Most of us are choosing less Megapixels but still hounded by MegaPixel Police!

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
phazelag
Senior MemberPosts: 2,342Gear list
Like?
Most of us are choosing less Megapixels but still hounded by MegaPixel Police!
8 months ago

I have been on a lot more forums than my usual brands lately I am noticing that the megapixel police are still out in force.

Here is a list of my cameras where I have deliberately chosen less megapixels in hopes for better low light performance, lower noise, better signal to noise ratio.

HTC one camera phone - 4MP when the top phones have 8 and 13MP. The sensor on the HTC One is much larger than an iPhone. So I wanted to see if there is anything to it and it does help, but I think I lose too much resolution in good light.

Canon G11, Olympus XZ-1, Panasonic LF-1, Panasonic FZ200. I bought all of these cameras at 10 and 12MP when there are plenty of options in the 16-20MP range.

For DSLR's and M43rds I decided on other factors not MegaPixels. I think this is the case for the vast majority of informed pros or enthusiasts on these forums. Most of us regulars have been putting our MegaPixels where our mouth is and choosing less for years. But every day on here when someone requests or expresses a preference for a few more megapixels for which they have valid points and reasons to use those, they are immediately lectured by the MegaPixel Police with stories of noise and diffraction.

It would just be refreshing to be able to talk about MegaPixels without having to endure the onslaught of comments from people who assume you have never considered the value of less MegaPixels.

And yes I crop to zoom all the time, it works, is useful to me and I will continue to do it and the MegaPixel Police are not going to stop me! LOL! I think DPreview should let us click a button next to the like button on a thread to report megapixel police and once they get 10 reports they get a little siren icon beside their name like a MOD icon!

-- hide signature --
 phazelag's gear list:phazelag's gear list
Sigma DP3 Merrill Ricoh GR Panasonic Lumix DMC-LF1 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX100 III Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ1000
Canon PowerShot G11 Olympus XZ-1
If you believe there are incorrect tags, please send us this post using our feedback form.
Mike_PEAT
Forum ProPosts: 10,496Gear list
Like?
nt)"Poor is the man whose pleasure depends on the permission of another." - Madonna
In reply to phazelag, 8 months ago

nt=No text

 Mike_PEAT's gear list:Mike_PEAT's gear list
Lytro Light Field 16GB
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
quadrox
Senior MemberPosts: 1,018Gear list
Like?
Re: Most of us are choosing less Megapixels but still hounded by MegaPixel Police!
In reply to phazelag, 8 months ago

You should get a camera with one single pixel, I am sure it will be much sharper and less noisy than all those fancy many megapixel cameras.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

case closed.

 quadrox's gear list:quadrox's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Mark II Canon EOS 7D Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM Canon EF 55-200mm f/4.5-5.6 II USM +2 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Pantyhose Bandit
Contributing MemberPosts: 668Gear list
Like?
Re: Most of us are choosing less Megapixels but still hounded by MegaPixel Police!
In reply to phazelag, 8 months ago

Megapixels are largely a scam anyway. I wrote an article about that which had 1500 views in one day.

Briefly - they're a stupid but very effective marketing ploy designed to make people buy the next camera.

The difference between megapixels is so tiddly that it's not worth the time of day.

10 megapixels is better than 8 megapixels? I'm going to call baloney on that one. What is the actual difference? On a 2:3 ratio camera, 8 megapixels is 3456 x 2304 pixels. 10 megapixels is 3888 x 2592. This is a whole 344 pixels wider and a while 298 pixels taller. Whoopie! Bring out the dancing girls!

http://www.britphoto.us/2013/11/the-great-digital-scam.html

As I said, I wrote about the great megapixel scam ages ago. I opted out of extra megapixels when cameras reached 8 megapixels. I just don't need more. I have printed 16x24 competition prints from 8 megapixels with no problem.

99.9% of my photos stay on my computer. Bigger images are just a waste of storage space. It's the same for everybody.

 Pantyhose Bandit's gear list:Pantyhose Bandit's gear list
Leica S2 Leica APO-Summicron-M 50mm f/2 ASPH Brother MFC-J6910dw Echo One File Juicer Vertu Ti +2 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
steephill
Veteran MemberPosts: 9,166
Like?
Evidence?
In reply to phazelag, 8 months ago

Who is this "most" that you talk about? I think you mean yourself.

