Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?

Started 5 months ago | Discussions
Ramius
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Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
5 months ago

Thus far, Sony has only released four lenses for the A7 cameras. And they have the nerve to present the camera at the Photography Show with APS-C mounted lenses: http://www.dpreview.com/news/2014/03/06/the-photography-show-2014-tidbits-from-the-show-floor/10

Is this not a clear indication that the selection of FE optics is too limited? When they should have been presenting new FE lenses, they must instead present the camera with the newest in crop lenses instead. To me, this almost admitting that despite the camera being good, there is a lack of support for it.

The A7 still feels new. But it was actually released in november last year. Thats nearly five months ago. And despite the thing selling out like hot cakes, no third party lens manufacturer has announced anything for the FE mount.

Should they not have done so by now? I think its a bit wierd that big brand Sony is announcing such a good, expensive and revolutionary camera, but yet they have no cooperation with brands like Sigma, Tamron or Voigtlander to offer more choices in the FE-line.

This is a professional grade camera, and professionals need options. There has been several photography expos, shows and events they could have used to present FE optics on, but still they have not. How long is it going to take?

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JurijTurnsek
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Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
In reply to Ramius, 5 months ago

A large user base of APS-C cameras on one side and an emerging user base for FF cameras. How do you please both at the same time? You can't expect Sony to dish out new lenses so fast, because Sony is after quality.

Sony posted the roadmap and you all knew what you bought into. Now deal with it. You can either be happy with what you got or bitch about what you knew was not coming anyway.

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Astrophotographer 10
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Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
In reply to JurijTurnsek, 5 months ago

I think Sony is progressing fairly well. The 24-70 is out now and the 70-200 sounds like its close to being shipped. After that no real word.

Its very similar to how Fuji was about a year ago. They steadily released lenses. It seems like it takes a few months per lens at an average.

I think we would rather they get it right than rush it out and its bugged.

Greg.

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spaspa
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Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
In reply to JurijTurnsek, 5 months ago

The picture in the link you shared is presentation of Zeiss not the Sony one so I would not consider it as |indication of something.

for sure lens selection is narrow - as I would expect for FE released few months ago. I think the Sony announced 5 lenses with another 10 not specified in 2014 and 2015 - so actual situation should not be big surprise....

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Ramius
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Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
In reply to JurijTurnsek, 5 months ago

JurijTurnsek wrote:

A large user base of APS-C cameras on one side and an emerging user base for FF cameras. How do you please both at the same time? You can't expect Sony to dish out new lenses so fast, because Sony is after quality.

Sony posted the roadmap and you all knew what you bought into. Now deal with it. You can either be happy with what you got or bitch about what you knew was not coming anyway.

That roadmap turned out to be false. It told us that the 24-70mm would launch with the camera. So did the press release about the cameras, which told us it would launch with three prime lenses. Instead, only the 35mm was available at launch. Along with the kit lens. The 55mm came later. The 24-70mm didnt even come that year.

But remember that this roadmap is only for their own lenses. Im making this thread about the whole FE range. Where other manufacturers should be offering lenses too. If you look at other sides of the consumer electronics business - Sony does not launch a new Playstation without communicating with third party studios and letting them start working on games before release. I wish they would have done so with this camera and and lenses as well.

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tn1krr
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Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
In reply to Ramius, 5 months ago

Ramius wrote:

Thus far, Sony has only released four lenses for the A7 cameras. And they have the nerve to present the camera at the Photography Show with APS-C mounted lenses: http://www.dpreview.com/news/2014/03/06/the-photography-show-2014-tidbits-from-the-show-floor/10

Is this not a clear indication that the selection of FE optics is too limited? When they should have been presenting new FE lenses, they must instead present the camera with the newest in crop lenses instead. To me, this almost admitting that despite the camera being good, there is a lack of support for it.

