At what size of print out of D700 will show the same quality as that of D600.

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SRS_Photography
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At what size of print out of D700 will show the same quality as that of D600.
6 months ago

All,

What is the max size of D700 print out that will still show the same quality as that of D600, assuming the same dpi is used in printing the photo.

Ron

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Nikon D600 Nikon D700
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AllOtherNamesTaken
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Re: At what size of print out of D700 will show the same quality as that of D600.
In reply to SRS_Photography, 6 months ago

SRS_Photography wrote:

All,

What is the max size of D700 print out that will still show the same quality as that of D600, assuming the same dpi is used in printing the photo.

Ron

That depends entirely on the DPI you want.  "Excellent" print quality is usually 300 DPI, but you can get away with a lot less if viewing distance will be larger.

A D700 can print about 15X10" inches at 300 DPI, but a 24X30" would look great still.

A D600 can print about about 13X20" at 300 DPI

Again, you don't need 300 DPI for a good print, especially if there is some distance from the viewer.  I have 32X48" prints from my D600 that are stunningly sharp at even 6-inches away.  I'd be comfortable printing 40X60" if there was a reasonable viewing distance.  There is also up-res software like Genuine Fractals that can help give you an extra edge if you want to print huge.

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Trazan
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Re: At what size of print out of D700 will show the same quality as that of D600.
In reply to SRS_Photography, 6 months ago

24.3 vs 12.1 Mpix

sqrt(24.3)/sqrt(12.1) = 1.42

Purely based on pixel resolution, the D600 will give you a print 1.42 times wider/taller than the D700.

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ebuddha
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Re: At what size of print out of D700 will show the same quality as that of D600.
In reply to SRS_Photography, 6 months ago

great question - most people have way too much resolution for their needs.

a 30" monitor only requires a 4MB file to fill it up.
an ipad only requires 3MB.

Required print resolution is a function of viewing distance.
One thought is that comfortable viewing is 1.5x the diagonal.
Then, the PPI required for a print to have 'minimum acceptable quality' is found using this formula:
PPI = 3438 / viewing distance

As an example, an 8" x 10" print has a diagonal of 12.8"
and thus a viewing distance of 19.2"
The minimum PPI required would be: 179 - which is only a 2.6MB file.

Personally, I prefer using 1x the diagonal in the formula, which implies a minimum PPI for an 8x10 to be: 269. That would mean a 6MB file is sufficient.

As far as using the number 3438, you can look this up online, it has something to do with "visual acuity angle, a measure of how much resolution the human visual system can perceive"

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ebuddha
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Re: At what size of print out of D700 will show the same quality as that of D600.
In reply to ebuddha, 6 months ago

I should also point out that most of my prints are hung on the wall and I print at 31" x 52" at 143 ppi (d800 file cropped to match the aspect ratio). They look great from across the room but always surprise me how well they hold up standing 2 feet in front of them.

I'd say for 'desktop' sized printing, 286 ppi (3438 / 12" viewing distance) and anything bigger 143 ppi (24" viewing distance) will look great.

Then just figure out how big you want to print and whatever camera has that resolution will work.

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ebuddha
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Re: At what size of print out of D700 will show the same quality as that of D600.
In reply to SRS_Photography, 6 months ago

SRS_Photography wrote:

All,

What is the max size of D700 print out that will still show the same quality as that of D600, assuming the same dpi is used in printing the photo.

Ron

To answer your question directly,

for desktop viewing, printed at 286 ppi

the d700 can print 14.8 x 9.9

the d600 can print 21 x 14

for print to be hung on the wall and printed at 143 ppi

the d700 can print 29.7 x 19.8

the d600 can print 42 x 28

that should help guide you as to which camera fits your needs.

hope that helps, sorry for the long winded explanation,

and before any flame-throwers start up, I know there are those of you who print posters from a D70, but I'm just trying to illustrate a framework for making a decision.

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foto2021
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Re: At what size of print out of D700 will show the same quality as that of D600.
In reply to ebuddha, 6 months ago

ebuddha wrote:

for desktop viewing, printed at 286 ppi

the d700 can print 14.8 x 9.9

the d600 can print 21 x 14

for print to be hung on the wall and printed at 143 ppi

the d700 can print 29.7 x 19.8

the d600 can print 42 x 28

that should help guide you as to which camera fits your needs.

There appear to be some gross assumptions implicit in the above figures. The principal assumption would seem to be that the greater number of pixels of the D600 sensor versus the D700 sensor is fully reflected in the quality of the output.

If only life were so simple.

