Nikon D4 Assymetrical Problem Follow-up (February 2014)

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surrephoto
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Nikon D4 Assymetrical Problem Follow-up (February 2014)
6 months ago

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53013247

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/53021732

As some forumers may know, I have once again started to pursue a solution for the assymetrical AF (Left-AF Point) problem which has kept me busy with my Nikon D4 since June 2012.

I want to say that I still do respect forumers who may still not believe I have a genuine issue, but I also believe that we have come to a point to be able to acknowledge with a peace of mind that the problem is as real as that of the Nikon D800. However I do not see any reason for anyone to go on a pro-nikon and problemless-nikon crusade.

Today I had a new conversation which Mr Decward Chong of Nikon Malaysia as a follow-up to Nikon Malaysia's response to my facebook comments regarding to my problem which I posted start of this month. I have also emailed Mr Kimura Makoto of Nikon at the same time.

Summing up the conversation;

1. As Nikon Japan has checked the camera on several occasions & since it's within factory standards, there is nothing more Nikon Malaysia can do.

2. Since there is no clear direction on what further can be done, there is nothing more Nikon Malaysia can do.

3. For the case of the D800, there was a service advisory regarding the problem so Nikon Subsidaries worldwide are able to work on the problem.

As we are approaching the release of the D4S, I will have to gear up to more serious approaches to insist that the item (& many other D4) is clearly defective & Nikon is using a never-ending circular defense from ridding itself of crucial responsibilities to it's customer.

To sum it up, the Nikon way of handling customers;

Customer detects a problem or defect.
Nikon declares item to be within factory standard.
Nikon declares that they aren't able to do anything more since item is within factory standard.
Customer demands are deemed to be unreasonable.

Nikon D4 Nikon D800
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elliotn
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Re: Nikon D4 Assymetrical Problem Follow-up (February 2014)
In reply to surrephoto, 6 months ago

surrephoto wrote:

3. For the case of the D800, there was a service advisory regarding the problem so Nikon Subsidaries worldwide are able to work on the problem

I don't think that's true.

To sum it up, the Nikon way of handling customers;

Customer detects a problem or defect.
Nikon declares item to be within factory standard.
Nikon declares that they aren't able to do anything more since item is within factory standard.
Customer demands are deemed to be unreasonable.

That's a good summing up. Time to move on.

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Patrick McMahon
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Hardly seems fair
In reply to surrephoto, 6 months ago

surrephoto wrote:

However I do not see any reason for anyone to go on a pro-nikon and problemless-nikon crusade.

One of the things that many of us are surprised by is the lengths Nikon went to in the attempt to satisfy your problem- without "fixing" it. Honoring an out of  country warranty, sending it out multiple times, giving you a loaner... Etc. ad naseum... And still it persisted.

What I do find strange is that you are an extraordinarily busy professional and people have asked for you to contribute real life photos where it has affected the image- to no avail. There was a six month point in time where you were so busy you could not even correspond with Nikon!

I am not saying you should be happy with your D4. But clearly you are in a much better position than an amateur. The camera has helped earn you a lot of cash, even if it did suffer from this issue. It would seem to make walking away a lot easier? I know you have had problems with other companies as well, but consider a change if Nikon has left such a bad taste in your mouth.

You seem to have become consumed by this battle, and as a pro who's camera is paid for why not walk away?

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T O Shooter
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Re: Nikon D4 Assymetrical Problem Follow-up (February 2014)
In reply to surrephoto, 6 months ago

Yes it's time to walk away.  If the D4 is within tolerances, you can sell it with a clear conscious.  The problem is that AF has not evolved yet to the level you want. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it.  I shoot BIF. I'd like for the AF to lock on like radar, but unfortunately it hasn't evolved that far either.

Buy something else; D4S or the Canon equivalent.

