Do I need to go dual system?

Started 4 months ago | Discussions
KatManDEW
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Do I need to go dual system?
4 months ago

Got my 5D3 two years ago this week. Also have a 7D and nine "L" lenses. I've drooled over the D800 since the day I got my 5D3. And like many, I'm itching for a 7D replacement, with truly improved image quality, and improved AF (I'm not interested in dual pixel drivel). My 7D is just not reliable with my 200-400, and it's hard to argue against that D800 sensor (for some uses).
I know no one knows, but I'm interested if anyone has any convincing thoughts about whether Canon will introduce anything compelling this year, like before fall... If I had a crystal ball and knew Canon was just going to do nothing, I would order a D800 and lens right now. I've looked hard at the a7R and I don't think it's for me.
I know, many fanboys are going to whine. Go ahead. It's my money.

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Just another Canon shooter
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Re: Do I need to go dual system?
In reply to KatManDEW, 4 months ago

Buy a 10th lens. I am serious.

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KatManDEW
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Re: Do I need to go dual system?
In reply to Just another Canon shooter, 4 months ago

Just another Canon shooter wrote:

Buy a 10th lens. I am serious.

Another TS-E, and a a7R to go with it?

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John Zeman
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Re: Do I need to go dual system?
In reply to KatManDEW, 4 months ago

As long as it's your money I think you should get the D800 and buy 9 expensive Nikon lenses to go with it.
Oorrrrrrr wait and see what Canon does, what's the hurry?

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KatManDEW
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Re: Do I need to go dual system?
In reply to John Zeman, 4 months ago

John Zeman wrote:

As long as it's your money I think you should get the D800 and buy 9 expensive Nikon lenses to go with it.
Oorrrrrrr wait and see what Canon does, what's the hurry?

I'm no spring chicken and I'm getting older in a hurry Among other things, I like to shoot landscapes, and it's hard to argue with that D800 sensor for landscapes. I still haven't ruled out the a7R.

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John Zeman
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Re: Do I need to go dual system?
In reply to KatManDEW, 4 months ago

KatManDEW wrote:

I'm no spring chicken and I'm getting older in a hurry Among other things, I like to shoot landscapes, and it's hard to argue with that D800 sensor for landscapes. I still haven't ruled out the a7R.

I'm no spring chicken either, which reminds me I need to renew my patent on dirt.
By the way, my response last time was mostly tongue in cheek.
On a serious note none of us knows what Canon is going to come up with so why wait to hear what the others, who also don't know anything, will say?
I can tell you this much, I also have a 5D3, a 5D2, and I used to have a 7D, which 2 years ago I traded for a 1D4. With my current gear set up which includes 9 mostly L lenses, I'm as happy as a clam buried in the sand on a beach full of scantily clad bikini beauties.

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cpkuntz
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Re: Do I need to go dual system?
In reply to KatManDEW, 4 months ago

I've thought many times about doing this myself. I've concluded that it may be best to wait for Nikon to release its update to the D800/E, which may come soon. Nikon seems to have a somewhat shorter product cycle now than Canon, so a D900 or D800S may come fairly soon.
As far as Canon goes, I don't see their sensors catching up with the Sony/Nikon partnership as far as read noise, dynamic range, and perhaps resolution in the forseeable future. Sure, they may release a $5000-$6000 1DXs with 40-50 megapixels, but it will have the same problems with read noise and dynamic range as the rest of the Canon sensors until they somehow find their own answer to column ADCs. Since that particular approach is patent-protected, it will take quite an engineering leap for Canon to match Sony's quality, a leap I don't see happening considering that Canon has fewer R&D resources than Sony in this regard. Sony, after all, is a world leader in semiconductor research.

I've also thought about the A7R.  I don't think it's worth it.  First, I am not a fan of the form-factor.  I know everyone seems to drool over smaller bodies nowadays, but I actually prefer the ergonomics and balance of DSLRs.  The size advantage of the A7R is also diminished somewhat by certain focal length lenses.  In addition, it seems that even with a good Metabones adapter, there will be some IQ loss putting a Canon lens onto the A7R.  Hence my interest in a D800 or its successor.

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KatManDEW
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Re: Do I need to go dual system?
In reply to John Zeman, 4 months ago

John Zeman wrote:

KatManDEW wrote:

I'm no spring chicken and I'm getting older in a hurry Among other things, I like to shoot landscapes, and it's hard to argue with that D800 sensor for landscapes. I still haven't ruled out the a7R.

