HD DA TC x1,4: no Sigma HSM; not making FF compatible

Started 7 months ago | Discussions
beholder3
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HD DA TC x1,4: no Sigma HSM; not making FF compatible
7 months ago

Just to confirm two items:

  • The new TC does not work with 3rd party Sigma HSM driven lenses
    tested on 70-200/2.8 OS and only focussed to infinity nothing else; 85/1.4 not working at all. Even FNumbers are not converted for these lenses (while oldies like FA 24-90 do show converted FNumbers)
  • While in theory a TC would convert the FoV to make APSC lenses FF-compatible in practise they dont, due to the fact that the lens system in the TC has such a small diameter and you get hard black vignetting all around. Tested with some lenses on 5D3.

Other than that the TC is  a little jewel with DA* 300, DA* 60-250 and DFA 100. And that is what it is intended for.

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leopold
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Re: HD DA TC x1,4: no Sigma HSM; not making FF compatible
In reply to beholder3, 7 months ago
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james45
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Re: HD DA TC x1,4: no Sigma HSM; not making FF compatible
In reply to beholder3, 7 months ago

beholder3 wrote:

Just to confirm two items:

  • The new TC does not work with 3rd party Sigma HSM driven lenses
    tested on 70-200/2.8 OS and only focussed to infinity nothing else; 85/1.4 not working at all. Even FNumbers are not converted for these lenses (while oldies like FA 24-90 do show converted FNumbers)
  • While in theory a TC would convert the FoV to make APSC lenses FF-compatible in practise they dont, due to the fact that the lens system in the TC has such a small diameter and you get hard black vignetting all around. Tested with some lenses on 5D3.

Other than that the TC is a little jewel with DA* 300, DA* 60-250 and DFA 100. And that is what it is intended for.

How is it with non HSM Sigma lenses? Keen to know if it behaves with the 100-300 f4...

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beholder3
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Re: HD DA TC x1,4: no Sigma HSM; not making FF compatible
In reply to james45, 7 months ago

james45 wrote:

beholder3 wrote:

Just to confirm two items:

  • The new TC does not work with 3rd party Sigma HSM driven lenses
    tested on 70-200/2.8 OS and only focussed to infinity nothing else; 85/1.4 not working at all. Even FNumbers are not converted for these lenses (while oldies like FA 24-90 do show converted FNumbers)
  • While in theory a TC would convert the FoV to make APSC lenses FF-compatible in practise they dont, due to the fact that the lens system in the TC has such a small diameter and you get hard black vignetting all around. Tested with some lenses on 5D3.

Other than that the TC is a little jewel with DA* 300, DA* 60-250 and DFA 100. And that is what it is intended for.

How is it with non HSM Sigma lenses? Keen to know if it behaves with the 100-300 f4...

Sigma 180 Macro and 105 Macro seem to be doing fine. Looks like screw-driven lenses are fine and only HSMs dont work. On the latter not only FNumbers but also focal lengths are not converted. Seems a Sigma issue.

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SungiBr
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Re: HD DA TC x1,4: no Sigma HSM; not making FF compatible
In reply to beholder3, 7 months ago

beholder3 wrote:

Sigma 180 Macro and 105 Macro seem to be doing fine. Looks like screw-driven lenses are fine and only HSMs dont work. On the latter not only FNumbers but also focal lengths are not converted. Seems a Sigma issue.

I remember that newer nikons can't properly focus with some sigma lenses to. That was caused by the reverse engineering sigma employs on their lenses, and was adressed with firmware updates for some of their lenses so they can work on nikon bodies.

Still, Ricoh/Pentax didn't state their TC is compatible with third party lenses

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james45
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Re: HD DA TC x1,4: no Sigma HSM; not making FF compatible
In reply to SungiBr, 7 months ago

beholder3 wrote:

Sigma 180 Macro and 105 Macro seem to be doing fine. Looks like screw-driven lenses are fine and only HSMs dont work. On the latter not only FNumbers but also focal lengths are not converted. Seems a Sigma issue.

