Thom Hogan's review of the A7/A7r

Started 4 months ago | Discussions
Iliah Borg
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Re: Can you elaborate
In reply to Monty Parker, 4 months ago

Only when de emphasizing size in the comparison of A7r and d800.

If you want to get full resolution the size is determined not by the camera.

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captura
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Re: Thom Hogan's review of the A7/A7r
In reply to Dennis, 4 months ago

Dennis wrote:

captura wrote:

Yes, he seems a shadow of his former self; am a right about that? Strong anti-Sony bias.

As clearly evidenced by his decision to sell the RX1 that he had been using in favor of the A7 which he will use now ? (Please note that he recommends the A7 in this review).

If Thom is showing an anti-anything bias lately, it's Nikon, at least in terms of corporate strategy. Or read what he's said about the Df. Certainly nothing any more positive than the A7/r.

Perhaps you require glowing reviews ala Steve Huff: "THIS is the GREATEST CAMERA since the LAST camera I said was the greatest camera !

While other bloggers are focused on this piece of gear or that, or the joys of EVFs, Thom has had some great industry insights lately.

I might have given the wrong impression that I meant that Thom had personally visited this forum. He didn't, but legions of M43 fan-boys did. I dn't mind Steve Huff (he is so upbeat/salesyish that he's funny) but none of the celebrity reviewers should denigrate product lines. That's OUR job, on the Forums. IMHO.

"industry insights?" - Sounds like turbulence, to me!

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Jeff Kott
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Re: Can you elaborate
In reply to Iliah Borg, 4 months ago

Iliah Borg wrote:

Only when de emphasizing size in the comparison of A7r and d800.

If you want to get full resolution the size is determined not by the camera.

For some people in some circumstances, size and weight of the camera kit is a factor that determines which kit to bring along.

In fact, based on Thom's writing, this is why he often takes his m4/3 equipment as opposed to his Nikon equipment. It's clearly not because he thinks he will get better IQ from his m4/3.

The point that several posters have made is that to just compare the A7r to the D800, without taking into account kit size and weight, when the justification for using m4/3 vs. D800 is size and weight, is not logically consistent.

The interesting thing to me is how many of the people who are in search of "ultimate image quality" and use m4/3 also own a D800 or Medium Format equipment.

It seems to me that in the best combination of almost ultimate IQ and relatively small size and weight. Thom either doesn't see it that way or did not make that point. This is what some of the posters are reacting to.

BTW Iliah, any idea why Thom thinks for normal exposures ISO 200 is preferable to ISO 100?

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captura
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Re: The posterization issue
In reply to Dennis, 4 months ago

Dennis wrote:

While fanboys want to argue that it's not a big deal (and therefore shouldn't be mentioned in a review, unless the reviewer is "anti-Sony"), if it's an issue, it's appropriate for reviewers to bring it up. One thing is sure: it will never be fixed if nobody brings it up. Sony provided a firmware update to the NEX-5 in response to extensive criticism (in reviews) to the awful UI.

Well to be fair they also introduced focus peaking for the first time, and some other positives.
 But Sony seems to have been somewhat stingy with their updates since then.

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captura
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Re: Thom Hogan's review of the A7/A7r
In reply to tomtom50, 4 months ago

tomtom50 wrote:

captura wrote:

You have a point there, Lou. There seems to be a pre-existing consensus here amongst the regular members of this forum about Mr. Thom's apparent M43 boosterism and scorn of comparable Sony products.

Not a consensus!

He prefers m43 over Nex. That does not make him anti-Sony.

He also writes of the RX100 as one of very few cameras over the years that changed the way he shoots - for the first time hs has a carry anywhere camera that can produce publishable results. That is hardly anti-Sony.

His biggest criticism of Nex vs. m43 is the lens line. He is right. Any objective observer knows that at present the m43 lens line is stronger than Nex. I accept this but I bought Nex - it has the lenses I need. But I'm not a pro.

I can't completely disagree. I often carry one of my Olympus cameras, or the great G1. I don't worry so much with them; that I might break or drop or lose one of them, perhaps. And I love the smaller lenses but imo they are over-rated compared to NEX lenses.