They could have been faster, but IMO Sony has been pretty smart (their profit-wize) about product launches in last few years, for example. These in addition that it actually takes time to develop quality products

- they released RX1R/shipped enough before A7(R) that they managed to sell pile of those without A7(R) killing the sales

- A6000 did not come same time as A7 so that 1st customers / holiday market did not choose to take "50% cheaper APS-C with same 24 megapixels and better AF..."

- lens release schedule for FE mount does bit of same. They want to give 24-70 time in market before telling us what's next. And would the 35 have sold as much if 24-70 was available immediately? If we got 55 and 85 immediately I'd bet many would have taken only 85. I'd quess the next lineup will be announced after the first few batches of 70-200/4 have shipped. They do not want people skipping 70-200 to wait for 85 or 105 macro instead.

The A7 still feels new. But it was actually released in november last year. Thats nearly five months ago. And despite the thing selling out like hot cakes, no third party lens manufacturer has announced anything for the FE mount.

Should they not have done so by now? I think its a bit wierd that big brand Sony is announcing such a good, expensive and revolutionary camera, but yet they have no cooperation with brands like Sigma, Tamron or Voigtlander to offer more choices in the FE-line.

This is a professional grade camera, and professionals need options. There has been several photography expos, shows and events they could have used to present FE optics on, but still they have not. How long is it going to take?

For a "generic pro" what is missing after 70-200 ships? An UWA zoom, a longer portrait prime and a macro? Roadmap lists them next, right? For longer tele one would take LA-EA4 + Alpha mount anyway for faster AF and some pro users are already shooting 70-200/2.8 on LA-EA4 (Frank Doorhof for example)

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4Motioner
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Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
In reply to Ramius, 5 months ago

I think you need to be patient. I'm a bit frustrated by the lack of lenses as well, especially since most of the FE lenses available carry the Zeiss logo and thus also the Zeiss price tag. I think we need to remember the developing a lens is quite complicated and 5 months is not a very long time to do that. I'm hoping Sony will take some of the FF Alpha lenses and make new FE versions of them, especially some fast primes and a non-zess 24-70mm f2.8 zoom.

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quezra
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Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
In reply to Ramius, 5 months ago

How soon would you expect third party makers to climb aboard a new mount?  They need to gauge public reception before they start designing lenses.  So there will definitely be a time lag before production and Sigma have already said they'd be interested but its not their current priority - and if there's no great demand, they may surmise it's just not worth it.  To this day, there are no AF third party lenses for EOS-M, Nikon 1, Fuji X and Samsung NX.  Samyang lenses are SLR-registration lenses with extensions for mirrorless and fully manual, and even I don't think they've made adapted lenses for those mounts. They have said they're looking to make AF E-mount lenses though. Sigma only recycled lens designs that it was planning to stick onto its DP cameras anyway, and even then they didn't bother to add onto FujiX, EOS-M or Samsung NX, just stuck with m4/3 and Sony.

As for Sony's own rollout, the 5 original lenses are just about all out (last one coming), and 5 more should be announced this year and 5 more in 2015.  So that gives them 8 months to announce the next batch.  I don't think I've ever seen a system launch as ambitious as Sony's in fact.  Fuji had just 3 primes at launch before it came out with a zoom.  Panasonic came out with 2 zooms, NEX with a zoom and a prime, etc.

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Ramius
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Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
In reply to tn1krr, 5 months ago

Its clear that there is no wide angles available at all. People have been making countless threads about this already. Even though its good Samyang is offering FE lenses, I think its a turnoff for many that these are only reworked DSLR-lenses. And what about pancake wide angles?

Whats else missing? A better standard zoom for sure, with F2.8 or higher. And more zooms, like a 16-35 or 16-50mm. My collegues in the press is using their 16-35mm more than any other lens.

Cheaper alternatives from third party manufacturers is also a must. When Sony/Zeiss is the only one making lenses in the FE range now, we have no choice but to buy the most expensive lenses possible.

A better tele lens is also missing. For most photojournalists using tele lenses, 200mm is too small. There should be 400mm available. And even higher. My collegues do not even consider buying the A7 because of the lack of tele lenses.