-- hide signature --

Steve
www.pbase.com/steephill

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
pixelpushing
Senior MemberPosts: 1,533Gear list
Like?
Pixel Police? Why, I thought...
In reply to phazelag, 8 months ago

...you were describing the high-waistband types that decry and bemoan any reckless ramp-up of pixel count. A tale as old as Polaroids and protecting your sod from the trampling feet of neighborhood children, dontcha know.

Why, one might assume them digital whatzits are near inoperable by now, due to massive noise brought about by impulsive refining of the pixel matrix. Not dissimilar to the legions of film devotees that (still) believe digital is the Devil's Business.

Well brother, it's time to open your heart to salvation and hear the Good news. The big secret here is this: If you prefer a lower MP camera, you can still use one.

In the words of Lady Gaga herself, 'I know, right?' I mean, sure, some reefer smokers may fall prey to higher MP models that turn out images that aren't multicolored barf-fests of pixel trash. BUT. Not a one of these radical rez loonies and their high falootin' contraptions with crazy sensors (as high as 12MP!!) can control or police what you use...unless you let them.

Oh, sure. Some of these progressive pixel cultists might spout nonsense about advantages of higher density sensors, or spread filthy lies about relatively 'good' noise performance of new generations. If you want to call that being POLICED, well, I'd say you're a bit sensitive.

So... Do you police your lawn from encroaching kids, much?

 pixelpushing's gear list:pixelpushing's gear list
Sony Alpha 7 Sony FE 55mm F1.8 Sony FE 28-70mm F3.5-5.6 OSS Samsung Galaxy Note 4 Apple iPad Air
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Fish Chris
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,850Gear list
Like?
I guess I'm still an exception.
In reply to phazelag, 8 months ago

I LOVE more MP's. Oh sure, I want those MP's to be as good a quality as is possible. But I DO print large. 20"x30"s are okay.... But I wish I could print 40"x60"s..... heck, how about 60x90's

Next, somebody will tell me I need to go large format. Well, I'd love to.... but not sure if selling my truck, my car, and my boat, would be enough to get me going with all that LOL

In the mean time, I'll just deal with dinky little 20x30"s......

Peace,

Fish

 Fish Chris's gear list:Fish Chris's gear list
Canon EOS 7D Canon EF 400mm f/5.6L USM Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
unknown member
(unknown member)
Like?
A Balancing Act
In reply to phazelag, 8 months ago

You need enough pixels to be able to print reasonable size pictures, and to be able to crop, but not so much that you then end up with an unnecessarily huge file, and of lesser quality, that needs to be resampled down to yield acceptable looking quality. It's a balancing act that is dictated by sensor size, type and quality. The example of the HTC One bucking the trend by having 4MP is very reasonable considering the size of the sensor.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
sportyaccordy
Senior MemberPosts: 1,238Gear list
Like?
Re: Most of us are choosing less Megapixels but still hounded by MegaPixel Police!
In reply to phazelag, 8 months ago

I dont see how bragging about choosing devices with less megapixels (which is essentially what you did in the first post) is any better than being a MP douchebag. You are the same but on the other side of the coin.

 sportyaccordy's gear list:sportyaccordy's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-C3 +4 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
phazelag
Senior MemberPosts: 2,342Gear list
Like?
Re: Evidence?
In reply to steephill, 8 months ago

steephill wrote:

Who is this "most" that you talk about? I think you mean yourself.

-- hide signature --

Steve
www.pbase.com/steephill

Most of the people with more than 10 posts in the Panasonic Forum are all people using camaras like the LX7, LF1, and FZ200. They are not hard to find. They are fairly educated and polite in that forum and it is my usual hang out.

Most of the Canon S95-120 and G users are in this category too.  But the Canon forum has alot more newbies who are still learning. But the experienced guys there are pretty cool.

-- hide signature --
 phazelag's gear list:phazelag's gear list
Sigma DP3 Merrill Ricoh GR Panasonic Lumix DMC-LF1 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX100 III Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ1000
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
phazelag
Senior MemberPosts: 2,342Gear list
Like?
Re: Most of us are choosing less Megapixels but still hounded by MegaPixel Police!
In reply to sportyaccordy, 8 months ago

sportyaccordy wrote:

I dont see how bragging about choosing devices with less megapixels (which is essentially what you did in the first post) is any better than being a MP douchebag. You are the same but on the other side of the coin.