I'm no spring chicken either, which reminds me I need to renew my patent on dirt.
By the way, my response last time was mostly tongue in cheek.
On a serious note none of us knows what Canon is going to come up with so why wait to hear what the others, who also don't know anything, will say?
I can tell you this much, I also have a 5D3, a 5D2, and I used to have a 7D, which 2 years ago I traded for a 1D4. With my current gear set up which includes 9 mostly L lenses, I'm as happy as a clam buried in the sand on a beach full of scantily clad bikini beauties.

I'm not going to wait, past May. I'm going to go ahead with plans to sell my 7D ASAP. Probably put that money toward a 70D no later than May. I want to keep a crop body for wildlife. I would much rather have a 7DII, but in the absence of water, people stranded in the desert will try to drink sand
A camera store not too far away has the a7R in stock, so I'm going to see if they have a demo model I can get my hands on. I've been shooting Canon for 10 years and it wouldn't hurt me to experiment outside the Canon world anyway.

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KatManDEW
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Re: Do I need to go dual system?
In reply to cpkuntz, 4 months ago

cpkuntz wrote:

I've thought many times about doing this myself. I've concluded that it may be best to wait for Nikon to release its update to the D800/E, which may come soon. Nikon seems to have a somewhat shorter product cycle now than Canon, so a D900 or D800S may come fairly soon.
As far as Canon goes, I don't see their sensors catching up with the Sony/Nikon partnership as far as read noise, dynamic range, and perhaps resolution in the forseeable future. Sure, they may release a $5000-$6000 1DXs with 40-50 megapixels, but it will have the same problems with read noise and dynamic range as the rest of the Canon sensors until they somehow find their own answer to column ADCs. Since that particular approach is patent-protected, it will take quite an engineering leap for Canon to match Sony's quality, a leap I don't see happening considering that Canon has fewer R&D resources than Sony in this regard. Sony, after all, is a world leader in semiconductor research.

I've also thought about the A7R. I don't think it's worth it. First, I am not a fan of the form-factor. I know everyone seems to drool over smaller bodies nowadays, but I actually prefer the ergonomics and balance of DSLRs. The size advantage of the A7R is also diminished somewhat by certain focal length lenses. In addition, it seems that even with a good Metabones adapter, there will be some IQ loss putting a Canon lens onto the A7R. Hence my interest in a D800 or its successor.

Interesting perspectives. That's kind of what I was fishing for... Thanks.

I too worry about Canon being able to answer the column ADC's. And also that their high resolution answer to the D800 may be a radically more expensive 1DXs, or whatever. I shoot quite a bit of sports and wildlife, but I don't need 1D speed.

The small body thing means nothing to me. In fact I don't get it. It's not small with a big lens on it.

As little as Canon seems to be concerned about still photography, I wouldn't be surprised to see a D900 before Canon responds. Not trying to bash or stir up a fight. It's just my personal perspective on what is more likely to happen.

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johnierebel
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Re: Do I need to go dual system?
In reply to KatManDEW, 4 months ago

KatManDEW wrote:

cpkuntz wrote:

I've thought many times about doing this myself. I've concluded that it may be best to wait for Nikon to release its update to the D800/E, which may come soon. Nikon seems to have a somewhat shorter product cycle now than Canon, so a D900 or D800S may come fairly soon.
As far as Canon goes, I don't see their sensors catching up with the Sony/Nikon partnership as far as read noise, dynamic range, and perhaps resolution in the forseeable future. Sure, they may release a $5000-$6000 1DXs with 40-50 megapixels, but it will have the same problems with read noise and dynamic range as the rest of the Canon sensors until they somehow find their own answer to column ADCs. Since that particular approach is patent-protected, it will take quite an engineering leap for Canon to match Sony's quality, a leap I don't see happening considering that Canon has fewer R&D resources than Sony in this regard. Sony, after all, is a world leader in semiconductor research.

I've also thought about the A7R. I don't think it's worth it. First, I am not a fan of the form-factor. I know everyone seems to drool over smaller bodies nowadays, but I actually prefer the ergonomics and balance of DSLRs. The size advantage of the A7R is also diminished somewhat by certain focal length lenses. In addition, it seems that even with a good Metabones adapter, there will be some IQ loss putting a Canon lens onto the A7R. Hence my interest in a D800 or its successor.

Interesting perspectives. That's kind of what I was fishing for... Thanks.

I too worry about Canon being able to answer the column ADC's. And also that their high resolution answer to the D800 may be a radically more expensive 1DXs, or whatever. I shoot quite a bit of sports and wildlife, but I don't need 1D speed.

The small body thing means nothing to me. In fact I don't get it. It's not small with a big lens on it.

As little as Canon seems to be concerned about still photography, I wouldn't be surprised to see a D900 before Canon responds. Not trying to bash or stir up a fight. It's just my personal perspective on what is more likely to happen.

