XT1 - Truly Superior IQ

Started 4 months ago | Discussions
nixda
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XT1 - Truly Superior IQ, compared to the GX7, the way you are using these cameras
In reply to Photo-Wiz, 4 months ago

Photo-Wiz wrote:

Sal Baker wrote:

That process is only testing your ability to consistently hold a camera with no movement. The "best" shots are only the ones that randomly had less motion and says nothing about the cameras being tested.

The reason why people test sharpness on a static image with a tripod is to remove the variables. Otherwise you are only documenting which camera might look sharper when the image is motion-blurred.

Sal

If we assume this is correct, and I use a tripod perhaps once every 5000 shots, then isn't this type of test meaningful for me as the user? Why wouldn't I want to know how sharp pictures will be with this particular camera in my hands? In the end, doesn't it matter more to know how the camera will behave in my hands, shooting in the manner in which I am accustomed (i.e. no tripod)?

I have to admit that I am also very suspicious of any such sweeping statements as "XT1 - Truly Superior IQ".

Regardless of how you want to use your cameras, there are objective capabilities of each system, and then there are ways to actually realize those. And you didn't say much about how you used the cameras you are comparing. Did you use the images ooc? Did you adjust sharpness afterwards? Since sharpness depends critically on intended output format (viewing/printing size), many ooc-images are intentionally kept on the soft side to give the user the option to optimally adjust the sharpness for the desired output. Also, did you use the same lenses, or at least lenses with similar inherent sharpness? It's possible you are comparing lenses, not sensors.

I think the fact that I take a series of pictures of each object/scene with each camera, tends to reduce the overall impact of my own personal wobblyness (not sure if there is such a word) -- especially because in the end I compare the best pictures that each camera was able to take.

In this case, believe me I really wanted to like the GX7 better, because I could have saved a few hundred dollars. I was still in the period in which the XT1 was returnable. But I decided to keep the XT1 even though it cost more because it yielded significantly better results (at least in these hands of mine).

I think it would have been more accurate to say ""XT1 - Truly Superior IQ, compared to the GX7, the way I am using these cameras".

When absolutist statements are presented, don't be surprised to get some 'feedback'.

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fotophool
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Re: XT1 - Truly Superior IQ, compared to the GX7, the way you are using these cameras
In reply to nixda, 4 months ago

nixda wrote:

Photo-Wiz wrote:

Sal Baker wrote:

That process is only testing your ability to consistently hold a camera with no movement. The "best" shots are only the ones that randomly had less motion and says nothing about the cameras being tested.

The reason why people test sharpness on a static image with a tripod is to remove the variables. Otherwise you are only documenting which camera might look sharper when the image is motion-blurred.

Sal

If we assume this is correct, and I use a tripod perhaps once every 5000 shots, then isn't this type of test meaningful for me as the user? Why wouldn't I want to know how sharp pictures will be with this particular camera in my hands? In the end, doesn't it matter more to know how the camera will behave in my hands, shooting in the manner in which I am accustomed (i.e. no tripod)?

I have to admit that I am also very suspicious of any such sweeping statements as "XT1 - Truly Superior IQ".

Regardless of how you want to use your cameras, there are objective capabilities of each system, and then there are ways to actually realize those. And you didn't say much about how you used the cameras you are comparing. Did you use the images ooc? Did you adjust sharpness afterwards? Since sharpness depends critically on intended output format (viewing/printing size), many ooc-images are intentionally kept on the soft side to give the user the option to optimally adjust the sharpness for the desired output. Also, did you use the same lenses, or at least lenses with similar inherent sharpness? It's possible you are comparing lenses, not sensors.

I think the fact that I take a series of pictures of each object/scene with each camera, tends to reduce the overall impact of my own personal wobblyness (not sure if there is such a word) -- especially because in the end I compare the best pictures that each camera was able to take.

In this case, believe me I really wanted to like the GX7 better, because I could have saved a few hundred dollars. I was still in the period in which the XT1 was returnable. But I decided to keep the XT1 even though it cost more because it yielded significantly better results (at least in these hands of mine).

I think it would have been more accurate to say ""XT1 - Truly Superior IQ, compared to the GX7, the way I am using these cameras".

When absolutist statements are presented, don't be surprised to get some 'feedback'.

