NX20 and NX30 - ISO capabilities (nearly) unchanged!?

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Matt Everglade
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NX20 and NX30 - ISO capabilities (nearly) unchanged!?
4 months ago

Hi,

I just made a quick test using my NX20 and my NX30. I tested the ISO capabilities of both cameras using the same settings. The result is that there is no enhancement since I can't see a any noticeable difference between the two cameras.

You can check it yourself here: http://matteverglade.com/cameras/rolling-review-samsung-nx30/
Just look at the pictures in the chapter "High ISO" and tell me what you think.
(For some reason the images of the NX30 are slightly brighter, seems the camera captures a bit more light...)

I agree, that the examples are not the best, but would another subject really give a change in the ISO capabilities? I think: No. For me this is a (bad) surprise. Please let me know your opinions and experiences. Thank you.

Kind regards,
Matt

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arbuz
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Re: NX20 and NX30 - ISO capabilities (nearly) unchanged!?
In reply to Matt Everglade, 4 months ago

I likke your review however Your ISO test is not correct. I have both NX20 and NX300 and NX300 has visibly better ISO and much different noise structure (less color noise, more paint like strcuture).

Looking at your samples there is a noticeable difference in exposure - NX20 produced darket tone. Arte you shure that aperture ISO and shutter weer the same in both cases?

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Matt Everglade
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Re: NX20 and NX30 - ISO capabilities (nearly) unchanged!?
In reply to arbuz, 4 months ago

Yes, the exposure settings are the same, you can check the EXIF data.

Example ISO 100: Both pictures had a shutter speed of 1/2 sec and an aperture of 2.8. Actually I got +0.3EV on the NX20 and the NX30 told me it's -0.3EV, but you can't change the EV when all settings are fixed.

I'll do another test tomorrow and I hope there went something wrong today, but it doesn't seem like that for now.

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ttbek
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Re: NX20 and NX30 - ISO capabilities (nearly) unchanged!?
In reply to Matt Everglade, 4 months ago

Hmm, does Lightroom 5 have different profiling of the two cameras (maybe it's the white balance that's different?)?  The brightness difference is bothering me...  Seems kind of weird to me, I prefer the NX20 shots there, the darks on the NX30 look immediately muddy to me.  My initial impression of the NX300 sensor though was that it was the NX20 sensor with the major addition being the PDAF, I never had an NX20 though, so I've never looked at people's comparisons critically, so I don't actually know if the noise was better or not.

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jennyrae
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Re: NX20 and NX30 - ISO capabilities (nearly) unchanged!?
In reply to Matt Everglade, 4 months ago

0.6 difference in exposure looks like. NX30 appear better from what I see. a bit cleaner and define detail.

maybe when doing test is shoot manual exposure. use example with fine detail like clothing or with weave fabric. set metering to spot and take only center part of picture for evaluative comparison. use 30mm lens. use same aperture and shutterspeed. be critical of lightsource and white balance because can affect appearance of result. if you see difference in brightness between two pictures, add another adjusted exposure 3rd picture to match the NX30 picture like pushing exposure of NX20 to same brightness appearance of NX30. to see if quality is same. but if 0.6 exposure exists, that is very good. meaning faster shutter speed and show slight improvement in DR and ISO range.

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pixelpushing
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A comment on your test page...
In reply to Matt Everglade, 4 months ago

I think bears posting here:

Thanx for the test. Really appreciate.
Possibly you’ll be attaced by “experts” on dpreview.
Ignore them. Your test is good enough to show that there is no difference in nose performance between the two cameras.
There is however, contrast difference. NX30 seems to be more contrasty, hence the difference in perceived brightness. I would also speculate that nx30 has slightly different UV / IR filter.
You could easily figure out which spectrum UV or IR is different by looking for instance on CA footprint.
Eric (the guy on dpreview) said that NX30 is sharper than previous NX cameras but i do not see any sharpness difference. I see only contrast difference.

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ttbek
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Re: A comment on your test page...
In reply to pixelpushing, 4 months ago

pixelpushing wrote:

I think bears posting here:

Hmm, I read it on there, here's my reply to it on here I guess.

