XT1 - Truly Superior IQ

Started Mar 29, 2014 | Discussions
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nixda Senior Member • Posts: 3,695
Re: same here
2

guitarjeff wrote:

trueview wrote:

guitarjeff wrote:

Welcome Photo W. You got a wonderful camera. X trans photos simply have a unique look and feel that transcends the sum of it's parts (or charts). There are a few here who have a problem with X trans for whatever reasons. But like many, when you see the photos you perceive those unique qualities, a mixture of the colors and sharpness, the way it captures the actual environment. Some may not perceive it, others may perceive it and don't like it anyway.

Watch out for those who say they are Fuji fans in a big way. Ask them specifically if they like X trans, the very direction of the company they say they love.

Now, if you want to be blown away, head over to Fliker and search groups for X trans, and get ready for tens of thousands of incredible shots. Search the XF 23mm, the XF 14, the 35, the 55-200 lenses. These thousands of photos clearly prove what a special too Fuji has created, and you have seen this for yourself in your own photos already.

It truly is an X trans universe, and I am proud to be a fanboy. It's okay to be a fanboy if your object of desire is the best.

Maybe a slight loss of sense of perspective here ?

I mean, I'm thoroughly satisfied with the xtrans sensor: the x pro 1 for me has become the digital equivalent of my Leica M6, since digital Leica prices are vastly out of my range.

The size-weight / IQ ratio of the x pro one is nothing short of stunning. But come on, I also get amazing results from my 5DIII. I also got to use a D800 a few times : can this camera also deliver in terms of IQ !

Fuji cameras are truly excellent, and with ergonomics I'm particularly fond of. But unique ?

In my opinion, uniqueness has more to do with what is in front of the camera and who is behind the camera, than the camera itself...

Oh yeah, very unique to me and many others. The colors ALONE make them unique to me and many. And yeah, somewhat overblown because it fun to toy with the X trans haters.

Not to dampen your enthusiasm here, but can you pick out X-Trans images in a blind test? I wasn't able to, and none of my very experienced friends who have tried were able to either. Particularly not when one runs every image through a Velvia simulator such as VSCO or DxO FilmPack. The only camera I can pick out is one based on a Foveon sensor (but of course only if viewed/printed such that resolution makes a difference).

 nixda's gear list:nixda's gear list
Fujifilm X-E1 Fujifilm XF 14mm F2.8 R Fujifilm XF 18-55mm F2.8-4 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 55-200mm F3.5-4.8 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 27mm F2.8
Ger Horgan Regular Member • Posts: 255
Re: XT1 - Truly Superior IQ -Inane thread

"I compared pictures of the GX7 with my XT1 with similar settings. In every case, the XT1 pictures were visibly superior. Better sharpness and better color rendition. My experience with the GX7 was that it has trouble taking truly sharp pictures.

-- hide signature --

Sorry I cannot take this guy seriously .. A simple question why did he buy a GX7 in the first place ?

...

http://www.dinglephoto.com

Gerry

 Ger Horgan's gear list:Ger Horgan's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX1 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7 Olympus OM-D E-M10 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX8
Ray Sachs
Ray Sachs Forum Pro • Posts: 10,461
Can you tell them apart? X-Trans and GX7 shots (and others)...
10

Here are a bunch of shots taken with a variety of cameras, including X-Trans, m43 (both GX7 and 1 or 2 EM1 shots because I didn't have the GX7 all that long), other APS, full frame, and even some from a small sensor camera. The exif is stripped out, the aspect ratios are applied randomly, and all images are uploaded with a long edge of 2048 pixels, small enough so that this doesn't come down to extreme pixel peeping, but large enough to fill a 27" monitor and to see any really notable differences in quality. And these are real world examples of how I shot 'em (all raw) and how I processed them for my taste. Your taste may be different - that's fine, but that shouldn't keep you from calling out the obvious superiority of the X-trans files and inferiority of the m43 files...

So pick 'em as you see 'em. And if you true believers get enough of 'em right, MAYBE I'll start taking your pronouncements of superiority seriously.