I remember that newer nikons can't properly focus with some sigma lenses to. That was caused by the reverse engineering sigma employs on their lenses, and was adressed with firmware updates for some of their lenses so they can work on nikon bodies.

Still, Ricoh/Pentax didn't state their TC is compatible with third party lenses

Thanks everyone. The standoff between camera manufacturers and 3rd party lens makers is understandable... but a little childish to be still running 40 years on, and somewhat irritating to the consumer.

In this case, I'm inclined to vote with my feet and get a 2nd hand Sigma 1.4x converter next time I see one on an auction site.

(And indeed there may shortly be a few, as people buy the Pentax, I suspect!)

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Bmoon
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Re: HD DA TC x1,4: no Sigma HSM; not making FF compatible
In reply to james45, 7 months ago

james45 wrote:

beholder3 wrote:

Sigma 180 Macro and 105 Macro seem to be doing fine. Looks like screw-driven lenses are fine and only HSMs dont work. On the latter not only FNumbers but also focal lengths are not converted. Seems a Sigma issue.

I remember that newer nikons can't properly focus with some sigma lenses to. That was caused by the reverse engineering sigma employs on their lenses, and was adressed with firmware updates for some of their lenses so they can work on nikon bodies.

Still, Ricoh/Pentax didn't state their TC is compatible with third party lenses

Thanks everyone. The standoff between camera manufacturers and 3rd party lens makers is understandable... but a little childish to be still running 40 years on, and somewhat irritating to the consumer.

In this case, I'm inclined to vote with my feet and get a 2nd hand Sigma 1.4x converter next time I see one on an auction site.

(And indeed there may shortly be a few, as people buy the Pentax, I suspect!)

One of the problem with sigma tc on pentax is that the incorrect fl is given to the body so SR calibrated for the native lenses FL

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awaldram
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Re: HD DA TC x1,4: no Sigma HSM; not making FF compatible
In reply to Bmoon, 7 months ago

Bmoon wrote:

james45 wrote:

beholder3 wrote:

Sigma 180 Macro and 105 Macro seem to be doing fine. Looks like screw-driven lenses are fine and only HSMs dont work. On the latter not only FNumbers but also focal lengths are not converted. Seems a Sigma issue.

I remember that newer nikons can't properly focus with some sigma lenses to. That was caused by the reverse engineering sigma employs on their lenses, and was adressed with firmware updates for some of their lenses so they can work on nikon bodies.

Still, Ricoh/Pentax didn't state their TC is compatible with third party lenses

Thanks everyone. The standoff between camera manufacturers and 3rd party lens makers is understandable... but a little childish to be still running 40 years on, and somewhat irritating to the consumer.

In this case, I'm inclined to vote with my feet and get a 2nd hand Sigma 1.4x converter next time I see one on an auction site.

(And indeed there may shortly be a few, as people buy the Pentax, I suspect!)

One of the problem with sigma tc on pentax is that the incorrect fl is given to the body so SR calibrated for the native lenses FL

And has no Pz contacts so won't AF Sigma HSM either.

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GossCTP
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Re: HD DA TC x1,4: no Sigma HSM; not making FF compatible
In reply to james45, 7 months ago

james45 wrote:

Thanks everyone. The standoff between camera manufacturers and 3rd party lens makers is understandable... but a little childish to be still running 40 years on, and somewhat irritating to the consumer.

The way I see it, that irritating childishness is where all the profit comes from. There is no technical reason to have the number of mounts that we have today - particularly APS-C. The sole reason is to keep people contained within a system. If they don't handicap third party and legacy glass, how can they charge more for the new stuff? That goes for all manufacturers.

