Interesting article posted by Kirk Tuck...All the cameras are better than you are

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Pixnat2
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OT. Same trend in Europe
In reply to Marty4650, 6 months ago

Marty4650 wrote:

We have enough of them for economic success. We just don't have enough of them so ordinary people can know very much about the world around them. We let people vote who have no idea what the issues are, and who cannot find the USA on a map. They vote according to sound bites they hear in political ads, or for whoever some celebrity endorses.

The same is happening in Europe. We have a greater diversity of political parties, but people tend to vote for populists parties, which tend to summarize complex issues into simple slogans. That's a big concern.

We have an entire generation that are experts at playing X-Boxes and using smart phones, but who have no idea who William Shakespeare was. Many don't even know who George Washington was. They might think he had something to do with a bridge.

Again, this trend is similar in Europe. Most young people have no interest outside smartphones and co, and have no idea about History, Culture or Litterature.

But in a World where the interest of a minority (gays) is becoming one of the biggest current issue, it's not too surprising.

Maybe uneducated masses are easier to govern and manipulate? The risk of this has a name : Decadence. And all who have a bit of historical knowledge know this has already happended in many civilizations.

The parallels between Roman civilization and modern civilization is striking, if you do the comparison exercise.The only difference is that the decline is globalized today.

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Frederic
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PerL
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Somewhat narrow minded.
In reply to DaveLemi, 6 months ago

DaveLemi wrote:

This is well thought out and delves into what is sufficient-

http://ripecamera.blogspot.com/2014/03/all-cameras-are-better-than-you-are.html

Kirk's site-

http://visualsciencelab.blogspot.com/2014/03/important-announcement-from-ceo-of.html

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Some of my pics can be found here-
www.flickr.com/photos/davelemi

Kirk writes very well and I often read him, but:

There are situations where you can't control the light but still has to come home with good images. That is why PJs wants the best low light performance there is - it has nothing to do with being lazy. I don't think the best APS-C and m43 cameras have hit the spot that they can handle everything you throw at them in this regard.

My other objection is about choice and esthetics. If anyone wants to carry a larger camera with a little better DOF control instead of a smaller camera with a little less DOF control, why the hint that he/she is "uneducated"?

Let people have fun with photography anyway they want without sarcasms.

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Corkcampbell
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You got it! Thanks. It's really sad. Good comment on George Washington.
In reply to Marty4650, 6 months ago

The only thing I can add is that the absence of gays and blacks can be understood in the light of the fact that the whole gender thing is messed up here (hence, the quiz) and blacks, and other non-Korean nationalities are just not present. These people just don't get out, and they suffer for it; I can't prove it, but I feel a real lack of interest in the outside world. In fact, there was an article in the WSJ two days ago about how Korean tolerance for inter-racial marriages has actually gone down. Inter-racial means marrying just about anyone not born here; they especially don't like Chinese. The same feeling is true in the north (DPRK), where "the perfect race" lives.

There is a big difference between this situation and that in the major Chinese cities, where people are much more tolerant and interested in the world, despite the government controlling the internet, news, etc. At least they know things aren't right and that there are alternatives.

Lastly, I don't want to seem too negative about Korea. I live in an area where there are no foreigners. It took some months, but now people have warmed up to me (and my cocker spaniel) and have become helpful and friendly. But, that's an exception, probably due to the fact that everyone has realized I'm basically a harmless buffoon and the dog a canine equivalent.

Speaking of George Washington, last night I started a book on Roger's Rangers, and got into the mood by watching the 1939 Spencer Tracy classic "Northwest Passage." Why am I living in Seoul and studying the French and Indian War (Seven Years War for you purists)? Who knows...but life should be fun...

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Jere Landis
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Re: This is a gear site, what do you expect people to discuss?
In reply to amalric, 6 months ago

Atta boy Amalric tell it like it is.

