A7r 24-70 vs Nex-7 16-70 vs EM1 12-40

Started 6 months ago | Discussions
GaryW
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Re: Try comparing like sizes
In reply to Bart Hickman, 6 months ago

Bart Hickman wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

Bart Hickman wrote:...

Here's what I'm talking about. I'm not saying Oly image is "bad" per se--it's just noticeably worse than the NEX-7 image. You can do this comparison anywhere in the frame and the NEX-7 comes out clearly on top....

These are subjective as well, much more detail in the Oly in the grass...and on both sides of the photo the Oly out performs easily...

As I said, and as you can see, I scaled them to the same magnification to enable comparison. In this case I upscaled the Oly because that makes the difference easier to see.

That would be the ideal way to do it -- upscale the lower-resolution one to match the pixel resolution of the highest-resolution in the comparison.  Of course, as someone might point out, a slight softening might occur due to the bicubic interpolation, but you're not really losing information.  If you're doing it the other way (downsizing the higher-resolution photo), you're throwing away detail which introduces a bias.  I would call shenanigans on anyone doing that, at least as the only test; I would allow that it might be interesting as a side detail, but not as the main way to test.

Wow--Amazing how we see it differently. The tree, grass, everything are all mushy on the Oly image (relatively speaking). I can almost count every twig in that NEX shot.

I'll say.  Even on my iPad, the difference is striking, and the Oly version isn't the better of the two.

I think you're being fooled by the processing of the Oly image which is sort of a large radius USM. But, hey, whatever.

When not pixel peeping, the contrast boost or USM or whatever it is does make the image pop nicely.  Myself, I'm not a fan of oversharpening and try to avoid it.  Too much sharpening messes with the low-level detail -- so does NR.  But people continue to look at these things as good, so I dunno..... maybe its just me.  

Bart

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bigley Ling
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EM1 12-40 vs Nex 5r speed booster with 24-105L
In reply to LTZ470, 6 months ago

a very un scientific test I did at home tonight to compare bokeh from m43 vs APS-C speed booster to simulate close to full frame.

Olympus E-M1 with 12-40 f2.8 (DOF 5.6  equivalent)  f2.8 light gathering

Sony NEX5r with speed booster and 24-105 f4L (DOF f4.0 equivalent) f2.8 light gathering

please ignore the while balance, obviously the E-M1 seems to have a cooler incandescent white balance over the NEX 5r

comments welcome

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halbraun
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Re: Try comparing like sizes
In reply to LTZ470, 6 months ago

LTZ470 wrote:

Bart Hickman wrote:

nyoneway wrote:

This comparison is about lens not sensors. If you look at the Oly corner, it's much sharper than the Sony Zeiss.

It's amazing how a smaller image can trick us into thinking it's sharper.
I tried it both ways: 1. upsize the EM1 image so the scale was the same as the NEX-7 image. 2) downsize the NEX image to the same as the EM1 image. In both comparisons, there's no question the NEX-7 image is more detailed and you can get significantly better sharpness out of it. This applies across the frame.

I have to say the Oly image is a bit ratty-looking for a base iso image. The NEX7 image is smooth and still looks smooth after sharpening it similarly to the Oly. Perhaps it's being crippled by poor processing?

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All jpegs, PP lightly...no the 16mp m43 sensor will never quite stay up with the APS-C and FF sensors, but it is surprisingly closer than most folks think or want to admit...just means that it is good enough for many situations, but I have found it is better for nature and close ups...the new Panny 42.5 f/1.2 is sharp wide open...very nice lens in m43 favor with OIS and EM1 with IBIS, the IBIS is actually better than the OIS...

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LTZ470
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Re: EM1 12-40 vs Nex 5r speed booster with 24-105L
In reply to bigley Ling, 6 months ago

bigley Ling wrote:

a very un scientific test I did at home tonight to compare bokeh from m43 vs APS-C speed booster to simulate close to full frame.

