2/3/5 axis IBIS and Stops advantage

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superstar905
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2/3/5 axis IBIS and Stops advantage
8 months ago

I currently have an EPL5 and have been wondering if the 3 axis EM10 or 5 axis EM5 would give me a better f-stop advantage than my 2 axis EPL5 with non stabilized lenses?

I like the 12-40 for convenience but at 2.8 it may not be good enough for indoor family photo's (not to mention its size is prohibitive, but thats a different subject) unless the different levels of stabilization can make up the difference.  Comparing to my 12 f2 and 45 f1.8 as a reference point.   If I could get that in one lens then it might be worth ditching those primes in favour of the 12-40.

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Anders W
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Re: 2/3/5 axis IBIS and Stops advantage
In reply to superstar905, 8 months ago

superstar905 wrote:

I currently have an EPL5 and have been wondering if the 3 axis EM10 or 5 axis EM5 would give me a better f-stop advantage than my 2 axis EPL5 with non stabilized lenses?

Yes. There's a pretty significant difference between the new IBIS available on the OM-Ds & E-P5 and the old one. The difference between the 3-axis version of the E-M10 and the 5-axis version is of less importance. The two axes (types of camera shake) lost between the 5- and 3-axis versions (vertical and horizontal shift) are primarily of importance in "macro" shooting. In other cases, they don't matter much.

I like the 12-40 for convenience but at 2.8 it may not be good enough for indoor family photo's (not to mention its size is prohibitive, but thats a different subject) unless the different levels of stabilization can make up the difference. Comparing to my 12 f2 and 45 f1.8 as a reference point. If I could get that in one lens then it might be worth ditching those primes in favour of the 12-40.

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tomtom50
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Re: 2/3/5 axis IBIS and Stops advantage
In reply to superstar905, 8 months ago

superstar905 wrote:

I currently have an EPL5 and have been wondering if the 3 axis EM10 or 5 axis EM5 would give me a better f-stop advantage than my 2 axis EPL5 with non stabilized lenses?

I like the 12-40 for convenience but at 2.8 it may not be good enough for indoor family photo's (not to mention its size is prohibitive, but thats a different subject) unless the different levels of stabilization can make up the difference. Comparing to my 12 f2 and 45 f1.8 as a reference point. If I could get that in one lens then it might be worth ditching those primes in favour of the 12-40.

You pretty much need to stay at 1/60 or faster to take candids of people. Unless the pictures are posed people move to much and IS won't help. The 17mm f1.8 or 20mm f1.7 might be the best way to go even if you end up cropping sometimes.

If it is in your own house a good trick is to put brighter bulbs in your fixtures. Use 3500K (bright white) CFL's, maybe add a few floor & table lamps, and your house will still seem normal but will be much more photo-friendly.

Daylight CFL's sound good but actually look very blue. Bright white looks good and makes a big difference for white balance and good color. Warm white just does not have enough blue and gives poorer results in photos even if you shoot RAW. The blue channel is over-amplified.

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honeyiscool
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Re: 2/3/5 axis IBIS and Stops advantage
In reply to superstar905, 8 months ago

superstar905 wrote:

I currently have an EPL5 and have been wondering if the 3 axis EM10 or 5 axis EM5 would give me a better f-stop advantage than my 2 axis EPL5 with non stabilized lenses?

I like the 12-40 for convenience but at 2.8 it may not be good enough for indoor family photo's (not to mention its size is prohibitive, but thats a different subject) unless the different levels of stabilization can make up the difference. Comparing to my 12 f2 and 45 f1.8 as a reference point. If I could get that in one lens then it might be worth ditching those primes in favour of the 12-40.

OK, here's the thing. If you have a wide angle for people shots, the whole point is to get everyone in focus. So you might need to stop down the 12mm anyway, which means 12-40mm should be comfortably able to replace your 12mm. Your 12-40mm is not going to replace the 45mm f/1.8 in any world.

I've found that f/2.8 is not stunning but as long as you're willing to push your ISO to 6400, you should be able to get 1/60 or faster in most lighting conditions, and if you use a flash now and then, you should be fine. You should just ignore the noise when people say you need to use a certain shutter speed for certain things. Maybe those things apply for when you're submitting pictures for Sports Illustrated, but you're just taking family snaps.

I use a 12-35mm quite a lot for indoor people shots in extremely poor lighting. It does quite well. Plus, if you're concerned about stabilization, remember 12-35mm has OIS, and also, you can often find it for less than $900.