Thanx for the test. Really appreciate.
Possibly you’ll be attaced by “experts” on dpreview.

Those of us on dpreview also appreciate the time taken to provide these shots. Attacked.., not really, scrutinized, absolutely.  Experts... never claimed any such thing, I think most people on here just do their best to be discerning.

Ignore them. Your test is good enough to show that there is no difference in nose performance between the two cameras.

I agree, absolutely no difference in nose performance, the photos from both cameras smell exactly the same ^_^.  We were speaking of noise performance though...

There is however, contrast difference. NX30 seems to be more contrasty

Is it really?  I don't have an NX30, and thus not much experience with it's output, but to me it doesn't appear to have more contrast.  That is, the brights are brighter... but the darks are brighter too... This is why I think there may be some difference in the white balance.

, hence the difference in perceived brightness. I would also speculate that nx30 has slightly different UV / IR filter.

Hmm, certainly possible.

You could easily figure out which spectrum UV or IR is different by looking for instance on CA footprint.
Eric (the guy on dpreview) said that NX30 is sharper than previous NX cameras but i do not see any sharpness difference. I see only contrast difference.

Hmm, Eric usual has his stuff straight, maybe we should dig deeper, I would post comparisons, but I have no NX30, or 20 for that matter, just the 300.  I do notice more detail in the high iso shots of the NX30.  This is probably also true at low isos, but it's just less of an apparent difference.

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Usee
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Re: NX20 and NX30 - ISO capabilities (nearly) unchanged!?
In reply to Matt Everglade, 4 months ago

Viscacha wrote:

Hi,

I just made a quick test using my NX20 and my NX30. I tested the ISO capabilities of both cameras using the same settings. The result is that there is no enhancement since I can't see a any noticeable difference between the two cameras.

You can check it yourself here: http://matteverglade.com/cameras/rolling-review-samsung-nx30/
Just look at the pictures in the chapter "High ISO" and tell me what you think.
(For some reason the images of the NX30 are slightly brighter, seems the camera captures a bit more light...)

I agree, that the examples are not the best, but would another subject really give a change in the ISO capabilities? I think: No. For me this is a (bad) surprise. Please let me know your opinions and experiences. Thank you.

Kind regards,
Matt

Well, better no test, than a quick test, which is prone to errors.

However, I'm happy that you are willing to make the effort to compare, which is good.

Since different cameras deliver different contrast curves and therefore a different brightness through the whole scene, one has to normalize the brightness (the contrast curves) to the same level, when comparing.

Thus it is helpful to use something like a color checker with different gray patches from very dark to really bright and to match the brightness of the patches in post processing, before comparing.

Otherwise a difference of one EV can be hidden.

I think it is more useful at the moment to just use the camera and wait for DxO, instead of drawing conclusions from uncertain data.

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Vygi
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Re: NX20 and NX30 - ISO capabilities (nearly) unchanged!?
In reply to Matt Everglade, 4 months ago

I have Nx20 and Nx30, too.

My own experiences are:

  • high-ISO picture quality of NX30 is indeed not much better than NX20 at ISO 800-3200. But still better! The difference is more visible at ISO 6400 and above.
  • Autofocus of NX30 is *much* better in the low-light environment; both faster and more precise, and it helps to make good shots. So they are better not only because of better ISO capabilities.
  • For some reason, NX20 auto white balance was better in some cases when shooting at home (compact fluorescent lamp)
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arbuz
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Re: NX20 and NX30 - ISO capabilities (nearly) unchanged!?
In reply to Matt Everglade, 4 months ago

Viscacha wrote:

Yes, the exposure settings are the same, you can check the EXIF data.

Example ISO 100: Both pictures had a shutter speed of 1/2 sec and an aperture of 2.8. Actually I got +0.3EV on the NX20 and the NX30 told me it's -0.3EV, but you can't change the EV when all settings are fixed.

I'll do another test tomorrow and I hope there went something wrong today, but it doesn't seem like that for now.