Egg-xactly.

fotophool

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SaltLakeGuy
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They made me walk the plank
In reply to guitarjeff, 4 months ago

here on this forum for my slamming of the mft stuff when I converted over from a EM1 to the X-T1. I'm sorry but frankly I don't consider them equal on ANY level. They want to call me a fanboy go right ahead. I feel comfortable backing it up all day long. Better IQ across the board PERIOD. Better high speed tracking and I prefer the layout. Oh well......

-- hide signature --

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fotophool
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Re: They made me walk the plank
In reply to SaltLakeGuy, 4 months ago

SaltLakeGuy wrote:

here on this forum for my slamming of the mft stuff when I converted over from a EM1 to the X-T1. I'm sorry but frankly I don't consider them equal on ANY level.

Flash, video? Really?

They want to call me a fanboy go right ahead. I feel comfortable backing it up all day long.

Pictures are worth a thousand words, you know.

Which is what I find so funny about the two most vocal fanboys here -- you and guitarjeff.

You'd think that if the Fuji was truly the greatest camera ever invented that the both of you would be endlessly bombarding us on a daily basis with pics that any other camera or system could only dream about. After all, you "feel comfortable backing it up all day long."

Instead, we get mostly...verbiage. The same verbiage, I might add, over and over and over.

Ray Sachs has a perspective on this stuff. It might behoove you and guitarjeff to get one, too.

And he takes better pictures than the two of you, too.

And my apologies to Ray for dragging him into this.

Better IQ across the board PERIOD. Better high speed tracking and I prefer the layout. Oh well......

-- hide signature --

Fuji X-T1 Camera, Fuji 18-55 f2.8-f4 Lens, Fuji 55-200 f4-f5.6 Lens, Fuji 23mm f1.4 Lens, Fuji 56mm f1.2R Lens, Fuji EF-42 Flash, Picturecode PhotoNinja

Oh, well, indeed.

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Beat Traveller
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Re: XT1 - Truly Superior IQ
In reply to Sal Baker, 4 months ago

Sal Baker wrote:

That process is only testing your ability to consistently hold a camera with no movement. The "best" shots are only the ones that randomly had less motion and says nothing about the cameras being tested.

The reason why people test sharpness on a static image with a tripod is to remove the variables. Otherwise you are only documenting which camera might look sharper when the image is motion-blurred.

Sal

Shooting with a tripod won't change the colour rendition though...

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trueview
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Re: XT1 - Truly Superior IQ
In reply to Sal Baker, 4 months ago

Sal Baker wrote:

Photo-Wiz wrote:

Sal Baker wrote:

That process is only testing your ability to consistently hold a camera with no movement. The "best" shots are only the ones that randomly had less motion and says nothing about the cameras being tested.

The reason why people test sharpness on a static image with a tripod is to remove the variables. Otherwise you are only documenting which camera might look sharper when the image is motion-blurred.

Sal

If we assume this is correct, and I use a tripod perhaps once every 5000 shots, then isn't this type of test meaningful for me as the user? Why wouldn't I want to know how sharp pictures will be with this particular camera in my hands? In the end, doesn't it matter more to know how the camera will behave in my hands, shooting in the manner in which I am accustomed (i.e. no tripod)?

I think the fact that I take a series of pictures of each object/scene with each camera, tends to reduce the overall impact of my own personal wobblyness (not sure if there is such a word) -- especially because in the end I compare the best pictures that each camera was able to take.

In this case, believe me I really wanted to like the GX7 better, because I could have saved a few hundred dollars. I was still in the period in which the XT1 was returnable. But I decided to keep the XT1 even though it cost more because it yielded significantly better results (at least in these hands of mine).

If you want to know which camera is sharper, remove the variables and test on a tripod. The only difference in shooting handheld is that you introduce possible motion blur. If you want to test to see which camera has sharper motion blur then test shooting handheld. As mentioned above, there's a difference between testing for absolute sharpness that a camera can produce, and testing one's ability to hold a camera steady.

Sal

When testing handheld, you are not just testing the sharpness of motion blur (a concept I fail to understand, by the way). You are testing how much motion blur a camera produces, due to shutter shock, other mechanical vibration (mirror motion, for instance), shake produced by the ergonomics of the shutter release, etc.

here's an example : a hasselblad or a rolleiflex can both produce very sharp results, but unless you use high shutter speed the rollei is likely to produce sharper results handheld due to the absence of mirror.