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PerL
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Re: OT. Same trend in Europe
In reply to Pixnat2, 6 months ago

Pixnat2 wrote:

Marty4650 wrote:

We have enough of them for economic success. We just don't have enough of them so ordinary people can know very much about the world around them. We let people vote who have no idea what the issues are, and who cannot find the USA on a map. They vote according to sound bites they hear in political ads, or for whoever some celebrity endorses.

The same is happening in Europe. We have a greater diversity of political parties, but people tend to vote for populists parties, which tend to summarize complex issues into simple slogans. That's a big concern.

Populist parties is a sign of social tensions. When the average person don't feel that society is fair, he listens to extremists.

We have an entire generation that are experts at playing X-Boxes and using smart phones, but who have no idea who William Shakespeare was. Many don't even know who George Washington was. They might think he had something to do with a bridge.

Again, this trend is similar in Europe. Most young people have no interest outside smartphones and co, and have no idea about History, Culture or Litterature.

But in a World where the interest of a minority (gays) is becoming one of the biggest current issue, it's not too surprising.

Maybe uneducated masses are easier to govern and manipulate? The risk of this has a name : Decadence. And all who have a bit of historical knowledge know this has already happended in many civilizations.

The parallels between Roman civilization and modern civilization is striking, if you do the comparison exercise.The only difference is that the decline is globalized today.

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Cheers,
Frederic
http://azurphoto.com/

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Guy Parsons
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Nah, let's not.
In reply to Jacques Cornell, 6 months ago

Jacques Cornell wrote:

You're dragging the thread way off-topic.

It's just that the off-topic stuff is 1,000 times more interesting than the on-topic stuff.

Regards.... Guy

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Pixnat2
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Re: OT. Same trend in Europe
In reply to PerL, 6 months ago

PerL wrote:

Pixnat2 wrote:

Marty4650 wrote:

We have enough of them for economic success. We just don't have enough of them so ordinary people can know very much about the world around them. We let people vote who have no idea what the issues are, and who cannot find the USA on a map. They vote according to sound bites they hear in political ads, or for whoever some celebrity endorses.

The same is happening in Europe. We have a greater diversity of political parties, but people tend to vote for populists parties, which tend to summarize complex issues into simple slogans. That's a big concern.

Populist parties is a sign of social tensions. When the average person don't feel that society is fair, he listens to extremists.

Absolutely. This is what happen now in many european countries (including Switzerland). But with a minumum of education and historical knowledge, people's wouldn't believe their propaganda.

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Frederic
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MichaelKJ
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Re: I think we all know it has nothing to do with education.
In reply to Guy Parsons, 6 months ago

Guy Parsons wrote:

Culture makes the difference, even though Japan ranks highest in the world in education, it is just coincidence that they also buy many times more Pens than OM-D as one size example. Japan likes small and functional.

Camera sales http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/?s=BCN

The E-M5 outsold the E-P3 in Japan in 2013. It is clearly specious to look at the higher sales of the much lower priced E-PL and E-PM cameras and conclude that the Japanese prefer the PEN form factor to that of the OM-D.

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hdkhang
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Re: His attitude sucks.....
In reply to Kirk Tuck, 6 months ago

Kirk Tuck wrote:

facts is facts mate.

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Austin based advertising and portrait photographer, and author of the book series, Minimalist Lighting, and the books: Commercial Photographers Handbook, Photographic Lighting Equipment, and, LED Lighting for Digital Photographers. www.kirktuck.com

Correlation-causation fallacy, maybe you should read up on it.

A reasonable person would understand that education as measured is a one size fits all affair. It has it's uses, just as DxO is useful for comparing performance of sensors under a predefined set of criteria - it is not however, the entire story.

How about we do the same for car choices? Ignore the other factors surrounding why people would choose a particular vehicle (or if they even bother with a personal vehicle at all) like the local weather conditions, quality of roads, traffic, family size, budget, government taxes, likely uses for the vehicle (e.g. sports, camping, shopping). Instead focus purely on fuel consumption - then proceed to label those people not driving a hybrid as being uneducated. Can even use the title: all cars are faster than you are.