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KentG
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Re: HD DA TC x1,4: no Sigma HSM; not making FF compatible
In reply to GossCTP, 7 months ago

Now your being a little childish. All lens mounts were proprietary when they started even though some companies started out making lenses for others before becoming camera makers themselves. The only reason we have standards like 4/3 and M4/3 is because of profits. They were not going to become viable systems without involving multiple companies and adhering to a standard mount. Some mount designs were done to maximise the potential advantages of SLRs and others to do the same for rangefinder cameras. If Sigma had not won a big case against the Big 4 back in the late 60's or so we would likely not have 3rd party lense at all. And definitely would not have the camera companies selling lens mount licenses to other lens makers like Tamron and Tokina (they do that so that other companies will compete with Sigma)(Sony now owns most of Tamron). If not for Sigma, OEM lenses would likely cost more than they do now. And no company is going to change their mount to someone elses or a common one. They would automatically alienate their entire customer base. In spite of the fact that the Big 4 had a blanket cross licensing arrangement for decades if not still (see that as Japan against the world in cameras).

Kent Gittings

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GossCTP
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Re: HD DA TC x1,4: no Sigma HSM; not making FF compatible
In reply to KentG, 7 months ago

KentG wrote:

Now your being a little childish.

Perhaps I should have quoted that part, as it wasn't my word.

All lens mounts were proprietary when they started even though some companies started out making lenses for others before becoming camera makers themselves.

Yes. And the reason they were proprietary was to create a system. A system to limit competition and raise the barriers of entry. It happens all the time in many industries. Some use the profits to further R&D and flesh out the system, while others use their position to try to lock out potential competitors through lobbying and lawsuits.

The only reason we have standards like 4/3 and M4/3 is because of profits. They were not going to become viable systems without involving multiple companies and adhering to a standard mount.

4/3 is a different animal. It was done from scratch for a different format size.

Some mount designs were done to maximise the potential advantages of SLRs and others to do the same for rangefinder cameras.

There have been advantages here and there that persisted for a few years, but by and large all makers catch up. Either by adding to their mount, or else creating a new mount from scratch that is also proprietary.

If Sigma had not won a big case against the Big 4 back in the late 60's or so we would likely not have 3rd party lense at all.

Or we would have had more lawsuits.

And definitely would not have the camera companies selling lens mount licenses to other lens makers like Tamron and Tokina (they do that so that other companies will compete with Sigma)(Sony now owns most of Tamron). If not for Sigma, OEM lenses would likely cost more than they do now. And no company is going to change their mount to someone elses or a common one. They would automatically alienate their entire customer base. In spite of the fact that the Big 4 had a blanket cross licensing arrangement for decades if not still (see that as Japan against the world in cameras).

Kent Gittings

The fact that Sigma can make so many lenses in so many mounts and the Tamron Adaptal system existed seems to support my assertion that there isn't a technical reason for all the different mounts to exist. Not for a given type of camera or format anyhow. It is to create systems. I'm not trying to condone or condemn it, but that is how I see it.

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Barry Pearson
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Re: HD DA TC x1,4: no Sigma HSM; not making FF compatible
In reply to beholder3, 7 months ago

beholder3 wrote:

Just to confirm two items:

  • <snip>
  • While in theory a TC would convert the FoV to make APSC lenses FF-compatible in practise they dont, due to the fact that the lens system in the TC has such a small diameter and you get hard black vignetting all around. Tested with some lenses on 5D3.

That doesn't appear to be true for the Pentax 1.4 Teleconverter.

The first thing I did when my Pentax 1.4x Teleconverter arrived a few minutes ago was to attach it to a Pentax Z-1p film camera. Then I attached various lenses (below) that might be expected to hard-vignette. None of them showed signs of vignetting, looking through the viewfinder at a well-lit surface.

The lenses I tested that apparently didn't hard-vignette at any focal length , showing image right to the corners, were:

DA 10-17mm Fisheye. (Not on the Pentax list of supported lenses!). This hard-vignettes on the Z-1p at 10mm and 12mm without a Teleconverter.

DA 12-24mm. This hard-vignettes badly on the Z-1p at wide angles without a Teleconverter.

DA 17-70mm. This hard-vignettes at all focal lengths on the Z-1p without a Teleconverter.

DA* 60-250mm.