And in this field, brands like Tamron have made exceptionally good tele lenses for a cheap price. That Sony has later copied. Like their 18-200mm. For people like me, the price of the 200mm G-lens will be too expensive to even consider buying. Both Tamron and Sigma has also shown that they can outperform first party primes with much cheaper alternatives while keeping the same quality.

Take for instance Tamrons 24-70mm versus Canons 24-70mm: http://learningcameras.com/reviews/7-lenses/104-tamron-24-70-f28-vc-vs-canon-24-70-f4l-is

Sigma and Tamron both have expertise on making lenses in a different way, that more people can afford, without sacrificing quality. Their expertise is currently not represented in the FE market. And that is a weakness I dont think anyone can disagree with. More options and competition the better right?

Im just saying they should have been a part of the movement earlier. Now we´re probably going to have to wait a year or more before they release something. Im sure as hell am not going to buy a Touit lens from Zeiss thats more expensive than the camera and currently doesnt even support full frame.

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Mel Snyder
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Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
In reply to Ramius, 5 months ago

Ramius wrote:

JurijTurnsek wrote:

A large user base of APS-C cameras on one side and an emerging user base for FF cameras. How do you please both at the same time? You can't expect Sony to dish out new lenses so fast, because Sony is after quality.

Sony posted the roadmap and you all knew what you bought into. Now deal with it. You can either be happy with what you got or bitch about what you knew was not coming anyway.

That roadmap turned out to be false. It told us that the 24-70mm would launch with the camera. So did the press release about the cameras, which told us it would launch with three prime lenses. Instead, only the 35mm was available at launch. Along with the kit lens. The 55mm came later. The 24-70mm didnt even come that year.

But remember that this roadmap is only for their own lenses. Im making this thread about the whole FE range. Where other manufacturers should be offering lenses too. If you look at other sides of the consumer electronics business - Sony does not launch a new Playstation without communicating with third party studios and letting them start working on games before release. I wish they would have done so with this camera and and lenses as well.

Which A7/r do you own?

There are thousands of lenses for both the A7 and the A7r, and those of us who actually own the cameras have had NO lens-imposed limits to their use. I shot all weekend with lenses from 17mm to 90mm under a wide range of conditions, and I never missed any opportunity for lack of a lens.

Oh, you say those thousands of available lenses are legacy MFs - you were talking about AF/AE/OSS lenses? Ones you can point at a scene and press the shutter and the lens and camera do all the thinking for you?

This may come as a shock to you, but new product launches are not 100% under a manufacturer's control and demand for new models is not wholly forecastable. You slam Sony for not launching the 24-70 "in the same year" when you define that year as the calendar year - which gave Sony just one month after camera launch!

As for third party lens manufacturers, Sony skimmed Sigma out of the market by offering the easy primes itself. Sales of the 18-200 sold by both Sony and Tamron for NEX cameras didn't exactly fly off the shelves. So I'm sure neither Sigma nor Tamron were willing to invest in developing lenses for an unproven second Sony E-mount line until demand was proven.

My guess is you don't own either A7.

Go back to the M43 forum. They are afloat with lenses for their little sensors.

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tn1krr
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Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
In reply to Ramius, 5 months ago

Ramius wrote:

Its clear that there is no wide angles available at all. People have been making countless threads about this already. Even though its good Samyang is offering FE lenses, I think its a turnoff for many that these are only reworked DSLR-lenses. And what about pancake wide angles?

Whats else missing? A better standard zoom for sure, with F2.8 or higher. And more zooms, like a 16-35 or 16-50mm. My collegues in the press is using their 16-35mm more than any other lens.

Best quess is that the UWA zoom in next announcement is about 16-35/4. A F/2.8 standard zoom is so big that why not just use LA-EA4 and existing Alpha lenses? 3rd party options available too.

Cheaper alternatives from third party manufacturers is also a must. When Sony/Zeiss is the only one making lenses in the FE range now, we have no choice but to buy the most expensive lenses possible.

