RAW and JPG files

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
brycesteiner
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Re: Trash both those files
In reply to Guy Parsons, 8 months ago

I didn't know that. I thought the camera just read the raw file directly.

thanks

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s_grins
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Re: Trash both those files
In reply to brycesteiner, 8 months ago

brycesteiner wrote:

I didn't know that. I thought the camera just read the raw file directly.

thanks

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and I'm the second who thinks the same

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David 247
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Re: Processed with Aperture...
In reply to brycesteiner, 8 months ago

Okay, this is a quick and dirty in Aperture, from the RAW

First off, this image is so underexposed that it really is trash. Not worth putting a lot of time into it.

Second, the "native" ISO on your EM5 sensor is 200. 100 is an artificial reduction.

Third, understand that Aperture works differently then Lightroom but both are capable if you take the time to learn them. There are online tutorials, some of which are free. Take them and learn how the software works. Don't call either one "bad" just because you don't understand how to use them.

RAW will take a reasonable image and give you more detail to work with. It is best utilized for properly exposed images to pull out more detail and expand dynamic range, as well as to eliminate damage that might be done by in-camera JPEG processing which can be heavy handed sometimes. Photographers goal should always be "correct exposure" no matter which you choose to use for final results.

I shoot RAW+JPEG. JPEG is used as a reference or for a quick post. For serious detail I use RAW. It takes more time but the results are worth it if you are serious about your photography. The purpose of RAW is detail retention, not correcting BAD photos, though it can do wonders with some bad images in an emergency.

My steps were random and not necessarily the best order. Need to get some sleep, so this was very quick and dirty.

1. Adjust black level for max brightness

2. Adjust Brightness to Max

3. Adjust exposure to Max

4. Shadows to Max

5. Contrast to .50

6. Adjust levels with level tool (might have to add to the tools if not showing) starting with the hightlights to bring up more, then adjust shadows to get more contrast and midpoint to finetune. (use the add adjustment button towards the top of the tools pallette).

7. Adjust color balance to taste. (I didn't waste a lot of time on that).

8. Sharpened just a little.

Did no noise reduction, but with aperture that is best done using a third party noise reduction plug-in of which there are several.

Try to be more realistic. 2, 3, maybe 4 stops, but unless it is purely documentary recovery or forensic, 5+ is really asking too much. With more time, more can be done, but not worth wasting time on something that far off if it doesn't serve a real purpose.

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Ulfric M Douglas
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Re: RAW and JPG files
In reply to brycesteiner, 8 months ago

I don't think you should eat cabbage and ice-cream together.

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You're evil Ulfric.

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Kim Letkeman
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+1 for Lightroom
In reply to diverroy, 8 months ago

diverroy wrote:

brycesteiner wrote:

So, While I am waiting for Adobe, what is the best RAW processor out there? PC or Mac is fine.

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The trouble with asking that question is that everyone will have their favourite.

I use Lightroom. It has a great RAW processor and also lets you catalogue your images as well.

Best thing to do is to try as many of the free trials you can and see what suits you best

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Bob Carstens
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Re: Start the trials....
In reply to Guy Parsons, 8 months ago

Thanks Guy,

What would you recommend for the Sharpening and Raw Noise Sections in AfterShot Pro?  I'm inclined to uncheck the boxes and not use them.  I normally use Focus Magic for my sharpening.  I guess I'll have to watch the prices later this year and upgrade PaintShop Pro, I currently have version X4.

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Spiridakis Michael
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Not bad for such a bad exp.
In reply to Ulfric M Douglas, 8 months ago

This OMD EM5 can shoot even blind...

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brycesteiner
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Here is what I found out so far: Pros & Cons
In reply to brycesteiner, 8 months ago

I appreciate everyone's help on this issue.

A good test for RAW processors to see how a severely underexposed image could be saved.

1. Aperture struggles with the details and noise. Even when able to get the black point right, noise is next to impossible. Properly exposed images are not a problem at all. Aperture has a great interface, less memory requirements and the ability to stamp images quicker. Processing is very quick.

2. Lightroom really did an amazing job on the final image. The image would be usable in some applications. Zoomed up there is a cross hatch pattern, but it's very usable. The interface isn't bad, but not as intuitive (to me) as Aperture. The noise control is phenomenal. I didn't like having to go to different windows or tabs to edit the picture, but I think it could be learned or automated well.