Wether this applies to the present comparison, I don't know as I own neither camera. But what I am trying to say is that if you are going to use a camera mainly handheld, it makes a lot of sense to test it handheld, as what you are interested in is not absolute sharpness, but sharpness attainable taking into account the mechanical vibrations produced by the camera.

for instance, when I use my 5d3 handheld on relatively static subjects, I switch to silent mode as it significantly reduces shutter and mirror shock. It makes a visible difference in sharpness at lower speed.

Or the x pro 1 produces a bit more shutter shock then a Leica m6 (easy to compensate with higher ISO setting on the x pro 1)

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Ger Horgan
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Re: XT1 - Truly Superior IQ
In reply to Photo-Wiz, 4 months ago

Photo-Wiz wrote:

In every case, the XT1 pictures were visibly superior. Better sharpness and better color rendition. My experience with the GX7, much like my experience of a year ago with the Oly EM5 was that it has trouble taking truly sharp pictures. I don't know if that is because of shuttershock or something else. I even tried the Electronic Shutter option. But it made little difference. None of the pictures approached the IQ of the XT1. So I returned the GX7.

Fuji, it looks like I'm here to stay. Love my XT1.

Good for you but I have no trouble taking truly sharp pictures with the GX7

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Bouddha
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Re: XT1 - Truly Superior IQ
In reply to Photo-Wiz, 4 months ago

I agree with you.

but I would turn the sentence differently.....

the XT1 is the one that suits you best because of what ever it is, you can produce sharper hand held photos.

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trueview
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Re: same here
In reply to guitarjeff, 4 months ago

guitarjeff wrote:

Welcome Photo W. You got a wonderful camera. X trans photos simply have a unique look and feel that transcends the sum of it's parts (or charts). There are a few here who have a problem with X trans for whatever reasons. But like many, when you see the photos you perceive those unique qualities, a mixture of the colors and sharpness, the way it captures the actual environment. Some may not perceive it, others may perceive it and don't like it anyway.

Watch out for those who say they are Fuji fans in a big way. Ask them specifically if they like X trans, the very direction of the company they say they love.

Now, if you want to be blown away, head over to Fliker and search groups for X trans, and get ready for tens of thousands of incredible shots. Search the XF 23mm, the XF 14, the 35, the 55-200 lenses. These thousands of photos clearly prove what a special too Fuji has created, and you have seen this for yourself in your own photos already.

It truly is an X trans universe, and I am proud to be a fanboy. It's okay to be a fanboy if your object of desire is the best.

Maybe a slight loss of sense of perspective here ?

I mean, I'm thoroughly satisfied with the xtrans sensor: the x pro 1 for me has become the digital equivalent of my Leica M6, since digital Leica prices are vastly out of my range.

The size-weight / IQ ratio of the x pro one is nothing short of stunning. But come on, I also get amazing results from my 5DIII. I also got to use a D800 a few times : can this camera also deliver in terms of IQ !

Fuji cameras are truly excellent, and with ergonomics I'm particularly fond of. But unique ?

In my opinion, uniqueness has more to do with what is in front of the camera and who is behind the camera, than the camera itself...

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Dave Chilvers
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Re: XT1 - Truly Superior IQ
In reply to Ger Horgan, 4 months ago

There are two kinds of testing, out and out testing cameras and lenses, tripod, cable release and mirror up against maybe a flat brick wall.

The there is taking that camera out in the field and shooting real world images either hand held or tripod. I don`t use a tripod anymore but for sure some cameras lend themselves to being hand held where as others don`t. For what ever reason, size and shape of hands and fingers make a big difference even the action of the shutter release has a bearing. The there is to fit a grip and thumbs up or not all makes a difference so you must try to set up things for you and your shape. I`ve mentioned before but no one remarked that I have fitted  a small 12mm round rubber foot 4mm thick( those things you stick on items to stop them moving on your desktop) and as a thumb rest that keeps it away from the rear buttons, it works a treat. It might not work for some with different hands. (you could buy them commercially made for the X10 as I remember)

You need to test a camera at the places that you know and can judge against other cameras shooting the same subject, even choosing the same light makes a difference. Only you can tell with YOUR images, shot with your hands and viewed on your computer processed the way you process images.