The new V3/J4 Nikon 1 will eliminate the RX100 but apparently Nikon is in Mr. Thom's sights right now. Yes or no?

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Mark K
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Re: Thom Hogan's review of the A7/A7r
In reply to Horshack, 4 months ago

Horshack wrote:

http://www.sansmirror.com/cameras/a-note-about-camera-reviews/sony-nex-camera-reviews/sony-a7-and-a7r-review.html

Thank you for the posting. Though I believe what he said about A7/A7r, but what too obvious is how hard he is trying to trash both cameras in comparison to D800/D800e.

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Iliah Borg
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Re: Can you elaborate
In reply to Jeff Kott, 4 months ago

Jeff Kott wrote:

Iliah Borg wrote:

Only when de emphasizing size in the comparison of A7r and d800.

If you want to get full resolution the size is determined not by the camera.

For some people in some circumstances, size and weight of the camera kit is a factor that determines which kit to bring along.

If I want small size and weight and going to handhold A7r is out of question. The way I see A7r -- it is more of a slightly crippled digital back than a camera.

On the contrary, A7 is IMHO a rather good choice if EVF is no obstacle and one has money for adequate set of lenses; or can use just 1 or 2 primes and focus manually.

I do not see Thom as a fanboy. What would be the reason for him to be one?

any idea why Thom thinks for normal exposures ISO 200 is preferable to ISO 100?

In my experience at ISO 100 shadows are plugged beyond extracting details.

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Iliah Borg
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Exactly :))
In reply to Mark K, 4 months ago

Mark K wrote:

Horshack wrote:

http://www.sansmirror.com/cameras/a-note-about-camera-reviews/sony-nex-camera-reviews/sony-a7-and-a7r-review.html

Thank you for the posting. Though I believe what he said about A7/A7r, but what too obvious is how hard he is trying to trash both cameras in comparison to D800/D800e.

Thom is trying so hard that he recommends A7.

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Dennis
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Re: Thom Hogan's review of the A7/A7r
In reply to osv, 4 months ago

osv wrote:

Dennis wrote:

Thom has had some great industry insights lately.

i actually agree with that to some extent, however... the title of this thread is "Thom Hogan's review of the A7/A7r"

bringing up off-topic subject matter, in order to defend the author, smacks of .... well, do i really need to fill in the blanks

Well, that was in reply to: "Yes, he seems a shadow of his former self; am a right about that? Strong anti-Sony bias." So we're already off topic !

Anyway, you can call me a Thom Hogan "fan" I enjoy his writing and find his insights enlightening. I don't agree with everything he says, but find no fault in most. (I'm also a fan of Mike Johnston at TOP, but his subject matter is completely different). Thom's product reviews are like anyone elses; part subjective and part objective, and I don't get bothered if a reviewers take on a camera disagrees with mine. I didn't like the Panasonic GM1 at all - I'd find it a horrible little camera to use, yet Thom seemed to like it.

So I can certainly understand that there will be people who will disagree with Thom's conclusions or the importance he places on certain aspects of the cameras. And then there are the kneejerk reactions against the reviewer any time a review of someone's favorite product points out something that might not be perfect about it. Not restricted to Sony, of course.

Part of the problem, I think, is that any given blogger has a following of like-minded people. Thom has mostly nature photographers, predominantly shooting DSLRs. Steve Huff has the Leica/ILC crowd. These guys write to their audience - makes sense - review a camera for your needs and the needs of your audience. Then as soon as a review gets posted, it gets linked in fan forums and everyone criticized the review because they don't see it the same way.

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Dennis
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Re: Exactly :))
In reply to Iliah Borg, 4 months ago

Iliah Borg wrote:

Mark K wrote:

Horshack wrote:

http://www.sansmirror.com/cameras/a-note-about-camera-reviews/sony-nex-camera-reviews/sony-a7-and-a7r-review.html

Thank you for the posting. Though I believe what he said about A7/A7r, but what too obvious is how hard he is trying to trash both cameras in comparison to D800/D800e.

Thom is trying so hard that he recommends A7.

