A7r 24-70 at 70mm vs EM1 12-40 at 40mm (80mm EFL)

Started 6 months ago | Discussions
GaryW
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Re: Resize the A7/r to 16 MP to see how it compares...
In reply to LTZ470, 6 months ago

LTZ470 wrote:

....

Both photos should be sharp and have decent IQ at 100% regardless of format...

Not format so much as megapixels/resolution.

the corners and sides of the A7r 24-70 do not so you would have to resize down to the 16Mp size and/or crop off the smeared/mushy portions...

If you did this and the photos were comparable, that would be helpful information. It would be incomplete information, but it would still be a useful comparison.

So if I make a crop of the A7r shot with 1280 X 900 and a crop of the EM1 shot 1280 x 900 this will show the difference?

When you say "shot with", do you mean like setting the camera to "small" size? I'm with Henry on this one -- not sure what the camera is doing, and besides, two different cameras aren't going to have the same exact resolution. Might as well, use a full original size and resize in the computer where you know it's a controlled situation.

I'll take a few shots with 24mm f/2 and 100% Crop and then we'll see the difference 100% crop or not...

BUT at 100% crop they should both look sharp and have decent details in my book...period...

I think part of the confusing is comparing two different systems. If you took the example of Nex-6 vs Nex-7 and put the same lens on both, it'd be more clear what could happen. You could have a lens which had really poor corners on the Nex-7, as they could be much softer than the center, but on a 16mp sensor, the same corners might not look as bad, and the softness wouldn't be as noticeable when compared to the center. I think by thinking of two similar-format cameras (Nex-6 and Nex-7 are both APS-C), it might be easier to visualize how simply changing resolution also changes the magnification when viewing at 100%. With more magnification, you need more resolution in the lens, or else the magnification is going to be more revealing of errors.

Gary thanks for the help and comments...

I hope it helps...

Packing up the 24-70 to go back, got it for the 24mm, and it's just not good enough for the price...nice lens though! Size is not too bad either...

I'm with Henry here too -- it sounds like the corners are weak at the ends of the zoom, like with a lot of other Sony lenses. If this is not tolerable, then the lens isn't for you. Personally, I look at it as a tradeoff-- if it's not too severe, it won't be noticeable in normal prints. So, just saying that the corners are soft isn't enough for me to disqualify a lens, but it's worth considering whether or not it's worth paying the extra rather than just using the kit lens.

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LTZ470
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Re: Resize the A7/r to 16 MP to see how it compares...
In reply to GaryW, 6 months ago

GaryW wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

....

Both photos should be sharp and have decent IQ at 100% regardless of format...

Not format so much as megapixels/resolution.

the corners and sides of the A7r 24-70 do not so you would have to resize down to the 16Mp size and/or crop off the smeared/mushy portions...

If you did this and the photos were comparable, that would be helpful information. It would be incomplete information, but it would still be a useful comparison.

So if I make a crop of the A7r shot with 1280 X 900 and a crop of the EM1 shot 1280 x 900 this will show the difference?

When you say "shot with", do you mean like setting the camera to "small" size? I'm with Henry on this one -- not sure what the camera is doing, and besides, two different cameras aren't going to have the same exact resolution. Might as well, use a full original size and resize in the computer where you know it's a controlled situation.

I'll take a few shots with 24mm f/2 and 100% Crop and then we'll see the difference 100% crop or not...

BUT at 100% crop they should both look sharp and have decent details in my book...period...

I think part of the confusing is comparing two different systems. If you took the example of Nex-6 vs Nex-7 and put the same lens on both, it'd be more clear what could happen. You could have a lens which had really poor corners on the Nex-7, as they could be much softer than the center, but on a 16mp sensor, the same corners might not look as bad, and the softness wouldn't be as noticeable when compared to the center. I think by thinking of two similar-format cameras (Nex-6 and Nex-7 are both APS-C), it might be easier to visualize how simply changing resolution also changes the magnification when viewing at 100%. With more magnification, you need more resolution in the lens, or else the magnification is going to be more revealing of errors.

Gary thanks for the help and comments...

I hope it helps...

Packing up the 24-70 to go back, got it for the 24mm, and it's just not good enough for the price...nice lens though! Size is not too bad either...