My thinking is a dual system route is the only real way to get resolution for landscaping & still get a couple of lenses from canon. I will just use my old rebel for general photography. D800E + rebel. on the up-side rumors say announcement April sometime on the 7D2. good luck

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KatManDEW
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Re: Do I need to go dual system?
In reply to johnierebel, 4 months ago

johnierebel wrote:

My thinking is a dual system route is the only real way to get resolution for landscaping & still get a couple of lenses from canon. I will just use my old rebel for general photography. D800E + rebel. on the up-side rumors say announcement April sometime on the 7D2. good luck

I hope the rumors are right about the 7DII, but I'm not waiting past May, and through another summer. If Canon doesn't dangle something in front of my nose I will spend my money elsewhere. I'm sure it won't hurt Canon's financial situation, and they'll do just fine without my peanuts 

I just revisited some D800 RAW files and I find it hard to not like 'em. I have a 24 inch wide printer and the D800 yields 204 DPI at 24x36. The 5D3 is 160 DPI. I've done plenty of 16x24 prints at around those two resolutions and I can see the difference.

And on my wide gamut monitor the extra DR appears to offer more than just extreme shadow lifting capability. In some quick experimentation there seems to be more to recover from the highlights too, and the overall image tonality seems to hold up better to processing. There doesn't seem to be anything to not like about the extra DR

I'll have to skip over to the Nikon forums to see if there is any speculation on a D900, but for now a D800 and 14-24mm just went on my short list.

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Rexgig0
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There are a number of multi-system members here.
In reply to KatManDEW, 4 months ago

In my case, my wife started teaching me how to use an SLR with her then-new employer-issued D300s. She had previouly bought a used Canon XTi/400D from a colleague, which was the first SLR I used when walking about on my own. So, it was not an either/or game, for me, from the beginning. She was an Olympian in the film days, and has now settled upon being a digital Nikonian.

As I started deciding which system to buy for myself, I found that liked specific lenses from both Canon and Nikon. The features and ergonomics of the Canon 7D prompted me to buy it, as my first new DSLR. For a time, I used a Novoflex adapter, the EOS/NIK, to use Nikkor lenses on Canon bodies. Now, the adapter sits on the shelf, and may be used for trading toward something at a local camera shoppe.

It seems perfectly sensible, to me, for a Canon shooter to add a D800/D800E to the equation, for the types of shooting it does well. I may well do this, myself; a D800E, and a Nikkor 14-24mm 2.8G, are high on my wish list.

I find myself trending toward cropped-frame (APS-H and APS-C) Canons, and FX (full-frame) Nikons.

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Zee Char
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Re: Do I need to go dual system?
In reply to KatManDEW, 4 months ago

KatManDEW wrote:

johnierebel wrote:

My thinking is a dual system route is the only real way to get resolution for landscaping & still get a couple of lenses from canon. I will just use my old rebel for general photography. D800E + rebel. on the up-side rumors say announcement April sometime on the 7D2. good luck

I hope the rumors are right about the 7DII, but I'm not waiting past May, and through another summer. If Canon doesn't dangle something in front of my nose I will spend my money elsewhere. I'm sure it won't hurt Canon's financial situation, and they'll do just fine without my peanuts

I just revisited some D800 RAW files and I find it hard to not like 'em. I have a 24 inch wide printer and the D800 yields 204 DPI at 24x36. The 5D3 is 160 DPI. I've done plenty of 16x24 prints at around those two resolutions and I can see the difference.

And on my wide gamut monitor the extra DR appears to offer more than just extreme shadow lifting capability. In some quick experimentation there seems to be more to recover from the highlights too, and the overall image tonality seems to hold up better to processing. There doesn't seem to be anything to not like about the extra DR

I'll have to skip over to the Nikon forums to see if there is any speculation on a D900, but for now a D800 and 14-24mm just went on my short list.

You are comparing apples to oranges because of the megapixels between both bodies. I noticed a huge difference in crop capability when I went from a 50D to a 7D.

Are you a pro? Are you having customer complaints because they feel the DR is just not good enough or the resolution is not to their liking?

Do friends and family viewing a 800 or 5D print separately know the difference if you are not pointing it out? Is a hobby thing? If you like to look at things that closely and you have the money then by all means get what you want. You won't be the first. I would not go with two systems as it would be too much of a pain for me to work with two systems. If I was a working pro I'd pick the best system for my needs depending on the type of photography I was doing.

If I had unlimited money I'd probably have several glass cased displays. One for Canon, one for Nikon, Leica, Hasselblad and so on

I also have 5D3 and a close friend has the D800. He chirps about the file size once in a while. It is a nice camera and it is tough to beat that lens unless you get into Canons TSE II lenses. The 17mm rocks. I'm very happy with my Canon gear. I prefer Canon's ergonomics as well.