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surrephoto
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Re: Nikon D4 Assymetrical Problem Follow-up (February 2014)
In reply to T O Shooter, 6 months ago

T O Shooter wrote:

Yes it's time to walk away. If the D4 is within tolerances, you can sell it with a clear conscious. The problem is that AF has not evolved yet to the level you want. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. I shoot BIF. I'd like for the AF to lock on like radar, but unfortunately it hasn't evolved that far either.

Buy something else; D4S or the Canon equivalent.

-- hide signature --

Photography - I do it for passion, not for a buck! It's just better that way.

Heres the problem, the issue is that the camera is defective & does not reflect the true capabilities of the CAM3500 chip. I feel I am being maligned at several junctures for having a higher expectation than what people feel should be acceptable.

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surrephoto
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Re: Nikon D4 Assymetrical Problem Follow-up (February 2014)
In reply to elliotn, 6 months ago

elliotn wrote:

surrephoto wrote:

  1. For the case of the D800, there was a service advisory regarding the problem so Nikon Subsidaries worldwide are able to work on the problem

I don't think that's true.

To sum it up, the Nikon way of handling customers;

*Customer detects a problem or defect*.
*Nikon declares item to be within factory standard*.
*Nikon declares that they aren't able to do anything more since item is within factory standard*.
*Customer demands are deemed to be unreasonable*.

That's a good summing up. Time to move on.

I cannot say for certain, but im quite sure there was an internal advisory to the service centres, along with new software, tests charts & procedures to "improve" or "enhance" the D800 to "customer satisfaction levels".

Blatant denial if you ask me.

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elliotn
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Re: Nikon D4 Assymetrical Problem Follow-up (February 2014)
In reply to surrephoto, 6 months ago

surrephoto wrote:

T O Shooter wrote:

Yes it's time to walk away. If the D4 is within tolerances, you can sell it with a clear conscious. The problem is that AF has not evolved yet to the level you want. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. I shoot BIF. I'd like for the AF to lock on like radar, but unfortunately it hasn't evolved that far either.

Buy something else; D4S or the Canon equivalent.

-- hide signature --

Photography - I do it for passion, not for a buck! It's just better that way.

Heres the problem, the issue is that the camera is defective & does not reflect the true capabilities of the CAM3500 chip. I feel I am being maligned at several junctures for having a higher expectation than what people feel should be acceptable.

Do you have any evidence of 'the true capabilities of the CAM3500 chip'?

Didn't you say in a previous thread that several D4 loaners you tested exhibited the same problem?

I've tested two D800s and two D800Es and they all have the left AF issue.

I've sent cameras to Nikon four times and they have never been able to fix the problem.

It's just the way it is.

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elliotn
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Re: Nikon D4 Assymetrical Problem Follow-up (February 2014)
In reply to surrephoto, 6 months ago

surrephoto wrote:

elliotn wrote:

surrephoto wrote:

  1. For the case of the D800, there was a service advisory regarding the problem so Nikon Subsidaries worldwide are able to work on the problem

I don't think that's true.

To sum it up, the Nikon way of handling customers;

*Customer detects a problem or defect*.
*Nikon declares item to be within factory standard*.
*Nikon declares that they aren't able to do anything more since item is within factory standard*.
*Customer demands are deemed to be unreasonable*.

That's a good summing up. Time to move on.

I cannot say for certain, but im quite sure there was an internal advisory to the service centres, along with new software, tests charts & procedures to "improve" or "enhance" the D800 to "customer satisfaction levels".

There is no internal advisory. There is no new software, no test charts, no new procedures. This is all fantasy generated by online forums (this one, in particular).

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nikonjohn
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Elliotn - I don't know whether there was new software, ect. but Nikon
In reply to elliotn, 6 months ago

did acknowledge that there was a focus issue with my D800 and actually referred me to focus chart test shots they took using the different focus points to show that the AF for my D800 had been properly adjusted and was now "within specifications".  I don't know how they handled it with other customers but that is how they handled it with me on my third try at getting the AF calibrated properly.