You can improve the image quality of any DSLR by using a higher quality lens (a lens with greater resolution). That's without changing the pixel count at all.

On the other hand, using the same lens on a DSLR whose a sensor has a higher pixel count will improve image quality, but not to the degree suggested by the ratio of the greater pixel count to the lesser. For example, using the same lens on a D600 as you used on the D700 could mean that the improvement in image quality was substantially less than would be suggested by the doubling in pixel count.

To obtain the full benefit of the doubling in pixel count, the linear (lp/mm) resolution of the lens used on the D600 would need to be approximately 1.42 times better than the lens that was used on the D700. Even that is a gross assumption ... but it is a rather more reliable assumption than one based solely on counting pixels without taking anything else into account.

Perhaps another way of looking at this issue would be to ask why so many professional shooters can deliver better image quality from a 16 MP Nikon D4 than their amateur counterparts with a 36 MP Nikon D800. The answer is, it's more complicated than you think.

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ebuddha
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Re: At what size of print out of D700 will show the same quality as that of D600.
In reply to foto2021, 6 months ago

foto2021 wrote:

ebuddha wrote:

for desktop viewing, printed at 286 ppi

the d700 can print 14.8 x 9.9

the d600 can print 21 x 14

for print to be hung on the wall and printed at 143 ppi

the d700 can print 29.7 x 19.8

the d600 can print 42 x 28

that should help guide you as to which camera fits your needs.

There appear to be some gross assumptions implicit in the above figures. The principal assumption would seem to be that the greater number of pixels of the D600 sensor versus the D700 sensor is fully reflected in the quality of the output.

my comments were not related to the quality of the pixels, noise characteristics of the sensor nor its dynamic range....nor lens choice or shooting technique.  but rather respond to his question about comparing the print output between to cameras,

Ceteris paribus

in the old days you had to take an econ class to know what that means - but today, you can look it up on google.

If only life were so simple.

You can improve the image quality of any DSLR by using a higher quality lens (a lens with greater resolution). That's without changing the pixel count at all.

On the other hand, using the same lens on a DSLR whose a sensor has a higher pixel count will improve image quality, but not to the degree suggested by the ratio of the greater pixel count to the lesser. For example, using the same lens on a D600 as you used on the D700 could mean that the improvement in image quality was substantially less than would be suggested by the doubling in pixel count.

To obtain the full benefit of the doubling in pixel count, the linear (lp/mm) resolution of the lens used on the D600 would need to be approximately 1.42 times better than the lens that was used on the D700. Even that is a gross assumption ... but it is a rather more reliable assumption than one based solely on counting pixels without taking anything else into account.

Perhaps another way of looking at this issue would be to ask why so many professional shooters can deliver better image quality from a 16 MP Nikon D4 than their amateur counterparts with a 36 MP Nikon D800. The answer is, it's more complicated than you think.

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Colin

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SRS_Photography
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Re: Simpler question to get to the specific answer
In reply to SRS_Photography, 6 months ago

First of all, I would like to thank everybody who has tried to answer my question.

To be specific, I want to buy a D610. Currently, I have D700. I want to know if I print 11 x 14, will I see any difference in terms of sharpness if I use D610 and D700 with the following assumptions:

1. Printed at Costco

2. The exact same lens (because I am not buying new lenses, the lenses that I have are 24-70mm f2.8, 70-200 mm f2.8, etc)

Basically all the same, only the camera body is different.

Ron

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LSR
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Re: At what size of print out of D700 will show the same quality as that of D600.
In reply to SRS_Photography, 6 months ago

SRS_Photography wrote:

All,

What is the max size of D700 print out that will still show the same quality as that of D600, assuming the same dpi is used in printing the photo.

Ron

The D600 has a weaker low pass filter so pixel per pixel compared to the D700 the D600 will have better acutance.

In terms of print size, the differences begin to show at not much larger than 8x10. Some will argue that you can go a lot larger on the D700, and of course you can, but 8x10 and larger is when you start seeing sharpness differences if you stick your nose in the print.

Whether the differences are meaningful or not depends on viewing distance, lighting, one's eyesight, and ultimately the person viewing the image. Photographers with a trained eye and high visual acuity will be able to see differences that other casual viewers won't be able to see, so there's really no universal answer to your question.

I assume by "quality" you are referring to sharpness but that's only one parameter and not necessarily the most important one. The newer sensor in the D600 has much better dynamic range and colour fidelity than the D700 sensor, and if you take these into consideration as quality parameters then the D600 will show better quality than the D700 in any print size.

