Is the Panny 20mm f/1.7 slow to focus on the GX7?

Started 4 months ago | Questions
rhlpetrus
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Is the Panny 20mm f/1.7 slow to focus on the GX7?
4 months ago

I read that the 20mm can be slow to focus, even on the newer bodies like the GX7, compared to the newer zooms and primes. Is that correct? Is the one being sold as a kit with the GX7 the original one or has it been updated?

Thanks for replies.

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Gunnlaugur Gudmundsson
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Re: Is the Panny 20mm f/1.7 slow to focus on the GX7?
In reply to rhlpetrus, 4 months ago

Not my copy....

I had the old 20 and it was slow on the EP3 and the EM5 ...

so comparing the 20 f/1.7 ll on the GX7 no issues, the focus is fast (it may be a bit slower than some other lenses, but I never notice)....

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rhlpetrus
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Re: Is the Panny 20mm f/1.7 slow to focus on the GX7?
In reply to Gunnlaugur Gudmundsson, 4 months ago

Gunnlaugur Gudmundsson wrote:

Not my copy....

I had the old 20 and it was slow on the EP3 and the EM5 ...

so comparing the 20 f/1.7 ll on the GX7 no issues, the focus is fast (it may be a bit slower than some other lenses, but I never notice)....

So the current prime sold as a kit is a newer version, correct? Sorry for my ignorance re m43 lens lineups, it can get overwhelming for an outsider looking for info.

Thanks for the feedback.

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Gunnlaugur Gudmundsson
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Re: Is the Panny 20mm f/1.7 slow to focus on the GX7?
In reply to rhlpetrus, 4 months ago

Yes it is a new newer version, but the changes are only cosmetic (all black / all silver version also I think), the performance is supposed to be the same ...

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Ken Strain
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Re: Is the Panny 20mm f/1.7 slow to focus on the GX7?
In reply to Gunnlaugur Gudmundsson, 4 months ago

Gunnlaugur Gudmundsson wrote:

Yes it is a new newer version, but the changes are only cosmetic (all black / all silver version also I think), the performance is supposed to be the same ...

and that means it is not obviously slower than other MFT lenses, when the speed is limited by the camera, as is the case for "normal" changes in subject/focus distance i.e. between objects more than 1m away. On the other hand it is slower than some other lenses when the limit is due to the focus motor, i.e. when there are pronounced changes in distance from close focus e.g. <0.5m to infinity. I suspect that this lens also "feels" slower than it actually is because the motor is clearly audible, at least that is my impression.

Note however that, according to the manual*, AFC and AFF focus modes don't work with the 20mm on the GX-7. (I've tried the lens but had not tried either of those modes.)  That might be more significant than the slight speed differences (or not, depending on what you need).

*p46: "When the interchangeable lens (H-H020A) is used, [AFF] and [AFC] cannot be set."

Ken

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Anders W
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Re: Is the Panny 20mm f/1.7 slow to focus on the GX7?
In reply to Ken Strain, 4 months ago

Ken Strain wrote:

Gunnlaugur Gudmundsson wrote:

Yes it is a new newer version, but the changes are only cosmetic (all black / all silver version also I think), the performance is supposed to be the same ...

and that means it is not obviously slower than other MFT lenses, when the speed is limited by the camera, as is the case for "normal" changes in subject/focus distance i.e. between objects more than 1m away. On the other hand it is slower than some other lenses when the limit is due to the focus motor, i.e. when there are pronounced changes in distance from close focus e.g. <0.5m to infinity. I suspect that this lens also "feels" slower than it actually is because the motor is clearly audible, at least that is my impression.

Note however that, according to the manual*, AFC and AFF focus modes don't work with the 20mm on the GX-7. (I've tried the lens but had not tried either of those modes.) That might be more significant than the slight speed differences (or not, depending on what you need).

*p46: "When the interchangeable lens (H-H020A) is used, [AFF] and [AFC] cannot be set."

Ken

Hi Ken,

Thanks for your "preemptive" action. It saves me the trouble of saying pretty much exactly what you already said.

Another way of putting it would be as follows: Yes, the AF of the 20 is slower than that of most other MFT lenses except when you shoot stills in AF-S, switch between focus distances in the range from about 0.75 m to infinity, and fail to send the lens hunting. For me, this "exception" accounts for more than 99 percent of my usage of the 20.

