micro 4/3 or APC compact systems WHICH ONE ?

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Steve
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micro 4/3 or APC compact systems WHICH ONE ?
5 months ago

ok..

i'm at the point where i have to make a decision. I just sold my d7000 /18-200mm to buy a CSC.

i like the OMD em1, for its stabilization (i dont take tripods on vacation and my wife is tired of resting my tool (of the trade) on her head).

the lens are smaller than APC lenses. so the size and weight would be great...

the only thing bothering me is dynamic range.. and especially NOISE..

the fuji XT-1 on the other hand, very similar to the OMD, would produce less noise but the lenses i imagine will be bigger..

(that's one reason i didn't switch earlier.. i always thought the sony's looked idiotic with tiny bodies and huge unbalanced lenses)...

now  since i only print to 12x18 max.. maybe a little noise reduction is all i need in PP..

i will probably be getting a moderate zoom (18ish-55) and maybe a wider prime.. i understand that Olympus and Fuji glass are both very good...

(one newbie question: would a 18-135 lens on the fuji be much larger than the same on an OMD ? is an APC lens the same size regardless whether there is a mirror in the camera ?

if i can get better quality with a little bigger lens.. then i.m ok with it...

('resting my tool on my wife's head' .. i can't believe i just wrote that...

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: micro 4/3 or APC compact systems WHICH ONE ?
In reply to Steve, 5 months ago

ok..

i'm at the point where i have to make a decision. I just sold my d7000 /18-200mm to buy a CSC.

i like the OMD em1, for its stabilization (i dont take tripods on vacation and my wife is tired of resting my tool (of the trade) on her head).

the lens are smaller than APC lenses. so the size and weight would be great...

the only thing bothering me is dynamic range.. and especially NOISE..

the fuji XT-1 on the other hand, very similar to the OMD, would produce less noise but the lenses i imagine will be bigger..

(that's one reason i didn't switch earlier.. i always thought the sony's looked idiotic with tiny bodies and huge unbalanced lenses)...

now  since i only print to 12x18 max.. maybe a little noise reduction is all i need in PP..

i will probably be getting a moderate zoom (18ish-55) and maybe a wider prime.. i understand that Olympus and Fuji glass are both very good...

(one newbie question: would a 18-135 lens on the fuji be much larger than the same on an OMD ? is an APC lens the same size regardless whether there is a mirror in the camera ?

if i can get better quality with a little bigger lens.. then i.m ok with it...

('resting my tool on my wife's head' .. i can't believe i just wrote that...

What lenses do you plan on getting? What is your most used FL? Do you prefer wider FL or care more about optical reach? And what is your budget?

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Steve
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Re: micro 4/3 or APC compact systems WHICH ONE ?
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, 5 months ago

Most of my shots are around 24-75 (full frame).. although my 18-200 had quite a bit of use at 150-300.. but i'm willing to go narrower range with better quality...

maybe primes in the future. but a zoom serves me well.. the fuji 16-55 looks nice but read it may be like 78mm ! that sounds like a big lens.

the olympus will have a constant 2.8 which also looks nice...  maybe brighter would mean lower iso an d lower noise...  although i think fuji will come out with a 2.8 as well ??

money is not too much of an object.. i paid $800 for my nikon. so i wouldn't care if i paid $1000-1200 for a good zoom..

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Joel Stern
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Re: micro 4/3 or APC compact systems WHICH ONE ?
In reply to Steve, 5 months ago

Steve wrote:

Most of my shots are around 24-75 (full frame).. although my 18-200 had quite a bit of use at 150-300.. but i'm willing to go narrower range with better quality...

maybe primes in the future. but a zoom serves me well.. the fuji 16-55 looks nice but read it may be like 78mm ! that sounds like a big lens.

the olympus will have a constant 2.8 which also looks nice... maybe brighter would mean lower iso an d lower noise... although i think fuji will come out with a 2.8 as well ??

money is not too much of an object.. i paid $800 for my nikon. so i wouldn't care if i paid $1000-1200 for a good zoom..

Both of those lenses will be big. The fiji XE1 with 18-55 can be had for $799 righr now, primes are on sale for a few more weeks. I looked at the Panasonic GX7, nice camera, fuji has less noise and better lrnses. I was not imoressed with Chinese made Olympus lenses, i got  2 decentererd 45mm. I like the  panasonic & Sigma m43 lenses if you go that route.

good luck

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marvin t martian
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Re: micro 4/3 or APC compact systems WHICH ONE ?
In reply to Steve, 5 months ago

Steve wrote:
(one newbie question: would a 18-135 lens on the fuji be much larger than the same on an OMD ? is an APC lens the same size regardless whether there is a mirror in the camera ?