I guess you could see it as bragging. But many will see it as I do, we know the difference and our choice in cameras should confirm it to the megpixel police (that was the point of listing them, its not like I buy expensive cameras considering whats available), but they never care to look at that, they just jump right in with their scripture about diffraction and noise like we have never considered that, just because we mention it would be nice for example for a Megapixel boost when a company brings out a new camera with an older sensor. It would have been nicer to see a newer more modern sensor with even less noise than the old one, but also a few more MP's to work with in good light.

www.scottzinda.com
http://instagram.com/phazelag
http://motivationmachine.net/

 phazelag's gear list:phazelag's gear list
Sigma DP3 Merrill Ricoh GR Panasonic Lumix DMC-LF1 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX100 III Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ1000
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
phazelag
Senior MemberPosts: 2,342Gear list
Like?
I knew this thread would catch on quick MP talk always does!
In reply to phazelag, 8 months ago

The quickness of replies on here just proves how much this topic is hot for both sides and there should be room for middle ground.

 phazelag's gear list:phazelag's gear list
Sigma DP3 Merrill Ricoh GR Panasonic Lumix DMC-LF1 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX100 III Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ1000
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
phazelag
Senior MemberPosts: 2,342Gear list
Like?
Re: Most of us are choosing less Megapixels but still hounded by MegaPixel Police!
In reply to sportyaccordy, 8 months ago

sportyaccordy wrote:

I dont see how bragging about choosing devices with less megapixels (which is essentially what you did in the first post) is any better than being a MP douchebag. You are the same but on the other side of the coin.

BTW I dont still own all of those I have bought and sold.  So its not bragging, it is an attempt to satisfy the Diffraction Gods and Signal to Noise masters.

 phazelag's gear list:phazelag's gear list
Sigma DP3 Merrill Ricoh GR Panasonic Lumix DMC-LF1 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX100 III Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ1000
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
phazelag
Senior MemberPosts: 2,342Gear list
Like?
The DP Merrill is a good example MP's are not always a scam!
In reply to Pantyhose Bandit, 8 months ago

Pantyhose Bandit wrote:

Megapixels are largely a scam anyway. I wrote an article about that which had 1500 views in one day.

Briefly - they're a stupid but very effective marketing ploy designed to make people buy the next camera.

The difference between megapixels is so tiddly that it's not worth the time of day.

10 megapixels is better than 8 megapixels? I'm going to call baloney on that one. What is the actual difference? On a 2:3 ratio camera, 8 megapixels is 3456 x 2304 pixels. 10 megapixels is 3888 x 2592. This is a whole 344 pixels wider and a while 298 pixels taller. Whoopie! Bring out the dancing girls!

http://www.britphoto.us/2013/11/the-great-digital-scam.html

As I said, I wrote about the great megapixel scam ages ago. I opted out of extra megapixels when cameras reached 8 megapixels. I just don't need more. I have printed 16x24 competition prints from 8 megapixels with no problem.

99.9% of my photos stay on my computer. Bigger images are just a waste of storage space. It's the same for everybody.

Many Pro's are waking up to cameras like the DP Merrill and they are making money with it.  But they know they have to shoot it either on a tripod or in good light. 46MPs that some people find useful for pulling out detail.

 phazelag's gear list:phazelag's gear list
Sigma DP3 Merrill Ricoh GR Panasonic Lumix DMC-LF1 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX100 III Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ1000
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
phazelag
Senior MemberPosts: 2,342Gear list
Like?
The main point of this.
In reply to phazelag, 8 months ago

We don't know what each others experiences or considerations are, with the exception of a few people we may interact with frequently.  And even those people we don't know very much, but we know enough to give them the benefit of the doubt based on previously displays of wisdom.

But it gets old seeing thread after thread of knowledgeable people being flamed for preferring more MP's once in a while.  When I see someone asking about something like this, I ask them questions like;

How would that help you?  What are the downsides to adding more MP's on a sensor? Will that sensor still perform well in low light?  What technology improvements allow for that?

Not everyone needs a lecture and few will even absorb it in that fashion.  So it would just be great to see people trying ask some clarifying questions that help lead both sides to a better understanding of each others point of view.

 phazelag's gear list:phazelag's gear list
Sigma DP3 Merrill Ricoh GR Panasonic Lumix DMC-LF1 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX100 III Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ1000
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
MoreorLess
Senior MemberPosts: 2,830
Like?
Re: Most of us are choosing less Megapixels but still hounded by MegaPixel Police!
In reply to Pantyhose Bandit, 8 months ago

Pantyhose Bandit wrote:

Megapixels are largely a scam anyway. I wrote an article about that which had 1500 views in one day.

Briefly - they're a stupid but very effective marketing ploy designed to make people buy the next camera.

The difference between megapixels is so tiddly that it's not worth the time of day.