OK, so maybe please add this information to the review and repeat the test using the same exposure value? I'm surprised there is a difference in mettering.

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jennyrae
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Re: NX20 and NX30 - ISO capabilities (nearly) unchanged!?
In reply to Vygi, 4 months ago

when say *not much better* but still better, you mean *not big improvement* but have improvement to a degree? yes?

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Matt Everglade
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Re: NX20 and NX30 - ISO capabilities (nearly) unchanged!?
In reply to Matt Everglade, 4 months ago

Thank you for the replies.I'd like to add that the white balance was the same on all shots so this is not the reason for the different brightness.

I made another attempt. I shot three photos:

  1. NX20
  2. NX30 with a comparable brightness than NX20 but a changed shutter speed
  3. NX30 with the same settings but as a result a different brightness than the NX20

For ISO 100 the NX20 had a shutter speed of 1 second and the NX30 with a comparable brightness needed only 0.6 seconds. So there is a difference of 0.6 EV! Considering this I could choose a lower ISO for the same shot which should result in a better ISO performance. I'll update the article tonight...

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arbuz
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Re: A comment on your test page...
In reply to pixelpushing, 4 months ago

Ignore them. Your test is good enough to show that there is no difference in nose performance between the two cameras.

Ignore everyone that has different opinion.

NX20 has the same noise performance as NX210. One can use dp comparison tool so see if there is noise difference between NX210 and NX300. There are plenty of samples on other sites e.g. imaging resource has full raw images taken in studio conditions. ere is also DXO test.

But no - one amateur test trumps it all. Everything else can be ignored. You don't even have both cameras to make such claims.

There is however, contrast difference. NX30 seems to be more contrasty,

Maybe there is a contract difference but for sure there is a brightness difference. Whole image is brighter, while contrast difference should brighten bright sparts and darken dark parts.

Eric (the guy on dpreview) said that NX30 is sharper than previous NX cameras but i do not see any sharpness difference. I see only contrast difference.

Look again and see brightness difference.

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Vygi
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Re: NX20 and NX30 - ISO capabilities (nearly) unchanged!?
In reply to jennyrae, 4 months ago

jennyrae wrote:

when say *not much better* but still better, you mean *not big improvement* but have improvement to a degree? yes?

yes, that's right. there is definitely an improvement compared to NX20. Mostly not only less noisy but also subjectively (?) better contrast, and better sharpness after applying noise reduction.

And, the NX30 really produces slightly brighter images by default! Looks almost like the NX20 would apply lower ISO to minimize noise. This noise is less visible on the dark photos.

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Re: NX20 and NX30 - ISO capabilities (nearly) unchanged!?
In reply to Matt Everglade, 4 months ago

I do a lot with the NX20. I find it normally under exposes by 1/3 stop so I have compensation dialled in permanently.

I've posted up someNX20 jpegs shot 'as is' straight out of the camera without any compensation or processing. These were shot last year in southern Spain if anybody wants them for test. Top 2 are done on the 30mm. The bottom is the 18-55.

'If the enemy is in range..so are you!

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jennyrae
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Re: NX20 and NX30 - ISO capabilities (nearly) unchanged!?
In reply to Matt Everglade, 4 months ago

thank you for your time and effort and just visit your site again and saw new test just now. impression is that NX30 has slightly bit more headroom and appear to render better retention of detail as iso get higher, aside from being brighter. I do not see much difference in contrast in similar brightness level but see difference slightly in detail retention when iso levels is compared with brightness equivalent in your test.

however, I am curious to see using same bunny pictures of NX20 at different ISO to have exposure adjusted to same brightness level as NX30 using Lightroom.

my opinion on matter is that contrast or detail difference is negligible. however due to pushing of darker picture of NX20, worse scenario I see more increased amount of chroma noise as already showing in NX20 pictures compared to brighter NX30 pictures. but considering brightness difference of 3/5, maybe noise appearance not too much or just same as NX30.

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ttbek
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Re: NX20 and NX30 - ISO capabilities (nearly) unchanged!?
In reply to Matt Everglade, 4 months ago

Viscacha wrote:

Thank you for the replies.I'd like to add that the white balance was the same on all shots so this is not the reason for the different brightness.