Not everyone cares as much about photography as you do, just as you may not care as much about their interests as they do. That you would attribute their decision to purchase what is easily obtainable, reasonably priced and heavily marketed to a lack of education is insulting. They very likely do not lose sleep over their camera purchasing decisions (unlike many here on this forum), it's just a luxury item after all.

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Ednaz
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hate the attitude, agree with the conclusions
In reply to DaveLemi, 6 months ago

I paid for my car racing habit for 12 years by building out cars, winning a few races, then selling the cars to people who thought, if I just had that car, I could turn his lap times.  They never could match my lap times.  They thought hardware was the key to success.  I was living breathing walking proof that skills development was more valuable than hardware - I could outrun a lot of purpose built road race cars in a mid-size sedan from a rental agency.  I didn't have talent, I had skill developed from running many times as many practice laps as anyone else.  I always told buyers that they should invest in skills more than hardware, but until they experienced the gap themselves, most didn't believe me.

I think the same thing is true in photography.  There are dozens of point and shoots that are more capable, with more dynamic range, better optics, and overall better raw files produced, than the D100 and D1X that I used to use and love a very long time ago.  Once you've got image stabilization, raw file production, bracketing options, and some degree of focal lengths, the best investment for most photographers would be investments in knowledge and skills and not hardware.

That said, there are a lot of people for whom photographic hardware is as much their hobby and interest as photography itself.  I completely understand that.  There's more than one way to enjoy the taking and making of pictures.

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KTClown
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Re: His attitude sucks.....Educational Standing
In reply to Guy Parsons, 6 months ago

Guy Parsons wrote:

intruder61 wrote:

lol....but you still agree with him.

Yes, Australia has poor education standards and falling fast (despite the recently deposed Labour (left leaning) government spending billions on useless programs to "improve" education). USA is even lower in ranking but not sure which way it's going.

But all that has bugger-all to do with camera choices. I never went to college or university yet I bought M4/3, Pen style no less.

Regards....... Guy

Best Education in our World

1. Finland

2. South Korea

13. Australia

17. USA

Yes, here in America our kids are dumber than a box of rocks!

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MichaelKJ
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Re: OT. Same trend in Europe
In reply to Pixnat2, 6 months ago

Pixnat2 wrote:

Marty4650 wrote:

We have enough of them for economic success. We just don't have enough of them so ordinary people can know very much about the world around them. We let people vote who have no idea what the issues are, and who cannot find the USA on a map. They vote according to sound bites they hear in political ads, or for whoever some celebrity endorses.

The same is happening in Europe. We have a greater diversity of political parties, but people tend to vote for populists parties, which tend to summarize complex issues into simple slogans. That's a big concern.

We have an entire generation that are experts at playing X-Boxes and using smart phones, but who have no idea who William Shakespeare was. Many don't even know who George Washington was. They might think he had something to do with a bridge.

Again, this trend is similar in Europe. Most young people have no interest outside smartphones and co, and have no idea about History, Culture or Litterature.

But in a World where the interest of a minority (gays) is becoming one of the biggest current issue, it's not too surprising.

What was the point you were trying to make with your comment about gays?

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amalric
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Re: This is a gear site, what do you expect people to discuss?
In reply to Jere Landis, 6 months ago

Jere Landis wrote:

Atta boy Amalric tell it like it is.

Well, I always hope this is a progressive forum, not a mere shopping mall.

Am.

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KTClown
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Re: Why It’s Never Mattered That America’s Schools ‘Lag’ Behind Other Countries
In reply to yanisha, 6 months ago

yanisha wrote:

Guy Parsons wrote:

Quote (re M4/3) " And while the adaptation rate in the U.S. (lower education standards than most of the rest of the world) has been slow many parts of the world are snapping them up and eroding market share of the conventional mirrored digital cameras."

I'm an Aussie (most intelligent species in the world!) and even I'm offended by his attitude.