3. Capture One. It did a very good job too and, interestingly enough, a cross hatch pattern also when zoomed up similar to Lightroom. It makes me wonder if they use the same processor inside. The noise engine is also very good. It came up with an image completely salvageable in certain situations. The interface was not bad, but it wasn't quite as perky as Aperture or Lightroom and it has the highest system requirements. Colors seemed better under LR then Capture one. Auto exposure kept trying to overexpose other images I tested it on. The HDR function seemed very good without making it too "processed" looking.

4. Aftershot Pro. Unfortunately I couldn't test it. After installing the software it said my trial was used up. I've never used it at all before so I don't know what that is about. I also saw the E-M1 isn't supported yet for RAW. I'll see if I can work it on another computer.

I think Lightroom and Capture One really did a great job and would give new life to older cameras now that software and RAW engines have been updated so much.It seems they would be a better investment than a new camera.

If I shot a lot of underexposed images then these would be the way to go. If the pictures are shot right, Aperture would be completely fine, but it doesn't give near the control the other two give. The automation is really good though. Maybe if version 4 is released it will be up to par.

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brycesteiner
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Re: Not bad for such a bad exp.
In reply to Spiridakis Michael, 8 months ago

That is nice. What software did you use?

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Ulric
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Re: Here is what I found out so far: Pros & Cons
In reply to brycesteiner, 8 months ago

brycesteiner wrote:

4. Aftershot Pro. Unfortunately I couldn't test it. After installing the software it said my trial was used up. I've never used it at all before so I don't know what that is about. I also saw the E-M1 isn't supported yet for RAW. I'll see if I can work it on another computer.

Here's my attempt in Aftershot Pro.

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Guy Parsons
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Embedded jpegs
In reply to brycesteiner, 8 months ago

brycesteiner wrote:

I didn't know that. I thought the camera just read the raw file directly.

thanks

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Make it a Great day!

The embedded jpeg seems to be there twice, I think there's also a tiny 640x480 thumbnail (for the 30/100 thumbnail display) plus the better jpeg of something near 3200 pixels* wide at a fairly high compression, it looks OK but a real jpeg can look better.

*that's for Olympus, I think Panasonic is only 1920 wide embedded jpeg. But I being lazy and guessing from my memory, we need an Anders or somesuch to correct me.

Some other brand cameras do read the RAW file but it speeds things up to have that embedded one displayed instead.

If shooting RAW only and really do need to see what happened then do a RAW edit in camera to produce the real jpeg for more careful examination, but the pain is that those camera-made jpegs use file numbers that follow on from the highest on the card so you start to lose track of things.

So I shoot RAW+ jpeg but use either Fine or Normal jpeg as being good enough for in-camera scrutiny. I keep both on the computer but use the jpegs created from the RAWs as the ones that go to the big archive and get backed up a few times.

Regards.... Guy

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Guy Parsons
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Re: Start the trials....
In reply to Bob Carstens, 8 months ago

Bob Carstens wrote:

Thanks Guy,

What would you recommend for the Sharpening and Raw Noise Sections in AfterShot Pro?

Different nearly every time, I go to 100% and fiddle sharpen and noise but definitely under-do noise so detail is not disturbed, and sharpen left usually under-done as my pet hate is the crispy gritty digital look that over-sharpening delivers.

I may go investigate Qimage Ultimate for sharpening as it has a clever one, looks better or maybe easier than fiddling USM. Owned it for years but print little now.

I'm inclined to uncheck the boxes and not use them. I normally use Focus Magic for my sharpening.

That is probably the best idea, I do leave sharpening to last because I sharpen to suit the display size or if printing leave sharpening at a minimum and let Qimage Ultimate do it automatically for me to suit the print size involved.

I guess I'll have to watch the prices later this year and upgrade PaintShop Pro, I currently have version X4.

November Black Friday seemed to be cheapest last year, but now Corel has locked access to keep me in Australia so I can't get to the USA sites to compare the prices. There may have been a St Patrick's Day discount as well, odd things happen all the time.

PSPX6 is way better in that it installs in two version 32 bit and 64 bit, old plugins that are 32 bit stay with it (I moved the Nik Colour Efex Pro 3 to the 32 bit version from the PSPX4 or 5 where it came from as a freebie).

