Developing α7 RAW images

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Dandrewk
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Re: Developing α7 RAW images
In reply to Digital Nigel, 9 months ago

Digital Nigel wrote:

Dandrewk wrote:

Long term LR5 user here. I just tried DxO 9 and am impressed with NR and sharpness. Have not played around extensively, but if I decide to incorporate it I would use it as an converter, tweak the image and then import into LR for image management.

Quick question for DxO users: does is always take 3-4 minutes to export an image to hard drive? That is way to long, IMO. Am I doing something that might cause this?

You're probably using Prime NR. It's very effective but computationally intense. For low to moderate ISO shots you don't need it. Processing with the the default NR only takes a few seconds. In either case, you can keep on working on the next image(s) while previous image(s) are processed.

Obviously you should make sure that it's taking advantage of all the available threads on your PC.

Yes, thanks, I did realize that afterwards.  I had known about the Prime NR being processor intensive, but thought that the processing occurred while generating the preview, not the actual writing to disk.

One other quick question - when exporting to drive, it is possible to rename the file?  Something other than the default -DSCxxxxx?  I don't expect this function in DxO to be as robust as LR, but I should have the option in naming the output file.

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Digital Nigel
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Re: Developing α7 RAW images
In reply to Dandrewk, 9 months ago

Dandrewk wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

Dandrewk wrote:

Long term LR5 user here. I just tried DxO 9 and am impressed with NR and sharpness. Have not played around extensively, but if I decide to incorporate it I would use it as an converter, tweak the image and then import into LR for image management.

Quick question for DxO users: does is always take 3-4 minutes to export an image to hard drive? That is way to long, IMO. Am I doing something that might cause this?

You're probably using Prime NR. It's very effective but computationally intense. For low to moderate ISO shots you don't need it. Processing with the the default NR only takes a few seconds. In either case, you can keep on working on the next image(s) while previous image(s) are processed.

Obviously you should make sure that it's taking advantage of all the available threads on your PC.

Yes, thanks, I did realize that afterwards. I had known about the Prime NR being processor intensive, but thought that the processing occurred while generating the preview, not the actual writing to disk.

With Prime, it never processes the full preview (for obvious reasons), just the little inspection window, and even that takes a few seconds. It only processes the full image on export. The time taken depends mainly on the resolution, so the 36mp A7r images will take much longer than the 24mp A7 images.

One other quick question - when exporting to drive, it is possible to rename the file? Something other than the default -DSCxxxxx? I don't expect this function in DxO to be as robust as LR, but I should have the option in naming the output file.

You can add a limited length (I forget the exact length, but it's around 20 characters) suffix, which can include any characters (ie, not just _DxO), which can stay the same from shot to shot, or manually change it for each image. But it will always include the input file name in the output file name.

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osv
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Re: Developing α7 RAW images
In reply to Dandrewk, 9 months ago

Dandrewk wrote:

Yes, thanks, I did realize that afterwards. I had known about the Prime NR being processor intensive, but thought that the processing occurred while generating the preview, not the actual writing to disk.

the delay is not due to writing the file to disk, what you are waiting for with prime nr is cpu processing... if you look at the running processes on your windows computer, you'll see how hammered the cpu cycles are.

some of the interface issues that i find annoying: when you open a raw file, the program stalls out while it automatically opens up a preview window of every single photo in the same directory... i looked for a setting to change that behavior in the preferences window, but never found it.

the program also defaults to automatically looking online for a lens profile every time that you open an image, but that can be disabled.

i attempted to use dxo's basic functionality as a simple and quick photoshop replacement, but right off the bat i was thrown for a loop with the cropping interface... it's incredibly stupid and non-intuitive, the emphasis appears to be on a few very limited aspect ratio choices... it's easier to crop an image in microsoft paint than it is in dxo.

i think that you can download 30 day demo of dxo? i paid $180 for the elite version for the a7r, on sale, not sure what it is now, but i wouldn't pay more than that... i currently use it only for serious iso processing, but it's worth it for that alone.

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blue_skies
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Re: On DxO PRIME
In reply to Terry L, 9 months ago

Terry L wrote:

Sorry...I should have said that it was given the PRIME Noise Reduction treatment in DxO.

And I don't normally have the camera set to ISO25600 -- I was testing to see what DxO Optics Pro 9 could do.

DxO PRIME comes at a premium cost, but it does an outstanding job and can beat the OOC JPEG.

Runtime can be upwards of 5min per image, so use it sparingly ...

It does a better job than LR5.3 - this typically does not keep up with the JPG.

Other than DxO and LR5, most of the available RAW conversion tools do not have as rich a set, or none at all, as these two tools have to apply lens profiles. With LR5 you can add your own (clumsily), with DxO you cannot, but you can save your adjustment settings.