Olympus E-M1 with 12-40 f2.8 (DOF 5.6 equivalent) f2.8 light gathering

Sony NEX5r with speed booster and 24-105 f4L (DOF f4.0 equivalent) f2.8 light gathering

please ignore the while balance, obviously the E-M1 seems to have a cooler incandescent white balance over the NEX 5r

comments welcome

Easy to see why the Nex-5 looks blurrier with more bokeh...cause it is already blurry...

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LTZ470
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Re: Try comparing like sizes
In reply to GaryW, 6 months ago

GaryW wrote:

Bart Hickman wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

Bart Hickman wrote:...

Here's what I'm talking about. I'm not saying Oly image is "bad" per se--it's just noticeably worse than the NEX-7 image. You can do this comparison anywhere in the frame and the NEX-7 comes out clearly on top....

These are subjective as well, much more detail in the Oly in the grass...and on both sides of the photo the Oly out performs easily...

As I said, and as you can see, I scaled them to the same magnification to enable comparison. In this case I upscaled the Oly because that makes the difference easier to see.

That would be the ideal way to do it -- upscale the lower-resolution one to match the pixel resolution of the highest-resolution in the comparison. Of course, as someone might point out, a slight softening might occur due to the bicubic interpolation, but you're not really losing information. If you're doing it the other way (downsizing the higher-resolution photo), you're throwing away detail which introduces a bias. I would call shenanigans on anyone doing that, at least as the only test; I would allow that it might be interesting as a side detail, but not as the main way to test.

Wow--Amazing how we see it differently. The tree, grass, everything are all mushy on the Oly image (relatively speaking). I can almost count every twig in that NEX shot.

I'll say. Even on my iPad, the difference is striking, and the Oly version isn't the better of the two.

I think you're being fooled by the processing of the Oly image which is sort of a large radius USM. But, hey, whatever.

When not pixel peeping, the contrast boost or USM or whatever it is does make the image pop nicely. Myself, I'm not a fan of oversharpening and try to avoid it. Too much sharpening messes with the low-level detail -- so does NR. But people continue to look at these things as good, so I dunno..... maybe its just me.

Bart

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Gary W.

Just not seeing what you gents are seeing...the Oly shot has many more details overall...100% crops from both...

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LTZ470
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Re: Try comparing like sizes
In reply to Bart Hickman, 6 months ago

Bart Hickman wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

Bart Hickman wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

Bart Hickman wrote:

nyoneway wrote:

This comparison is about lens not sensors. If you look at the Oly corner, it's much sharper than the Sony Zeiss.

It's amazing how a smaller image can trick us into thinking it's sharper.
I tried it both ways: 1. upsize the EM1 image so the scale was the same as the NEX-7 image. 2) downsize the NEX image to the same as the EM1 image. In both comparisons, there's no question the NEX-7 image is more detailed and you can get significantly better sharpness out of it. This applies across the frame.

I have to say the Oly image is a bit ratty-looking for a base iso image. The NEX7 image is smooth and still looks smooth after sharpening it similarly to the Oly. Perhaps it's being crippled by poor processing?

Bart

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All jpegs, PP lightly...no the 16mp m43 sensor will never quite stay up with the APS-C and FF sensors, but it is surprisingly closer than most folks think or want to admit...just means that it is good enough for many situations, but I have found it is better for nature and close ups...the new Panny 42.5 f/1.2 is sharp wide open...very nice lens in m43 favor with OIS and EM1 with IBIS, the IBIS is actually better than the OIS...

I'm aware of the good reputation of many of the m43 lenses which is why I would've thought these images would be closer in quality considering the prices are similar. I don't think anybody is afraid to admit that the two systems have similar quality when you spend similar amounts of money.

Here's what I'm talking about. I'm not saying Oly image is "bad" per se--it's just noticeably worse than the NEX-7 image. You can do this comparison anywhere in the frame and the NEX-7 comes out clearly on top.

Oly on left, Sony on right

Bart

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Two different sizes of photos Bart, unless you down size the N-7 or upsize the Oly...so not really comparable unless side x side at 100% both photos...

These are subjective as well, much more detail in the Oly in the grass...and on both sides of the photo the Oly out performs easily...