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surrephoto
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Re: Nikon D4 Assymetrical Problem Follow-up (February 2014)
In reply to elliotn, 6 months ago

elliotn wrote:

surrephoto wrote:

elliotn wrote:

surrephoto wrote:

  1. For the case of the D800, there was a service advisory regarding the problem so Nikon Subsidaries worldwide are able to work on the problem

I don't think that's true.

To sum it up, the Nikon way of handling customers;

*_Customer detects a problem or defect_*.
*_Nikon declares item to be within factory standard_*.
*_Nikon declares that they aren't able to do anything more since item is within factory standard_*.
*_Customer demands are deemed to be unreasonable_*.

That's a good summing up. Time to move on.

I cannot say for certain, but im quite sure there was an internal advisory to the service centres, along with new software, tests charts & procedures to "improve" or "enhance" the D800 to "customer satisfaction levels".

There is no internal advisory. There is no new software, no test charts, no new procedures. This is all fantasy generated by online forums (this one, in particular).

You have to be very sure or not make such a claim. It really sounds like u are out to prevent the dissemination of the issue and solutions related to the Nikon D800/D4 asymmetrical AF problem.

Now i have become suspicious about you Elliot.

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elliotn
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Re: Nikon D4 Assymetrical Problem Follow-up (February 2014)
In reply to surrephoto, 6 months ago

surrephoto wrote:

elliotn wrote:

surrephoto wrote:

elliotn wrote:

surrephoto wrote:

  1. For the case of the D800, there was a service advisory regarding the problem so Nikon Subsidaries worldwide are able to work on the problem

I don't think that's true.

To sum it up, the Nikon way of handling customers;

*_Customer detects a problem or defect_*.
*_Nikon declares item to be within factory standard_*.
*_Nikon declares that they aren't able to do anything more since item is within factory standard_*.
*_Customer demands are deemed to be unreasonable_*.

That's a good summing up. Time to move on.

I cannot say for certain, but im quite sure there was an internal advisory to the service centres, along with new software, tests charts & procedures to "improve" or "enhance" the D800 to "customer satisfaction levels".

There is no internal advisory. There is no new software, no test charts, no new procedures. This is all fantasy generated by online forums (this one, in particular).

You have to be very sure or not make such a claim. It really sounds like u are out to prevent the dissemination of the issue and solutions related to the Nikon D800/D4 asymmetrical AF problem.

Now i have become suspicious about you Elliot.

We should all be suspicious of each other on a forum like this one. Truth is Nikon Service Centres are black boxes and none of us really know what's going on.

The only reason I claim that there's no advisory / special procedure for fine-tuning the D800, is because I've been sending my D800 back and forth to a Nikon Service Centre, and they've seemed totally unable to resolve the Left AF problem.

Until now, that is. I just picked up my current D800 body from Nikon, after it's third trip to the Service Centre. To my surprise quick tests suggest that they might have finally fixed it. Liveview and PDAF seem to match for both left and centre AF sensors. The daylight has gone now - I'll do some more thorough tests tomorrow and report back.

If they have fixed it, I apologise. I was wrong and there obviously is a special procedure. The question then is how to invoke it.

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elliotn
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Re: Elliotn - I don't know whether there was new software, ect. but Nikon
In reply to nikonjohn, 6 months ago

nikonjohn wrote:

did acknowledge that there was a focus issue with my D800 and actually referred me to focus chart test shots they took using the different focus points to show that the AF for my D800 had been properly adjusted and was now "within specifications". I don't know how they handled it with other customers but that is how they handled it with me on my third try at getting the AF calibrated properly.

Well what do you know! I just picked up my D800 after its third trip to the Service Centre. Like you, I was shown 3 print-outs of their test charts (showing the performance of the left, middle and right sensors). These were shot with a 50mm lens so I was somewhat suspicious, but I've just run some quick tests with my 28/1.8G and at first glance the problem seems to be fixed.