Under those conditions mentioned above for me the x trans sensors shine, they might not suit everyone like cars that are very personal but if they do then you will be in for a pleasant surprise walking around with new found freedom from weight.

Dave

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guitarjeff
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Re: They made me walk the plank
In reply to fotophool, 4 months ago

fotophool wrote:

SaltLakeGuy wrote:

here on this forum for my slamming of the mft stuff when I converted over from a EM1 to the X-T1. I'm sorry but frankly I don't consider them equal on ANY level.

Flash, video? Really?

They want to call me a fanboy go right ahead. I feel comfortable backing it up all day long.

Pictures are worth a thousand words, you know.

Which is what I find so funny about the two most vocal fanboys here -- you and guitarjeff.

You'd think that if the Fuji was truly the greatest camera ever invented that the both of you would be endlessly bombarding us on a daily basis with pics that any other camera or system could only dream about. After all, you "feel comfortable backing it up all day long."

Instead, we get mostly...verbiage. The same verbiage, I might add, over and over and over.

Ray Sachs has a perspective on this stuff. It might behoove you and guitarjeff to get one, too.

And he takes better pictures than the two of you, too.

And my apologies to Ray for dragging him into this.

Ridiculous. To begin with you say you don't see any special character or have any unique feel for X trans photos, so what good would it be for you to see ANY x trans shots?  Secondly, as a thread was just posted recently about how many shots are shown here and most agree this is an equipment talk forum, so what was it you said, we should be "Bombarding this place with photos"?  LAUGHABLE!!

Third, I have been posting photos, try looking in the appropriate weekly thread the moderator puts up.

Fourth, you should not want to see great X trans photos like the TENS OF THOUSANDS of fabulous photos on the various X trans groups on Fliker.  You see you claim that X trans is nothing special, artifacts and all kinds of nasties, so TENS OF THOUSANDS of great shots DIRECTLY contradicts your silly claims about X trans.  No wonder you had some kind of mental meltdown when I posted links to the various XF lens Flikre groups, those photos show how silly your contentions about X trans are.

Here are a few I have added to the appropriate photo threads without bombarding the forum. But again, meaningless since your mental hangup is with x trans, not individual photogs, right?

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guitarjeff
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Re: They made me walk the plank
In reply to guitarjeff, 4 months ago

guitarjeff wrote:

fotophool wrote:

SaltLakeGuy wrote:

here on this forum for my slamming of the mft stuff when I converted over from a EM1 to the X-T1. I'm sorry but frankly I don't consider them equal on ANY level.

Flash, video? Really?

They want to call me a fanboy go right ahead. I feel comfortable backing it up all day long.

Pictures are worth a thousand words, you know.

Which is what I find so funny about the two most vocal fanboys here -- you and guitarjeff.

You'd think that if the Fuji was truly the greatest camera ever invented that the both of you would be endlessly bombarding us on a daily basis with pics that any other camera or system could only dream about. After all, you "feel comfortable backing it up all day long."

Instead, we get mostly...verbiage. The same verbiage, I might add, over and over and over.

Ray Sachs has a perspective on this stuff. It might behoove you and guitarjeff to get one, too.

And he takes better pictures than the two of you, too.

And my apologies to Ray for dragging him into this.

Ridiculous. To begin with you say you don't see any special character or have any unique feel for X trans photos, so what good would it be for you to see ANY x trans shots? Secondly, as a thread was just posted recently about how many shots are shown here and most agree this is an equipment talk forum, so what was it you said, we should be "Bombarding this place with photos"? LAUGHABLE!!

Third, I have been posting photos, try looking in the appropriate weekly thread the moderator puts up.

Fourth, you should not want to see great X trans photos like the TENS OF THOUSANDS of fabulous photos on the various X trans groups on Fliker. You see you claim that X trans is nothing special, artifacts and all kinds of nasties, so TENS OF THOUSANDS of great shots DIRECTLY contradicts your silly claims about X trans. No wonder you had some kind of mental meltdown when I posted links to the various XF lens Flikre groups, those photos show how silly your contentions about X trans are.