I haven't yet tested any other lenses on the Z-1p with this Teleconverter. I may shoot my last roll of film with a range of lenses using this Teleconverter on the Z-1p to complete my previous tests of lenses on the Z-1p.

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beholder3
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Re: HD DA TC x1,4: no Sigma HSM; not making FF compatible
In reply to Barry Pearson, 7 months ago

Barry Pearson wrote:

beholder3 wrote:

Just to confirm two items:

  • <snip>
  • While in theory a TC would convert the FoV to make APSC lenses FF-compatible in practise they dont, due to the fact that the lens system in the TC has such a small diameter and you get hard black vignetting all around. Tested with some lenses on 5D3.

That doesn't appear to be true for the Pentax 1.4 Teleconverter.

You are right. I havent updated my post here later.

I tested with DA 15 and Sigma 8-16 and both hard vignetting came from the unlucky combination of either fixed hood (Sigma) or not fully retracted hood (DA 15) combined with the fact that the adapter mounts the lens somewhat turned to the side so the petal shaped hoods come into sight.

Even the K50/1.2 works fine as does the DA 15. See http://www.dslr-forum.de/showpost.php?p=12056039&postcount=129

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Stig Vidar Hovland
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Re: HD DA TC x1,4: no Sigma HSM; not making FF compatible
In reply to beholder3, 7 months ago

beholder3 wrote:

I tested with DA 15 and Sigma 8-16 and both hard vignetting came from the unlucky combination of either fixed hood (Sigma) or not fully retracted hood (DA 15) combined with the fact that the adapter mounts the lens somewhat turned to the side so the petal shaped hoods come into sight.

I suppose you didn't read this from the specification?

Please refrain from equipping the following lenses since the rear converter lens might touch the joint part of those main lenses - HD PENTAX-DA 15mm F4 ED AL Limited / HD PENTAX-DA 21mm F3.2 AL Limited / smc PENTAX-DA 40mm F2.8 XS

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Barry Pearson
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Re: HD DA TC x1,4: no Sigma HSM; not making FF compatible
In reply to Stig Vidar Hovland, 7 months ago

Stig Vidar Hovland wrote:

beholder3 wrote:

I tested with DA 15 and Sigma 8-16 and both hard vignetting came from the unlucky combination of either fixed hood (Sigma) or not fully retracted hood (DA 15) combined with the fact that the adapter mounts the lens somewhat turned to the side so the petal shaped hoods come into sight.

I suppose you didn't read this from the specification?

Please refrain from equipping the following lenses since the rear converter lens might touch the joint part of those main lenses - HD PENTAX-DA 15mm F4 ED AL Limited / HD PENTAX-DA 21mm F3.2 AL Limited / smc PENTAX-DA 40mm F2.8 XS

That is a good point! With lenses on the "compatible" list, they are properly aligned, so perhaps we now know what happens when the lens hits the converter!

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beholder3
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Re: HD DA TC x1,4: no Sigma HSM; not making FF compatible
In reply to Stig Vidar Hovland, 7 months ago

Stig Vidar Hovland wrote:

beholder3 wrote:

I tested with DA 15 and Sigma 8-16 and both hard vignetting came from the unlucky combination of either fixed hood (Sigma) or not fully retracted hood (DA 15) combined with the fact that the adapter mounts the lens somewhat turned to the side so the petal shaped hoods come into sight.

I suppose you didn't read this from the specification?

Please refrain from equipping the following lenses since the rear converter lens might touch the joint part of those main lenses - HD PENTAX-DA 15mm F4 ED AL Limited / HD PENTAX-DA 21mm F3.2 AL Limited / smc PENTAX-DA 40mm F2.8 XS

I was fully aware. Nothing hit anything even when fully extended. Works allright (but doesnt make sense in real life anyway).

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derekkite
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Re: HD DA TC x1,4: no Sigma HSM; not making FF compatible
In reply to beholder3, 7 months ago

150-500 Sigma HSM lens focuses, but the fstop and focal length are not corrected.

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