I'm with Henry here too -- it sounds like the corners are weak at the ends of the zoom, like with a lot of other Sony lenses. If this is not tolerable, then the lens isn't for you. Personally, I look at it as a tradeoff-- if it's not too severe, it won't be noticeable in normal prints. So, just saying that the corners are soft isn't enough for me to disqualify a lens, but it's worth considering whether or not it's worth paying the extra rather than just using the kit lens.

For $1200, just not worth it and not be decent at 24mm...that was really what I was hoping for, unrealistic expectations maybe, but was hopeful never the less...

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Gary W.

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CraigArnold
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Last attempt...
In reply to LTZ470, 6 months ago

Before you send the lens back...

You have for some reason grasped hold of the wrong end of the stick and are clinging to it with a vicelike grip and gritted teeth. So I will make one final attempt to persuade you to let go.

Take the two images at 24mm equivalent, take them to a good print bureau. Get prints made at 30" on the short side:

The Olympus image will give you a 30x40 print and the Sony a 30x45.

Get a selection of people to compare the two prints. What Eric has demonstrated (and you either cannot or refuse to understand) is that the Sony print will be better in the corners and much better over the central 80% of the frame. If you crop off 2.5 inches on the left and right of the Sony print the difference will be even bigger and the Sony look even better by comparison.

Now it may be that you don't care about the final output, and what you really take photos for is to view them at 100% on screen. In which case you will generally be served best by smaller sensors and high quality lenses. In fact the Olympus with pro lenses will almost certainly reign supreme in that scenario. And if that's what your photography is about then more power to you. 

But if you care about the final print then the Sony + 24-70 will outperform the Olympus + 12-40. Everywhere, even in the corners.

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LTZ470
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Re: Last attempt...
In reply to CraigArnold, 6 months ago

CraigArnold wrote:

Before you send the lens back...

You have for some reason grasped hold of the wrong end of the stick and are clinging to it with a vicelike grip and gritted teeth. So I will make one final attempt to persuade you to let go.

Take the two images at 24mm equivalent, take them to a good print bureau. Get prints made at 30" on the short side:

The Olympus image will give you a 30x40 print and the Sony a 30x45.

Get a selection of people to compare the two prints. What Eric has demonstrated (and you either cannot or refuse to understand) is that the Sony print will be better in the corners and much better over the central 80% of the frame. If you crop off 2.5 inches on the left and right of the Sony print the difference will be even bigger and the Sony look even better by comparison.

Now it may be that you don't care about the final output, and what you really take photos for is to view them at 100% on screen. In which case you will generally be served best by smaller sensors and high quality lenses. In fact the Olympus with pro lenses will almost certainly reign supreme in that scenario. And if that's what your photography is about then more power to you.

But if you care about the final print then the Sony + 24-70 will outperform the Olympus + 12-40. Everywhere, even in the corners.

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Already sent it back, just not for me, I wouldn't use it, I don't use the other E-Mount Lens we own either, my wife likes them so I keep them for her...

Only one I use now is the FE 55mm...

I kept the LA-EA4 Adapter and 24mm f/2 Zeiss A-Mount, it will do well for Landscape shots on the A7r, I was trying to get away from the LA-EA4, but will have to hold on to it until Sony FE UW prime or zoom is out...

Thanks for the honest commentary, appreciate it, good idea you had...

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dbm305
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Re: Last attempt...
In reply to CraigArnold, 6 months ago

Now it may be that you don't care about the final output, and what you really take photos for is to view them at 100% on screen. In which case you will generally be served best by smaller sensors and high quality lenses. In fact the Olympus with pro lenses will almost certainly reign supreme in that scenario. And if that's what your photography is about then more power to you.

But then instead you could just set up your computer to look at the 36MP files at 50% or so when you zoom in, and they will have similar "zoom" fas 100% from a smaller format, and look better.....

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LTZ470
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Re: Last attempt...
In reply to dbm305, 6 months ago

dbm305 wrote:

Now it may be that you don't care about the final output, and what you really take photos for is to view them at 100% on screen. In which case you will generally be served best by smaller sensors and high quality lenses. In fact the Olympus with pro lenses will almost certainly reign supreme in that scenario. And if that's what your photography is about then more power to you.