Here are a few I have added to the appropriate photo threads without bombarding the forum. But again, meaningless since your mental hangup is with x trans, not individual photogs, right?

And one just for phool, I had a dream the X trans haters were coming to get me, I found the perfect representation of the X trans hater.

Now, if you would like to head over to Fliker together we can go through a few thousand great X trans photos together and maybe I can teach you to perceive their unique qualities that you presently can't seem to see.  And by the way, I see you mainly posting pics in the FUJI forum from other cameras, and rarely any FUJI photos.  why are you in the forum again?  Oh yeah, your agenda against X trans, I forgot for a moment.

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Sal Baker
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Re: XT1 - Truly Superior IQ
In reply to trueview, 4 months ago

trueview wrote:

Sal Baker wrote:

Photo-Wiz wrote:

Sal Baker wrote:

That process is only testing your ability to consistently hold a camera with no movement. The "best" shots are only the ones that randomly had less motion and says nothing about the cameras being tested.

The reason why people test sharpness on a static image with a tripod is to remove the variables. Otherwise you are only documenting which camera might look sharper when the image is motion-blurred.

Sal

If we assume this is correct, and I use a tripod perhaps once every 5000 shots, then isn't this type of test meaningful for me as the user? Why wouldn't I want to know how sharp pictures will be with this particular camera in my hands? In the end, doesn't it matter more to know how the camera will behave in my hands, shooting in the manner in which I am accustomed (i.e. no tripod)?

I think the fact that I take a series of pictures of each object/scene with each camera, tends to reduce the overall impact of my own personal wobblyness (not sure if there is such a word) -- especially because in the end I compare the best pictures that each camera was able to take.

In this case, believe me I really wanted to like the GX7 better, because I could have saved a few hundred dollars. I was still in the period in which the XT1 was returnable. But I decided to keep the XT1 even though it cost more because it yielded significantly better results (at least in these hands of mine).

If you want to know which camera is sharper, remove the variables and test on a tripod. The only difference in shooting handheld is that you introduce possible motion blur. If you want to test to see which camera has sharper motion blur then test shooting handheld. As mentioned above, there's a difference between testing for absolute sharpness that a camera can produce, and testing one's ability to hold a camera steady.

Sal

When testing handheld, you are not just testing the sharpness of motion blur (a concept I fail to understand, by the way). You are testing how much motion blur a camera produces, due to shutter shock, other mechanical vibration (mirror motion, for instance), shake produced by the ergonomics of the shutter release, etc.

here's an example : a hasselblad or a rolleiflex can both produce very sharp results, but unless you use high shutter speed the rollei is likely to produce sharper results handheld due to the absence of mirror.

Wether this applies to the present comparison, I don't know as I own neither camera. But what I am trying to say is that if you are going to use a camera mainly handheld, it makes a lot of sense to test it handheld, as what you are interested in is not absolute sharpness, but sharpness attainable taking into account the mechanical vibrations produced by the camera.

for instance, when I use my 5d3 handheld on relatively static subjects, I switch to silent mode as it significantly reduces shutter and mirror shock. It makes a visible difference in sharpness at lower speed.

Or the x pro 1 produces a bit more shutter shock then a Leica m6 (easy to compensate with higher ISO setting on the x pro 1)

But then you will never know which is motion blur from hand holding the camera and which is mirror shock.  Testing the sharpness of motion blur is a silly concept, but that's what is happening when absolute image sharpness is tested with hand held techniques.  First, test on a tripod to see the max sharpness a camera/lens can render at a given aperture.  Then, compare how closely you can get hand holding the camera.  That's a very good difference to know IMO, and a better way to compare two cameras for sharpness performance.

Sal

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guitarjeff
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Re: same here
In reply to trueview, 4 months ago

trueview wrote:

guitarjeff wrote:

Welcome Photo W. You got a wonderful camera. X trans photos simply have a unique look and feel that transcends the sum of it's parts (or charts). There are a few here who have a problem with X trans for whatever reasons. But like many, when you see the photos you perceive those unique qualities, a mixture of the colors and sharpness, the way it captures the actual environment. Some may not perceive it, others may perceive it and don't like it anyway.