You published the findings from rawdigger about Sony's raw files, so apparently you're out to bash Sony, too

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John M Roberts
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Re: Not a single shred of evidence?
In reply to captura, 4 months ago

captura wrote:

blue_skies wrote:

LouMeluso wrote:

I'm not sure how one can construe Mr. Hogan's review as "dumping". He basically is repeating what has been discovered about the cameras by a number of testers and added his own user opinions and images. Seems like a fair way to approach it. I would consider his user opinions quite experienced and informed.

To begin replying to this thread with immediate name calling (fanboy-as despicable a word if there ever was one) is not only disrespectful of Mr. Hogan but not conducive to any useful discussion on this thread.

Did you perhaps mean this as a response to Captura's message?

You posted your response wrong then.

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Henry

Lou might not be familiar with the enthusiasm that was displayed by Mr. Hogan in a report a few months ago, belittling the Sony cameras in favor M43, in particular the E-M1. He was another one of those who had declared that the A7/r suffered from Shutter Shock, when not a single shred of evidence of that has ever been presented.

I have read enough from credible photographers to believe it does exist. I'm not sure what it would take for you to deem as credible evidence presented on the web. J Holmes has had years of experience shooting in many formats, usually LF in film and has produced great images.

http://www.josephholmes.com/news.html

Why would this guy spend time fabricating up what he demonstrates to be an issue for him. He provide evidence. His method of trying to eradicate it goes beyond what I would do in order to solve the problem. Adding stabilization weights just to make the system work seems to defeat the purpose of shooting that system who's benefits are being small and lightweight.

To get the potential of the higher pixel sensors requires methods similar to MF and LF shooting. Otherwise it would make more sense to stick with 12mp or such. Why use such a MP system if you can't either use high shutter speeds or a tripod to avoid any shake. To have a shutter such as is in the "r" allegedly create enough vibration to affect the image at popular shutter speeds coupled with certain tele lenses and on a tripod no less creates the similar condition as shooting too slow of a shutter speed while handheld. For some that is problematic and in my style of shooting unacceptable.

For too long, years past, I thought my Pentax 300mm was a bad lens and rarely used it. I was shooting mirror up and all. Still no dice. Then one day I noticed that on some of my images only a side of the slide was blurred while the center then the opposite side were sharp. A ha! It was from shutter shake. The curtain was so large in that 6x7 camera that even with the mirror up the shutter still created shake. I purchased a specialized brace from Kirk which helped solve the problem.

This shutter shake concern is reasonable yet may not at all be recognized by many and that's fine. To say there is no evidence to it, well I guess that's up to you to decide what you deem credible on the net or anywhere. It all boils down to a personal level of judgement and reason.

It looked like a blatant attempt to cast serious aspersion upon the A7/r cameras. And the usual M43 fanboys jumped right into this forum and the battle raged for several days.

Things are much quieter now and I hope they stay that way.

Steve

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Iliah Borg
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Re: Exactly :))
In reply to Dennis, 4 months ago

Dennis wrote:

Iliah Borg wrote:

Mark K wrote:

Horshack wrote:

http://www.sansmirror.com/cameras/a-note-about-camera-reviews/sony-nex-camera-reviews/sony-a7-and-a7r-review.html

Thank you for the posting. Though I believe what he said about A7/A7r, but what too obvious is how hard he is trying to trash both cameras in comparison to D800/D800e.

Thom is trying so hard that he recommends A7.

You published the findings from rawdigger about Sony's raw files, so apparently you're out to bash Sony, too

I'm for offering lossless raw formats

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tomtom50
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Re: Can you elaborate
In reply to Jeff Kott, 4 months ago

Jeff Kott wrote:

The point that several posters have made is that to just compare the A7r to the D800, without taking into account kit size and weight, when the justification for using m4/3 vs. D800 is size and weight, is not logically consistent.

He grants the a7r being slower as understandable considering it is mirrorless, so he acknowledges the trade-offs.

He doesn't see being smaller as any excuse for reduced image quality due to lossy RAW compression, and it isn't. Sony can change their RAW processing without making the camera bigger.