Some evidence with regard to AF behavior in this "exceptional" case here:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50877416

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jhinkey
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Re: Is the Panny 20mm f/1.7 slow to focus on the GX7?
In reply to Anders W, 4 months ago

My experience with the new 20/1.7 on my GX7 mirrors that of Anders - if it's focusing on something not near it's pretty quick.  It takes about a second to rack all the way from MFD to infinity which can seem like forever if you are in a hurry.  Small AF changes at far distances are pretty fast - fast enough at least.

Also, it seems to me that the size of the AF point box seems to affect it as well - i.e., the smaller the size of the AF box the slower it is and is somewhat less reliable, but it may just be me.

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rhlpetrus
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Thank all, next question then Re: Is the Panny 20mm f/1.7 slow to focus on the GX7?
In reply to jhinkey, 4 months ago

jhinkey wrote:

My experience with the new 20/1.7 on my GX7 mirrors that of Anders - if it's focusing on something not near it's pretty quick. It takes about a second to rack all the way from MFD to infinity which can seem like forever if you are in a hurry. Small AF changes at far distances are pretty fast - fast enough at least.

Also, it seems to me that the size of the AF point box seems to affect it as well - i.e., the smaller the size of the AF box the slower it is and is somewhat less reliable, but it may just be me.

Thanks all. Now my question then is: do other fast primes work similarly or are newer ones better in that respect. Af speed is my main issue with non-dslrs, I want to corner that wrt m43 before I move into the system.

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The Jacal
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Re: Thank all, next question then Re: Is the Panny 20mm f/1.7 slow to focus on the GX7?
In reply to rhlpetrus, 4 months ago

rhlpetrus wrote:

jhinkey wrote:

My experience with the new 20/1.7 on my GX7 mirrors that of Anders - if it's focusing on something not near it's pretty quick. It takes about a second to rack all the way from MFD to infinity which can seem like forever if you are in a hurry. Small AF changes at far distances are pretty fast - fast enough at least.

Also, it seems to me that the size of the AF point box seems to affect it as well - i.e., the smaller the size of the AF box the slower it is and is somewhat less reliable, but it may just be me.

Thanks all. Now my question then is: do other fast primes work similarly or are newer ones better in that respect. Af speed is my main issue with non-dslrs, I want to corner that wrt m43 before I move into the system.

The 'newer' primes have an internal focusing thingy; the front element doesnt move. Therefore they focus blisteringly quickly.

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SLOtographer
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Re: Thank all, next question then Re: Is the Panny 20mm f/1.7 slow to focus on the GX7?
In reply to rhlpetrus, 4 months ago

jhinkey wrote:

My experience with the new 20/1.7 on my GX7 mirrors that of Anders - if it's focusing on something not near it's pretty quick. It takes about a second to rack all the way from MFD to infinity which can seem like forever if you are in a hurry. Small AF changes at far distances are pretty fast - fast enough at least.

Also, it seems to me that the size of the AF point box seems to affect it as well - i.e., the smaller the size of the AF box the slower it is and is somewhat less reliable, but it may just be me.

Thanks all. Now my question then is: do other fast primes work similarly or are newer ones better in that respect. Af speed is my main issue with non-dslrs, I want to corner that wrt m43 before I move into the system.

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The other primes and zooms AF much faster. In fact in AFS I don't see a real-world difference for normal subject differences. If you are shooting lots of sports with long lenses and always using AFC/AI-Servo, then mirrorless is not for you. Portraits, kids, youth soccer, M43 is fine.

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traveler_101
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Re: Is the Panny 20mm f/1.7 slow to focus on the GX7?
In reply to jhinkey, 4 months ago

jhinkey wrote:

Also, it seems to me that the size of the AF point box seems to affect it as well - i.e., the smaller the size of the AF box the slower it is and is somewhat less reliable, but it may just be me.

No, not just you: I have had a similar experience, but I must admit that I have not undertaken tests to prove this is true.

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traveler_101
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Re: Is the Panny 20mm f/1.7 slow to focus on the GX7?
In reply to traveler_101, 4 months ago

Just to add--

The 20/1.7 is a legendary lens for m43: when it came out it in 2009 d-preview really sat up and took notice of a lens that seemed to manifest the potential of the small camera; the reviewers called it "the first must-have lens for Micro Four Thirds." It really put m43 on the map. When I bought my E-P1 in early 2010 I ordered the 20/1.7 immediately and it has been far and away my most used lens on this system. And of course, there is much to be said for pancake lenses in a system that emphasises potability.

