ZEISS FE 24-70 gets DxO marked !!!

Started 7 months ago | Discussions
Miguel Teotonio
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ZEISS FE 24-70 gets DxO marked !!!
7 months ago

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/zeiss-24-70mm-fe-lens-gest-dxomarked/

So much whining on the net about the lens and then it gets a better score than canikon rivals.

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Miguel Teotónio

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bluevellet
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Re: ZEISS FE 24-70 gets DxO marked !!!
In reply to Miguel Teotonio, 7 months ago

Pity they didn't try it on the A7 as well.

They've got some tests on the APS-C NEX7 and A3000, but it doesn't score very high then, even compared to crop-sensored peers.

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Gary H
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Re: ZEISS FE 24-70 gets DxO marked !!!
In reply to Miguel Teotonio, 7 months ago

Miguel Teotonio wrote:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/zeiss-24-70mm-fe-lens-gest-dxomarked/

So much whining on the net about the lens and then it gets a better score than canikon rivals.

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Miguel Teotónio

Before you go out and celebrate, please look at the resolution of the two sensors used to test the two lenses that you are comparing.

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KwhyChang
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Re: ZEISS FE 24-70 gets DxO marked !!!
In reply to Gary H, 7 months ago

The Canon looked really good in those tests.

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Dave

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Jabez02
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Re: ZEISS FE 24-70 gets DxO marked !!!
In reply to Gary H, 7 months ago

Actually a 36 MP sensor without AA should be the most uncompromising  of the three.

Although I will note than the Sony lens is some $200 to $300 more expensive so it is expected to perform better.

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Erik Magnuson
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Re: ZEISS FE 24-70 gets DxO marked !!!
In reply to Jabez02, 7 months ago

Jabez02 wrote:

Actually a 36 MP sensor without AA should be the most uncompromising of the three.

The way DxO scores lenses in general favors higher resolution sensors because they are comparing end-system resolution and not relative to perfect.

Although I will note than the Sony lens is some $200 to $300 more expensive so it is expected to perform better.

Right now the street prices are the same (after rebate on the Canon.)  Normal advertised price is $300 higher for the Canon.

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Fred Briggs
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Re: ZEISS FE 24-70 gets DxO marked !!!
In reply to Gary H, 7 months ago

Gary H wrote:

Miguel Teotonio wrote:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/zeiss-24-70mm-fe-lens-gest-dxomarked/

So much whining on the net about the lens and then it gets a better score than canikon rivals.

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Miguel Teotónio

Before you go out and celebrate, please look at the resolution of the two sensors used to test the two lenses that you are comparing.

I've compared the Sony FE 24-70 (scores 25 on 36MP A7R) with the Nikon 24-85 (scores 21 on 36MP D800) and Nikon 24-70 (scores 28 on 36MP D800)

When I look at the Nikon 24-85 and 24-70 on the 24MP D600 they score 21 and 27 respectively, so no great change.  The perceptual sharpness scores remain unchanged on 14P and 15P respectively.

Based on this I expect the Sony 24-70 to get a score of 24 or 25 on the 24MP A7 - i.e no great change.

I suspect this is because with zoom lenses on 24MP upwards sensors, resolution is lens limited not sensor limited.

Fred

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Miguel Teotonio
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Re: ZEISS FE 24-70 gets DxO marked !!!
In reply to Gary H, 7 months ago

I did that!

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robert1955
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link to dxo
In reply to Miguel Teotonio, 7 months ago
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Dustinash
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Re: ZEISS FE 24-70 gets DxO marked !!!
In reply to Gary H, 7 months ago

Gary H wrote:

Miguel Teotonio wrote:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/zeiss-24-70mm-fe-lens-gest-dxomarked/

So much whining on the net about the lens and then it gets a better score than canikon rivals.

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Miguel Teotónio

Before you go out and celebrate, please look at the resolution of the two sensors used to test the two lenses that you are comparing.

I don't know why they give the Sony a higher score then the Canon.  The canon beats it on every stat.. Its half a stop faster, slightly sharper (even on a lower rez sensor), it vignettes less and has less distortion.  I suspect the Zeiss beats it in corner sharpness and stabalization.