But then instead you could just set up your computer to look at the 36MP files at 50% or so when you zoom in, and they will have similar "zoom" fas 100% from a smaller format, and look better.....

Smearing and mushiness is just too much on the left side and bottom for landscapes, if I were going to shoot at 28mm it would be great, but I am looking for 24mm sharp corner to corner at minimum with AF...

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rhlpetrus
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12mm x 24mm?
In reply to LTZ470, 6 months ago

I'd be more interested in a comparsion at the low ends, which are more useful for landscapes (which require corner to corner detail). 70mm and 40mm would be more for portraits or other, with bokeh helping hide corner softness.

How is the Oly in that regard? I'm interested in getting a m43 system for lighter shooting (currently my main system is APS-C dslr and light kit is a Nikon 1 V1).

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LTZ470
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Re: 12mm x 24mm?
In reply to rhlpetrus, 6 months ago

rhlpetrus wrote:

I'd be more interested in a comparsion at the low ends, which are more useful for landscapes (which require corner to corner detail). 70mm and 40mm would be more for portraits or other, with bokeh helping hide corner softness.

How is the Oly in that regard? I'm interested in getting a m43 system for lighter shooting (currently my main system is APS-C dslr and light kit is a Nikon 1 V1).

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http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3633467

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npires
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Re: Some crops with Olympus resized to 36 MP
In reply to LTZ470, 6 months ago

LTZ470 wrote:

Talk is cheap and so is up sizing 16Mp vs 36Mp...lol...

Lets be honest and just use 100% Crops folks of both photos...that would be fair would it not?

No it's not. Because you're not comparing images at a 1:1 ratio between the two sets. You either down sample the larger image to the same size as the smaller image or you up scale the smaller image to the larger size and then compare.

It's better to resize the smaller image because if you downsize the larger image depending on the method used for the resize you can introduce artifacts/eg moire where as for an upscale this is less likely to happen.

The way the original crops are shown in the OP give a skewed bias towards the smaller sensor. IMO they also look over sharpened.

I also own neither camera so am not being biased to one or other other. Simply I work with graphics for a living and this is how we do our job!

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LTZ470
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Re: Some crops with Olympus resized to 36 MP
In reply to npires, 6 months ago

npires wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

Talk is cheap and so is up sizing 16Mp vs 36Mp...lol...

Lets be honest and just use 100% Crops folks of both photos...that would be fair would it not?

No it's not. Because you're not comparing images at a 1:1 ratio between the two sets. You either down sample the larger image to the same size as the smaller image or you up scale the smaller image to the larger size and then compare.

It's better to resize the smaller image because if you downsize the larger image depending on the method used for the resize you can introduce artifacts/eg moire where as for an upscale this is less likely to happen.

The way the original crops are shown in the OP give a skewed bias towards the smaller sensor. IMO they also look over sharpened.

I also own neither camera so am not being biased to one or other other. Simply I work with graphics for a living and this is how we do our job!

Let's just say if the A7r with 24-70 is no better than this I don't need it at all...it's not for me...if I was buying it for a center only lens it would be perfect but the bottom and left hand side are distorted, no matter how much you resize it...

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npires
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Re: Some crops with Olympus resized to 36 MP
In reply to LTZ470, 6 months ago

LTZ470 wrote:

Let's just say if the A7r with 24-70 is no better than this I don't need it at all...it's not for me...if I was buying it for a center only lens it would be perfect but the bottom and left hand side are distorted, no matter how much you resize it...

Was not the amount of detail being resolved your main gripe? It's been shown now that the A7R obviously has the edge when both are at an equal size. However if distortion is the issue is there not a profile to correct this? If not then fair enough I would stay away from it and look for another lens.

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LTZ470
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Re: Some crops with Olympus resized to 36 MP
In reply to npires, 6 months ago

npires wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

Let's just say if the A7r with 24-70 is no better than this I don't need it at all...it's not for me...if I was buying it for a center only lens it would be perfect but the bottom and left hand side are distorted, no matter how much you resize it...

Was not the amount of detail being resolved your main gripe? It's been shown now that the A7R obviously has the edge when both are at an equal size. However if distortion is the issue is there not a profile to correct this? If not then fair enough I would stay away from it and look for another lens.

Yes, I kept the 24mm f/2 and LA-EA4 Adapter, sent the 24-70 back...