It's important to remember the history of the lens and to acknowledge its very high image quality (check out DOX Mark data if you have any doubts). But it is an "older" technology (already). I realise that to speak of five years ago as "older" is absurd, but that reflects just how quickly things have been developing for m43. The 20/1.7's design for focusing which relies on moving the body of the lens is a little "clunky" and it just appears/sounds/performs a bit "old fashioned" in comparison to the internally focusing MSC lenses from Olympus. As one member of this forum said, the 20/1.7 has a tendency to "hunt like a dog" (lol) and he gave a link to the following video as evidence:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sun1cA4NhUc

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Jacques Cornell
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No slower than Canon 35mm f2 on 1D Mark III. N/T
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Ken Strain
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Re: Thank all, next question then Re: Is the Panny 20mm f/1.7 slow to focus on the GX7?
In reply to rhlpetrus, 4 months ago

rhlpetrus wrote:

jhinkey wrote:

My experience with the new 20/1.7 on my GX7 mirrors that of Anders - if it's focusing on something not near it's pretty quick. It takes about a second to rack all the way from MFD to infinity which can seem like forever if you are in a hurry. Small AF changes at far distances are pretty fast - fast enough at least.

Also, it seems to me that the size of the AF point box seems to affect it as well - i.e., the smaller the size of the AF box the slower it is and is somewhat less reliable, but it may just be me.

Thanks all. Now my question then is: do other fast primes work similarly or are newer ones better in that respect. Af speed is my main issue with non-dslrs, I want to corner that wrt m43 before I move into the system.

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The 20 is the only lens singled out on p46 of the longer English manual.

The Olympus 17/2.8 has a broadly similar focus action, but that one is not a great lens anyway.

Ken

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Anders W
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Re: Thank all, next question then Re: Is the Panny 20mm f/1.7 slow to focus on the GX7?
In reply to rhlpetrus, 4 months ago

rhlpetrus wrote:

jhinkey wrote:

My experience with the new 20/1.7 on my GX7 mirrors that of Anders - if it's focusing on something not near it's pretty quick. It takes about a second to rack all the way from MFD to infinity which can seem like forever if you are in a hurry. Small AF changes at far distances are pretty fast - fast enough at least.

Also, it seems to me that the size of the AF point box seems to affect it as well - i.e., the smaller the size of the AF box the slower it is and is somewhat less reliable, but it may just be me.

Thanks all. Now my question then is: do other fast primes work similarly or are newer ones better in that respect. Af speed is my main issue with non-dslrs, I want to corner that wrt m43 before I move into the system.

As Ken Strain already mentioned, the 17/2.8 and the 20/1.7 (the first two primes for MFT) have external rather than internal focus, which makes the max speed of the lens AF mechanism lower than that of other lenses. But whether this has any implications for AF speed depends entirely on whether it's the lens AF mechanism or body processing that is the bottleneck.

For my use case (see my reply to Ken Strain above for description), it's body processing so I am just as fine AF-ing with my 20 as with any other MFT lens. This is true even if I use the smallest AF box available on my E-M5 or my old G1 and I have not noticed any reliability problems either. AF is faster with the E-M5 than with the G1 since body processing is faster with the E-M5. That's all.

In terms of sharpness, the 20/1.7 is as good as it gets, and it's nicely small and light. So if your use case resembles mine and if you don't have any reservations about the focal length (I don't since I prefer my standard prime to be slightly on the wide side, i.e., 35 or 40 mm EFL), I don't think you should hesitate to get the 20/1.7 in a kit with the GX7.

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Anders W
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Re: Is the Panny 20mm f/1.7 slow to focus on the GX7?
In reply to traveler_101, 4 months ago

traveler_101 wrote:

jhinkey wrote:

Also, it seems to me that the size of the AF point box seems to affect it as well - i.e., the smaller the size of the AF box the slower it is and is somewhat less reliable, but it may just be me.

No, not just you: I have had a similar experience, but I must admit that I have not undertaken tests to prove this is true.

