrington
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A great attempt at marginalizing someone you disagree with.
In reply to Cane, 9 months ago

Cane wrote:

Let me guess, you are over 65 years old?

Implying that YOUR definition of how a camera should operate is somehow more valid than anyone else's or connected to age is both self indulgent, self referential and lacks any sort of intellectual self awareness. Typical of adolescent behavior.

Let ME guess, are you 14?

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tko
tko
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Re: I've been lusting for a new camera, but only now have I an inkling what I truly want.
In reply to millardmt, 9 months ago

Too weird for me.

Other hobbies attract people who are more reasonable. Does Tiger Wood worry about how pretty his golf clubs are? Micheal Jordan the color of the basketball? A bike racer races the bike that . . . wins.

Do you even know what aerospace grade switches are? Have you even seen one?

I refuse this, I refuse that, I don't want that.

Fashion follows form and function. Products shouldn't have styling cues, that's what makes them ugly. There is nothing more ugly than a product where a styling management decided to make it pretty.

No where in your rant do you mention that it has to take photos of any type, let alone have high image quality.

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professional cynic and contrarian: don't take it personally

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millardmt
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Re: I've been lusting for a new camera, but only now have I an inkling what I truly want.
In reply to millardmt, 9 months ago

Go easily, lads.  (As, indeed, most of you are.)  My ego's not that robust.

Here's a puzzler for all of you.  Why is the command dial on my Olympus E-P3 -- a camera with an initial retail price of $899 USD -- attached with a spot of glue?  Eh?  Anyone have a theory?

Nuts.  I stand by my words.  Today's camera's are utterly lacking in craftsmanship and, no, you couldn't give me a modern Leica.

Marc

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Glen Barrington
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Uhhh, the "P" in "E-P3" stands for "Paste"?
In reply to millardmt, 9 months ago

millardmt wrote:

Go easily, lads. (As, indeed, most of you are.) My ego's not that robust.

Here's a puzzler for all of you. Why is the command dial on my Olympus E-P3 -- a camera with an initial retail price of $899 USD -- attached with a spot of glue? Eh? Anyone have a theory?

Nuts. I stand by my words. Today's camera's are utterly lacking in craftsmanship and, no, you couldn't give me a modern Leica.

Marc

It's as good a theory as any.

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millardmt
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Re: Uhhh, the "P" in "E-P3" stands for "Paste"?
In reply to Glen Barrington, 9 months ago

Ah.  Of course.  Thank you sir!

I mean, seriously, my camera's command dial should have been threaded to receive a single JIS (Japanese Industrial Standards) cross-head screw, secured with some loctite.

It is omissions like this that drive me to such fury.  All in order to save a few yen.

Grrrr.

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