Fuji's 18-135 hasn't been released yet. It's supposed to be here sometime in the first half of this year (IIRC) but there's been no further information on release dates, or size, since it was announced in January.

Lenses for mirrorless cameras are usually smaller than lenses for DSLRs with the same sensor size. The Fuji 18-135 will probably be smaller than equivalent Canon and Nikon lenses but nothing is absolutely certain at this point.

An equivalent lens on M43 will be smaller due to the reduced size of the M43 sensor.

Fuji has notably better IQ--and narrower DOF--than M43 but has slower autofocus.

M43 is infamous for its shutter shock issue, which results in blurred images at commonly used shutter speeds.

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PenPix
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Re: micro 4/3 or APC compact systems WHICH ONE ?
In reply to Steve, 5 months ago

Steve wrote:

Most of my shots are around 24-75 (full frame).. although my 18-200 had quite a bit of use at 150-300.. but i'm willing to go narrower range with better quality...

maybe primes in the future. but a zoom serves me well.. the fuji 16-55 looks nice but read it may be like 78mm ! that sounds like a big lens.

the olympus will have a constant 2.8 which also looks nice... maybe brighter would mean lower iso an d lower noise... although i think fuji will come out with a 2.8 as well ??

XF 50-140mm f/2.8 is expected to be out late this year (in time for Christmas?)

money is not too much of an object.. i paid $800 for my nikon. so i wouldn't care if i paid $1000-1200 for a good zoom..

Indeed.  A good lens is often more important than the body.

I did look at m3/4 when I was looking for a DSLR replacement and found the noise unsightly at 1600 ISO, while the APS-C sensors are quite acceptable (IMO).  Compared to my D700, the X-E1 has more chroma noise, but the detail and graininess is about the same.  This is easily fixed with SilkyPix. (the OOC jpegs are so good I don't have to touch the RAW files much)

Unfortunately, once you add a long lens in the mix, the Fuji system is not compact anymore.  Before I used to go hiking with just my D200 and 18-200mm lens.  Now I have a 14mm, 35mm, and 55-200mm in a backpack… almost double what I used to carry.  Fortunately the weight isn't that much more and the trade off is a superior image quality.

The big payoff with the Fuji is doing street photography.  Any of the primes or the kit zoom are excellent, small, and less intrusive than my DSLR combos.

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GodSpeaks
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micro 4/3
In reply to Steve, 5 months ago

MFT has better bodies and a much better selection of lenses.

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Donald Chin
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Re: micro 4/3 or APC compact systems WHICH ONE ?
In reply to Steve, 5 months ago

If I were you I would just pick up a Sony RX10 or wait for the Canon GX1 MarkII.

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jcharding
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Re: micro 4/3 or APC compact systems WHICH ONE ?
In reply to Steve, 5 months ago

I use both systems.  The shortest and best answer is to simply choose the one that feels the best in your hand.

Both systems are capable of producing excellent images.  If you insist on parsing the assorted pluses and minuses, it really comes down to personal preference. For me, both systems are good enough image wise and small enough size wise.  Both have excellent external controls. The Fuji is more old school, the Olympus more customizable.  Is IBIS in everything necessary, or is the optical stabilization in select Fuji lenses sufficient. Do you need video, that favors Oly but if you want video badly a Sony or Panasonic body may be preferable.

in terms of specific size and weight questions, an xt1 and an OMD are pretty close size wise. The Oly lenses will be smaller, however for my purposes the Fuji lenses are, again, small enough.

no bad choices here.

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Jim Salvas
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Re: micro 4/3 or APC compact systems WHICH ONE ?
In reply to Steve, 5 months ago

I can't speak from experience about the Fuji option, though I know I'd be considering it if I were switching today instead of a few months ago, when I bought my E-M1. My guess is that I'd still pick the E-M1, but that might be colored by how much I've become attached to it in this short time.

I also switched from a Nikon camera, in my case, a D300 I'd used for both personal and limited pro use (I shoot products, some stock photography and portraits). It was a big switch for me, but I've found this camera and system brilliant. Here's what I like about it:

1) The E-M1's ergonomics are the best I've ever used. The 2x2 dial system puts my four most-used functions (aperture, exposure compensation, ISO and white balance) under the control of my right thumb and forefinger. Everything can be customized to the nth degree.

2) The image quality is plenty good enough for professional use. If and when I get a client who wants an image the size of a bus, I'll rent a D800. I know the dynamic range limits me in the very lowest light, but see item 3 coming up.

3) The in-body stabilization is amazing! I can handhold the 20-40 lens down to 1/10 of a second and sometimes even lower. This makes up for any dynamic range limitations in low light, unless you're shooting action. Because it's in body, every lens is stabilized, from fisheyes, through long telephotos.

4) The lens selection is great and you can buy absolutely top notch quality for reasonable prices. The 75/1.8 is maybe the sharpest lens I've ever used and it is making me money. I started taking portraits with it and I'm now getting references for more jobs because people are reacting to how good these shots look. Even the cheap lenses, such as the kit 40-150 lens sold with some of the Pen bodies, are quite good.

5) I can use legacy lenses or almost any lens which can make an image via a cheap adapter and it will be stabilized. I'm dragging out old manual focus macros and telephotos, just for fun. When the weather gets better, I'm even going to try a 600mm mirror lens - stabilized.

6) The autofocus is very good. Some say it's not fast enough for birds in flight, but for normal life, it does not keep you waiting and it is spot on accurate. There is no such thing as doing AF fine tuning for a lens (as on Nikons) because with contrast detect, that isn't needed. The eye detect feature also makes focusing portraits a breeze.

7) The camera is small enough to make for a very portable kit, but big enough to give you a decent grip. The darned grip is made to almost grab you, instead of the other way around.

All this said, I can see where the Fuji X-t1 should be a consideration, but as you can tell, this old Nikon user is happy with his E-M1 (and E-PM2, for my wife).

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bosjohn21
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Re: micro 4/3 or APC compact systems WHICH ONE ?
In reply to Steve, 5 months ago

not enough difference to be a deal breaker

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Jack Hass
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Re: micro 4/3 or APC compact systems WHICH ONE ?
In reply to Steve, 5 months ago

I recently switched from APSC to MFT. One thing i prided my camera on was noise performance. I had a K5-IIs and it was the first APSC camera to pass the 1200 mark on DXO's ISO test. Now, i own a GX7 and i don't know if it is better PS software or the GX7 but the files clean up extremely well. It seems i lose very little detail when i use NR, that is a good thing. Long story short, i went from a very good ISO performing APSC to a compact ILC and i have no regrets.

Also keep in mind, my Pentax K5 had over 14 stops of DR, it was the best APSC of it's time for most sides of IQ. The thing is, when you convert to jpeg, you crush that DR down to under 9 stops. All that extra DR is more for editing, or for compressing a single photo into an HDR type photo. The DR whores of the community are usually landscapers, and if you must have better than the 12+ stops of MFT, you can simply bracket.

In all honesty, coming from a very high rated camera (the pentax), i am every bit just as impressed with my GX7 and it offers features that benefit me far more than 12 points on a DXO IQ chart. Focus peaking, real time exposure, electronic shutter, these are the things im gaining here in MFT. This is just my experience but i really don't think you need to worry about IQ. Also keep in mind Fuji tends to overstate it's ISO. For the same lighting using auto ISO, they are just about even with the rest of the APSC pack. In otherwords, when the X-E1 is set to ISO 6400, it's really only giving you around ISO 4000.

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D Cox
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Re: micro 4/3 or APC compact systems WHICH ONE ?
In reply to Steve, 5 months ago

Steve wrote:

ok..

i'm at the point where i have to make a decision. I just sold my d7000 /18-200mm to buy a CSC.

i like the OMD em1,

the only thing bothering me is dynamic range.. and especially NOISE..

Noise level depends on the size of the pixels (not simply the size of the sensor but how many pixels are packed into that area), the development generation of the sensor (newer sensors are usually better), and on the contrast of the lens (a more contrasty lens will give less noise).

Dynamic range is mainly a side effect of noise, assuming you avoid clipping the highlights.

So, if you compare two sensors both with 16 Megapixels, the bigger one will have less noise. But if the bigger one also has more pixels, there may not be much in it. And if you use a brilliant prime lens on one and a low contrast zoom on the other, that could cancel any improvement.

For best results use a first class prime lens on full frame. For example, the Sony A7 with a Zeiss prime lens.

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D Cox
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Re: micro 4/3 or APC compact systems WHICH ONE ?
In reply to marvin t martian, 5 months ago

marvin t martian wrote:

M43 is infamous for its shutter shock issue, which results in blurred images at commonly used shutter speeds.

The solution for that is either an electronic first curtain, or a leaf shutter (which is difficult to combine with changeable lenses).

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tecnoworld
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Re: micro 4/3 or APC compact systems WHICH ONE ?
In reply to Steve, 5 months ago

If you need very fast af and caf and don't care about the lack of touch screen, for me the best choice is now the sony A6000. It's also quite cheap for what it offers, compared to competition, and seems to have a gorgeous sensor in it.

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KCook
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Re: micro 4/3 or APC compact systems WHICH ONE ?
In reply to Steve, 5 months ago

There is no need to guess about lens sizes and handling.  Both Borrowlenses and Lensrentals have mirrorless systems for rent.