Since Sony processes RAW in a way that has visible artifacts they lose the claim of having D800 image quality. The sensor may be the same but the RAW files are not.

m43 has lower IQ, but it is not crippled by an unnecessary compromise.

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Monty Parker
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Re: Can you elaborate
In reply to Iliah Borg, 4 months ago

Iliah Borg wrote:

Only when de emphasizing size in the comparison of A7r and d800.

If you want to get full resolution the size is determined not by the camera.

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Sorry Iliah, I was referring the the cameras size and weight.

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rrccad
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Re: Can you elaborate
In reply to tomtom50, 4 months ago

tomtom50 wrote:

Jeff Kott wrote:

The point that several posters have made is that to just compare the A7r to the D800, without taking into account kit size and weight, when the justification for using m4/3 vs. D800 is size and weight, is not logically consistent.

He grants the a7r being slower as understandable considering it is mirrorless, so he acknowledges the trade-offs.

He doesn't see being smaller as any excuse for reduced image quality due to lossy RAW compression, and it isn't. Sony can change their RAW processing without making the camera bigger.

Since Sony processes RAW in a way that has visible artifacts they lose the claim of having D800 image quality. The sensor may be the same but the RAW files are not.

m43 has lower IQ, but it is not crippled by an unnecessary compromise.

there is that.

it's also shady business. Sony makes great claims and boldly advertises these bodies as 14 bit raw recording. (their words).

in no documentation that I can find, it is not mentioned nor described officially as "visuallly lossless" (nikon term), "lossy" or "crap on a stick".

I remember the waving of torches and pitchforks because the canon manual for the 5D Mark II could be been misconstrued at the beginning as offering full manual control during video.

This would have been a feeding frenzy .. I'm not sure why people are defending or even getting on Thom's case - the more public it is, the better chances it gets fixed.

calling thom a fanboy of m43? anti-Sony? really people? this is getting tiring everytime you see / hear something you don't agree with.

I want this fixed. So go Thom. Sooner the better please. I refuse to purchase a A7/A7R with this.

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captura
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Re: Not a single shred of evidence?
In reply to John M Roberts, 4 months ago

John M Roberts wrote:

captura wrote:

blue_skies wrote:

LouMeluso wrote:

I'm not sure how one can construe Mr. Hogan's review as "dumping". He basically is repeating what has been discovered about the cameras by a number of testers and added his own user opinions and images. Seems like a fair way to approach it. I would consider his user opinions quite experienced and informed.

To begin replying to this thread with immediate name calling (fanboy-as despicable a word if there ever was one) is not only disrespectful of Mr. Hogan but not conducive to any useful discussion on this thread.

Did you perhaps mean this as a response to Captura's message?

You posted your response wrong then.

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Cheers,
Henry

Lou might not be familiar with the enthusiasm that was displayed by Mr. Hogan in a report a few months ago, belittling the Sony cameras in favor M43, in particular the E-M1. He was another one of those who had declared that the A7/r suffered from Shutter Shock, when not a single shred of evidence of that has ever been presented.

I have read enough from credible photographers to believe it does exist.

I did not say that shutter shock does not exist. I experienced it myself after doing a lot of fiddling on my E-PM1 and a bit with my E-PL1 Olympii. Best thing, which Olympus actually recommends, is to choose the 1/8 second delay from the menu. And it goes away.

Now what did Sony do to mitigate Shutter Shock in the Sony A7r? It should have SS because there is no EFCS in this model, as opposed to the A7 and all other Sony MILC cameras since the NEX-C3.

My wild guess is that true to Sony-style, they just stuck in a 1/8 second delay as part of the process, without telling anyone. That would work most of the time. There was one poster to-day who said he had SS on his A7r; the first report that I've seen.

I'm not sure what it would take for you to deem as credible evidence presented on the web. J Holmes has had years of experience shooting in many formats, usually LF in film and has produced great images.

http://www.josephholmes.com/news.html

Why would this guy spend time fabricating up what he demonstrates to be an issue for him. He provide evidence. His method of trying to eradicate it goes beyond what I would do in order to solve the problem. Adding stabilization weights just to make the system work seems to defeat the purpose of shooting that system who's benefits are being small and lightweight.