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superstar905
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Re: 2/3/5 axis IBIS and Stops advantage
In reply to tomtom50, 8 months ago

I suppose you are talking about if I used the 12-40 with the EPL5 that the 2 axis would mean I would need to keep the shutter speed at 1/60 or faster, but what if I had the 3 axis with the EM10, or 5 axis with the EM5?  Would using the 12-40 on those cameras give a greater fstop advantage than my EPL5?

tomtom50 wrote:

superstar905 wrote:

I currently have an EPL5 and have been wondering if the 3 axis EM10 or 5 axis EM5 would give me a better f-stop advantage than my 2 axis EPL5 with non stabilized lenses?

I like the 12-40 for convenience but at 2.8 it may not be good enough for indoor family photo's (not to mention its size is prohibitive, but thats a different subject) unless the different levels of stabilization can make up the difference. Comparing to my 12 f2 and 45 f1.8 as a reference point. If I could get that in one lens then it might be worth ditching those primes in favour of the 12-40.

You pretty much need to stay at 1/60 or faster to take candids of people. Unless the pictures are posed people move to much and IS won't help. The 17mm f1.8 or 20mm f1.7 might be the best way to go even if you end up cropping sometimes.

If it is in your own house a good trick is to put brighter bulbs in your fixtures. Use 3500K (bright white) CFL's, maybe add a few floor & table lamps, and your house will still seem normal but will be much more photo-friendly.

Daylight CFL's sound good but actually look very blue. Bright white looks good and makes a big difference for white balance and good color. Warm white just does not have enough blue and gives poorer results in photos even if you shoot RAW. The blue channel is over-amplified.

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superstar905
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Re: 2/3/5 axis IBIS and Stops advantage
In reply to honeyiscool, 8 months ago

Thanks.   Now, does having 3 or 5 axis IBIS make a difference over 2 axis IBIS in gaining an FStop advantage?

I actually usually shoot wide open indoors with family shots and find wide open I usually have everyone in focus if the photo is everyone lined up together for the picture, only when people are at different distances do I have to stop down, but I get your point.  I like the creativity flexibility with having a larger aperture.

I've looked at the 12-35 but would rather keep with Oly lenses for my Oly body..

honeyiscool wrote:

superstar905 wrote:

I currently have an EPL5 and have been wondering if the 3 axis EM10 or 5 axis EM5 would give me a better f-stop advantage than my 2 axis EPL5 with non stabilized lenses?

I like the 12-40 for convenience but at 2.8 it may not be good enough for indoor family photo's (not to mention its size is prohibitive, but thats a different subject) unless the different levels of stabilization can make up the difference. Comparing to my 12 f2 and 45 f1.8 as a reference point. If I could get that in one lens then it might be worth ditching those primes in favour of the 12-40.

OK, here's the thing. If you have a wide angle for people shots, the whole point is to get everyone in focus. So you might need to stop down the 12mm anyway, which means 12-40mm should be comfortably able to replace your 12mm. Your 12-40mm is not going to replace the 45mm f/1.8 in any world.

I've found that f/2.8 is not stunning but as long as you're willing to push your ISO to 6400, you should be able to get 1/60 or faster in most lighting conditions, and if you use a flash now and then, you should be fine. You should just ignore the noise when people say you need to use a certain shutter speed for certain things. Maybe those things apply for when you're submitting pictures for Sports Illustrated, but you're just taking family snaps.

I use a 12-35mm quite a lot for indoor people shots in extremely poor lighting. It does quite well. Plus, if you're concerned about stabilization, remember 12-35mm has OIS, and also, you can often find it for less than $900.

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petersolymosi
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Re: 2/3/5 axis IBIS and Stops advantage
In reply to superstar905, 8 months ago

This is definitely a subjective review as I have both the E-PL5 and the E-M10 and have not done scientific testing. I find the E-M10 to have slightly better image stabilization. With the E-M10 the image almost seems to hang there like Michael Jordan mid-flight until you finally snap the shutter. It seems like it would take a lot of shake to actually affect the photo.

With the E-PL5 I don't notice the image stabilizer at work but I have been able to get shutter speeds down to 1/15 sec while maintaining a crisp photo. Both seem to work, but I would have to say the E-M10 is a bit more obvious while at work and probably does a bit better job.