Adjusting color corrections, in batch mode, is also slightly different between DxO and LR. DxO is easier in batch mode, LR is more flexibly, especially when developing from RAW.

I tend to use DxO for RAW conversions (with or without PRIME) and then finish in LR if needed.

I tend to use LR for JPG conversions (add sharpening, clarity, pull shadows), for convenience.

Awaiting the firmware update for the A7 tomorrow, see how this changes the flows...

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Digital Nigel
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Re: Developing α7 RAW images
In reply to osv, 9 months ago

osv wrote:

Dandrewk wrote:

Yes, thanks, I did realize that afterwards. I had known about the Prime NR being processor intensive, but thought that the processing occurred while generating the preview, not the actual writing to disk.

the delay is not due to writing the file to disk, what you are waiting for with prime nr is cpu processing... if you look at the running processes on your windows computer, you'll see how hammered the cpu cycles are.

Yes, for example:

DxO Prime uses every available COU cycle, even on an over-clocked machine.

some of the interface issues that i find annoying: when you open a raw file, the program stalls out while it automatically opens up a preview window of every single photo in the same directory... i looked for a setting to change that behavior in the preferences window, but never found it.

Yes, that's very slow if you have hundreds of images in a folder. I tend to make more use of sub-folders so that there aren't too many images in any one folder.

the program also defaults to automatically looking online for a lens profile every time that you open an image, but that can be disabled.

I don't mind that, and haven't disabled it.

i attempted to use dxo's basic functionality as a simple and quick photoshop replacement, but right off the bat i was thrown for a loop with the cropping interface... it's incredibly stupid and non-intuitive, the emphasis appears to be on a few very limited aspect ratio choices... it's easier to crop an image in microsoft paint than it is in dxo.

You can also choose unconstrained cropping, which I often do.

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osv
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Re: Developing α7 RAW images
In reply to Digital Nigel, 9 months ago

Digital Nigel wrote:

osv wrote:

some of the interface issues that i find annoying: when you open a raw file, the program stalls out while it automatically opens up a preview window of every single photo in the same directory... i looked for a setting to change that behavior in the preferences window, but never found it.

Yes, that's very slow if you have hundreds of images in a folder. I tend to make more use of sub-folders so that there aren't too many images in any one folder.

so it can't be disabled? &$(!!%^*# lol

the program also defaults to automatically looking online for a lens profile every time that you open an image, but that can be disabled.

I don't mind that, and haven't disabled it.

it's not an issue with lenses that dxo has profiled, because the program will first look to see if the profile is available locally.

i attempted to use dxo's basic functionality as a simple and quick photoshop replacement, but right off the bat i was thrown for a loop with the cropping interface... it's incredibly stupid and non-intuitive, the emphasis appears to be on a few very limited aspect ratio choices... it's easier to crop an image in microsoft paint than it is in dxo.

You can also choose unconstrained cropping, which I often do.

i think that there is a check box for that, that you have to select every time that you want to use unconstrained? why can't it work like other apps do? just let me select the tool and drag the box, lol

another irritation with dxo is that you need to buy the lens creator(?) software to get full ca capability, if i remember correctly... i paid $180, only to get a grayed-out choice there.

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dan

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probert500
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Re: Developing α7 RAW images - not so sure
In reply to Fritz85, 9 months ago

I don't see more detail in the sony processing - I do see more contrast and sharpening halos.

I'd change the contrast/brighten on the lightroom image and lay off the sharp and see what the results are.  The A7R doesn't have an anti aliasing filter so it's very easy to over do the sharpening - just a gentle touch - whisper vermouth.

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Digital Nigel
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Re: Developing α7 RAW images
In reply to osv, 9 months ago

osv wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

osv wrote:

some of the interface issues that i find annoying: when you open a raw file, the program stalls out while it automatically opens up a preview window of every single photo in the same directory... i looked for a setting to change that behavior in the preferences window, but never found it.

Yes, that's very slow if you have hundreds of images in a folder. I tend to make more use of sub-folders so that there aren't too many images in any one folder.

so it can't be disabled? &$(!!%^*# lol

the program also defaults to automatically looking online for a lens profile every time that you open an image, but that can be disabled.

I don't mind that, and haven't disabled it.

it's not an issue with lenses that dxo has profiled, because the program will first look to see if the profile is available locally.

Yes, I only use DxO with camera/lens combinations that DxO supports.

i attempted to use dxo's basic functionality as a simple and quick photoshop replacement, but right off the bat i was thrown for a loop with the cropping interface... it's incredibly stupid and non-intuitive, the emphasis appears to be on a few very limited aspect ratio choices... it's easier to crop an image in microsoft paint than it is in dxo.