To get the potential of the higher pixel sensors requires methods similar to MF and LF shooting. Otherwise it would make more sense to stick with 12mp or such. Why use such a MP system if you can't either use high shutter speeds or a tripod to avoid any shake. To have a shutter such as is in the "r" allegedly create enough vibration to affect the image at popular shutter speeds coupled with certain tele lenses and on a tripod no less creates the similar condition as shooting too slow of a shutter speed while handheld. For some that is problematic and in my style of shooting unacceptable.

For too long, years past, I thought my Pentax 300mm was a bad lens and rarely used it. I was shooting mirror up and all. Still no dice. Then one day I noticed that on some of my images only a side of the slide was blurred while the center then the opposite side were sharp. A ha! It was from shutter shake. The curtain was so large in that 6x7 camera that even with the mirror up the shutter still created shake. I purchased a specialized brace from Kirk which helped solve the problem.

This sounds like a de-centred lens, not shutter shake.

This shutter shake concern is reasonable yet may not at all be recognized by many and that's fine. To say there is no evidence to it, well I guess that's up to you to decide what you deem credible on the net or anywhere. It all boils down to a personal level of judgement and reason.

'No evidence' is that no charts, tests, details were ever presented. Several known "journalists" were producing he said she said evidence based on nothing. I reasonably guessed it might have been a Panasonic put-up job.

It looked like a blatant attempt to cast serious aspersion upon the A7/r cameras. And the usual M43 fanboys jumped right into this forum and the battle raged for several days.

Things are much quieter now and I hope they stay that way.

Steve

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Iliah Borg
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Re: Can you elaborate
In reply to Monty Parker, 4 months ago

Monty Parker wrote:

Iliah Borg wrote:

Only when de emphasizing size in the comparison of A7r and d800.

If you want to get full resolution the size is determined not by the camera.

Sorry Iliah, I was referring the cameras size and weight.

I do not think given I have a choice I will ever use A7r for hand-held shooting.

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captura
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Re: Not a single shred of evidence?
In reply to John M Roberts, 4 months ago

John M Roberts wrote:

captura wrote:

blue_skies wrote:

LouMeluso wrote:

I'm not sure how one can construe Mr. Hogan's review as "dumping". He basically is repeating what has been discovered about the cameras by a number of testers and added his own user opinions and images. Seems like a fair way to approach it. I would consider his user opinions quite experienced and informed.

To begin replying to this thread with immediate name calling (fanboy-as despicable a word if there ever was one) is not only disrespectful of Mr. Hogan but not conducive to any useful discussion on this thread.

Did you perhaps mean this as a response to Captura's message?

You posted your response wrong then.

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Cheers,
Henry

Lou might not be familiar with the enthusiasm that was displayed by Mr. Hogan in a report a few months ago, belittling the Sony cameras in favor M43, in particular the E-M1. He was another one of those who had declared that the A7/r suffered from Shutter Shock, when not a single shred of evidence of that has ever been presented.

I have read enough from credible photographers to believe it does exist. I'm not sure what it would take for you to deem as credible evidence presented on the web. J Holmes has had years of experience shooting in many formats, usually LF in film and has produced great images.

http://www.josephholmes.com/news.html

Why would this guy spend time fabricating up what he demonstrates to be an issue for him. He provide evidence. His method of trying to eradicate it goes beyond what I would do in order to solve the problem. Adding stabilization weights just to make the system work seems to defeat the purpose of shooting that system who's benefits are being small and lightweight.

To get the potential of the higher pixel sensors requires methods similar to MF and LF shooting. Otherwise it would make more sense to stick with 12mp or such. Why use such a MP system if you can't either use high shutter speeds or a tripod to avoid any shake. To have a shutter such as is in the "r" allegedly create enough vibration to affect the image at popular shutter speeds coupled with certain tele lenses and on a tripod no less creates the similar condition as shooting too slow of a shutter speed while handheld. For some that is problematic and in my style of shooting unacceptable.