Watch out for those who say they are Fuji fans in a big way. Ask them specifically if they like X trans, the very direction of the company they say they love.

Now, if you want to be blown away, head over to Fliker and search groups for X trans, and get ready for tens of thousands of incredible shots. Search the XF 23mm, the XF 14, the 35, the 55-200 lenses. These thousands of photos clearly prove what a special too Fuji has created, and you have seen this for yourself in your own photos already.

It truly is an X trans universe, and I am proud to be a fanboy. It's okay to be a fanboy if your object of desire is the best.

Maybe a slight loss of sense of perspective here ?

I mean, I'm thoroughly satisfied with the xtrans sensor: the x pro 1 for me has become the digital equivalent of my Leica M6, since digital Leica prices are vastly out of my range.

The size-weight / IQ ratio of the x pro one is nothing short of stunning. But come on, I also get amazing results from my 5DIII. I also got to use a D800 a few times : can this camera also deliver in terms of IQ !

Fuji cameras are truly excellent, and with ergonomics I'm particularly fond of. But unique ?

In my opinion, uniqueness has more to do with what is in front of the camera and who is behind the camera, than the camera itself...

Oh yeah, very unique to me and many others.  The colors ALONE make them unique to me and many.  And yeah, somewhat overblown because it fun to toy with the X trans haters.

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guitarjeff
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Re: XT1 - Truly Superior IQ
In reply to Ger Horgan, 4 months ago

Ger Horgan wrote:

Photo-Wiz wrote:

In every case, the XT1 pictures were visibly superior. Better sharpness and better color rendition. My experience with the GX7, much like my experience of a year ago with the Oly EM5 was that it has trouble taking truly sharp pictures. I don't know if that is because of shuttershock or something else. I even tried the Electronic Shutter option. But it made little difference. None of the pictures approached the IQ of the XT1. So I returned the GX7.

Fuji, it looks like I'm here to stay. Love my XT1.

Good for you but I have no trouble taking truly sharp pictures with the GX7

-- hide signature --

Nice, but I prefer X trans photos, the colors alone make them unique, they render a bit differently.  That doesn't mean other cams take bad photos, it just means that X trans lovers see something a little different and unique in the shots, that why many bought the system.

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nixda
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Re: XT1 - Truly Superior IQ
In reply to Dave Chilvers, 4 months ago

Dave Chilvers wrote:

There are two kinds of testing, out and out testing cameras and lenses, tripod, cable release and mirror up against maybe a flat brick wall.

The there is taking that camera out in the field and shooting real world images either hand held or tripod. I don`t use a tripod anymore but for sure some cameras lend themselves to being hand held where as others don`t. For what ever reason, size and shape of hands and fingers make a big difference even the action of the shutter release has a bearing. The there is to fit a grip and thumbs up or not all makes a difference so you must try to set up things for you and your shape. I`ve mentioned before but no one remarked that I have fitted a small 12mm round rubber foot 4mm thick( those things you stick on items to stop them moving on your desktop) and as a thumb rest that keeps it away from the rear buttons, it works a treat. It might not work for some with different hands. (you could buy them commercially made for the X10 as I remember)

You need to test a camera at the places that you know and can judge against other cameras shooting the same subject, even choosing the same light makes a difference. Only you can tell with YOUR images, shot with your hands and viewed on your computer processed the way you process images.

Under those conditions mentioned above for me the x trans sensors shine, they might not suit everyone like cars that are very personal but if they do then you will be in for a pleasant surprise walking around with new found freedom from weight.

Dave

You are absolutely correct in everything you're saying here.

However, my issue is that the OP has not demonstrated, nor is there any sign of even remotely trying to find out, where exactly the problem lies. Color rendition could be due to so many things about the in-camera raw processor. For all we know, he could have taken B&W images with the GX7 and Velvia shots with the Fuji, and then complained about color rendition. Bottom line is that he hasn't divulged how the images were created.

Same thing about sharpness. Was it camera shake that's responsible? Was there something wrong with the camera? Did the lenses used have different inherent sharpness? What were the in-camera sharpness settings? How did he print/view the images? Did he present any examples of what he was talking about?

A catchy heading for the OP, but no details to back it all up. One should expect rigorous methods to get to the bottom of things, otherwise one cannot assess whether the OP's notion is valid or not.