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T O Shooter
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Re: Nikon D4 Assymetrical Problem Follow-up (February 2014)
In reply to surrephoto, 6 months ago

surrephoto wrote:

T O Shooter wrote:

Yes it's time to walk away. If the D4 is within tolerances, you can sell it with a clear conscious. The problem is that AF has not evolved yet to the level you want. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. I shoot BIF. I'd like for the AF to lock on like radar, but unfortunately it hasn't evolved that far either.

Buy something else; D4S or the Canon equivalent.

-- hide signature --

Photography - I do it for passion, not for a buck! It's just better that way.

Heres the problem, the issue is that the camera is defective & does not reflect the true capabilities of the CAM3500 chip. I feel I am being maligned at several junctures for having a higher expectation than what people feel should be acceptable.

Thay may be and I feel your pain on this, but at this point you're kicking a dead horse. Let it go, suck up the loss, and buy a D4S.

-- hide signature --

Photography - I do it for passion, not for a buck! It's just better that way.

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surrephoto
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I will not give in, nor will I suck up the loss & allow Nikon to have their way this time round
In reply to T O Shooter, 6 months ago

T O Shooter wrote:

surrephoto wrote:

T O Shooter wrote:

Yes it's time to walk away. If the D4 is within tolerances, you can sell it with a clear conscious. The problem is that AF has not evolved yet to the level you want. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. I shoot BIF. I'd like for the AF to lock on like radar, but unfortunately it hasn't evolved that far either.

Buy something else; D4S or the Canon equivalent.

-- hide signature --

Photography - I do it for passion, not for a buck! It's just better that way.

Heres the problem, the issue is that the camera is defective & does not reflect the true capabilities of the CAM3500 chip. I feel I am being maligned at several junctures for having a higher expectation than what people feel should be acceptable.

Thay may be and I feel your pain on this, but at this point you're kicking a dead horse. Let it go, suck up the loss, and buy a D4S.

-- hide signature --

Photography - I do it for passion, not for a buck! It's just better that way.

I'm sorry to say this, but I will not suck up the loss & will not buy a D4S until Nikon replaces my D4 or fixes it.

I am planning to maintain my stance and continue to be persistent till the day they budge.

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Robin Casady
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Re: I will not give in, nor will I suck up the loss & allow Nikon to have their way this time round
In reply to surrephoto, 6 months ago

surrephoto wrote:

T O Shooter wrote:

surrephoto wrote:

T O Shooter wrote:

Yes it's time to walk away. If the D4 is within tolerances, you can sell it with a clear conscious. The problem is that AF has not evolved yet to the level you want. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. I shoot BIF. I'd like for the AF to lock on like radar, but unfortunately it hasn't evolved that far either.

Buy something else; D4S or the Canon equivalent.

-- hide signature --

Photography - I do it for passion, not for a buck! It's just better that way.

Heres the problem, the issue is that the camera is defective & does not reflect the true capabilities of the CAM3500 chip. I feel I am being maligned at several junctures for having a higher expectation than what people feel should be acceptable.

Thay may be and I feel your pain on this, but at this point you're kicking a dead horse. Let it go, suck up the loss, and buy a D4S.

-- hide signature --

Photography - I do it for passion, not for a buck! It's just better that way.

I'm sorry to say this, but I will not suck up the loss & will not buy a D4S until Nikon replaces my D4 or fixes it.

I am planning to maintain my stance and continue to be persistent till the day they budge.

...or take legal action against you. If Nikon says it is within specs. there is nothing they are going to do to fix a problem they don't see. You are either expecting capabilities that the current technology cannot provide, your testing methods are flawed. The idea that Nikon could fix your camera, but chooses to lie about it instead, does not seem credible.

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coronawithlime
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Re: Nikon D4 Assymetrical Problem Follow-up (February 2014)
In reply to surrephoto, 6 months ago

Fellows, it's time to write this one off and move on

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Canadianguy
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Re: I will not give in, nor will I suck up the loss & allow Nikon to have their way this time round
In reply to surrephoto, 6 months ago

Let me see if I have this correct:

You have been using a defective camera since June 2012 and delivering sub-par images to your clients while collecting full payment from them?