I am going to purchase this lens because there are no alternatives that offer stabalized autofocus in this range.  However if Sigma does bring out an E-mount ART lens in this range I will be selling it and going for that.

A shame when I am already looking to sell a ziess for a sigma that doesnt exist.

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PorscheDoc
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Re: ZEISS FE 24-70 gets DxO marked !!!
In reply to Miguel Teotonio, 7 months ago

The actual DxO review was only so-so:

"...Compared to the recently revised $1,300 Nikon AF-S VR Zoom-Nikkor 24-120mm f4G ED the Zeiss fares quite well, but peak sharpness looks a little low when compared with the stabilized Canon EF 24-70mm f4L IS USM....

...Performance of the Zeiss Vario-Tessar is good overall but it’s not without some idiosyncrasies. On the one hand it has very good uniformity, barring a dip wide-open at 24mm, it’s sharp right out to the corners.

Control of other aberrations at the wide end – chromatic aberration, distortion and vignetting isn’t quite what we would expect, but at all other focal lengths the lens performs well. Given the not unreasonable price of the lens (and the camera body for that matter), Sony has managed to deliver a balance of performance and value, while at the same time offering something different to the mainstream options. There’s little doubt it’s an attractive combination, but it’s not quite the resounding success we believed it would be."

I am still considering getting this zoom once my  A7r arrives.

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LeicaBOSS
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Re: ZEISS FE 24-70 gets DxO marked !!!
In reply to PorscheDoc, 7 months ago

1. The DxO data are always a mess. Look , I love the lens and will definitely keep it - but that data at 24mm is messed up. Nobody has sharp corners at 24mm with this lens. This DxO stuff is so goofy and counter-reality

2. We have to stop putting much stock in the data from the various lens/sensor combinations on DxO. Most of it is extrapolated vs. measured, it's hard to know when you're looking at their "best guess" or real data

4. What this data doesn't show is how really beautiful the fine / microcontrast is on this lens. I hate how they only have this "sharpness" stat, when resolution and contrast are so different, and should not be treated differently. With DxO - a kind of "high-resolving" lens with crappy, dull, boring contrast and colors will always look better on the chart. And people gobble it up - arguing over the data like it means something in practice.

5. There is no #3

Here's a photo. This picture has a P-MPx map score of 13.4.

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dbm305
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Re: ZEISS FE 24-70 gets DxO marked !!!
In reply to bluevellet, 7 months ago

even compared to crop censored peers?

A crop lens ought to perform better (especially in the centre) on crop than a FF lens.

The FF lens might be a little more even; but the point is that the pixel density on a crop sensor is such that lenses are designed for very high sharpness over a smaller field. An FF lens has to be sharp over a much wider field, but since the pixel density is lower, it isn't as sharp per unit area of its field, if that makes any sense.

Anyhow: bottom line is that peak sharpness for an equally good design on crop should be higher with a well designed crop lens than a FF lens.

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LTZ470
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Re: ZEISS FE 24-70 gets DxO marked !!!
In reply to Miguel Teotonio, 7 months ago

Miguel Teotonio wrote:

I did that!

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Miguel Teotónio

Not very well...

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steven_k
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Re: ZEISS FE 24-70 gets DxO marked !!!
In reply to LeicaBOSS, 7 months ago

This lens on a A7 not an A7r shot at F8, is there anyway it could replace the 2 FE primes?

Primarily for landscapes

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LeicaBOSS
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Re: ZEISS FE 24-70 gets DxO marked !!!
In reply to LTZ470, 7 months ago

You do realize that it's almost certain that they didn't actually put the lens on a NEX-7. Those scores are just "predicted" based on the sensor data and the lens data from whatever camera they did the actual tests on.

You really cannot use DxO scores like they are reliable and repeatable.

steven_k

Not really "replace" but it's close enough that many people can pass on the FE 35mm. Bokeh not as good. Corners not as good. Not as compact. BUT... at 35mm the 24-70mm is really solid and without those odd concentric color rings that the FE 35mm has.

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Kirino
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Re: ZEISS FE 24-70 gets DxO marked !!!
In reply to LeicaBOSS, 7 months ago

LeicaBOSS wrote:

You do realize that it's almost certain that they didn't actually put the lens on a NEX-7. Those scores are just "predicted" based on the sensor data and the lens data from whatever camera they did the actual tests on.