Pete

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honeyiscool
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Re: 2/3/5 axis IBIS and Stops advantage
In reply to superstar905, 8 months ago

superstar905 wrote:

Thanks. Now, does having 3 or 5 axis IBIS make a difference over 2 axis IBIS in gaining an FStop advantage?

I actually usually shoot wide open indoors with family shots and find wide open I usually have everyone in focus if the photo is everyone lined up together for the picture, only when people are at different distances do I have to stop down, but I get your point. I like the creativity flexibility with having a larger aperture.

I've looked at the 12-35 but would rather keep with Oly lenses for my Oly body..

Honestly, I don't notice much of a difference in stills, especially at the shutter speeds that are useful for people photography. It's not really a good idea to go below 1/10, even with stabilization. People can't hold still all that long. I do notice the difference in stabilization in video, but unless I'm walking around myself, I prefer OIS over 5-axis IBIS.

I'm curious why you want Oly lenses for Oly cameras. After all, one of the best things about the M43 platform is that you can mix and match between two different manufacturers. Any complaints of incompatibility tend to come from older generation bodies. The other thing about the 12-35 is that it's a smidge smaller and lighter than the 12-40.

http://camerasize.com/compact/#382.91,382.336,382.412,ha,t

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superstar905
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Re: 2/3/5 axis IBIS and Stops advantage
In reply to honeyiscool, 8 months ago

superstar905 wrote:

Thanks. Now, does having 3 or 5 axis IBIS make a difference over 2 axis IBIS in gaining an FStop advantage?

I actually usually shoot wide open indoors with family shots and find wide open I usually have everyone in focus if the photo is everyone lined up together for the picture, only when people are at different distances do I have to stop down, but I get your point. I like the creativity flexibility with having a larger aperture.

I've looked at the 12-35 but would rather keep with Oly lenses for my Oly body..

Honestly, I don't notice much of a difference in stills, especially at the shutter speeds that are useful for people photography. It's not really a good idea to go below 1/10, even with stabilization. People can't hold still all that long. I do notice the difference in stabilization in video, but unless I'm walking around myself, I prefer OIS over 5-axis IBIS.

I'm curious why you want Oly lenses for Oly cameras. After all, one of the best things about the M43 platform is that you can mix and match between two different manufacturers. Any complaints of incompatibility tend to come from older generation bodies. The other thing about the 12-35 is that it's a smidge smaller and lighter than the 12-40.

http://camerasize.com/compact/#382.91,382.336,382.412,ha,t

only reason was I am a jpeg shooter and figured the oly wouldn't correct CA on photos using those lenses. I hate spending time in post though I know you can correct for this

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tomtom50
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Re: 2/3/5 axis IBIS and Stops advantage
In reply to superstar905, 8 months ago

superstar905 wrote:

I suppose you are talking about if I used the 12-40 with the EPL5 that the 2 axis would mean I would need to keep the shutter speed at 1/60 or faster, but what if I had the 3 axis with the EM10, or 5 axis with the EM5? Would using the 12-40 on those cameras give a greater fstop advantage than my EPL5?

tomtom50 wrote:

superstar905 wrote:

I currently have an EPL5 and have been wondering if the 3 axis EM10 or 5 axis EM5 would give me a better f-stop advantage than my 2 axis EPL5 with non stabilized lenses?

I like the 12-40 for convenience but at 2.8 it may not be good enough for indoor family photo's (not to mention its size is prohibitive, but thats a different subject) unless the different levels of stabilization can make up the difference. Comparing to my 12 f2 and 45 f1.8 as a reference point. If I could get that in one lens then it might be worth ditching those primes in favour of the 12-40.

You pretty much need to stay at 1/60 or faster to take candids of people. Unless the pictures are posed people move to much and IS won't help. The 17mm f1.8 or 20mm f1.7 might be the best way to go even if you end up cropping sometimes.

If it is in your own house a good trick is to put brighter bulbs in your fixtures. Use 3500K (bright white) CFL's, maybe add a few floor & table lamps, and your house will still seem normal but will be much more photo-friendly.

Daylight CFL's sound good but actually look very blue. Bright white looks good and makes a big difference for white balance and good color. Warm white just does not have enough blue and gives poorer results in photos even if you shoot RAW. The blue channel is over-amplified.

What I mean is that people move fast enough to require 1/60 unless they are intentionally posing. Once you are at 1/60 either IS system is good enough. In short, if your goal is candid shots of people IS is not the solution.

IS is great with still subjects. Non-posing people? Not so much.