You can also choose unconstrained cropping, which I often do.

i think that there is a check box for that, that you have to select every time that you want to use unconstrained? why can't it work like other apps do? just let me select the tool and drag the box, lol

I don't think it's unreasonable for it to assume you'd like to crop while retaining the current aspect ratio.

another irritation with dxo is that you need to buy the lens creator(?) software to get full ca capability, if i remember correctly... i paid $180, only to get a grayed-out choice there.

I've never heard of the Lens creator software?  What does it do?  Why do you need it?

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Terry L
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Re: Developing α7 RAW images
In reply to jep10, 9 months ago

The RAW file was loaded into DxO for conversion which was done automatically because that is the way the software works. It thinks it knows best! The settings can be manually adjusted to taste, but in this case I let DxO have its own way.

Then I selected PRIME for noise reduction and chose "export to application" [Photoshop] as a DNG and went and had a cup of tea while it went through its process. You wouldn't want to be doing a batch of these, you'd have time for a snooze.

Sadly you have to use the seriously over-priced ELITE version for full frame cameras. This has got to be a deterrent for A7/A7r owners.

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osv
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Re: Developing α7 RAW images
In reply to Digital Nigel, 9 months ago

Digital Nigel wrote:

i think that there is a check box for that, that you have to select every time that you want to use unconstrained? why can't it work like other apps do? just let me select the tool and drag the box, lol

I don't think it's unreasonable for it to assume you'd like to crop while retaining the current aspect ratio.

is it reasonable that the user can't change that assumption?

limiting user choices like that is why this software has a bad rep for usability... it's right up there with not letting the user opt out of previewing every single image on the folder.

another irritation with dxo is that you need to buy the lens creator(?) software to get full ca capability, if i remember correctly... i paid $180, only to get a grayed-out choice there.

I've never heard of the Lens creator software? What does it do? Why do you need it?

as was pointed out earlier, dxo doesn't have any software for creating lens profiles, so there isn't any automatic lateral ca correction capability, among other things... i assumed that viewpoint would let you do it, but no.

this is only an issue for people who use glass that hasn't been profiled by dxo.

thx for your input, it was helpful, at least i now know that i can't get out of that image previewing.

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dan

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osv
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Re: Developing α7 RAW images
In reply to Terry L, 9 months ago

Terry L wrote:

Sadly you have to use the seriously over-priced ELITE version for full frame cameras. This has got to be a deterrent for A7/A7r owners.

it's $300 at the dxo website but currently $199 at b&h.

on 12/29 i paid $179.95 for the downloadable elite version, through b&h.

i wonder if they'll repeat that price.

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dan

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Digital Nigel
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Re: Developing α7 RAW images
In reply to osv, 9 months ago

osv wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

i think that there is a check box for that, that you have to select every time that you want to use unconstrained? why can't it work like other apps do? just let me select the tool and drag the box, lol

I don't think it's unreasonable for it to assume you'd like to crop while retaining the current aspect ratio.

is it reasonable that the user can't change that assumption?

I think there may be a way of changing that default; I'll check tomorrow. I've never tried, as I like the default, and it only takes a second to change it for any image where you want an unconstrained aspect ratio.

limiting user choices like that is why this software has a bad rep for usability... it's right up there with not letting the user opt out of previewing every single image on the folder.

Actually, it might also get a rap if it didn't. I find the performance is OK if you have 200-300 images in a folder, but it's much too slow if you have over 1000, as some of my folders do.

another irritation with dxo is that you need to buy the lens creator(?) software to get full ca capability, if i remember correctly... i paid $180, only to get a grayed-out choice there.

I've never heard of the Lens creator software? What does it do? Why do you need it?

as was pointed out earlier, dxo doesn't have any software for creating lens profiles, so there isn't any automatic lateral ca correction capability, among other things... i assumed that viewpoint would let you do it, but no.

this is only an issue for people who use glass that hasn't been profiled by dxo.

OK, I only use lenses that are in the DxO database.

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JamieTux
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Re: Scene Mode in Lightroom
In reply to stevo23, 9 months ago

JeffGo wrote:

JamieTux wrote:

If you go to the bottom of the lightroom develop panel and choose the similarly named one it will affect the colours, contrasts, highlights and shadows and perceived sharpness in a similar way to the Sony software. Lightroom has no visibility of how your camera was set in terms of that so it defaults to the adobe basic style - which is fairly conservative on all settings.

Actually the scene mode is present in the Exif data, which is how Sony IDC finds it as well. Adobe decided to not automatically apply it to RAW files by default. Adobe Standard is pretty close to what Adobe ships as Camera Standard as far as the Lightroom/ACR profiles are concerned. They just aren't every pretty - no pop.