Zeiss has confirmed they will release 3 manual primes for FE this year. But they are quite likely planning release schedule with Sony so that they will not compete. Other than that Sony has no control over 3rd parties so lenses will come when/if the FE cameras have enough traction.

A better tele lens is also missing. For most photojournalists using tele lenses, 200mm is too small. There should be 400mm available. And even higher. My collegues do not even consider buying the A7 because of the lack of tele lenses.

A tele beyond 200 mm will be so big that there is on compactness advantage so just use LA-EA4 adapter and A mount lens. 3rd party options available.

And in this field, brands like Tamron have made exceptionally good tele lenses for a cheap price. That Sony has later copied. Like their 18-200mm. For people like me, the price of the 200mm G-lens will be too expensive to even consider buying. Both Tamron and Sigma has also shown that they can outperform first party primes with much cheaper alternatives while keeping the same quality.

Take for instance Tamrons 24-70mm versus Canons 24-70mm: http://learningcameras.com/reviews/7-lenses/104-tamron-24-70-f28-vc-vs-canon-24-70-f4l-is

Sigma and Tamron both have expertise on making lenses in a different way, that more people can afford, without sacrificing quality. Their expertise is currently not represented in the FE market. And that is a weakness I dont think anyone can disagree with. More options and competition the better right?
Im just saying they should have been a part of the movement earlier. Now we´re probably going to have to wait a year or more before they release something.

Sigma and Tamron will come when/if they see the market worth going to. If you think Sony should have gone to them before launch with specs and asked/bribed them to develop lenses then I think your idea differs with the commercial interest of Sony lens developement.

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Mel Snyder
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Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
In reply to quezra, 5 months ago

quezra wrote:

How soon would you expect third party makers to climb aboard a new mount? They need to gauge public reception before they start designing lenses. So there will definitely be a time lag before production and Sigma have already said they'd be interested but its not their current priority - and if there's no great demand, they may surmise it's just not worth it. To this day, there are no AF third party lenses for EOS-M, Nikon 1, Fuji X and Samsung NX. Samyang lenses are SLR-registration lenses with extensions for mirrorless and fully manual, and even I don't think they've made adapted lenses for those mounts. They have said they're looking to make AF E-mount lenses though. Sigma only recycled lens designs that it was planning to stick onto its DP cameras anyway, and even then they didn't bother to add onto FujiX, EOS-M or Samsung NX, just stuck with m4/3 and Sony.

As for Sony's own rollout, the 5 original lenses are just about all out (last one coming), and 5 more should be announced this year and 5 more in 2015. So that gives them 8 months to announce the next batch. I don't think I've ever seen a system launch as ambitious as Sony's in fact. Fuji had just 3 primes at launch before it came out with a zoom. Panasonic came out with 2 zooms, NEX with a zoom and a prime, etc.

This guy is just a troll. He wants a 70-200 f4 AF/OSS lens that's cheaper than $1500, with a 24-70 f4 selling for $1200?

He talks about his pro "friends" not willing to buy into FF until there is a lot of lenses available at cheap prices. What more do you need to see - the Olympus MFT camera hanging from his neck?

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Ramius
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Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
In reply to quezra, 5 months ago

Well like I said, I was kind of hoping the third partys would have been on board since the start. And the fact that they are still not on board is a big limitation. Sony could have just given them the specs and let them create at least one lens each.

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quezra
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Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
In reply to Ramius, 5 months ago

Ramius wrote:

Well like I said, I was kind of hoping the third partys would have been on board since the start. And the fact that they are still not on board is a big limitation. Sony could have just given them the specs and let them create at least one lens each.

Well then your expectations are unrealistic.  There is a third party maker on board from the start.  They're called Zeiss.  You want cheap superzoom for the A7 (if your 18-200 request is anything to go by), but such a lens makes no sense on high quality FF sensors - Sony already got burned making too many superzooms for APS-C E-mount when their market should really have been primes (which they finally got round to in the second and third years of the NEX).

I suggest you have buyer's remorse.  Sell your A7 and get a Canon SL1 with Tamron 18-300 and be done with it.

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tn1krr
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Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
In reply to 4Motioner, 5 months ago

4Motioner wrote:

I'm hoping Sony will take some of the FF Alpha lenses and make new FE versions of them, especially some fast primes and a non-zess 24-70mm f2.8 zoom.

Would not bet on that. Alpha lenses are PDAF optimized with way bigger registration distance so there is not much one can copy from them. And then there is size, the F/2.8 FF standard zoom is very big, the Sony Zeiss 24-70/2.8 (no OSS) weights over 2x more than the 24-70/4 OSS. No escaping physics here, that stop from 4 to 2.8 takes a lot of glass.

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Ramius
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Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
In reply to tn1krr, 5 months ago

Bribed them? So you think third party support for your product is a negative thing?

If anything, that makes the road to success and even shorter. I think your thinking is very proprietary and outdated. The more support, the better. How can you possibly argue against this? Infact, Sony already does this with other products, like their Playstation.

And judging by the responses here, I see there are alot of hobby photographers here who doesnt quite understand how professional photography works. Its good with adapters and and the option of using legacy lenses.

But that stuff is completely out of the question for many professionals. Taking black and white pictures of cathedrals with your Leica lenses in your hollidays is one thing. But for people working with their cameras you need full cooperation between your lens and camera, complete autofocus, exif data and all.

Compactness is not the only advantage of the A7 cameras. There are many other more important reasons for professional photographers to buy these.

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Mel Snyder
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Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
In reply to quezra, 5 months ago

quezra wrote:

Ramius wrote:

Well like I said, I was kind of hoping the third partys would have been on board since the start. And the fact that they are still not on board is a big limitation. Sony could have just given them the specs and let them create at least one lens each.

Well then your expectations are unrealistic. There is a third party maker on board from the start. They're called Zeiss. You want cheap superzoom for the A7 (if your 18-200 request is anything to go by), but such a lens makes no sense on high quality FF sensors - Sony already got burned making too many superzooms for APS-C E-mount when their market should really have been primes (which they finally got round to in the second and third years of the NEX).

I suggest you have buyer's remorse. Sell your A7 and get a Canon SL1 with Tamron 18-300 and be done with it.

He doesn't own an A7 - that reference was inserted by the forum on his first post - it's not his "gear list." His first post was a week ago.

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Ramius
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Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
In reply to Mel Snyder, 5 months ago

Seriously? Is it normal for adults in the US to behave like you? Just found this button.

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quezra
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Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
In reply to Ramius, 5 months ago

Ramius wrote:

Its clear that there is no wide angles available at all.

A WA was on Sony's original FE roadmap from day 1.  It is just not in the original 5 lenses announced and they haven't revealed the actual focal length of it yet.

People have been making countless threads about this already. Even though its good Samyang is offering FE lenses, I think its a turnoff for many that these are only reworked DSLR-lenses. And what about pancake wide angles?

Pancakes tend to work best with cameras that have larger registration distances.  Unfortunately, Sony's has a very thin registration so you end up with glass like the 35/2.8 which is probably as small as it gets.  If you want a pancake like the Canon 40/2.8 or Samsung's you need a bigger registration which means your entire body is bigger and heavier.  I'm happy with small bodies and larger (but nice and light) lenses.  Weight is more important than size in FF land because you already need a bag for the camera so why bother trying to squeeze it into point-and-shoot dimensions?

Whats else missing? A better standard zoom for sure, with F2.8 or higher. And more zooms, like a 16-35 or 16-50mm. My collegues in the press is using their 16-35mm more than any other lens.

First you complain Samyang registration distances are too large, making the lenses too big, then you ask for a f2.8 lens that will be even bigger than anything Samyang have come up with.  Try to be consistent in your demands?  Do you want small lenses?  Do you want cheap lenses?  Do you want fast/high IQ lenses?  You don't get all three.

Cheaper alternatives from third party manufacturers is also a must. When Sony/Zeiss is the only one making lenses in the FE range now, we have no choice but to buy the most expensive lenses possible.

Then switch to Canon.  This is a new system, and cheaper lenses aren't going to be available for early adopters.  This happens with all new systems.  You want cheap, go for Canon.  6D + Tamron/Tokina/etc lenses.

A better tele lens is also missing. For most photojournalists using tele lenses, 200mm is too small. There should be 400mm available. And even higher. My collegues do not even consider buying the A7 because of the lack of tele lenses.

This isn't a sports camera, and people who shoot wildlife/sports (tele subjects) a lot wouldn't change to Sony just because they came out with a 400mm lens anyway.  There's a whole lot more to consider than that and it needs a mature system to support such shooting - m4/3 have not one but two 600mm equivalent zooms, but you don't see 'pros' switching to m4/3 for tele do you.

And in this field, brands like Tamron have made exceptionally good tele lenses for a cheap price. That Sony has later copied. Like their 18-200mm. For people like me, the price of the 200mm G-lens will be too expensive to even consider buying. Both Tamron and Sigma has also shown that they can outperform first party primes with much cheaper alternatives while keeping the same quality.

So go get a system that has a lot of Tamron lenses.

Take for instance Tamrons 24-70mm versus Canons 24-70mm: http://learningcameras.com/reviews/7-lenses/104-tamron-24-70-f28-vc-vs-canon-24-70-f4l-is

Sigma and Tamron both have expertise on making lenses in a different way, that more people can afford, without sacrificing quality. Their expertise is currently not represented in the FE market. And that is a weakness I dont think anyone can disagree with. More options and competition the better right?

Yes, but Tamron can design lenses that are used by the vast majority of lenses with one design when they make DSLR lenses and then adapt them to Canon/Nikon/Sony.  They don't get the same economies of scale with FE mount, which is the newest kid on the block and the only mirrorless FF mount.  You do realise the market for Canon/Nikon/Sony DSLR FF may be hundreds of times bigger than FE mount at the moment?

Im just saying they should have been a part of the movement earlier. Now we´re probably going to have to wait a year or more before they release something. Im sure as hell am not going to buy a Touit lens from Zeiss thats more expensive than the camera and currently doesnt even support full frame.

Yes, you have buyers remorse.  Now go sell your A7 and get a superzoom+DSLR that will make you happy.  For cheap.  You are not an early adopter by nature and yet you went and bought into the newest system in the digital photography world.

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quezra
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Re: Anyone disappointed with the FE movement?
In reply to Mel Snyder, 5 months ago

Mel Snyder wrote:

quezra wrote:

Ramius wrote:

Well like I said, I was kind of hoping the third partys would have been on board since the start. And the fact that they are still not on board is a big limitation. Sony could have just given them the specs and let them create at least one lens each.

Well then your expectations are unrealistic. There is a third party maker on board from the start. They're called Zeiss. You want cheap superzoom for the A7 (if your 18-200 request is anything to go by), but such a lens makes no sense on high quality FF sensors - Sony already got burned making too many superzooms for APS-C E-mount when their market should really have been primes (which they finally got round to in the second and third years of the NEX).

I suggest you have buyer's remorse. Sell your A7 and get a Canon SL1 with Tamron 18-300 and be done with it.

He doesn't own an A7 - that reference was inserted by the forum on his first post - it's not his "gear list." His first post was a week ago.

Ok in that case then he is sitting pretty.  Go get your Canon SL1 + 18-300 Ramius.  You will thank me in the long run.

 quezra's gear list:quezra's gear list
Sony Alpha 7 Sony FE 55mm F1.8 Sony FE 28-70mm F3.5-5.6 OSS Sony Alpha NEX-5N Voigtlander 35mm F1.4 Nokton +7 more
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