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Jim Salvas
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Small bounce flash beats both IBIS and fast lenses
In reply to superstar905, 8 months ago

As long as you're not blasting directly into their eyes, people don't mind a small bounce flash. You will freeze action with almost any lens. Plus, you will have better lighting than available in most homes, where the lights are placed to make the furniture look good.

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honeyiscool
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Re: 2/3/5 axis IBIS and Stops advantage
In reply to superstar905, 8 months ago

superstar905 wrote:
only reason was I am a jpeg shooter and figured the oly wouldn't correct CA on photos using those lenses. I hate spending time in post though I know you can correct for this

With this much talk of low light capability, I would think the last thing you have to worry about is chromatic aberration.

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superstar905
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Re: 2/3/5 axis IBIS and Stops advantage
In reply to honeyiscool, 8 months ago

superstar905 wrote:
only reason was I am a jpeg shooter and figured the oly wouldn't correct CA on photos using those lenses. I hate spending time in post though I know you can correct for this

With this much talk of low light capability, I would think the last thing you have to worry about is chromatic aberration.

low light is one aspect specific to my question, but other uses include landscapes, etc. that comment was simply reaponding to why I would srick to Oly lenses rather than consider the 12-35 offering from panasonic.

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Guy Parsons
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Re: 2/3/5 axis IBIS and Stops advantage
In reply to superstar905, 8 months ago

superstar905 wrote:

I currently have an EPL5 and have been wondering if the 3 axis EM10 or 5 axis EM5 would give me a better f-stop advantage than my 2 axis EPL5 with non stabilized lenses?

I like the 12-40 for convenience but at 2.8 it may not be good enough for indoor family photo's (not to mention its size is prohibitive, but thats a different subject) unless the different levels of stabilization can make up the difference. Comparing to my 12 f2 and 45 f1.8 as a reference point. If I could get that in one lens then it might be worth ditching those primes in favour of the 12-40.

Without reading all the replies....

The "prohibitive size" of the 12-40mm on my E-PL5 gives me a nice chunky handful that is heavy enough to help combat shake and I find that I can shoot at slower speeds with it. I prefer not to use stabilisation if I can get away without it.

The E-PL5 IBIS adds about 3 stops in my case but that in a bit pointless with people in the frame indoors as the damned things move a lot and faster shutter speeds are needed, more like 1/125 sec for normal adults, 1/250 for kids and 1/500 or 1/1000 for kids fed sugar.

The only sensible way indoors is flash bounced off the ceiling and I have had success with the little FL-300R in bounce (it's my carry everywhere flash) or better the FL-36R (FL-600R now) for bigger rooms or higher ceilings. Faster shutter speeds are needed to help reduce the ambient and subject motion blur illuminated by the ambient light.

To try and make the lighting more interesting then the RC slave mode allows you to place a slave or two around the room to maybe deliver more interesting side light as well as the bounce off the ceiling. It all depends on what situation you are trying to capture.

Using the usual available dim room lights that feature the furniture and not the people then results will be questionable quality even with f/1.0 lenses, particularly the shallow depth of field will cause more problems then.

So indoors stabilisation is not the answer but imaginative flash use is.

Looks chunky, but for me handles very nicely indeed....

My current carry everywhere pair, in a proper shoulder bag of course.

Regards.... Guy

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markintosh13
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Re: 2/3/5 axis IBIS and Stops advantage
In reply to superstar905, 8 months ago

superstar905 wrote:

I currently have an EPL5 and have been wondering if the 3 axis EM10 or 5 axis EM5 would give me a better f-stop advantage than my 2 axis EPL5 with non stabilized lenses?

I like the 12-40 for convenience but at 2.8 it may not be good enough for indoor family photo's (not to mention its size is prohibitive, but thats a different subject) unless the different levels of stabilization can make up the difference. Comparing to my 12 f2 and 45 f1.8 as a reference point. If I could get that in one lens then it might be worth ditching those primes in favour of the 12-40.

IBIS variants are not the solution you seek. You'll end up with nice photos of stationary things - like furniture - and subject motion blur on all the people.

For indoor family photos, you might occasionally want sub f/2.8 - but I do find f/2.8 to be a pretty good place for reasonable depth of field. But even then you may not have enough light.

But the real solution you seek is a boring big old bounce flash. Bounce it up. Bounce it up and back. Bounce it to the side. Generate lots of nice diffuse light.

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