I should also say that I don't doubt for a MINUTE that you (and I) may bond with Fuji cameras in a way we find particularly appealing and we just qualitatively like the images they produce. I do - I've been on the Fuji bandwagon with only minor interruptions since the first batch of X100 shipments hit North American shores in early 2011. I just don't believe, based on EXTENSIVE experience, that the technical image quality from the X-Trans sensor is head and shoulders above anything else, as some of you seem to believe. I find it right mid-pack actually, which in today's environment is a VERY VERY GOOD PLACE to be!!! It's the lenses and the feel of the cameras that make me a Fuji loyalist - I love their primes and the shooting experience. X-trans doesn't really hurt or help in my case.

So, call 'em as you see 'em:

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

-Ray

-- hide signature --

We judge photographers by the photographs we see. We judge cameras by the photographs we miss - Haim Zamir
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/

guitarjeff Senior Member • Posts: 1,129
Re: same here

nixda wrote:

guitarjeff wrote:

trueview wrote:

guitarjeff wrote:

Welcome Photo W. You got a wonderful camera. X trans photos simply have a unique look and feel that transcends the sum of it's parts (or charts). There are a few here who have a problem with X trans for whatever reasons. But like many, when you see the photos you perceive those unique qualities, a mixture of the colors and sharpness, the way it captures the actual environment. Some may not perceive it, others may perceive it and don't like it anyway.

Watch out for those who say they are Fuji fans in a big way. Ask them specifically if they like X trans, the very direction of the company they say they love.

Now, if you want to be blown away, head over to Fliker and search groups for X trans, and get ready for tens of thousands of incredible shots. Search the XF 23mm, the XF 14, the 35, the 55-200 lenses. These thousands of photos clearly prove what a special too Fuji has created, and you have seen this for yourself in your own photos already.

It truly is an X trans universe, and I am proud to be a fanboy. It's okay to be a fanboy if your object of desire is the best.

Maybe a slight loss of sense of perspective here ?

I mean, I'm thoroughly satisfied with the xtrans sensor: the x pro 1 for me has become the digital equivalent of my Leica M6, since digital Leica prices are vastly out of my range.

The size-weight / IQ ratio of the x pro one is nothing short of stunning. But come on, I also get amazing results from my 5DIII. I also got to use a D800 a few times : can this camera also deliver in terms of IQ !

Fuji cameras are truly excellent, and with ergonomics I'm particularly fond of. But unique ?

In my opinion, uniqueness has more to do with what is in front of the camera and who is behind the camera, than the camera itself...

Oh yeah, very unique to me and many others. The colors ALONE make them unique to me and many. And yeah, somewhat overblown because it fun to toy with the X trans haters.

Not to dampen your enthusiasm here, but can you pick out X-Trans images in a blind test? I wasn't able to, and none of my very experienced friends who have tried were able to either. Particularly not when one runs every image through a Velvia simulator such as VSCO or DxO FilmPack. The only camera I can pick out is one based on a Foveon sensor (but of course only if viewed/printed such that resolution makes a difference).

Don't need to.  Every photog does has his own eye and also alters the photos.  A better test would be, can you look at thousands of photos from X trans and another camera side by side and choose which group comes from X trans.  I think that when you see thousands of photos you begin to eliminate the individual photogs and you get a feel for what the system is apart from the individuals.

I learned this when searching info about buying lenses. I would go to the POTN lens sample threads and look at literally thousands of photos from that lens.  After a while you would begin to get a feel for the very core of what the lens is.

I must ask, why did you buy X trans?  You saw NOTHING unique in any way in the photos that was pleasing and you only purchased for other reasons?  Do you assume this is the same for everyone or just your own perceptions?  If you ask me to define what I see that is pleasing then to me you are asking me to define art, in a way.  Can there be ART or a pleasing creative feel in the way a camera renders photos?  Certainly we can agree that the Canon 85 1.2 has a unique way that it shows itself.  Is this not possible with a sensor, colors, electronic gain, type of noise and such?  Can there be nothing unique in the way that Fuji electronics from the sensor onwards shows itself?  Are you willing to say that not a single photog bought in to X trans because he really saw something that was unique in the way the x trans showed itself?

guitarjeff Senior Member • Posts: 1,129
Re: XT1 - Truly Superior IQ -Inane thread

Ger Horgan wrote:

"I compared pictures of the GX7 with my XT1 with similar settings. In every case, the XT1 pictures were visibly superior. Better sharpness and better color rendition. My experience with the GX7 was that it has trouble taking truly sharp pictures.