Guy, I am Canadian and I am also offended by his attitude. He has a right to his opinion and it does seem to be fashionable in the U.S. these days for those who want to appear hip to make deprecating comments about their country. This article gives a different take on it though:

http://techcrunch.com/2013/12/03/why-its-never-mattered-that-americas-schools-lag-behind-other-countries-2013-edition/

The United States has never ranked at the top of international education tests, since we began comparing countries in 1964, yet has been the dominant economic and innovative force in the world the entire time. Despite this fact, a popular annual education report has once again stoked fears of America's impending economic mediocrity with fresh stats on how far the U.S. “lags” behind the world in college attainment, pre-school enrollment, and high school graduation.

The reason for the apparent disconnect is because schools don't prepare students for the real world, so broad educational attainment will have a weak correlation with economic power. Research has consistently shown that on nearly every measure of education (instructional hours, class-size, enrollment, college preparation), what students learn in school does not translate into later life success. The United States has an abundance of the factors that likely do matter: access to the best immigrants, economic opportunity, and the best research facilities.

In America it's all about sports. The 3R's are not really taught. The web site I looked at showed USA 17th, Canada was 10th. Australia is 13th. But my feeling, America is fading fast do to our own government. The Department of Education is a joke and should be done away with, and let each state handle the education of our students.

Gary

Pueblo, CO

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WT21
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Why edu rankings may not be useful
In reply to yanisha, 6 months ago

Eric Mazur is a leading thinker on education today. He's, by trade, a physics prof at Harvard. What he is talking about is hard, but it's powerful stuff. In short -- teaching to the test is not useful. Teaching to the test, though, is what boosts your country in these international rankings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBzn9RAJG6Q

Oh, and by the way, white collar work is under stress from automation: http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/dc895d54-a2bf-11e3-9685-00144feab7de.html#axzz2v0D2AoMv

Teach to the test, go up in rankings, get your people nice, corporate cubicle jobs, and watch your citizens be put out of work.

Instead, teach people how to think and innovate. Those are harder to measure on standardized testing.

yanisha wrote:

Guy Parsons wrote:

Quote (re M4/3) " And while the adaptation rate in the U.S. (lower education standards than most of the rest of the world) has been slow many parts of the world are snapping them up and eroding market share of the conventional mirrored digital cameras."

I'm an Aussie (most intelligent species in the world!) and even I'm offended by his attitude.

Guy, I am Canadian and I am also offended by his attitude. He has a right to his opinion and it does seem to be fashionable in the U.S. these days for those who want to appear hip to make deprecating comments about their country. This article gives a different take on it though:

http://techcrunch.com/2013/12/03/why-its-never-mattered-that-americas-schools-lag-behind-other-countries-2013-edition/

The United States has never ranked at the top of international education tests, since we began comparing countries in 1964, yet has been the dominant economic and innovative force in the world the entire time. Despite this fact, a popular annual education report has once again stoked fears of America's impending economic mediocrity with fresh stats on how far the U.S. “lags” behind the world in college attainment, pre-school enrollment, and high school graduation.

The reason for the apparent disconnect is because schools don't prepare students for the real world, so broad educational attainment will have a weak correlation with economic power. Research has consistently shown that on nearly every measure of education (instructional hours, class-size, enrollment, college preparation), what students learn in school does not translate into later life success. The United States has an abundance of the factors that likely do matter: access to the best immigrants, economic opportunity, and the best research facilities.

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Guy Parsons
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Re: His attitude sucks.....Educational Standing
In reply to KTClown, 6 months ago

KTClown wrote:

Best Education in our World

1. Finland

2. South Korea

13. Australia

17. USA

Yes, here in America our kids are dumber than a box of rocks!

There's lists and there's lists, one I looked at had Japan top of the tree. But sadly also had Oz and USA down in the dumbasboxofrocks department.

The alarming thing is that those dumbasboxofrocks kids grow up to become your politicians who decide your future.