Regards.... Guy

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s_grins
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Re: Embedded jpegs
In reply to Guy Parsons, 8 months ago

Guy Parsons wrote:

brycesteiner wrote:

I didn't know that. I thought the camera just read the raw file directly.

thanks

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If shooting RAW only and really do need to see what happened then do a RAW edit in camera to produce the real jpeg for more careful examination, but the pain is that those camera-made jpegs use file numbers that follow on from the highest on the card so you start to lose track of things.

Guy, I'm confused. I shoot either RAW or JPG.

When I shoot RAW only, I can review the shot, and to say the truth, it takes more time to camera to show image on LCD. I've never ever developed RAW into JPG in-camera and have no clue how to do this. I simply copy RAW on computer, use RAW software, and save image as JPG - same filename with different extension. I have never have a problems with duplicate filenames.

So, the question is how do you edit RAW in camera to produce the real JPG?

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Guy Parsons
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In camera edit
In reply to s_grins, 8 months ago

s_grins wrote:

So, the question is how do you edit RAW in camera to produce the real JPG?

Step 1. Set the camera up for the jpeg that you want, could even be an Art filter.

Step 2. Review the RAW image taken earlier.

Step 3. Press OK.

Step 4. "RAW Data Edit" press OK, "Current" OK, "Yes" OK

Goes Busy for a bit then...

Step 5. "No" OK and the image is added as the next file number in line.

You could sit there all day changing jpeg settings and creating new jpegs from the one RAW but it's easier to use Olympus Viewer 3 to simulate what the camera does.

Other than that it's easier to shoot RAW+ jpeg and later throw the jpegs away or fail to upload them and then format the card to get rid of them.

A sensible jpeg setting is needed even if you shoot only RAW as the blinkies (preferred by me) and the histogram are derived from the (embedded) jpeg and not from the RAW.

Regards..... Guy

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s_grins
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Re: In camera edit
In reply to Guy Parsons, 8 months ago

Guy Parsons wrote:

s_grins wrote:

So, the question is how do you edit RAW in camera to produce the real JPG?

Step 1. Set the camera up for the jpeg that you want, could even be an Art filter.

Step 2. Review the RAW image taken earlier.

Step 3. Press OK.

Step 4. "RAW Data Edit" press OK, "Current" OK, "Yes" OK

Goes Busy for a bit then...

Step 5. "No" OK and the image is added as the next file number in line.

You could sit there all day changing jpeg settings and creating new jpegs from the one RAW but it's easier to use Olympus Viewer 3 to simulate what the camera does.

Other than that it's easier to shoot RAW+ jpeg and later throw the jpegs away or fail to upload them and then format the card to get rid of them.

A sensible jpeg setting is needed even if you shoot only RAW as the blinkies (preferred by me) and the histogram are derived from the (embedded) jpeg and not from the RAW.

Regards..... Guy

Thank you, Guy!

I'll try this on my GH2

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Guy Parsons
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Panasonic = not
In reply to s_grins, 8 months ago

s_grins wrote:

Thank you, Guy!

I'll try this on my GH2

Sorry, I didn't realise you used Panasonic, it doesn't work there.

Only Olympus can do in-camera RAW edits. (Unless something has changed on latest models).

Regards..... Guy

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adoyle
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DxO Optics Pro 9
In reply to brycesteiner, 8 months ago

I figured it would be of interest to see what DxO Optics Pro 9 does with it.

I let it do the automatic camera/lens correction based on the EXIF, then I set WB at 3600, Exposure Comp to Center-Weighted Average, DxO Smart Lighting to 58, and turned on the Prime noise reduction. The result takes a couple of minutes to process on my 2012 MacBook Air with SSD.

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brycesteiner
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Re: DxO Optics Pro 9
In reply to adoyle, 8 months ago

Not bad at all.

Do you use that for everything or just difficult images like this?

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adoyle
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Re: DxO Optics Pro 9
In reply to brycesteiner, 8 months ago

Not bad at all.

Do you use that for everything or just difficult images like this?

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I don't use it a lot yet. But I'm trying to figure out a better workflow so using it and other software is easier. I'm starting to try Aperture with referenced files for that.

DxO Optics Pro is pretty nice, though.

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