For too long, years past, I thought my Pentax 300mm was a bad lens and rarely used it. I was shooting mirror up and all. Still no dice. Then one day I noticed that on some of my images only a side of the slide was blurred while the center then the opposite side were sharp. A ha! It was from shutter shake. The curtain was so large in that 6x7 camera that even with the mirror up the shutter still created shake. I purchased a specialized brace from Kirk which helped solve the problem.

This shutter shake concern is reasonable yet may not at all be recognized by many and that's fine. To say there is no evidence to it, well I guess that's up to you to decide what you deem credible on the net or anywhere. It all boils down to a personal level of judgement and reason.

It looked like a blatant attempt to cast serious aspersion upon the A7/r cameras. And the usual M43 fanboys jumped right into this forum and the battle raged for several days.

Things are much quieter now and I hope they stay that way.

Steve

May I re-phrase my previous answer to give you better understanding of my meaning?

"He was another one of those who had declared that the A7/r suffered from Shutter Shock, when not a single shred of evidence of that  Shutter Shock within the A7r  has ever been presented."

As I already wrote to you, or someone else, I did not say that SS does not exist in the Wide World of Cameras.

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captura
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Re: Thom Hogan's review of the A7/A7r
In reply to LTZ470, 4 months ago

LTZ470 wrote:

captura wrote:

LouMeluso wrote:

Lou might not be familiar with the enthusiasm that was displayed by Mr. Hogan in a report a few months ago, belittling the Sony cameras in favor M43, in particular the E-M1. He was another one of those who had declared that the A7/r suffered from Shutter Shock, when not a single shred of evidence of that has ever been presented. It looked like a blatant attempt to cast serious aspersion upon the A7/r cameras. And the usual M43 fanboys jumped right into this forum and the battle raged for several days.

Things are much quieter now and I hope they stay that way.

Steve

Hi Steve:

You are right I did not read previous opinions from Mr. Hogan. Nor would it change my opinion if I had. I don't understand the defensive stance members have if they discover someone has an opinion that differs from their own. Mr. Hogan has an opinion expressed in this review. I happen to agree with his assessment but I didn't need his agreement to purchase the A7 camera which, BTW, he recommends. Don't we all have bias? Some things we like and some we don't. Mr. Hogan is not allowed to have personal likes and dislikes? He should be the target of name calling or worse because of it? I say no! In the remote chance he had some "secret, hidden agenda" to "cast dispersion" on Sony products....so what? In any case, I got no sense of any of that from this review.

I don't understand the lack of fraternity and comradeship, from some here, that would allow members to freely feel personally affronted and devolve to name calling of reviewer's or even forum members, such as the correspondent directly above, with impunity. I'm shocked and dismayed by the lack of decorum and collegiality in this forum.

You have a point there, Lou. There seems to be a pre-existing consensus here amongst the regular members of this forum about Mr. Thom's apparent M43 boosterism and scorn of comparable Sony products.

Ole Thom's got ice packs on both eye's this morning after writing that review...lol...a black from the A7 and a black eye from the A7r...

They're great cameras folks, and we all know Sony has been hitting home runs with a lot of cameras...so I am sure these will mature nicely...and yes could you imagine if Sony actually put Oly's CDAF System in these cams? Oly made the BEST move using Focus Peaking in their cameras from Sony...believe me it really helped Oly to excel...now if Sony will take Oly's FAST CDAF System and implement it in their cameras they would sweep a large portion of the market...it would look like the outside of and Apple Store when they release a new product...

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Yup, and if they could only de-hump the A7/r everything would be peachy!

But of these FF Sonies, I prefer the RX1's. They were made Perfect by their Maker before being introduced.

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Re: Can you elaborate
In reply to Iliah Borg, 4 months ago

Iliah Borg wrote:

any idea why Thom thinks for normal exposures ISO 200 is preferable to ISO 100?

In my experience at ISO 100 shadows are plugged beyond extracting details.

how is that possible w/ a Sony Semi sensor (with low readout noise) with the same exposure for both gains (ISO 100 and ISO200) - is the advantage of ISO 200 really that bigger ?

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