As I said, and as you can see, I scaled them to the same magnification to enable comparison. In this case I upscaled the Oly because that makes the difference easier to see.

Wow--Amazing how we see it differently. The tree, grass, everything are all mushy on the Oly image (relatively speaking). I can almost count every twig in that NEX shot.

I think you're being fooled by the processing of the Oly image which is sort of a large radius USM. But, hey, whatever.

Bart

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Still don't see it on my retina display the Nex-7 is mushy all over to my eyes, yes the color depth is there, but details are vague and mushy...100% crops...

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LTZ470
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Re: It's the lens
In reply to LTZ470, 6 months ago

It is the lens that is giving way, we all know the Nex-7 Sensor is phenomenal and probably one of the best sensors to date...but it needs glass to resolve no matter how good the sensor is...so larger diameter lens would definitely help the Nex and A7 series...distortion correction is a killer of IQ...

IF the Nex-7 would have had the same light as the A7r and EM1 it would have helped as well...it didn't plain and simple...

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Camley
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Re: A7r 24-70 vs Nex-7 16-70 vs EM1 12-40
In reply to nyoneway, 6 months ago

It should be sharper in the corners. The EM-1 has a much smaller "squarish" sensor so there is no magic lens performance!

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bigley Ling
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Re: EM1 12-40 vs Nex 5r speed booster with 24-105L
In reply to LTZ470, 6 months ago

LTZ470 wrote:

Easy to see why the Nex-5 looks blurrier with more bokeh...cause it is already blurry...

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Good point, both images are out of camera JPG. The Olympus JPG seems to have more applied sharpness, yet the overall rendering seems quite pleasant. Sony's JPG seems soft, and the noise seems to have a "digital" look.

I am extremely pleased with the 12-40 pro lens. It is an excellent match for the E-m1.

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LTZ470
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Re: A7r 24-70 vs Nex-7 16-70 vs EM1 12-40
In reply to Camley, 6 months ago

Camley wrote:

It should be sharper in the corners. The EM-1 has a much smaller "squarish" sensor so there is no magic lens performance!

Agreed, and thats why to get the same performance the FE and E Mount lens will have to be enlarged in diameter...

But the Oly lens is much better than you are giving credit, Oly makes PRO grade glass for sure, the 12-40 is one of them...it's that good, don't believe me, buy one with an EM5, EM10, or EM1 and short it beside the 18-55 kit lens...you'll soon see why it is labelled PRO...

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forpetessake
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Re: EM1 12-40 vs Nex 5r speed booster with 24-105L
In reply to bigley Ling, 6 months ago

bigley Ling wrote:

a very un scientific test I did at home tonight

Not just unscientific, it's flawed. The 12-40/2.8 is full equivalent (disregarding aspect ratio) of 24-80/5.6 on FF, not just DOF. You set it on f/2.8, i.e. f/5.6 on FF. And 24-105/4+SB on APS-C is full equivalent of 25.6-112/4.26 on FF, which you set at f/4, i.e f/4.26 on FF. So what are you comparing?

to compare bokeh from m43 vs APS-C speed booster to simulate close to full frame.

Olympus E-M1 with 12-40 f2.8 (DOF 5.6 equivalent) f2.8 light gathering

Sony NEX5r with speed booster and 24-105 f4L (DOF f4.0 equivalent) f2.8 light gathering

please ignore the while balance, obviously the E-M1 seems to have a cooler incandescent white balance over the NEX 5r

comments welcome

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bigley Ling
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Re: EM1 12-40 vs Nex 5r speed booster with 24-105L
In reply to forpetessake, 6 months ago

forpetessake wrote:

Not just unscientific, it's flawed. The 12-40/2.8 is full equivalent (disregarding aspect ratio) of 24-80/5.6 on FF, not just DOF. You set it on f/2.8, i.e. f/5.6 on FF. And 24-105/4+SB on APS-C is full equivalent of 25.6-112/4.26 on FF, which you set at f/4, i.e f/4.26 on FF. So what are you comparing?

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The 12-40mm pro lens I believe still takes in light at f2.8 ,and yes the effective DOF is 5.6.

I was just trying to see which has more narrow DOF. F4.26 is larger than f5.6 for DOF so I guess the Canon will still have leading edge for DOF.

Am I wrong is saying that both lens would be working at f2.8 for light?

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blue_skies
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Re: A7r 24-70 vs Nex-7 16-70 vs EM1 12-40
In reply to LTZ470, 6 months ago

Over Christmas, I compared a number of lenses on the A7.

You can see the set here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/111458433@N02/sets/72157639197006713/

A few samples included per below.

Getting sharp images is not difficult with either of your three setups. Understanding the differences is a bit more tricky.

Basically, DOF and light/sensor size are all interrelated, but so is image resolution and final sharpening.

Taking 3 OOC JPG and declare a winner is just an exercise for the day. Knowing why one camera outperforms the other ultimately results in a technique and a post-processing flow that will always make this one camera be preferred. Perhaps not for all, but at least to yourself.

Fwiw, I find that sharpening, when applied post any image re-sizing, is more effective in hinting IQ, but that the true IQ is always burried in the higher-pixel count image - assuming similar quality lenses, and proper handling of lighting/DOF/sensor size.

Also, in actual usage, I find the FF sensor by far the easiest to 'get what I want', even though I love the 16Mp of the Nex-6 (for many reasons).

I also think that everyone should go and try different ISOs to see what they can tolerate. The 'ISO 100 is best' may be true, but these Sony sensors let you shoot at ISO 800 without any noise. That gives you quite a bit flexibility to -yes- STOP DOWN

And, if the image is to be used at a certain size, it can be made to 'sparkle' for that size. Just do not zoom (pixel peep) in then

Lastly, if you compare cameras/formats - take series. Any single image can be mis-focused, OIS missed, camera shake, etc. - with a series you have a better feeling how the camera does in your hands.

BTW - I tried the RX10 last week - for what you seem to be aiming for (large DOF/low ISO), this may very well become your preferred camera - do go try one!

Nex-6

A7

A7

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captura
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Re: A7r 24-70 vs Nex-7 16-70 vs EM1 12-40
In reply to LTZ470, 6 months ago

There were a few reported instances of the 12-40 lens, which has plastic construction, breaking in half.

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bigley Ling
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Re: A7r 24-70 vs Nex-7 16-70 vs EM1 12-40
In reply to captura, 6 months ago

captura wrote:

There were a few reported instances of the 12-40 lens, which has plastic construction, breaking in half.

That is indeed interesting, care to share the link where this is reported?

I have dropped my 12-40mm and it has not fallen in half. Anyhow the 12-40 lens is a well balanced lens that mates the E-M1 extremely well. The idea of incorporating more metal internal components would add much weight, and the overall portability of the lens will be compromised.

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Bart Hickman
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Re: It's the lens
In reply to LTZ470, 6 months ago

LTZ470 wrote:

It is the lens that is giving way, we all know the Nex-7 Sensor is phenomenal and probably one of the best sensors to date...but it needs glass to resolve no matter how good the sensor is...so larger diameter lens would definitely help the Nex and A7 series...distortion correction is a killer of IQ...

IF the Nex-7 would have had the same light as the A7r and EM1 it would have helped as well...it didn't plain and simple...

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You're not comparing like sizes and getting fooled by the Oly processing.  The NEX-7 image is resolving more detail.  If you need iron-clad confirmation, try doing a spectral analysis on the two images.  The NEX-7 will have much higher spatial bandwidth.

I would hesitate to make any conclusion on this comparison, but if I had to, I'd say the Oly is soft.

Bart

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bigley Ling
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Could it be difference in JPG processing?
In reply to LTZ470, 6 months ago

LTZ470 wrote:

It is the lens that is giving way, we all know the Nex-7 Sensor is phenomenal and probably one of the best sensors to date...but it needs glass to resolve no matter how good the sensor is...so larger diameter lens would definitely help the Nex and A7 series...distortion correction is a killer of IQ...

IF the Nex-7 would have had the same light as the A7r and EM1 it would have helped as well...it didn't plain and simple...