10 megapixels is better than 8 megapixels? I'm going to call baloney on that one. What is the actual difference? On a 2:3 ratio camera, 8 megapixels is 3456 x 2304 pixels. 10 megapixels is 3888 x 2592. This is a whole 344 pixels wider and a while 298 pixels taller. Whoopie! Bring out the dancing girls!

http://www.britphoto.us/2013/11/the-great-digital-scam.html

As I said, I wrote about the great megapixel scam ages ago. I opted out of extra megapixels when cameras reached 8 megapixels. I just don't need more. I have printed 16x24 competition prints from 8 megapixels with no problem.

99.9% of my photos stay on my computer. Bigger images are just a waste of storage space. It's the same for everybody.

I'v printed 16 x 24 from an 8 MP compact and whilst yes it looked okish from a long distance away un close it clearly had some quite serious flaws and allowed for net to no processing.

Even shooting with a 18 MP Canon ASPC sensor I found prints that size had less than perfect resolution and a limated threshold for editing before noise damaged them.

The reality is I'd say that for most people resolution is something you either don't need much of at all or can always do with more of. If your not printing at all then really high ISO performance is all you should care about, either that or future 4K/8k digital display. If you are printing though you don't actually need to go very large at all before resolution becomes an issue.

Of course that's not just MP's but with similar sensor tech more megapixels will generally outperform uprezed megapixels. If you've got something like Sigma's foveon sensors then they can clearly beat say 24 MP ASPC rivals of course even at 15 MP.

Personally I think a lot of people underestimate just how much large printing goes on these days. The time of everyone getting 6x4 prints done is clearly over but printing large today is easy and cheaper than its ever been before.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
tko
tko
Forum ProPosts: 10,342
Like?
you having nightmares again?
In reply to phazelag, 8 months ago

1.) Who is most of us? Are you speaking for us?

2.) Megapixels has nothing to do with noise. An old myth that's having a hard time dying. Probably originated because people insist on looking at images 100%, and (duh) more MP = larger image = more visible noise. Solution? Look at images at the same final size.

3.) Who is this MP police? Never heard of them, never heard of them bothering anyone.

If you don't want MP, that's fine. It you want them, that's also fine.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
BertIverson
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,001Gear list
Like?
Panhose -- I guess you never do zoom photography ...
In reply to Pantyhose Bandit, 8 months ago

Pantyhose Bandit wrote:

99.9% of my photos stay on my computer. Bigger images are just a waste of storage space. It's the same for everybody.

Except that my 20MP camera, with a 200mm (35Eq) lens, takes great 5MP shots at 400mm (35Eq). In a pinch, I can even get 2.2MP at 600mm (35Eq). So I agree that 12 MP not necessary for 2MP monitor. Of course only low ISO shots can survive that kind of cropping.
For sensors with the same technology, it is a fiction that cameras with large MP count are noisier. Of course, if one is pixel peeping, the 1-pixel camera is the least noisy (as a previous poster mentioned).

Bert

 BertIverson's gear list:BertIverson's gear list
Sony RX100 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX10 +3 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Lee Jay
Forum ProPosts: 44,655Gear list
Like?
Re: Most of us are choosing less Megapixels but still hounded by MegaPixel Police!
In reply to phazelag, 8 months ago

phazelag wrote:

It would just be refreshing to be able to talk about MegaPixels without having to endure the onslaught of comments from people who assume you have never considered the value of less MegaPixels.

The main value of fewer pixels is smaller files to store and process.  The image quality arguments all go the other way (and yes, that includes noise).

-- hide signature --

Lee Jay

 Lee Jay's gear list:Lee Jay's gear list
Canon IXUS 310 HS Canon PowerShot SX260 HS Canon EOS 5D Canon EOS 20D Canon EOS 550D +23 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Lightpath48
Senior MemberPosts: 2,241Gear list
Like?
Application, application, application!
In reply to phazelag, 8 months ago

My (PSA) camera club at local, state and national levels requires that my online and projected images be reduced to a maximum of 1024 X 768 pixels - that's short of one megapixel! And yet, occasionally I've been asked to supply a file for a magazine page, calendar or gallery print. Then I would wish for lots of resolution. For me, the answer to your post lies in the intended applications.  300 pixels per inch for prints, 78 (or whatever your screen resolution) for monitor.

 Lightpath48's gear list:Lightpath48's gear list
Nikon D3300 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 55-200mm f/4-5.6G VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm f/1.8G Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G VR II
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads