Thom Hogan's review of the A7/A7r

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UnderDriven
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Re: Thom Hogan's review of the A7/A7r
In reply to landw, 6 months ago

landw wrote:

He spends half his time explaining what camera manufacturers are doing wrong because his opinion is obviously the only valid one with him being so awesome, well-informed and balanced.

And therefore he shouldn't express his opinion? Or he should express it, but be less confident about it? Or he should just be more humble?

There is nothing wrong with Thom expressing his opinion. It is true that his opinion is more valued than yours or mine, but that's the way it is. If you or I had put in the time and effort to make a website such as his (and back when he did it), then you or I might have as much influence as he does. That doesn't make him right 100% of the time--and, yes, some people will listen to what he says without doing any thinking on their own. But he clearly has a right to say what he thinks...

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UnderDriven
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Re: I don't think he is wrong, exactly
In reply to tex, 6 months ago

tex wrote:

So, I think he says some things that are real. I definitely want an untouched raw file, don't you????---let's hope we get something like that in the coming firmware update. I know it means much larger files: _I don't care. I shoot slow. I knew what I was getting into when I bought a 36mp FF camera.

Yes! Sony made this mistake before (A700), and for some unbelievable reason they made it again...

Where I think there is a problem with the review is the comparison to full size DSLR's .

Well, he tends to speak to the Nikon audience (or at least from the perspective of a Nikon user). That is probably out of habit, and I think people expected it on bythom.com. However, when he created sansmirror.com he may have needed to make more of an effort to shed his Nikon roots...

However, the other reason for the comparison is that the D800 is the only real competitor to the A7R. Clearly, he has to compare them--and he's right when he points out that the D800 has better IQ. For some people the portability of the A7R, and the ability to use legacy lenses, outweigh the better IQ of the D800. I think he made that point (although as someone who has a large collection of Nikon lenses it isn't an important point for him personally). But as a landscape photographer--one of the primary reasons to use a 36MP sensor camera--he does not understand the IQ compromise of Sony's lossy RAW compression. I don't either, unless someone is doing some intense backpacking and needs as light a kit as possible--or someone has a large collection of Leica lenses...

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Jeff Kott
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Re: Can you elaborate
In reply to JimKasson, 6 months ago

JimKasson wrote:

Jeff, as I'm sure you know, this is a multidimensional and complex issue.

Actually, in rethinking this, I think that was what I was reacting to. For someone to say that others should not buy the A7r because of issues with hand holding is clearly an oversimplification. I can say that confidently, because I have been using the camera with great success in a variety of circumstances, both hand held and on a tripod. Of course, I am using the camera to capture images, not to test lenses.

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exdeejjjaaaa
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Re: Can you elaborate
In reply to Jeff Kott, 6 months ago

Jeff Kott wrote:

JimKasson wrote:

Jeff, as I'm sure you know, this is a multidimensional and complex issue.

Actually, in rethinking this, I think that was what I was reacting to. For someone to say that others should not buy the A7r because of issues with hand holding is clearly an oversimplification. I can say that confidently, because I have been using the camera with great success in a variety of circumstances, both hand held and on a tripod. Of course, I am using the camera to capture images, not to test lenses.

“Sharpness is a bourgeois concept” (c) ...

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captura
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Re: Not a single shred of evidence?
In reply to exdeejjjaaaa, 6 months ago

exdeejjjaaaa wrote:

captura wrote:

Arcturu wrote:

Shutter shock was a notorious problem with the Pentax 6x7. Some people used to lean on their tripod-mounted Pentaxes in an attempt to suppress the vibration. That's one reason why other manufacturers (Bronica, Mamiya) used leaf shutters in their 6x7 SLRs. I would like to see someone put leaf shutters in MILC lenses.

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Arcturus

I believe that Sony ran into SS with their first MILC cameras the NEX-3 and NEX-5, a few years ago. They then installed electronic first curtain shutter which effectively stopped the SS phenomenon. Why other MILC makers like Olympus didn't do the same is beyond my grasp.

because it requires proper sensor support - so you have to have a sensor supporting such readout, some sensors do, some - not

Olympus was using mainly Sony-sourced sensors. Right up to the OMD E-M5.

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exdeejjjaaaa
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Re: Not a single shred of evidence?
In reply to captura, 6 months ago

captura wrote:

exdeejjjaaaa wrote:

captura wrote:

Arcturu wrote:

Shutter shock was a notorious problem with the Pentax 6x7. Some people used to lean on their tripod-mounted Pentaxes in an attempt to suppress the vibration. That's one reason why other manufacturers (Bronica, Mamiya) used leaf shutters in their 6x7 SLRs. I would like to see someone put leaf shutters in MILC lenses.

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Arcturus

I believe that Sony ran into SS with their first MILC cameras the NEX-3 and NEX-5, a few years ago. They then installed electronic first curtain shutter which effectively stopped the SS phenomenon. Why other MILC makers like Olympus didn't do the same is beyond my grasp.

because it requires proper sensor support - so you have to have a sensor supporting such readout, some sensors do, some - not

Olympus was using mainly Sony-sourced sensors. Right up to the OMD E-M5.

1) Olympus used more Panasonic sensors (just count all those 12mp cameras for example, including both 43 dSLRs and m43 dSLMs) vs Kodak sensors (before total switch to Panasonic sensors during 43 dSLRs era) or Sony sensors (only one generation between 12mp Panasonic and 16mp Panasonic in E-M1 and probably E-M10)

2) So what ? A7r is also using Sony Semi sensor, yet that sensor has no EFCS support... Sony Semi origin does not automatically means that a particular sensor has EFCS support implemented (or enabled)

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John M Roberts
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Re: Not a single shred of evidence?
In reply to captura, 6 months ago

captura wrote:

John M Roberts wrote:

captura wrote:

blue_skies wrote:

LouMeluso wrote:

I'm not sure how one can construe Mr. Hogan's review as "dumping". He basically is repeating what has been discovered about the cameras by a number of testers and added his own user opinions and images. Seems like a fair way to approach it. I would consider his user opinions quite experienced and informed.

To begin replying to this thread with immediate name calling (fanboy-as despicable a word if there ever was one) is not only disrespectful of Mr. Hogan but not conducive to any useful discussion on this thread.

Did you perhaps mean this as a response to Captura's message?

You posted your response wrong then.

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Cheers,
Henry

Lou might not be familiar with the enthusiasm that was displayed by Mr. Hogan in a report a few months ago, belittling the Sony cameras in favor M43, in particular the E-M1. He was another one of those who had declared that the A7/r suffered from Shutter Shock, when not a single shred of evidence of that has ever been presented.

I have read enough from credible photographers to believe it does exist.

I did not say that shutter shock does not exist. I experienced it myself after doing a lot of fiddling on my E-PM1 and a bit with my E-PL1 Olympii. Best thing, which Olympus actually recommends, is to choose the 1/8 second delay from the menu. And it goes away.

Now what did Sony do to mitigate Shutter Shock in the Sony A7r? It should have SS because there is no EFCS in this model, as opposed to the A7 and all other Sony MILC cameras since the NEX-C3.

My wild guess is that true to Sony-style, they just stuck in a 1/8 second delay as part of the process, without telling anyone.

I have not heard that they have addressed. Where have you learned that they have? Has anyone experienced new delay in their shooting of the A7r?

That would work most of the time. There was one poster to-day who said he had SS on his A7r; the first report that I've seen.

I'm not sure what it would take for you to deem as credible evidence presented on the web. J Holmes has had years of experience shooting in many formats, usually LF in film and has produced great images.

http://www.josephholmes.com/news.html

Why would this guy spend time fabricating up what he demonstrates to be an issue for him. He provide evidence. His method of trying to eradicate it goes beyond what I would do in order to solve the problem. Adding stabilization weights just to make the system work seems to defeat the purpose of shooting that system who's benefits are being small and lightweight.

To get the potential of the higher pixel sensors requires methods similar to MF and LF shooting. Otherwise it would make more sense to stick with 12mp or such. Why use such a MP system if you can't either use high shutter speeds or a tripod to avoid any shake. To have a shutter such as is in the "r" allegedly create enough vibration to affect the image at popular shutter speeds coupled with certain tele lenses and on a tripod no less creates the similar condition as shooting too slow of a shutter speed while handheld. For some that is problematic and in my style of shooting unacceptable.

For too long, years past, I thought my Pentax 300mm was a bad lens and rarely used it. I was shooting mirror up and all. Still no dice. Then one day I noticed that on some of my images only a side of the slide was blurred while the center then the opposite side were sharp. A ha! It was from shutter shake. The curtain was so large in that 6x7 camera that even with the mirror up the shutter still created shake. I purchased a specialized brace from Kirk which helped solve the problem.

This sounds like a de-centred lens, not shutter shake.

It was vibration. i could take a shot at 1/250th or more and the whole frame was great. By the time the curtain reached the center then the other side the vibration had ceased. I could also negate this by shooting at shutter speeds 1 sec. or longer which would hide the impact.

This shutter shake concern is reasonable yet may not at all be recognized by many and that's fine. To say there is no evidence to it, well I guess that's up to you to decide what you deem credible on the net or anywhere. It all boils down to a personal level of judgement and reason.

'No evidence' is that no charts, tests, details were ever presented. Several known "journalists" were producing he said she said evidence based on nothing. I reasonably guessed it might have been a Panasonic put-up job.

It looked like a blatant attempt to cast serious aspersion upon the A7/r cameras. And the usual M43 fanboys jumped right into this forum and the battle raged for several days.

Things are much quieter now and I hope they stay that way.

Steve

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John M Roberts
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Re: Can you elaborate
In reply to rrccad, 6 months ago

rrccad wrote:

tomtom50 wrote:

Jeff Kott wrote:

The point that several posters have made is that to just compare the A7r to the D800, without taking into account kit size and weight, when the justification for using m4/3 vs. D800 is size and weight, is not logically consistent.

He grants the a7r being slower as understandable considering it is mirrorless, so he acknowledges the trade-offs.

He doesn't see being smaller as any excuse for reduced image quality due to lossy RAW compression, and it isn't. Sony can change their RAW processing without making the camera bigger.

Since Sony processes RAW in a way that has visible artifacts they lose the claim of having D800 image quality. The sensor may be the same but the RAW files are not.

m43 has lower IQ, but it is not crippled by an unnecessary compromise.

there is that.

it's also shady business. Sony makes great claims and boldly advertises these bodies as 14 bit raw recording. (their words).

in no documentation that I can find, it is not mentioned nor described officially as "visuallly lossless" (nikon term), "lossy" or "crap on a stick".

I remember the waving of torches and pitchforks because the canon manual for the 5D Mark II could be been misconstrued at the beginning as offering full manual control during video.

This would have been a feeding frenzy .. I'm not sure why people are defending or even getting on Thom's case - the more public it is, the better chances it gets fixed.

calling thom a fanboy of m43? anti-Sony? really people? this is getting tiring everytime you see / hear something you don't agree with.

I want this fixed. So go Thom. Sooner the better please. I refuse to purchase a A7/A7R with this.

I still don't get why they do this. What advantage is it for Sony to pare down the information? Is it a selling point to have less information or does it in some way allow the camera to write more quickly?

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captura
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Re: Not a single shred of evidence?
In reply to exdeejjjaaaa, 6 months ago

exdeejjjaaaa wrote:

captura wrote:

exdeejjjaaaa wrote:

captura wrote:

Arcturu wrote:

Shutter shock was a notorious problem with the Pentax 6x7. Some people used to lean on their tripod-mounted Pentaxes in an attempt to suppress the vibration. That's one reason why other manufacturers (Bronica, Mamiya) used leaf shutters in their 6x7 SLRs. I would like to see someone put leaf shutters in MILC lenses.

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Arcturus

I believe that Sony ran into SS with their first MILC cameras the NEX-3 and NEX-5, a few years ago. They then installed electronic first curtain shutter which effectively stopped the SS phenomenon. Why other MILC makers like Olympus didn't do the same is beyond my grasp.

because it requires proper sensor support - so you have to have a sensor supporting such readout, some sensors do, some - not

Olympus was using mainly Sony-sourced sensors. Right up to the OMD E-M5.

1) Olympus used more Panasonic sensors (just count all those 12mp cameras for example, including both 43 dSLRs and m43 dSLMs) vs Kodak sensors (before total switch to Panasonic sensors during 43 dSLRs era) or Sony sensors (only one generation between 12mp Panasonic and 16mp Panasonic in E-M1 and probably E-M10)

I was referring to just the MILC cameras. And the Panasonic sensors failed to keep pace with Sony's, leading to a string of poor sales for Panasonic.

2) So what ? A7r is also using Sony Semi sensor, yet that sensor has no EFCS support... Sony Semi origin does not automatically means that a particular sensor has EFCS support implemented (or enabled)

The A7r is the exception camera; where Sony removed absolutely every unnecessary feature for it's goal of providing the highest possible image quality. EFCS was a standard design inclusion for years, now and will continue to be.

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captura
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Re: Not a single shred of evidence?
In reply to John M Roberts, 6 months ago

John M Roberts wrote:

captura wrote:

John M Roberts wrote:

captura wrote:

blue_skies wrote:

LouMeluso wrote:

I'm not sure how one can construe Mr. Hogan's review as "dumping". He basically is repeating what has been discovered about the cameras by a number of testers and added his own user opinions and images. Seems like a fair way to approach it. I would consider his user opinions quite experienced and informed.

To begin replying to this thread with immediate name calling (fanboy-as despicable a word if there ever was one) is not only disrespectful of Mr. Hogan but not conducive to any useful discussion on this thread.

Did you perhaps mean this as a response to Captura's message?

You posted your response wrong then.

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Cheers,
Henry

Lou might not be familiar with the enthusiasm that was displayed by Mr. Hogan in a report a few months ago, belittling the Sony cameras in favor M43, in particular the E-M1. He was another one of those who had declared that the A7/r suffered from Shutter Shock, when not a single shred of evidence of that has ever been presented.

I have read enough from credible photographers to believe it does exist.

I did not say that shutter shock does not exist. I experienced it myself after doing a lot of fiddling on my E-PM1 and a bit with my E-PL1 Olympii. Best thing, which Olympus actually recommends, is to choose the 1/8 second delay from the menu. And it goes away.

Now what did Sony do to mitigate Shutter Shock in the Sony A7r? It should have SS because there is no EFCS in this model, as opposed to the A7 and all other Sony MILC cameras since the NEX-C3.

My wild guess is that true to Sony-style, they just stuck in a 1/8 second delay as part of the process, without telling anyone.

I have not heard that they have addressed. Where have you learned that they have? Has anyone experienced new delay in their shooting of the A7r?

I can't venture into something that doesn't exist, at least on paper. There are no documented cases of SS. I am only guessing about something that one would have expected, there being no EFCS. And about Sony Design might have 'fixed' it.

That would work most of the time. There was one poster to-day who said he had SS on his A7r; the first report that I've seen.

I'm not sure what it would take for you to deem as credible evidence presented on the web. J Holmes has had years of experience shooting in many formats, usually LF in film and has produced great images.

http://www.josephholmes.com/news.html

Why would this guy spend time fabricating up what he demonstrates to be an issue for him. He provide evidence. His method of trying to eradicate it goes beyond what I would do in order to solve the problem. Adding stabilization weights just to make the system work seems to defeat the purpose of shooting that system who's benefits are being small and lightweight.

To get the potential of the higher pixel sensors requires methods similar to MF and LF shooting. Otherwise it would make more sense to stick with 12mp or such. Why use such a MP system if you can't either use high shutter speeds or a tripod to avoid any shake. To have a shutter such as is in the "r" allegedly create enough vibration to affect the image at popular shutter speeds coupled with certain tele lenses and on a tripod no less creates the similar condition as shooting too slow of a shutter speed while handheld. For some that is problematic and in my style of shooting unacceptable.

For too long, years past, I thought my Pentax 300mm was a bad lens and rarely used it. I was shooting mirror up and all. Still no dice. Then one day I noticed that on some of my images only a side of the slide was blurred while the center then the opposite side were sharp. A ha! It was from shutter shake. The curtain was so large in that 6x7 camera that even with the mirror up the shutter still created shake. I purchased a specialized brace from Kirk which helped solve the problem.

This sounds like a de-centred lens, not shutter shake.

It was vibration. i could take a shot at 1/250th or more and the whole frame was great. By the time the curtain reached the center then the other side the vibration had ceased. I could also negate this by shooting at shutter speeds 1 sec. or longer which would hide the impact.

SS usually does not occur at anything even near to 1/250 sec. At least on the most documented cases, which are Olympus. More like 1/80 or 1/100.

This shutter shake concern is reasonable yet may not at all be recognized by many and that's fine. To say there is no evidence to it, well I guess that's up to you to decide what you deem credible on the net or anywhere. It all boils down to a personal level of judgement and reason.

'No evidence' is that no charts, tests, details were ever presented. Several known "journalists" were producing he said she said evidence based on nothing. I reasonably guessed it might have been a Panasonic put-up job.

It looked like a blatant attempt to cast serious aspersion upon the A7/r cameras. And the usual M43 fanboys jumped right into this forum and the battle raged for several days.

Things are much quieter now and I hope they stay that way.

Steve

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