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Are these out of camera JPG? If so, Sony's out of camera JPG engine for the NEX 7 was good, but was known to be not as good compared to the likes of Olympus or Fuji. If it is OOC JPG, This would explain the softer image in the N7.

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forpetessake
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Re: EM1 12-40 vs Nex 5r speed booster with 24-105L
In reply to bigley Ling, 6 months ago

bigley Ling wrote:

forpetessake wrote:

Not just unscientific, it's flawed. The 12-40/2.8 is full equivalent (disregarding aspect ratio) of 24-80/5.6 on FF, not just DOF. You set it on f/2.8, i.e. f/5.6 on FF. And 24-105/4+SB on APS-C is full equivalent of 25.6-112/4.26 on FF, which you set at f/4, i.e f/4.26 on FF. So what are you comparing?

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The 12-40mm pro lens I believe still takes in light at f2.8 ,and yes the effective DOF is 5.6.

That's what stubborn people on m4/3 forum believe, they invented perpetuum mobile and don't even realize that. To calculate the light received by the sensor you need to integrate the light flux hitting the sensor over the area. The size does matter. In the final analysis, it's the lens physical aperture that collects the light, f-stop is just a ratio = aperture/FL, so you can as well integrate the incoming flux for a given field of view over the aperture area of the lens, there is no magic in the world that can make 12mm/2.8=4.28mm aperture on m4/3 to collect more light than 24mm/4 = 6 mm aperture on FF for the same FOV.

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LTZ470
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Re: EM1 12-40 vs Nex 5r speed booster with 24-105L
In reply to forpetessake, 6 months ago

forpetessake wrote:

bigley Ling wrote:

forpetessake wrote:

Not just unscientific, it's flawed. The 12-40/2.8 is full equivalent (disregarding aspect ratio) of 24-80/5.6 on FF, not just DOF. You set it on f/2.8, i.e. f/5.6 on FF. And 24-105/4+SB on APS-C is full equivalent of 25.6-112/4.26 on FF, which you set at f/4, i.e f/4.26 on FF. So what are you comparing?

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter -- Winston Churchill

The 12-40mm pro lens I believe still takes in light at f2.8 ,and yes the effective DOF is 5.6.

That's what stubborn people on m4/3 forum believe, they invented perpetuum mobile and don't even realize that. To calculate the light received by the sensor you need to integrate the light flux hitting the sensor over the area. The size does matter. In the final analysis, it's the lens physical aperture that collects the light, f-stop is just a ratio = aperture/FL, so you can as well integrate the incoming flux for a given field of view over the aperture area of the lens, there is no magic in the world that can make 12mm/2.8=4.28mm aperture on m4/3 to collect more light than 24mm/4 = 6 mm aperture on FF for the same FOV.

Then explain why the shutter speed is faster on m43 at f/2.8 vs APS-c or FF at f/4?...it does make a difference...BIG difference...stubbornness has nothing to do with it...

And then add the sharpness of the 12-40 at f/2.8...it's excellent...

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LTZ470
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Re: It's the lens
In reply to Bart Hickman, 6 months ago

Bart Hickman wrote:

LTZ470 wrote:

It is the lens that is giving way, we all know the Nex-7 Sensor is phenomenal and probably one of the best sensors to date...but it needs glass to resolve no matter how good the sensor is...so larger diameter lens would definitely help the Nex and A7 series...distortion correction is a killer of IQ...

IF the Nex-7 would have had the same light as the A7r and EM1 it would have helped as well...it didn't plain and simple...

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You're not comparing like sizes and getting fooled by the Oly processing. The NEX-7 image is resolving more detail. If you need iron-clad confirmation, try doing a spectral analysis on the two images. The NEX-7 will have much higher spatial bandwidth.

I would hesitate to make any conclusion on this comparison, but if I had to, I'd say the Oly is soft.

Bart

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Sorry Bart, we'll have to agree to disagree...I let my eyes tell me what is detailed and whats not...I see (take) a lot of soft/mushy images so I know what they look like...lol...

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