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Laszlo13
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Re: Some crops with Olympus resized to 36 MP
In reply to spacemn, 6 months ago

spacemn wrote:

viking79 wrote:

I hope you don't mind me using heavy crops of your photos, I deleted them off computer when done. My example is much better shown than said...

Here is why I like larger sensor. It only looks bad at the pixel level (besides the top edge, I think your lens is faulty) because the A7R has so many more pixels. If you resize the Olympus to be fair. Simply import into Lightroom and export Olympus and Sony at Long Edge of 7360 (this makes the olympus slightly more than 36 MP since it is 4x3 ratio, but have to pick to convert to 4x6 or 3x4 crop.

The A7R is on the left in all these... Tell me, which do you think is resolving more detail?

Look at board grain in background

Upper right isn't too bad on your 24-70

Look at grass detail

Thank you for inputting some sanity into this thread, with a very competent post. One of the best comparison posts I have ever seen.

Remarkable how the A7R+24-70mm combo outclasses (!!) the Oly E-M1+12-40mm. I would like to see the A7 or maybe A6000 in this mix as well ...no contest whatsoever .

Thank you for thread starter to provide the picture material, even though his intention was to show how good m43 are in comparison

I really appreciated the comparison as well.  I agree with the upsizing (or alternative downsizing) procedure.  After all, I wanted to understand how the A7R with 24-70 would compare to E-M1 12-40 for an equivalent sized print.  I, however, don't find the difference quite as remarkable.  I expected a bigger advantage to the FF sensor / lens.  After all, there's a lot of advantage to the m4/3 gear (size especially lens size, focusing speed, IBIS, etc.).  Still, if one is after the best IQ - then obviously Sony wins out (between these 2 anyway).

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LTZ470
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Re: Some crops with Olympus resized to 36 MP
In reply to Laszlo13, 6 months ago

Laszlo13 wrote:

spacemn wrote:

viking79 wrote:

I hope you don't mind me using heavy crops of your photos, I deleted them off computer when done. My example is much better shown than said...

Here is why I like larger sensor. It only looks bad at the pixel level (besides the top edge, I think your lens is faulty) because the A7R has so many more pixels. If you resize the Olympus to be fair. Simply import into Lightroom and export Olympus and Sony at Long Edge of 7360 (this makes the olympus slightly more than 36 MP since it is 4x3 ratio, but have to pick to convert to 4x6 or 3x4 crop.

The A7R is on the left in all these... Tell me, which do you think is resolving more detail?

Look at board grain in background

Upper right isn't too bad on your 24-70

Look at grass detail

Thank you for inputting some sanity into this thread, with a very competent post. One of the best comparison posts I have ever seen.

Remarkable how the A7R+24-70mm combo outclasses (!!) the Oly E-M1+12-40mm. I would like to see the A7 or maybe A6000 in this mix as well ...no contest whatsoever .

Thank you for thread starter to provide the picture material, even though his intention was to show how good m43 are in comparison

See below...lol...folks ain't as dumb as others look...

I really appreciated the comparison as well. I agree with the upsizing (or alternative downsizing) procedure. After all, I wanted to understand how the A7R with 24-70 would compare to E-M1 12-40 for an equivalent sized print. I, however, don't find the difference quite as remarkable. I expected a bigger advantage to the FF sensor / lens. After all, there's a lot of advantage to the m4/3 gear (size especially lens size, focusing speed, IBIS, etc.). Still, if one is after the best IQ - then obviously Sony wins out (between these 2 anyway).

+1 really amazing how close the 1/4 size sensor gets to the FF sensor, then yesterday the A7r and FE 55 would not even AF inside a well lit room indoors and the EM1 w/ 42.5 f/1.2 worked like a pro camera...unbelievable...BUT I should have turned on Face Detection and maybe Eye Start AF, have never had to use it before but the A7R may be a first due to lacking AF ability...Sad due to the stellar FE 55 would have gotten some great shots I am sure...not it's fault though, the camera just couldn't lock AF...

Lots of these folks saying upsizing/downsizing...etc...lol...DPR review utilizes 100% comparison tool...Image Rsources...and many of the web based reviewers...

100% = 100%...I ain't politically correct like the rest of these folks...lol...