Regards..... Guy

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KTClown
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Re: His attitude sucks.....
In reply to Guy Parsons, 6 months ago

Guy Parsons wrote:

DaveLemi wrote:

This is well thought out and delves into what is sufficient-

http://ripecamera.blogspot.com/2014/03/all-cameras-are-better-than-you-are.html

Kirk's site-

http://visualsciencelab.blogspot.com/2014/03/important-announcement-from-ceo-of.html

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Some of my pics can be found here-
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Quote (re M4/3) " And while the adaptation rate in the U.S. (lower education standards than most of the rest of the world) has been slow many parts of the world are snapping them up and eroding market share of the conventional mirrored digital cameras."

I'm an Aussie (most intelligent species in the world!) and even I'm offended by his attitude.

Regards.... Guy

Most intelligent species in the world? At least smarter than the USA. We have a nation of dummies and not getting any better.

Gary

Pueblo, CO

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KTClown
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Re: In other words. . .
In reply to Bob Tullis, 6 months ago

Bob Tullis wrote:

Ask NOT what your camera can do for you. Rather ask what YOU can do with your camera!

No?

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...Bob, NYC
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"Well, sometimes the magic works. . . Sometimes, it doesn't." - Chief Dan George, Little Big Man
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Yes, a good one I'll give you a +1.

Gary

Pueblo, CO

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WT21
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Re: His attitude sucks.....
In reply to Kirk Tuck, 6 months ago

"The US lags behind in edu, and therefore buys DSLRs?" What, exactly, are the "facts" here?

There is a lot of debate behind the usefulness of media-attention-grabbing headlines around standardized testing. I posted a video above on the more pragmatic aspects of teaching and the hierarchy of learning above in another response. It would be easy to Google for more, though it could take years of reading to come to an understanding of the state of the research.

To put it simply, it's not that simple.

Kirk Tuck wrote:

facts is facts mate.

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Austin based advertising and portrait photographer, and author of the book series, Minimalist Lighting, and the books: Commercial Photographers Handbook, Photographic Lighting Equipment, and, LED Lighting for Digital Photographers. www.kirktuck.com

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MichaelKJ
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Re: Why has mirrorless been slow to catch on...
In reply to TrapperJohn, 6 months ago

TrapperJohn wrote:

The 'intelligence' remark is an offbeat reference there, but you have to take it in context of the adjacent passages. I believe this is known as 'self depreciating humor'.

As for why µ43 and mirrorless in general have been slow to catch on in some areas... I see this as a matter of inertia and available products. Look where it has sold well, versus where it has been slow. What else is different about those markets?

Mirrorless is selling very well in the emerging Asian nations, where there hasn't been a thriving photography market in the past, and Japan, where they're quick to adopt new consumer tech, almost to a point of obsession.

Mirrorless is clearly much popular in the Eastern Asian countries, but market share in Japan has stalled at about 40% for the past two years. In fact, market share decreased from 44.4% in 2012 to 38.0% in 2013.  Any thoughts?

It isn't selling well in the EU and US, two markets where photography as a hobby or pastime has been active for a very long time. Unlike the Asian nations, there is an existing base of owners who have a substantial investment in current gear. There is a thriving market in used gear. And, perhaps, some entrenched thinking - people like to stay with what worked well in the past. In these cases, the existing market, existing line of available gear and glass, and existing way of thinking are factors not found in the emerging Asian economies.

I assume you are excluding Japan when you say Asian countries don't have a large existing base of owners with a substantial investment current gear.

Your reasoning doesn't explain why mirrorless shipments to the Americas were 45.3% lower in 2013 than in 2012, while DSLR shipments were only down 10.9%.  Why the much larger drop in popularity?

January CIPA data does suggest things might be improving.  Shipments to the Americas were up 50.8% over the previous Jan and the value of shipments was up 144%.  This could just be a one month blip, but there wasn't a single month in 2013 in which shipments were higher than same month in 2012.

So it is interesting to note that mirrorless is selling well when it's a clean slate - no huge numbers of DSLR owners with existing gear. Eventually, the existing base will fade as a factor, as volume of production and amortization of development costs (from sales to Asia and Japan) brings mirrorles prices down, while µ43 already whips the market leaders on diversity of body style, and available lens selection is getting better every quarter.

The one thing we agree on is that the future is mirrorless.

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