Kelly Cook

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Lab D
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Get the Panasonic F/2.8 zooms
In reply to Steve, 5 months ago

Steve wrote:

Most of my shots are around 24-75 (full frame).. although my 18-200 had quite a bit of use at 150-300.. but i'm willing to go narrower range with better quality...

Panasonic makes a 24-70mm (full frame) zoom that is very sharp wide open. It is smaller than the Olympus and much smaller than any APS F/2.8 zoom. They make a 70-200mm (FullFrame) F/2.8 zoom that is tiny compared to other zooms too. IF you go with primes then the 5 axis IBIS will give the E-M1 a large advantage.

Then look at the size of Olympus 40-150mm (90-300mm) lens and compare it to any APS 300mm lens. You will quickly see the size advantage. Remember that diameter is 2 out of the 3 dimensions and APS with its larger image circle will always have a much larger image circle. As for that 3rd dimension, the M43 crop factor means M43 lenses will usually be shorter too.

As for Dynamic Range look at how the E-M1 has more than other APS cameras even after adjusting images to the same resolution. I don't think there is a big enough difference to matter, but clearly the smaller sensor has no disadvantage.

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Joel Stern
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One last thing Re: micro 4/3 or APC compact systems WHICH ONE ?
In reply to Steve, 5 months ago

I brought in the GX7 to try with the Panasonic 20mm (great lens) and the Olympus 45 (got 2 that were decentered),  then got the Sigma 30 and 60. I liked the camera a lot, I shoot at low ISO so noise was not an issue, but it was the dead of this winter and there was no way to really evaluate the camera. It felt good, the lenses were small, the zoom it came with was terrible to my eyes. I test all of my lenses when they come in against a brick wall with camera on a tripod and no issues with the zoom or the others, just the 45mm. What I did not like were the new style controls where all is with wheels.

Enter Fuji XF deal, going on now and into March in USA and Canada

I brought in the XE1 as I did not believe the XE2 offered that much more if anything and the XT1 is not my cup of T, I like the sleeker styling of these other cameras.

Got the Kit lens as it is about the best Kit lens out there

Also bought the following in APSc terms, 14, 23, 27 and 60.  The 23 was decentered, and I have heard this being a small issue but an issue. The second one is better but it is for me big. What I like is the the lack of Noise in RAW with (what some way is NR applied) but I cannot see it. You have to be selective with fuji XTrans on Raw processors. The 14mm is a wonderful lens as is the 60, the zoom is the best Kit zoom I have seen but so far has seen little use, the 27mm is great. I will probably exchange the 23mm due to it's size and get the 35mm (due to it's size). The camera feels good, the GX7 felt a bit big at the grip, but you may like it, or the Oly's you have mentioned.

Good luck, lot's of good information in this thread for you.

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wchutt
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In reply to Steve, 5 months ago

It's all about if you enjoy using the camera and about the lens systems.

Thinking about the sensors and data stream without thinking about the lenses is only doing half the job.

The only difference that everyone will agree on is a 4:3 aspect ratio vs a 3:2 aspect ratio without throwing away pixels. Which aspect ratio appeals to you?

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BarnET
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Re: Get the Panasonic F/2.8 zooms
In reply to Lab D, 5 months ago

Lab D wrote:

Steve wrote:

Most of my shots are around 24-75 (full frame).. although my 18-200 had quite a bit of use at 150-300.. but i'm willing to go narrower range with better quality...

Panasonic makes a 24-70mm (full frame) zoom that is very sharp wide open. It is smaller than the Olympus and much smaller than any APS F/2.8 zoom. They make a 70-200mm (FullFrame) F/2.8 zoom that is tiny compared to other zooms too. IF you go with primes then the 5 axis IBIS will give the E-M1 a large advantage.

Then look at the size of Olympus 40-150mm (90-300mm) lens and compare it to any APS 300mm lens. You will quickly see the size advantage. Remember that diameter is 2 out of the 3 dimensions and APS with its larger image circle will always have a much larger image circle. As for that 3rd dimension, the M43 crop factor means M43 lenses will usually be shorter too.

As for Dynamic Range look at how the E-M1 has more than other APS cameras even after adjusting images to the same resolution. I don't think there is a big enough difference to matter, but clearly the smaller sensor has no disadvantage.

Your Comparing an Canon which are known to be poor in dynamic range and an 3year old 16mp sony which has been great for many years but has been superceded. Then you picked the best most expensive m43 body. This gives flawed results. If you compare systems compare it to the best. M43 has come a very long way and it's no longer way behind as it was in the past. But New apsc sensors still have an edge.

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