I almost always go as flat and drab as I can with the scene modes - camera standard but sometimes I pick the ones with lowered contrast / extended tonal range. I much prefer to cook my own images.

I'm always down there using my own colour profiles, you'd be amazed at how many tines red fabrics come out orange and purple cones out blue (with any of the converters) whilst the skin tone looks fine! The worst I had was a coat that looked green or purple depending on the light and it was incredibly difficult to colour match without making the model look like an alien or reptile! - that coat convinced me to get a colorchecker passport and I've been making (and tweaking ) my own profiles ever since.
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Dandrewk
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Re: Scene Mode in Lightroom
In reply to JamieTux, 9 months ago

I use my own color profiles as well, using X-rite ColorChecker Passport:

http://www.amazon.com/X-Rite-MSCCPP-ColorChecker-Passport/dp/B002NU5UW8

It's simple and fast.  Whenever I get a new camera, it's the first thing I do.  Take a snap of the included color checker and the software does the rest, even importing the profile where ACR, etc. can find it.  I create three profiles - one outdoors on a sunny day, one outdoors on an overcast day, and one indoors.

I've found these to be very accurate compared to the default profiles.  If I want to make everything more vivid, that's easy to do outside the profile.

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Dandrewk
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Re: Developing α7 RAW images
In reply to Digital Nigel, 9 months ago

When exporting from DxO, etc. to LR, is it best to use TIFF or DNG, or does it matter?

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osv
osv
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Re: Developing α7 RAW images
In reply to Dandrewk, 9 months ago

i believe that dng is a non-destructive format, since it's raw, while the changes you make to a tiff stay that way, you can't go back to zero again.

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Digital Nigel
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Re: Developing α7 RAW images
In reply to Dandrewk, 9 months ago

Dandrewk wrote:

When exporting from DxO, etc. to LR, is it best to use TIFF or DNG, or does it matter?

I don't think it matters. I use 16-bit TIFFs, as they're a lossless, non-proprietary format, readable by any photo editor program. I think DNG is also lossless, but probably even more bulky, and less widely readable. In either cas, you can delete the intermediate TIFF/DNG file once you've produced the final JPEG, providing you keep the ARW file.

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stevo23
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Re: Scene Mode in Lightroom
In reply to JamieTux, 9 months ago

JamieTux wrote:

JeffGo wrote:

JamieTux wrote:

If you go to the bottom of the lightroom develop panel and choose the similarly named one it will affect the colours, contrasts, highlights and shadows and perceived sharpness in a similar way to the Sony software. Lightroom has no visibility of how your camera was set in terms of that so it defaults to the adobe basic style - which is fairly conservative on all settings.

Actually the scene mode is present in the Exif data, which is how Sony IDC finds it as well. Adobe decided to not automatically apply it to RAW files by default. Adobe Standard is pretty close to what Adobe ships as Camera Standard as far as the Lightroom/ACR profiles are concerned. They just aren't every pretty - no pop.

I almost always go as flat and drab as I can with the scene modes - camera standard but sometimes I pick the ones with lowered contrast / extended tonal range. I much prefer to cook my own images.

I'm always down there using my own colour profiles, you'd be amazed at how many tines red fabrics come out orange and purple cones out blue (with any of the converters) whilst the skin tone looks fine! The worst I had was a coat that looked green or purple depending on the light and it was incredibly difficult to colour match without making the model look like an alien or reptile! - that coat convinced me to get a colorchecker passport and I've been making (and tweaking ) my own profiles ever since.

And don't get me started about my D600 and red flowers! Geez - over saturated no matter what you do. Dot gain looked like a pomegranate splatted in my sink!

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Digital Nigel
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Re: Developing α7 RAW images
In reply to osv, 9 months ago

osv wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

i think that there is a check box for that, that you have to select every time that you want to use unconstrained? why can't it work like other apps do? just let me select the tool and drag the box, lol

I don't think it's unreasonable for it to assume you'd like to crop while retaining the current aspect ratio.

is it reasonable that the user can't change that assumption?

OK, I've now checked, and can confirm that you can change the default crop behaviour. If you prefer it to be unconstrained, just save that configuration in your default preset. To set it, open the Crop box in the Essential Tools palette, then save (from the Image menu) that any other changed settings in your default preset.

It seems to me that people who've used DxO for a while, and customised it to suit their tastes, like the UI, whereas those who just use the default settings often don't.

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Digital Nigel
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Re: Developing α7 RAW images
In reply to Digital Nigel, 9 months ago

I've now checked, and the suffix can be up to 25 characters (I don't know why it's limited to 25 chars). It's added after the file name.

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