-- hide signature --

Sorry I cannot take this guy seriously .. A simple question why did he buy a GX7 in the first place ?

...

http://www.dinglephoto.com

Gerry

Good point Gerry.  So do you perceive or did you see something unique in the many X trans photos you must have looked at before you purchased?  Trying to figure out here if it's possible for there to be something pleasing and unique about the way Fuji X trans shows it colors or rendering possibly because of it's electronics and such.

Ray Sachs
Ray Sachs Forum Pro • Posts: 10,461
Re: XT1 - Truly Superior IQ -Inane thread
1

guitarjeff wrote:

Ger Horgan wrote:

"I compared pictures of the GX7 with my XT1 with similar settings. In every case, the XT1 pictures were visibly superior. Better sharpness and better color rendition. My experience with the GX7 was that it has trouble taking truly sharp pictures.

-- hide signature --

Sorry I cannot take this guy seriously .. A simple question why did he buy a GX7 in the first place ?

...

http://www.dinglephoto.com

Gerry

Good point Gerry. So do you perceive or did you see something unique in the many X trans photos you must have looked at before you purchased? Trying to figure out here if it's possible for there to be something pleasing and unique about the way Fuji X trans shows it colors or rendering possibly because of it's electronics and such.

Sure, it has it's characteristics, same as any other filter, array, processor combination. That's fine if that's all you're talking about.

It's the nonsense about (and I'm paraphrasing because I don't recall your precise language) 'it's OK to gloat when you have the best' or 'those who don't think it's the best just aren't artistic enough to see the differences' or just generally dissing everything that's NOT x-trans. X-trans is great. It's wonderful. So are several other sensor/array/processor combinations.

For some X-trans is the reason they got into Fuji gear, for others it's ONE reason among several, for other's it was DESPITE x-trans, and for still others it was reason enough NOT to go with Fuji. I love Fuji and I'm fine with x-trans, but I don't hold it above it's competitors - to me what makes Fuji REALLY special are the handling of the bodies and the great prime lenses. I also love their jpeg processing but I rarely shoot jpeg, so I hope Adobe gets it right when they add those film emulation profiles to Lightroom - I'd LOVE that...

-Ray
--------------------------------------
We judge photographers by the photographs we see. We judge cameras by the photographs we miss - Haim Zamir
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/

nixda Senior Member • Posts: 3,695
Re: same here
1

guitarjeff wrote:

nixda wrote:

guitarjeff wrote:

trueview wrote:

guitarjeff wrote:

Welcome Photo W. You got a wonderful camera. X trans photos simply have a unique look and feel that transcends the sum of it's parts (or charts). There are a few here who have a problem with X trans for whatever reasons. But like many, when you see the photos you perceive those unique qualities, a mixture of the colors and sharpness, the way it captures the actual environment. Some may not perceive it, others may perceive it and don't like it anyway.

Watch out for those who say they are Fuji fans in a big way. Ask them specifically if they like X trans, the very direction of the company they say they love.

Now, if you want to be blown away, head over to Fliker and search groups for X trans, and get ready for tens of thousands of incredible shots. Search the XF 23mm, the XF 14, the 35, the 55-200 lenses. These thousands of photos clearly prove what a special too Fuji has created, and you have seen this for yourself in your own photos already.

It truly is an X trans universe, and I am proud to be a fanboy. It's okay to be a fanboy if your object of desire is the best.

Maybe a slight loss of sense of perspective here ?

I mean, I'm thoroughly satisfied with the xtrans sensor: the x pro 1 for me has become the digital equivalent of my Leica M6, since digital Leica prices are vastly out of my range.

The size-weight / IQ ratio of the x pro one is nothing short of stunning. But come on, I also get amazing results from my 5DIII. I also got to use a D800 a few times : can this camera also deliver in terms of IQ !

Fuji cameras are truly excellent, and with ergonomics I'm particularly fond of. But unique ?

In my opinion, uniqueness has more to do with what is in front of the camera and who is behind the camera, than the camera itself...

Oh yeah, very unique to me and many others. The colors ALONE make them unique to me and many. And yeah, somewhat overblown because it fun to toy with the X trans haters.