Threads like these just leave a sour taste as they throw the kind of absolutist statements out into the wild that are fodder for trolls and a source of confusion for innocent bystanders who are seeking useful information.

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Fujifilm X-E1 Fujifilm XF 14mm F2.8 R Fujifilm XF 18-55mm F2.8-4 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 55-200mm F3.5-4.8 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 27mm F2.8
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nixda
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Re: XT1 - Truly Superior IQ
In reply to Sal Baker, 4 months ago

Sal Baker wrote:

trueview wrote:

Sal Baker wrote:

Photo-Wiz wrote:

Sal Baker wrote:

That process is only testing your ability to consistently hold a camera with no movement. The "best" shots are only the ones that randomly had less motion and says nothing about the cameras being tested.

The reason why people test sharpness on a static image with a tripod is to remove the variables. Otherwise you are only documenting which camera might look sharper when the image is motion-blurred.

Sal

If we assume this is correct, and I use a tripod perhaps once every 5000 shots, then isn't this type of test meaningful for me as the user? Why wouldn't I want to know how sharp pictures will be with this particular camera in my hands? In the end, doesn't it matter more to know how the camera will behave in my hands, shooting in the manner in which I am accustomed (i.e. no tripod)?

I think the fact that I take a series of pictures of each object/scene with each camera, tends to reduce the overall impact of my own personal wobblyness (not sure if there is such a word) -- especially because in the end I compare the best pictures that each camera was able to take.

In this case, believe me I really wanted to like the GX7 better, because I could have saved a few hundred dollars. I was still in the period in which the XT1 was returnable. But I decided to keep the XT1 even though it cost more because it yielded significantly better results (at least in these hands of mine).

If you want to know which camera is sharper, remove the variables and test on a tripod. The only difference in shooting handheld is that you introduce possible motion blur. If you want to test to see which camera has sharper motion blur then test shooting handheld. As mentioned above, there's a difference between testing for absolute sharpness that a camera can produce, and testing one's ability to hold a camera steady.

Sal

When testing handheld, you are not just testing the sharpness of motion blur (a concept I fail to understand, by the way). You are testing how much motion blur a camera produces, due to shutter shock, other mechanical vibration (mirror motion, for instance), shake produced by the ergonomics of the shutter release, etc.

here's an example : a hasselblad or a rolleiflex can both produce very sharp results, but unless you use high shutter speed the rollei is likely to produce sharper results handheld due to the absence of mirror.

Wether this applies to the present comparison, I don't know as I own neither camera. But what I am trying to say is that if you are going to use a camera mainly handheld, it makes a lot of sense to test it handheld, as what you are interested in is not absolute sharpness, but sharpness attainable taking into account the mechanical vibrations produced by the camera.

for instance, when I use my 5d3 handheld on relatively static subjects, I switch to silent mode as it significantly reduces shutter and mirror shock. It makes a visible difference in sharpness at lower speed.

Or the x pro 1 produces a bit more shutter shock then a Leica m6 (easy to compensate with higher ISO setting on the x pro 1)

But then you will never know which is motion blur from hand holding the camera and which is mirror shock. Testing the sharpness of motion blur is a silly concept, but that's what is happening when absolute image sharpness is tested with hand held techniques. First, test on a tripod to see the max sharpness a camera/lens can render at a given aperture. Then, compare how closely you can get hand holding the camera. That's a very good difference to know IMO, and a better way to compare two cameras for sharpness performance.

Yes, but please let's make a distinction between 'motion blur' and 'camera shake', which are really very different things.

 nixda's gear list:nixda's gear list
Fujifilm X-E1 Fujifilm XF 14mm F2.8 R Fujifilm XF 18-55mm F2.8-4 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 55-200mm F3.5-4.8 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 27mm F2.8
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nixda
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Re: same here
In reply to guitarjeff, 4 months ago

guitarjeff wrote:

trueview wrote:

guitarjeff wrote:

Welcome Photo W. You got a wonderful camera. X trans photos simply have a unique look and feel that transcends the sum of it's parts (or charts). There are a few here who have a problem with X trans for whatever reasons. But like many, when you see the photos you perceive those unique qualities, a mixture of the colors and sharpness, the way it captures the actual environment. Some may not perceive it, others may perceive it and don't like it anyway.