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PerL
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Re: Simpler question to get to the specific answer
In reply to SRS_Photography, 6 months ago

SRS_Photography wrote:

First of all, I would like to thank everybody who has tried to answer my question.

To be specific, I want to buy a D610. Currently, I have D700. I want to know if I print 11 x 14, will I see any difference in terms of sharpness if I use D610 and D700 with the following assumptions:

1. Printed at Costco

2. The exact same lens (because I am not buying new lenses, the lenses that I have are 24-70mm f2.8, 70-200 mm f2.8, etc)

Basically all the same, only the camera body is different.

Ron

It depends on what you are shooting. Some things are more revealing than others, like foliage, grass etc in a landscape shot or a detailed cityscape. I made a comparison with a 12 mp APS-C and a 24 mp FF with 50x70 cm prints. If you look closely you can pick out the 24 mp shot without hesitation, but it is not something that jumps at you.

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anotherMike
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Re: Simpler question to get to the specific answer
In reply to SRS_Photography, 6 months ago

With those parameters, you're on the border of whether it would make enough difference.

If you had said 13x19" (or larger) and you printed at home on a top end printer (Epson 3800, Epson 3000, etc), I'd have said yes and stopped right there.

But 11x14" from Costco?  It will depend on subject matter. A nice sunset or night water or building night shot, probably not. A highly detailed wide angle landscape with a foreground full of flowers and foilage, or a detailed waterfall shot with foilage - yea, probably, but it won't be earth shattering at that size.

Also keep in mind "sharpness" isn't really detail. Sharpness is often just edge acutance, something that can be handled by proper sharpening, and if the subject matter has strong edges but no real fine, granular detail, the d700 will do well. But if the subject, again, has lots of fine, granular detail, then you'll see the differences when you go to 24mp and higher. But at 11x14" the differences may not be enough to worry about. So again, in this particular case, you're kind of "on the edge" of whether the increase in mp will be worth it across the board...

Don't worry about lenses - looking at your gear list, you're fine.

-m

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Leonard Shepherd
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Re: At what size of print out of D700 will show the same quality as that of D600.
In reply to SRS_Photography, 6 months ago

On a detail the notion of 300 seems to be a printing industry requirement based on laying down the C, M, Y and K inks each at the maximum image resolution of the eye at about 12-15 inches of about 75. 75 x 4 colours equals 300.

150 can be OK in an inkjet and sometimes looks slightly sharper than 300, though with less tonal detail.

Comparing D3s to D800 the D800 has, with a good lens at optimum aperture and base ISO, about 20-25% more file resolution and better tonal separation though, as a rule of thumb, you need to print bigger than about 20 inches wide to see the differences.

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Leonard Shepherd
We all aspire to take great photos but may always achieve this perhaps due to a lack of application, a lack of knowledge, or even a lack of talent.
The best photographers probably work quite hard at their photography.

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SRS_Photography
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Re: At what size of print out of D700 will show the same quality as that of D600.
In reply to Leonard Shepherd, 6 months ago

Thx all for the replies. For now, since I have no plan to print bigger than 11 x 14, I do not need to buy D600 or D800. I will just wait the next cycle.

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VertigonA380
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Re: At what size of print out of D700 will show the same quality as that of D600.
In reply to SRS_Photography, 6 months ago

The D700 will be just fine at that size. For everyone else printing quality is more complex than the simple mathematics would suggest. I did some tests a while ago and the results were surprising. These were done on a Epson 4880, A2 size, UltraChrome K3 inks (8) on premium Epson Glossy photopaper. I noticed improvements all the way to 360x360 dpi, from there on you would have needed extremely sharp vision and time to study the nuances across the tonal range (at about 5 inches or 125mm viewing distance. Images from a D800E. Sure its a close viewing distance but as you might suspect people do put there nose right up to the print when they love a photo. I concluded that 720 x 720 dpi would probably be the most resolution required by just about anyone other than fussy fine art exhibitors.

Post processing technique, colour and printer calibration, fresh ink and the right paper can all make a big difference before you even worry about the sensor capacity in the camera. Printer calibration is probably the biggest hitter, all things being equal. For a rough idea, divide the cameras largest image dimensions by 360 and that will give you a good indication of the printing potential (FX cameras).

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Stacey_K
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+1 on printer calibration
In reply to VertigonA380, 6 months ago

Printer calibration is probably the biggest hitter, all things being equal.

The biggest improvement to my prints was after having a custom printer profile created for my printer/paper/ink and printing using Qimage.