Not to dampen your enthusiasm here, but can you pick out X-Trans images in a blind test? I wasn't able to, and none of my very experienced friends who have tried were able to either. Particularly not when one runs every image through a Velvia simulator such as VSCO or DxO FilmPack. The only camera I can pick out is one based on a Foveon sensor (but of course only if viewed/printed such that resolution makes a difference).

Don't need to. Every photog does has his own eye and also alters the photos. A better test would be, can you look at thousands of photos from X trans and another camera side by side and choose which group comes from X trans. I think that when you see thousands of photos you begin to eliminate the individual photogs and you get a feel for what the system is apart from the individuals.

You speak about your own enjoyment of the system. That's fair enough. But what is true for an ensemble of images should also be at least somewhat true for a single image: when someone sees a single photo hanging on a wall in your house, will that person really be able to recognize what camera was used (assuming that the person is familiar with lots of cameras)? If not, the camera used isn't really that important. IMO.

I learned this when searching info about buying lenses. I would go to the POTN lens sample threads and look at literally thousands of photos from that lens. After a while you would begin to get a feel for the very core of what the lens is.

I must ask, why did you buy X trans? You saw NOTHING unique in any way in the photos that was pleasing and you only purchased for other reasons? Do you assume this is the same for everyone or just your own perceptions? If you ask me to define what I see that is pleasing then to me you are asking me to define art, in a way. Can there be ART or a pleasing creative feel in the way a camera renders photos? Certainly we can agree that the Canon 85 1.2 has a unique way that it shows itself. Is this not possible with a sensor, colors, electronic gain, type of noise and such? Can there be nothing unique in the way that Fuji electronics from the sensor onwards shows itself? Are you willing to say that not a single photog bought in to X trans because he really saw something that was unique in the way the x trans showed itself?

I am not making such sweeping statements whatsoever, and I don't want to. I also don't want to speak for anyone else besides myself here. But I'd still be happy to answer why I personally bought an X-E1 plus a few lenses: for me it's currently the best balance between sensor size, camera/lens sizes and weight, IQ, and price.

Let me stress the word balance. I personally do not think any of the aspects that I listed, and that are important to me, are otherworldly in the X-Trans cameras, just overall quite good. There are cameras with larger sensors, smaller and lighter ones, with better IQ, and cheaper ones, but no system strikes the kind of balance that I value.

 nixda's gear list:nixda's gear list
Fujifilm X-E1 Fujifilm XF 14mm F2.8 R Fujifilm XF 18-55mm F2.8-4 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 55-200mm F3.5-4.8 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 27mm F2.8
alan brown Regular Member • Posts: 417
Re: Can you tell them apart? X-Trans and GX7 shots (and others)...
2

I completely agree with Ray.  I own both the xt1 and gx7 and love them both.  Amazing cameras and a testimony to how good cameras are in 2014.  I won't sell either in the foreseeable future.  Both do some things better than the other.

Pixel peeping might show an advantage to the xt1 but in my large prints I can't tell the difference.  Perhaps this is due to my post processing to exactly what I want.

I don't know why people are so determined to make small differences absolutely huge.

Just cameras.  Pick what works for you.

-- hide signature --

alan brown

guitarjeff Senior Member • Posts: 1,129
Re: Can you tell them apart? X-Trans and GX7 shots (and others)...

Ray Sachs wrote:

Here are a bunch of shots taken with a variety of cameras, including X-Trans, m43 (both GX7 and 1 or 2 EM1 shots because I didn't have the GX7 all that long), other APS, full frame, and even some from a small sensor camera. The exif is stripped out, the aspect ratios are applied randomly, and all images are uploaded with a long edge of 2048 pixels, small enough so that this doesn't come down to extreme pixel peeping, but large enough to fill a 27" monitor and to see any really notable differences in quality. And these are real world examples of how I shot 'em (all raw) and how I processed them for my taste. Your taste may be different - that's fine, but that shouldn't keep you from calling out the obvious superiority of the X-trans files and inferiority of the m43 files...

So pick 'em as you see 'em. And if you true believers get enough of 'em right, MAYBE I'll start taking your pronouncements of superiority seriously.