I haven't noticed any problems with using the smallest AF box (as I always do on my E-M5). Of course, a very small box can occasionally give rise to problems due to insufficiently strong AF signal (contrast relative to noise) within that box. But that's the same for any lens and has nothing to do specifically with the 20.

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traveler_101
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Re: Is the Panny 20mm f/1.7 slow to focus on the GX7?
In reply to Anders W, 4 months ago

Anders W wrote:

traveler_101 wrote:

jhinkey wrote:

Also, it seems to me that the size of the AF point box seems to affect it as well - i.e., the smaller the size of the AF box the slower it is and is somewhat less reliable, but it may just be me.

No, not just you: I have had a similar experience, but I must admit that I have not undertaken tests to prove this is true.

I haven't noticed any problems with using the smallest AF box (as I always do on my E-M5). Of course, a very small box can occasionally give rise to problems due to insufficiently strong AF signal (contrast relative to noise) within that box. But that's the same for any lens and has nothing to do specifically with the 20.

Absolutely correct, one should increase focus box size when shooting in low light conditions. That said, when trying night shooting back in December i could not get the P-20 to focus at all, while the P-14 did manage, albeit slowly.

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Anders W
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Re: Is the Panny 20mm f/1.7 slow to focus on the GX7?
In reply to traveler_101, 4 months ago

traveler_101 wrote:

Just to add--

The 20/1.7 is a legendary lens for m43: when it came out it in 2009 d-preview really sat up and took notice of a lens that seemed to manifest the potential of the small camera; the reviewers called it "the first must-have lens for Micro Four Thirds." It really put m43 on the map. When I bought my E-P1 in early 2010 I ordered the 20/1.7 immediately and it has been far and away my most used lens on this system. And of course, there is much to be said for pancake lenses in a system that emphasises potability.

It's important to remember the history of the lens and to acknowledge its very high image quality (check out DOX Mark data if you have any doubts). But it is an "older" technology (already). I realise that to speak of five years ago as "older" is absurd, but that reflects just how quickly things have been developing for m43. The 20/1.7's design for focusing which relies on moving the body of the lens is a little "clunky" and it just appears/sounds/performs a bit "old fashioned" in comparison to the internally focusing MSC lenses from Olympus. As one member of this forum said, the 20/1.7 has a tendency to "hunt like a dog" (lol) and he gave a link to the following video as evidence:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sun1cA4NhUc

And that evidence is worth absolutely nothing as shown by the discussion in the thread where it was originally posted. Of course, if you don't keep the AF target perfectly constant, you can very easily "show" one lens to hunt more than another. If you do keep it constant, as I have in my tests of hunting propensity, you will find that the 20 starts hunting at a similarly low light level as other lenses with a similar max aperture. This is of course in line with expectations since the "decision" of whether to hunt or not is made by the body on the basis of AF signal strength, and the 20/1.7 has good contrast and a wide max aperture.

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Anders W
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Re: Is the Panny 20mm f/1.7 slow to focus on the GX7?
In reply to traveler_101, 4 months ago

traveler_101 wrote:

Anders W wrote:

traveler_101 wrote:

jhinkey wrote:

Also, it seems to me that the size of the AF point box seems to affect it as well - i.e., the smaller the size of the AF box the slower it is and is somewhat less reliable, but it may just be me.

No, not just you: I have had a similar experience, but I must admit that I have not undertaken tests to prove this is true.

I haven't noticed any problems with using the smallest AF box (as I always do on my E-M5). Of course, a very small box can occasionally give rise to problems due to insufficiently strong AF signal (contrast relative to noise) within that box. But that's the same for any lens and has nothing to do specifically with the 20.

Absolutely correct, one should increase focus box size when shooting in low light conditions. That said, when trying night shooting back in December i could not get the P-20 to focus at all, while the P-14 did manage, albeit slowly.

In all likelihood a matter of target differences rather than lens ability. Even if you shoot exactly the same subject with the two lenses, you will have AF target variation unless you vary the subject distance to keep magnification constant. See also my other reply to you here:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53345416

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traveler_101
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Re: Is the Panny 20mm f/1.7 slow to focus on the GX7?
In reply to traveler_101, 4 months ago

HOWEVER, I must add that my entire experience with the 20/1.7 comes on Olympus bodies, most recently the E-PM2. Lenses do behave differently on different bodies.

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