Talking about at base ISO, I got really nice 11X14 prints from my E1 at 5MP. I honestly can't see any real difference at this size (again at base ISO) between my D200 and my D7000. Lens IQ, the type of printer/software etc make more difference at this print size than sensor MP once you get past 10-12MP.

I would suggest to the OP, instead of buying a new camera for $3000 to have costco print the results, spend that money on a really nice printer, have a custom profile made for it and see a MUCH larger improvement in print quality.

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calson
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Wrong question
In reply to SRS_Photography, 6 months ago

The larger the print the greater the normal viewing distance. I have my face a lot closer to an 8x10 print than I do for a 20x30 print of the same scene or subject. I will have the 8x10 at a distance of 2-3 feet and the 20x30 print will be viewed at a distance of 6 feet or more.

So it is not a simple matter of pixel density or even pixel data processing effectiveness. I did a series of test shots using the same 70-200mm f2.8 VR II lens on both a D300 12MP camera and the D3 12MP camera and both with RAW capture. The D300 lacked the detail and tonal gradations of the D3. It was an eye opener for me when I saw the substantial difference on my monitor. The D3 had a better sensor and better processing chips and this showed clearly in the files it produced.

The D610 is two generations more advanced than the D700 so having a theoretical gain of about 50% in potential resolution is not relevant but what is relevant is the ability of the sensor to capture information coming through the lens and the ability of the in-camera processors to work with that data to produce a RAW file. Some Sony cameras have used the same sensor as some Nikon cameras but there were significant differences in the files produced by the Sony and Nikon cameras.

What I was quick to notice with my D800e is that a JPEG from this camera could hold up very nearly as much enlargement (without using Adobe's engine or that of a third party to process the image) as I could achieve with a D3 RAW image file. That to me is indicative of the amount of data in the file.

Making a print is very different for many reasons. With Adobe or other software files have been created with the D2h and sent to labs who used interpolation with their printers to produce gallery quality 20x30 prints. If you are making a print this interpolation does smoothing between the pixels or dots that allows for deficiencies in the digital printer technology but also means that there is not a simple calculation that can be done in terms of the maximum print size.

One only needs 140 dpi for posters and 110 dpi is commonly used for billboard pictures - back again to viewing distance. It also depends on the amount of detail in the subject material. I need more resolution for a landscape scene than I do for a portrait. For my wedding photography 12MP was more than enough and the only time a higher resolution might have been helpful was with a group picture of 30 or more people. This applies to landscape prints as well were a D800e is the minimum camera needed to completely replace a 4x5 camera with a high resolution digital back and making extremely large prints, prints that are much larger than 99% of photographers will ever have cause to make and require a $8,000 printer.

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wasserball
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Don't get complicated. Follow this rule...
In reply to SRS_Photography, 6 months ago
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John M Roberts
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Re: +1 on printer calibration
In reply to Stacey_K, 6 months ago

Stacey_K wrote:

Printer calibration is probably the biggest hitter, all things being equal.

The biggest improvement to my prints was after having a custom printer profile created for my printer/paper/ink and printing using Qimage.

Talking about at base ISO, I got really nice 11X14 prints from my E1 at 5MP. I honestly can't see any real difference at this size (again at base ISO) between my D200 and my D7000. Lens IQ, the type of printer/software etc make more difference at this print size than sensor MP once you get past 10-12MP.

I would suggest to the OP, instead of buying a new camera for $3000 to have costco print the results,

Costco provides profiles from Dry Creek to use with some of their printers.

spend that money on a really nice printer, have a custom profile made for it and see a MUCH larger improvement in print quality.

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pcm81
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Re: At what size of print out of D700 will show the same quality as that of D600.
In reply to ebuddha, 6 months ago

ebuddha wrote:

SRS_Photography wrote:

All,

What is the max size of D700 print out that will still show the same quality as that of D600, assuming the same dpi is used in printing the photo.

Ron

To answer your question directly,

for desktop viewing, printed at 286 ppi

the d700 can print 14.8 x 9.9

the d600 can print 21 x 14

for print to be hung on the wall and printed at 143 ppi

the d700 can print 29.7 x 19.8

the d600 can print 42 x 28

that should help guide you as to which camera fits your needs.

hope that helps, sorry for the long winded explanation,

and before any flame-throwers start up, I know there are those of you who print posters from a D70, but I'm just trying to illustrate a framework for making a decision.

+1

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1. D800 is the first camera with resolution so high that it simply does not matter.
2. Most people who do not own/shoot d800 misunderstand it. Color depth and accuracy in addition to resolution is what makes d800 great. Resolution alone is over rated.

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