I should also say that I don't doubt for a MINUTE that you (and I) may bond with Fuji cameras in a way we find particularly appealing and we just qualitatively like the images they produce. I do - I've been on the Fuji bandwagon with only minor interruptions since the first batch of X100 shipments hit North American shores in early 2011. I just don't believe, based on EXTENSIVE experience, that the technical image quality from the X-Trans sensor is head and shoulders above anything else, as some of you seem to believe. I find it right mid-pack actually, which in today's environment is a VERY VERY GOOD PLACE to be!!! It's the lenses and the feel of the cameras that make me a Fuji loyalist - I love their primes and the shooting experience. X-trans doesn't really hurt or help in my case.

So, call 'em as you see 'em:

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

-Ray

-- hide signature --

We judge photographers by the photographs we see. We judge cameras by the photographs we miss - Haim Zamir
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/

Again, you are asking us to DEFINE art in a way.  This would be meaningful IF ALL ASPECTS OF photography were math with ZERO feel.  Let's go to the Flikre groups of say, the 5D3 and the X trans group, there is one that has 67,000 photos.  Show me hundreds from each, and I believe I could tell you which is which.  So again the simple question--Are you saying there can be NOTHING unique about the way a sensor and it's electronics/gain/noise/colors and such shows itself?  That's the more fundamental question than posting a half dozen pics and asking people which is X trans.

rmxa Junior Member • Posts: 44
Re: Can you tell them apart? X-Trans and GX7 shots (and others)...
2

The person behind and the subject in front of the camera DO matter the most. Great photos.

guitarjeff Senior Member • Posts: 1,129
Re: Can you tell them apart? X-Trans and GX7 shots (and others)...

guitarjeff wrote:

Ray Sachs wrote:

Here are a bunch of shots taken with a variety of cameras, including X-Trans, m43 (both GX7 and 1 or 2 EM1 shots because I didn't have the GX7 all that long), other APS, full frame, and even some from a small sensor camera. The exif is stripped out, the aspect ratios are applied randomly, and all images are uploaded with a long edge of 2048 pixels, small enough so that this doesn't come down to extreme pixel peeping, but large enough to fill a 27" monitor and to see any really notable differences in quality. And these are real world examples of how I shot 'em (all raw) and how I processed them for my taste. Your taste may be different - that's fine, but that shouldn't keep you from calling out the obvious superiority of the X-trans files and inferiority of the m43 files...

So pick 'em as you see 'em. And if you true believers get enough of 'em right, MAYBE I'll start taking your pronouncements of superiority seriously.

I should also say that I don't doubt for a MINUTE that you (and I) may bond with Fuji cameras in a way we find particularly appealing and we just qualitatively like the images they produce. I do - I've been on the Fuji bandwagon with only minor interruptions since the first batch of X100 shipments hit North American shores in early 2011. I just don't believe, based on EXTENSIVE experience, that the technical image quality from the X-Trans sensor is head and shoulders above anything else, as some of you seem to believe. I find it right mid-pack actually, which in today's environment is a VERY VERY GOOD PLACE to be!!! It's the lenses and the feel of the cameras that make me a Fuji loyalist - I love their primes and the shooting experience. X-trans doesn't really hurt or help in my case.

So, call 'em as you see 'em:

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

-Ray

-- hide signature --

We judge photographers by the photographs we see. We judge cameras by the photographs we miss - Haim Zamir
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/

Again, you are asking us to DEFINE art in a way. This would be meaningful IF ALL ASPECTS OF photography were math with ZERO feel. Let's go to the Flikre groups of say, the 5D3 and the X trans group, there is one that has 67,000 photos. Show me hundreds from each, and I believe I could tell you which is which. So again the simple question--Are you saying there can be NOTHING unique about the way a sensor and it's electronics/gain/noise/colors and such shows itself? That's the more fundamental question than posting a half dozen pics and asking people which is X trans.

Also, the mere fact that these are all different lighting and subjects with different distances and such really hurts this experiment.  I can take a photo of a dead, brown winter time forest and it would be pretty tough to show off Fuji colors, know what I mean?

Ray Sachs
Ray Sachs Forum Pro • Posts: 10,461
Re: Can you tell them apart? X-Trans and GX7 shots (and others)...
4

guitarjeff wrote:

Again, you are asking us to DEFINE art in a way.

No I'm not. I'm asking those who believe the X-trans sensors render in a totally unique and superior way to back that up.