Isn’t this like someone at a restaurant who complaints about the food after eating the whole plate and asking for a full refund? If you don’t like something after the first bite – stop eating it and ask them to redo it or order something else – don’t keep eating it.

If I have a piece of equipment that was required for me to deliver my end product and it was not working properly – I would stop using it as I don’t want my end product to be affected and have upset clients.

Do you have upset clients, do you have clients complaining about un-sharp images? If not – good for you and please keep producing great work for your clients and please stop complaining.

If you have upset clients, please switch to a camera that can deliver great products for your clients and sue Nikon for any lost income from your upset clients.

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surrephoto
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Re: I will not give in, nor will I suck up the loss & allow Nikon to have their way this time round
In reply to Canadianguy, 6 months ago

Canadianguy wrote:

Let me see if I have this correct:

You have been using a defective camera since June 2012 and delivering sub-par images to your clients while collecting full payment from them?

Isn’t this like someone at a restaurant who complaints about the food after eating the whole plate and asking for a full refund? If you don’t like something after the first bite – stop eating it and ask them to redo it or order something else – don’t keep eating it.

If I have a piece of equipment that was required for me to deliver my end product and it was not working properly – I would stop using it as I don’t want my end product to be affected and have upset clients.

Do you have upset clients, do you have clients complaining about un-sharp images? If not – good for you and please keep producing great work for your clients and please stop complaining.

If you have upset clients, please switch to a camera that can deliver great products for your clients and sue Nikon for any lost income from your upset clients.

I have explained all this in previous threads.

I like many other users, are forced to continue to use the camera using mainly the focusing points in the centre. The camera still works fine if you are not using the autofocus points on the left field.

I have asked for a refund or exchange since July 2012. I has never been fulfilled.

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nikonjohn
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Elliotn - Interesting. Since I was dealing with their Melwood facility
In reply to elliotn, 6 months ago

they posted back to me through their Nikon site.  The test chart pictures are not available any more but that was over 15 months ago.  I'm surprised that 15 months later they are having any trouble calibrating the AF on a D800 or that it would take multiple trips back to get it calibrated right but I guess that is just the way things are.  Nevertheless, I'm glad to hear that they finally got it resolved for you.  I'm not sure that the AF calibration they did on my D800 is absolutely perfect but my camera focuses pretty reliably out on the wings and after screwing up the center points, they are back to focusing accurately so I guess that is about as good as it will get.

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T O Shooter
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Sorry to say, sort of
In reply to surrephoto, 6 months ago

surrephoto wrote:

T O Shooter wrote:

surrephoto wrote:

T O Shooter wrote:

Yes it's time to walk away. If the D4 is within tolerances, you can sell it with a clear conscious. The problem is that AF has not evolved yet to the level you want. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. I shoot BIF. I'd like for the AF to lock on like radar, but unfortunately it hasn't evolved that far either.

Buy something else; D4S or the Canon equivalent.

-- hide signature --

Photography - I do it for passion, not for a buck! It's just better that way.

Heres the problem, the issue is that the camera is defective & does not reflect the true capabilities of the CAM3500 chip. I feel I am being maligned at several junctures for having a higher expectation than what people feel should be acceptable.

Thay may be and I feel your pain on this, but at this point you're kicking a dead horse. Let it go, suck up the loss, and buy a D4S.

-- hide signature --

Photography - I do it for passion, not for a buck! It's just better that way.

I'm sorry to say this, but I will not suck up the loss & will not buy a D4S until Nikon replaces my D4 or fixes it.

I am planning to maintain my stance and continue to be persistent till the day they budge.

but at this point I'm ready to chip in to Nikon to pay THEIR legal fees.  At this point, you're just being utterly foolish. Is this never giving in a cultural thing, or just you???

-- hide signature --

Photography - I do it for passion, not for a buck! It's just better that way.

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