Good luck on your choices.

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aftab
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Re: Do I need to go dual system?
In reply to cpkuntz, 4 months ago

cpkuntz wrote:

As far as Canon goes, I don't see their sensors catching up with the Sony/Nikon partnership as far as read noise, dynamic range, and perhaps resolution in the forseeable future. Sure, they may release a $5000-$6000 1DXs with 40-50 megapixels, but it will have the same problems with read noise and dynamic range as the rest of the Canon sensors until they somehow find their own answer to column ADCs. Since that particular approach is patent-protected, it will take quite an engineering leap for Canon to match Sony's quality, a leap I don't see happening considering that Canon has fewer R&D resources than Sony in this regard. Sony, after all, is a world leader in semiconductor research.

I am not sure that 'that particular approach' is patent protected. Take Toshiba for example. Nikon has used Toshiba sensor in their D5100 (and probably D5200). It's DR is 13.9 according to DXO and that's one of the highest for a crop sensor camera. Panasonic makes excellent sensors for the size of the sensors with DR approaching 13. A little known sensor manufacturer in Europe made sensor for Leica's latest M camera with about 2 stop better DR than what Canon is offering now. So, making sensors with high DR is not Sony's monopoly anymore, neither it will need some groundbreaking technology on Canon's part. According to some unsubstantiated reports Canon has been sitting on on chip column parallel ADC technology since 2001.

Canon just needs to make a decision to make them and put them in their cameras. Decision will depend on money (new fab), not some technology to bypass Exmor patent.

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PhotoKhan
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Re: Do I need to go dual system?
In reply to John Zeman, 4 months ago

John Zeman wrote:

Oorrrrrrr wait and see what Canon does, what's the hurry?

Yes, one shouldn't be in an hurry, if that's what one wants to see.

PK

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Peter M J
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Re: There are a number of multi-system members here.
In reply to Rexgig0, 4 months ago

I have a Canon 6D and a Nikon D800

In normal photography the D800 has improved resolution and dynamic range- however the Canon 6D is my camera of choice for its colours and particularly skin tones. I also find the Canon flash system suits me better although some people would disagreeUnless you are doing huge prints or heavy cropping its unlikely you will see much difference without a heavy investment in nikon lenses I know which prints my non photographic friends prefer.

Best wishesPeter

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biza43
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Re: Do I need to go dual system?
In reply to KatManDEW, 4 months ago

Well, for sure will not announce anything until May, so if you are not willing to wait beyond that, get the D800, nothing wrong with getting a camera that suits one's needs and requirements. Matter of fact, that is what everybody should do...

In my case, I am happy with the 6D, but I seldom print as large as you, so it's good enough for me. The only thing I would suggest is to get a nice Zeiss wide angle.

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Al Downie
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Re: Do I need to go dual system?
In reply to biza43, 4 months ago

Could you stretch to medium format instead? Amazing resolution and low noise from the large sensor, and perfect for landscapes. Seems like that would satisfy your need for maximum quality and resolution for landscapes without making the Canon equipment redundant.

Mamiya and Pentax make models that seem like good value.

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Mike Gerstner
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Re: Do I need to go dual system?
In reply to KatManDEW, 4 months ago

KatManDEW wrote:

I'm no spring chicken and I'm getting older in a hurry Among other things, I like to shoot landscapes, and it's hard to argue with that D800 sensor for landscapes. I still haven't ruled out the a7R.

If landscapes is your main subject you might consider one of the Sigma DP Merrill series cameras.

Yeah, the camera is slow, along with their processing software, but if you can get around that the results are quite amazing. My 5D III & lenses is my main system, but I always have my DP2 Merrill (& tripod) at the ready for landscape shots.

The learning curve is a little different (shooting & processing) but the results (pixel level detail, tonal gradation, micro contrast/acutance) are hard to beat. Accurate color can be a challenge on rare occasions, but a trip thru ACR usually fixes that.

fwiw I'm kind of in the same boat. I do like the canon default colors better than the nikon, but the DR and shadow recovery of the nikon is pretty amazing. Hopefully canon can come up with something soon to match, sooner rather than later.

It'll be interesting to read about your experience if you do get the d800.

Just a test shot, but the foreground detail (and the overall detail) is something I could never achieve, IMHO, with the 5D III. Check out the "original" on either link below the image.

http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/7203006296/photos/2761386/_sdi0641

good luck, Mike

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Mike Gerstner
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In reply to Mike Gerstner, 4 months ago

fwiw, you can rent one here for cheap money and give it a whirl.

http://www.lensrentals.com/rent/compact/sigma/sigma-dp2-merrill-compact-camera

Rogers write up is an interesting read.

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