This would be meaningful IF ALL ASPECTS OF photography were math with ZERO feel. Let's go to the Flikre groups of say, the 5D3 and the X trans group, there is one that has 67,000 photos. Show me hundreds from each, and I believe I could tell you which is which.

But what's the use of that if YOU or I or anyone else can produce photos that look more or less indistinguishable (based on camera gear) from a variety of gear, INCLUDING the obviously superior X-Trans and obviously inferior m43?

So again the simple question--Are you saying there can be NOTHING unique about the way a sensor and it's electronics/gain/noise/colors and such shows itself? That's the more fundamental question than posting a half dozen pics and asking people which is X trans.

No, I'm not saying that there's NOTHING unique about the way Fuji goes about pulling images off of a sensor. I'm just saying it's RELATIVELY unimportant next to a lot of other factors. That I can make my photos look the way I want them to look with X-Trans or without. And so could you if you wanted to.

I love Fuji gear. I'm neither particularly positive nor negative toward X-Trans - it didn't cause me to buy Fuji (it sort of did with the X-Pro but that was before I understood what Fuji was doing with ISO claims) and it definitely didn't prevent me from buying Fuji. I love their bodies and lenses and the sensors are right there in the pack of great sensors today. I do really love their jpegs but I rarely shoot jpegs because they don't hold up under processing the way raw files do.

And I put up 20 btw. Thanks for looking... 

-Ray
--------------------------------------
We judge photographers by the photographs we see. We judge cameras by the photographs we miss - Haim Zamir
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/

guitarjeff Senior Member • Posts: 1,129
Re: XT1 - Truly Superior IQ -Inane thread
1

Ray Sachs wrote:

guitarjeff wrote:

Ger Horgan wrote:

"I compared pictures of the GX7 with my XT1 with similar settings. In every case, the XT1 pictures were visibly superior. Better sharpness and better color rendition. My experience with the GX7 was that it has trouble taking truly sharp pictures.

-- hide signature --

Sorry I cannot take this guy seriously .. A simple question why did he buy a GX7 in the first place ?

...

http://www.dinglephoto.com

Gerry

Good point Gerry. So do you perceive or did you see something unique in the many X trans photos you must have looked at before you purchased? Trying to figure out here if it's possible for there to be something pleasing and unique about the way Fuji X trans shows it colors or rendering possibly because of it's electronics and such.

Sure, it has it's characteristics, same as any other filter, array, processor combination. That's fine if that's all you're talking about.

It's the nonsense about (and I'm paraphrasing because I don't recall your precise language) 'it's OK to gloat when you have the best' or 'those who don't think it's the best just aren't artistic enough to see the differences' or just generally dissing everything that's NOT x-trans. X-trans is great. It's wonderful. So are several other sensor/array/processor combinations.

For some X-trans is the reason they got into Fuji gear, for others it's ONE reason among several, for other's it was DESPITE x-trans, and for still others it was reason enough NOT to go with Fuji. I love Fuji and I'm fine with x-trans, but I don't hold it above it's competitors - to me what makes Fuji REALLY special are the handling of the bodies and the great prime lenses. I also love their jpeg processing but I rarely shoot jpeg, so I hope Adobe gets it right when they add those film emulation profiles to Lightroom - I'd LOVE that...

-Ray
--------------------------------------
We judge photographers by the photographs we see. We judge cameras by the photographs we miss - Haim Zamir
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/

If that'/s what's bothering you then you should know that these types of remarks are COMPLETELY aimed at the hater trolls who hang out in this forum for the purpose of trashing x trans.  Of course I know it is not an X trans universe, this is to tweak the haters and I will continue to do that as long as they are here for their twisted reasons.

Ray Sachs
Ray Sachs Forum Pro • Posts: 10,461
Re: Can you tell them apart? X-Trans and GX7 shots (and others)...

guitarjeff wrote:

Also, the mere fact that these are all different lighting and subjects with different distances and such really hurts this experiment. I can take a photo of a dead, brown winter time forest and it would be pretty tough to show off Fuji colors, know what I mean?