Mmk, just to be clear, I wasn't questioning any white balance that you applied, but if Lightroom works some voodoo in the background by default that may be different between the two cameras (e.g. like how I've heard they do lens corrections that can't be turned off for some lenses and you would need to look with another raw program to see the file uncorrected).

If the NX30 shots are coming out brighter and Adobe doesn't have their fingers in the pot, than that's all the better!

I made another attempt. I shot three photos:

  1. NX20
  2. NX30 with a comparable brightness than NX20 but a changed shutter speed
  3. NX30 with the same settings but as a result a different brightness than the NX20

For ISO 100 the NX20 had a shutter speed of 1 second and the NX30 with a comparable brightness needed only 0.6 seconds. So there is a difference of 0.6 EV! Considering this I could choose a lower ISO for the same shot which should result in a better ISO performance. I'll update the article tonight...

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pixelpushing
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Re: A comment on your test page...
In reply to arbuz, 4 months ago

arbuz wrote:

Ignore them. Your test is good enough to show that there is no difference in nose performance between the two cameras.

Ignore everyone that has different opinion.

First off, I didn't write that, I posted it here because I think he has a point.

Second, I believe the point he's making is to ignore self-appointed experts with more agenda to voice than test data. And I agree.

NX20 has the same noise performance as NX210. One can use dp comparison tool so see if there is noise difference between NX210 and NX300. There are plenty of samples on other sites e.g. imaging resource has full raw images taken in studio conditions. ere is also DXO test.

Yes, but what's that got to do with the NX30 or this guy's test?

But no - one amateur test trumps it all. Everything else can be ignored. You don't even have both cameras to make such claims.

I'm not making claims. And nobody is saying this test 'trumps' anything, including the person that made it.

There is however, contrast difference. NX30 seems to be more contrasty,

Maybe there is a contract difference but for sure there is a brightness difference. Whole image is brighter, while contrast difference should brighten bright sparts and darken dark parts.

As has been noted.

Eric (the guy on dpreview) said that NX30 is sharper than previous NX cameras but i do not see any sharpness difference. I see only contrast difference.

Look again and see brightness difference.

There could be some UV filter effect going on, too. As has been posited.

Nobody is saying there's zero difference at the pixel level, but I think that even this test establishes that, if there is any, it's pretty small. Apparently, possibly less than the 2/3+ EV that some have been talking about.

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pixelpushing
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Re: A comment on your test page...
In reply to ttbek, 4 months ago

ttbek wrote:

pixelpushing wrote:

I think bears posting here:

Hmm, I read it on there, here's my reply to it on here I guess.

Thanx for the test. Really appreciate.
Possibly you’ll be attaced by “experts” on dpreview.

Those of us on dpreview also appreciate the time taken to provide these shots. Attacked.., not really, scrutinized, absolutely. Experts... never claimed any such thing, I think most people on here just do their best to be discerning.

You're pretty fair, and I for one don't feel you have more agenda than data (even though we disagree on Android vs. Tizen). Doubt the thread commenter in question meant you. He's probably reading this, now.

That said, a few other folks do sometimes trend a bit more to attitude and assertion vs. hypothesizing, data finding and using the scientific method. Again, that not being you -IMO. Cheers.

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Matt Everglade
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Re: NX20 and NX30 - ISO capabilities (nearly) unchanged!?
In reply to jennyrae, 4 months ago

jennyrae wrote:

thank you for your time and effort and just visit your site again and saw new test just now.

Yes, I updated the test several times today.

impression is that NX30 has slightly bit more headroom and appear to render better retention of detail as iso get higher, aside from being brighter. I do not see much difference in contrast in similar brightness level but see difference slightly in detail retention when iso levels is compared with brightness equivalent in your test.

I don't see much difference at all. Nothing that would have a real impact in practical usage.

however, I am curious to see using same bunny pictures of NX20 at different ISO to have exposure adjusted to same brightness level as NX30 using Lightroom.

Why would someone want to do this instead of a normal exposed image?

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