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mdavidp
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Re: A7r 24-70 at 70mm vs EM1 12-40 at 40mm (80mm EFL)
In reply to LTZ470, 6 months ago

LTZ470, Good work!

MP

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LTZ470
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Re: Some crops with Olympus resized to 36 MP
In reply to npires, 6 months ago

npires wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

Talk is cheap and so is up sizing 16Mp vs 36Mp...lol...

Lets be honest and just use 100% Crops folks of both photos...that would be fair would it not?

No it's not. Because you're not comparing images at a 1:1 ratio between the two sets. You either down sample the larger image to the same size as the smaller image or you up scale the smaller image to the larger size and then compare.

It's better to resize the smaller image because if you downsize the larger image depending on the method used for the resize you can introduce artifacts/eg moire where as for an upscale this is less likely to happen.

The way the original crops are shown in the OP give a skewed bias towards the smaller sensor. IMO they also look over sharpened.

I also own neither camera so am not being biased to one or other other. Simply I work with graphics for a living and this is how we do our job!

Yep, Oly looks over sharpened at times, but they really rein in the details for my old eyes...

A list of folks who use 100% Comparison Tools:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/studio-compare?utm_campaign=internal-link&utm_source=mainmenu&utm_medium=text&ref=mainmenu#baseDir=%2Freviews_data&cameraDataSubdir=boxshot&indexFileName=boxshotindex.xml&presetsFileName=boxshotpresets.xml&showDescriptions=false&headerTitle=Studio%20scene&headerSubTitle=Standard%20studio%20scene%20comparison&masterCamera=sony_dscrx1&masterSample=dsc00751&slotsCount=4&slot0Camera=sony_dscrx1&slot0Sample=dsc00751&slot0DisableCameraSelection=true&slot0DisableSampleSelection=true&slot0LinkWithMaster=true&slot1Camera=oly_em5&slot1Sample=p1010003&slot2Camera=sony_nex7&slot2Sample=dsc03021&slot3Camera=nikon_d800e&slot3Sample=dsc_0082&x=0&y=0

http://sonyalphalab.com/2013/12/sony-a7-vs-sony-nex-6-lab-testing-with-kit-lenses/

http://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM

http://www.eoshd.com/content/11892/sony-a7r-review-replace-dslr-micro-four-thirds-camera

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Laszlo13
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Re: Some crops with Olympus resized to 36 MP
In reply to LTZ470, 6 months ago

LTZ470 wrote:

Laszlo13 wrote:

spacemn wrote:

viking79 wrote:

I hope you don't mind me using heavy crops of your photos, I deleted them off computer when done. My example is much better shown than said...

Here is why I like larger sensor. It only looks bad at the pixel level (besides the top edge, I think your lens is faulty) because the A7R has so many more pixels. If you resize the Olympus to be fair. Simply import into Lightroom and export Olympus and Sony at Long Edge of 7360 (this makes the olympus slightly more than 36 MP since it is 4x3 ratio, but have to pick to convert to 4x6 or 3x4 crop.

The A7R is on the left in all these... Tell me, which do you think is resolving more detail?

Look at board grain in background

Upper right isn't too bad on your 24-70

Look at grass detail

Thank you for inputting some sanity into this thread, with a very competent post. One of the best comparison posts I have ever seen.

Remarkable how the A7R+24-70mm combo outclasses (!!) the Oly E-M1+12-40mm. I would like to see the A7 or maybe A6000 in this mix as well ...no contest whatsoever .

Thank you for thread starter to provide the picture material, even though his intention was to show how good m43 are in comparison

See below...lol...folks ain't as dumb as others look...

I really appreciated the comparison as well. I agree with the upsizing (or alternative downsizing) procedure. After all, I wanted to understand how the A7R with 24-70 would compare to E-M1 12-40 for an equivalent sized print. I, however, don't find the difference quite as remarkable. I expected a bigger advantage to the FF sensor / lens. After all, there's a lot of advantage to the m4/3 gear (size especially lens size, focusing speed, IBIS, etc.). Still, if one is after the best IQ - then obviously Sony wins out (between these 2 anyway).