The point is it's not an experiment. It's real world actual photography that I've been doing over the past year or so. Lots of them in very similar circumstances and lighting, but yes, covering a variety of conditions. If the differences in IQ between cameras really mattered, this is exactly where you'd be able to see it. If you can only see it pixel peeping test photos, does it matter and can you really say that one is meaningfully better?

I could do a whole other series of low light shots that would also not show which is scientifically better in a test lab but would show that everything from m43 to full frame can produce really nice low light photos - the small sensor shots wouldn't hold up for the most part here, but everything else would.

-Ray
--------------------------------------
We judge photographers by the photographs we see. We judge cameras by the photographs we miss - Haim Zamir
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/

alan brown Regular Member • Posts: 417
Re: Can you tell them apart? X-Trans and GX7 shots (and others)...

Your eye must be very discerning.  I'm not doubting you can do it some of the time, but always?

Why does it matter that you can tell a 5d from a fuji on a computer screen?  Are you saying that the canon images are always better?  Or vice versa?  They're all great tools, but always in service to your vision.

-- hide signature --

alan brown

trueview Regular Member • Posts: 180
Re: same here
2

guitarjeff wrote:

trueview wrote:

guitarjeff wrote:

Welcome Photo W. You got a wonderful camera. X trans photos simply have a unique look and feel that transcends the sum of it's parts (or charts). There are a few here who have a problem with X trans for whatever reasons. But like many, when you see the photos you perceive those unique qualities, a mixture of the colors and sharpness, the way it captures the actual environment. Some may not perceive it, others may perceive it and don't like it anyway.

Watch out for those who say they are Fuji fans in a big way. Ask them specifically if they like X trans, the very direction of the company they say they love.

Now, if you want to be blown away, head over to Fliker and search groups for X trans, and get ready for tens of thousands of incredible shots. Search the XF 23mm, the XF 14, the 35, the 55-200 lenses. These thousands of photos clearly prove what a special too Fuji has created, and you have seen this for yourself in your own photos already.

It truly is an X trans universe, and I am proud to be a fanboy. It's okay to be a fanboy if your object of desire is the best.

Maybe a slight loss of sense of perspective here ?

I mean, I'm thoroughly satisfied with the xtrans sensor: the x pro 1 for me has become the digital equivalent of my Leica M6, since digital Leica prices are vastly out of my range.

The size-weight / IQ ratio of the x pro one is nothing short of stunning. But come on, I also get amazing results from my 5DIII. I also got to use a D800 a few times : can this camera also deliver in terms of IQ !

Fuji cameras are truly excellent, and with ergonomics I'm particularly fond of. But unique ?

In my opinion, uniqueness has more to do with what is in front of the camera and who is behind the camera, than the camera itself...

Oh yeah, very unique to me and many others. The colors ALONE make them unique to me and many. And yeah, somewhat overblown because it fun to toy with the X trans haters.

me ? A xtrans hater ? I must have misunderstood the definition of the word hate !

As for colors, sorry to disagree. In my opinion, the canon 5d3 has slightly better awb than the fuji. Of course, this is easily equalized in post, but the fact remains that in my eyes the canon is a bit better in out of camera color rendition.

and at high ISO, the canon wins hands down, both for IQ and AF. But that should be expected: larger sensor, and not the same price either !

Now when it comes to street photgraphy, the fuji is miles ahead, with its loads of IQ in a small inconspicuous package. Also, I prefer the x pro 1 traditional ergonomics.

And again cameras are not unique : photographers are, I mean, a very few of them

maljo@inreach.com Veteran Member • Posts: 7,035
Take a look at the DPR comparison images...

...there is very little or no difference.

 maljo@inreach.com's gear list:maljo@inreach.com's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark III Nikon AF-S Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED
guitarjeff Senior Member • Posts: 1,129
Re: Can you tell them apart? X-Trans and GX7 shots (and others)...
2

Ray Sachs wrote:

guitarjeff wrote:

Again, you are asking us to DEFINE art in a way.

No I'm not. I'm asking those who believe the X-trans sensors render in a totally unique and superior way to back that up.

This would be meaningful IF ALL ASPECTS OF photography were math with ZERO feel. Let's go to the Flikre groups of say, the 5D3 and the X trans group, there is one that has 67,000 photos. Show me hundreds from each, and I believe I could tell you which is which.