Watch out for those who say they are Fuji fans in a big way. Ask them specifically if they like X trans, the very direction of the company they say they love.

Now, if you want to be blown away, head over to Fliker and search groups for X trans, and get ready for tens of thousands of incredible shots. Search the XF 23mm, the XF 14, the 35, the 55-200 lenses. These thousands of photos clearly prove what a special too Fuji has created, and you have seen this for yourself in your own photos already.

It truly is an X trans universe, and I am proud to be a fanboy. It's okay to be a fanboy if your object of desire is the best.

Maybe a slight loss of sense of perspective here ?

I mean, I'm thoroughly satisfied with the xtrans sensor: the x pro 1 for me has become the digital equivalent of my Leica M6, since digital Leica prices are vastly out of my range.

The size-weight / IQ ratio of the x pro one is nothing short of stunning. But come on, I also get amazing results from my 5DIII. I also got to use a D800 a few times : can this camera also deliver in terms of IQ !

Fuji cameras are truly excellent, and with ergonomics I'm particularly fond of. But unique ?

In my opinion, uniqueness has more to do with what is in front of the camera and who is behind the camera, than the camera itself...

Oh yeah, very unique to me and many others. The colors ALONE make them unique to me and many. And yeah, somewhat overblown because it fun to toy with the X trans haters.

Not to dampen your enthusiasm here, but can you pick out X-Trans images in a blind test? I wasn't able to, and none of my very experienced friends who have tried were able to either. Particularly not when one runs every image through a Velvia simulator such as VSCO or DxO FilmPack. The only camera I can pick out is one based on a Foveon sensor (but of course only if viewed/printed such that resolution makes a difference).

 nixda's gear list:nixda's gear list
Fujifilm X-E1 Fujifilm XF 14mm F2.8 R Fujifilm XF 18-55mm F2.8-4 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 55-200mm F3.5-4.8 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 27mm F2.8
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Ger Horgan
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Re: XT1 - Truly Superior IQ -Inane thread
In reply to Photo-Wiz, 4 months ago

"I compared pictures of the GX7 with my XT1 with similar settings. In every case, the XT1 pictures were visibly superior. Better sharpness and better color rendition. My experience with the GX7 was that it has trouble taking truly sharp pictures.

-- hide signature --

Sorry I cannot take this guy seriously .. A simple question why did he buy a GX7 in the first place ?

...

http://www.dinglephoto.com

Gerry

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Ray Sachs
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Can you tell them apart? X-Trans and GX7 shots (and others)...
In reply to Photo-Wiz, 4 months ago

Here are a bunch of shots taken with a variety of cameras, including X-Trans, m43 (both GX7 and 1 or 2 EM1 shots because I didn't have the GX7 all that long), other APS, full frame, and even some from a small sensor camera. The exif is stripped out, the aspect ratios are applied randomly, and all images are uploaded with a long edge of 2048 pixels, small enough so that this doesn't come down to extreme pixel peeping, but large enough to fill a 27" monitor and to see any really notable differences in quality. And these are real world examples of how I shot 'em (all raw) and how I processed them for my taste. Your taste may be different - that's fine, but that shouldn't keep you from calling out the obvious superiority of the X-trans files and inferiority of the m43 files...

So pick 'em as you see 'em. And if you true believers get enough of 'em right, MAYBE I'll start taking your pronouncements of superiority seriously.

I should also say that I don't doubt for a MINUTE that you (and I) may bond with Fuji cameras in a way we find particularly appealing and we just qualitatively like the images they produce. I do - I've been on the Fuji bandwagon with only minor interruptions since the first batch of X100 shipments hit North American shores in early 2011. I just don't believe, based on EXTENSIVE experience, that the technical image quality from the X-Trans sensor is head and shoulders above anything else, as some of you seem to believe. I find it right mid-pack actually, which in today's environment is a VERY VERY GOOD PLACE to be!!! It's the lenses and the feel of the cameras that make me a Fuji loyalist - I love their primes and the shooting experience. X-trans doesn't really hurt or help in my case.

So, call 'em as you see 'em:

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-Ray

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We judge photographers by the photographs we see. We judge cameras by the photographs we miss - Haim Zamir
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/

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