+1 really amazing how close the 1/4 size sensor gets to the FF sensor, then yesterday the A7r and FE 55 would not even AF inside a well lit room indoors and the EM1 w/ 42.5 f/1.2 worked like a pro camera...unbelievable...BUT I should have turned on Face Detection and maybe Eye Start AF, have never had to use it before but the A7R may be a first due to lacking AF ability...Sad due to the stellar FE 55 would have gotten some great shots I am sure...not it's fault though, the camera just couldn't lock AF...

Lots of these folks saying upsizing/downsizing...etc...lol...DPR review utilizes 100% comparison tool...Image Rsources...and many of the web based reviewers...

100% = 100%...I ain't politically correct like the rest of these folks...lol...

I understand your comment about 100% comparison- and it's certainly the most fair way of comparing: hence why all the review sites do it.  No mucking about the image - just plain comparison.  However, that doesn't mean there isn't merit in comparing like sized image size, as I mentioned.  I don't think it's worth arguing about - both are useful input into camera selection.

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Mr Ichiro Kitao, I support the call to upgrade the FZ50.
I will not only buy one but two no questions asked...

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LTZ470
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Re: Some crops with Olympus resized to 36 MP
In reply to Laszlo13, 6 months ago

Laszlo13 wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

Laszlo13 wrote:

spacemn wrote:

viking79 wrote:

I hope you don't mind me using heavy crops of your photos, I deleted them off computer when done. My example is much better shown than said...

Here is why I like larger sensor. It only looks bad at the pixel level (besides the top edge, I think your lens is faulty) because the A7R has so many more pixels. If you resize the Olympus to be fair. Simply import into Lightroom and export Olympus and Sony at Long Edge of 7360 (this makes the olympus slightly more than 36 MP since it is 4x3 ratio, but have to pick to convert to 4x6 or 3x4 crop.

The A7R is on the left in all these... Tell me, which do you think is resolving more detail?

Look at board grain in background

Upper right isn't too bad on your 24-70

Look at grass detail

Thank you for inputting some sanity into this thread, with a very competent post. One of the best comparison posts I have ever seen.

Remarkable how the A7R+24-70mm combo outclasses (!!) the Oly E-M1+12-40mm. I would like to see the A7 or maybe A6000 in this mix as well ...no contest whatsoever .

Thank you for thread starter to provide the picture material, even though his intention was to show how good m43 are in comparison

See below...lol...folks ain't as dumb as others look...

I really appreciated the comparison as well. I agree with the upsizing (or alternative downsizing) procedure. After all, I wanted to understand how the A7R with 24-70 would compare to E-M1 12-40 for an equivalent sized print. I, however, don't find the difference quite as remarkable. I expected a bigger advantage to the FF sensor / lens. After all, there's a lot of advantage to the m4/3 gear (size especially lens size, focusing speed, IBIS, etc.). Still, if one is after the best IQ - then obviously Sony wins out (between these 2 anyway).

+1 really amazing how close the 1/4 size sensor gets to the FF sensor, then yesterday the A7r and FE 55 would not even AF inside a well lit room indoors and the EM1 w/ 42.5 f/1.2 worked like a pro camera...unbelievable...BUT I should have turned on Face Detection and maybe Eye Start AF, have never had to use it before but the A7R may be a first due to lacking AF ability...Sad due to the stellar FE 55 would have gotten some great shots I am sure...not it's fault though, the camera just couldn't lock AF...

Lots of these folks saying upsizing/downsizing...etc...lol...DPR review utilizes 100% comparison tool...Image Rsources...and many of the web based reviewers...

100% = 100%...I ain't politically correct like the rest of these folks...lol...

I understand your comment about 100% comparison- and it's certainly the most fair way of comparing: hence why all the review sites do it. No mucking about the image - just plain comparison. However, that doesn't mean there isn't merit in comparing like sized image size, as I mentioned. I don't think it's worth arguing about - both are useful input into camera selection.

Thanks Laszio, agreed 100%...

-- hide signature --

--Really there is a God...and He loves you..
FlickR Photostream:
www.flickr.com/photos/46756347@N08/
Mr Ichiro Kitao, I support the call to upgrade the FZ50.
I will not only buy one but two no questions asked...

-- hide signature --

--Really there is a God...and He loves you..
FlickR Photostream:
www.flickr.com/photos/46756347@N08/
Mr Ichiro Kitao, I support the call to upgrade the FZ50.
I will not only buy one but two no questions asked...

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