But what's the use of that if YOU or I or anyone else can produce photos that look more or less indistinguishable (based on camera gear) from a variety of gear, INCLUDING the obviously superior X-Trans and obviously inferior m43?

So again the simple question--Are you saying there can be NOTHING unique about the way a sensor and it's electronics/gain/noise/colors and such shows itself? That's the more fundamental question than posting a half dozen pics and asking people which is X trans.

No, I'm not saying that there's NOTHING unique about the way Fuji goes about pulling images off of a sensor. I'm just saying it's RELATIVELY unimportant next to a lot of other factors. That I can make my photos look the way I want them to look with X-Trans or without. And so could you if you wanted to.

I love Fuji gear. I'm neither particularly positive nor negative toward X-Trans - it didn't cause me to buy Fuji (it sort of did with the X-Pro but that was before I understood what Fuji was doing with ISO claims) and it definitely didn't prevent me from buying Fuji. I love their bodies and lenses and the sensors are right there in the pack of great sensors today. I do really love their jpegs but I rarely shoot jpegs because they don't hold up under processing the way raw files do.

And I put up 20 btw. Thanks for looking...

-Ray
--------------------------------------
We judge photographers by the photographs we see. We judge cameras by the photographs we miss - Haim Zamir
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/

And I am saying that is NOT UNIMPORTANT to man people who bought in to X trans.  You seem to be thinking that many of us are saying that other cameras can't take pleasing photos.  I am not saying this.  I think we agree that X trans may have a unique way of showing itself, and to many that is important and is a reason and maybe the main reason they bought the system.

As far as me tweaking and fighting back against these x trans hater/trolls that constantly look to bash it, that's the way I do things and I apologize if you took it the wrong way. But I will continue with these statements such as "it's an x trans universe" and "I am proud to be a fanboy" (which I am) as long as they bash x trans.

John Carson Veteran Member • Posts: 4,206
Re: Can you tell them apart? X-Trans and GX7 shots (and others)...
3

Ray Sachs wrote:

Here are a bunch of shots taken with a variety of cameras, including X-Trans, m43 (both GX7 and 1 or 2 EM1 shots because I didn't have the GX7 all that long), other APS, full frame, and even some from a small sensor camera. The exif is stripped out, the aspect ratios are applied randomly, and all images are uploaded with a long edge of 2048 pixels, small enough so that this doesn't come down to extreme pixel peeping, but large enough to fill a 27" monitor and to see any really notable differences in quality. And these are real world examples of how I shot 'em (all raw) and how I processed them for my taste. Your taste may be different - that's fine, but that shouldn't keep you from calling out the obvious superiority of the X-trans files and inferiority of the m43 files...

By the logic of your argument, full frame isn't clearly superior to a small sensor camera.

Random photographs of a variety of subjects under a variety of conditions presented at a variety of sizes aren't a meaningful test of the relative abilities of different cameras. For a meaningful test, you need to shoot the same subject under the same conditions.

What your samples establish is that you can get a nice looking photo from a wide variety of equipment. Indeed you can, but controlled comparisons under a range of conditions, including demanding conditions, will permit many cameras to be distinguished.

-- hide signature --

john carson

 John Carson's gear list:John Carson's gear list
Fujifilm X-E2 Fujifilm XF 18-55mm F2.8-4 R LM OIS Fujifilm XF 55-200mm F3.5-4.8 R LM OIS
Ray Sachs
Ray Sachs Forum Pro • Posts: 10,461
Re: XT1 - Truly Superior IQ -Inane thread

guitarjeff wrote:

If that'/s what's bothering you then you should know that these types of remarks are COMPLETELY aimed at the hater trolls who hang out in this forum for the purpose of trashing x trans. Of course I know it is not an X trans universe, this is to tweak the haters and I will continue to do that as long as they are here for their twisted reasons.

I tend to assume that if someone writes or says something (unless the sarcasm is really obvious), that it's what they mean. I will try to remember from here on out that when you say over the top things like some of those that your intention is merely sarcasm and I'll stay out of it. I try to stay out of personal pi$$ing matches online anyway but I do sometimes try to jump in on the content. I probably shouldn't...

-Ray
--------------------------------------
We judge photographers by the photographs we see. We judge cameras by the photographs we miss - Haim Zamir
http://www.flickr.com/photos/20889767@N05/

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