You really cannot use DxO scores like they are reliable and repeatable.

steven_k

Not really "replace" but it's close enough that many people can pass on the FE 35mm. Bokeh not as good. Corners not as good. Not as compact. BUT... at 35mm the 24-70mm is really solid and without those odd concentric color rings that the FE 35mm has.

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From time to time, I point my camera at the right things. This is generally when I forget everything I've learned.

LOL. How do you generate those field maps without putting the lens on to the NEX 7. If what you say is true, can you explain why lens are testing better on the A3000 20 megapixel sensor?

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captura
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Re: ZEISS FE 24-70 gets DxO marked !!!
In reply to Kirino, 7 months ago

Kirino wrote:

LeicaBOSS wrote:

You do realize that it's almost certain that they didn't actually put the lens on a NEX-7. Those scores are just "predicted" based on the sensor data and the lens data from whatever camera they did the actual tests on.

You really cannot use DxO scores like they are reliable and repeatable.

steven_k

Not really "replace" but it's close enough that many people can pass on the FE 35mm. Bokeh not as good. Corners not as good. Not as compact. BUT... at 35mm the 24-70mm is really solid and without those odd concentric color rings that the FE 35mm has.

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From time to time, I point my camera at the right things. This is generally when I forget everything I've learned.

LOL. How do you generate those field maps without putting the lens on to the NEX 7. If what you say is true, can you explain why lens are testing better on the A3000 20 megapixel sensor?

And if DxO did indeed test using a NEX-7, then the comparative tests are next to useless because of the anomalous NEX-7 sensor. (as discussed.)

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LeicaBOSS
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Re: ZEISS FE 24-70 gets DxO marked !!!
In reply to Kirino, 7 months ago

Kirino wrote:

LeicaBOSS wrote:

You do realize that it's almost certain that they didn't actually put the lens on a NEX-7. Those scores are just "predicted" based on the sensor data and the lens data from whatever camera they did the actual tests on.

You really cannot use DxO scores like they are reliable and repeatable.

steven_k

Not really "replace" but it's close enough that many people can pass on the FE 35mm. Bokeh not as good. Corners not as good. Not as compact. BUT... at 35mm the 24-70mm is really solid and without those odd concentric color rings that the FE 35mm has.

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From time to time, I point my camera at the right things. This is generally when I forget everything I've learned.

LOL. How do you generate those field maps without putting the lens on to the NEX 7. If what you say is true, can you explain why lens are testing better on the A3000 20 megapixel sensor?

First, nobody but the engineers at DxO can actually explain the results of their tests - because the granular details of their data and computational approach are almost completely obscured.

As to the first question - given that their field maps are computed based on various data points (it's not like it's an actual image of an image field) - it's not unreasonable to expect that if they test a lens on one known sensor, and have sensor data for other cameras, that the results can be extrapolated to other sensors without bench testing. I cannot say for sure this is what they do...

But take this thought exercise:

1. When a new camera body is tested, results on that body appear for every lens ever tested on that system. Instantly.The 70D review came out, and every lens ever tested for the EF mount appears as "tested" on the 70D

2. DxO notes that they 'borrow' lenses to do their lens analyses.

3. To believe they physically mount each lens to each camera to generate their lens data - we must believe that A) They have every lens ever tested in inventory AND do a bench test on each lens for every camera that comes in  B) They go back and re-borrow every lens ever tested when a new camera comes in AND do a bench test on each lens  or C) They have a mathematical way of interpolating this data based on a limited number of actual lens tests and the archival sensor data

3a. In the case of Canon EF (full frame) - they report data on 109 lenses. They claim to take "thousands" of frames for each lens test. Let's say it takes 2 hours (conservative) to test a lens/camera combo. This means 218 hours of labor goes into lens tests for every Canon camera that is tested. This is 6.2 weeks of labor in France.

3b. If, in fact, they just have all those lenses sitting there - waiting to be tested on each body that comes in... They have $166,558 in Canon EF full-frame mount lenses alone. Just sitting there, waiting to be tested.

3c, The reverse of this is with bodies. This also means, when a new lens comes in, they have every body ever tested for the system sitting there in inventory as well.

Food for thought.

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