why give up OVF with MirrorLess camera like Nex

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
neil holmes
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,190
Like?
Re: why give up OVF with MirrorLess camera like Nex
In reply to neil holmes, 8 months ago

neil holmes wrote:

eazizisaid wrote:

Because it's a mirrorless camera : MIRRORLESS. There's no mirror, so technically you can't get an OVF since there's no mirror that will reflect what the lens see

Then how does the MIRRORLESS Fuji Xpro1 (with hybrid EVF/OVF) work?

That was a rhetorical question.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
pew pew
Contributing MemberPosts: 626Gear list
Like?
Re: why give up OVF with MirrorLess camera like Nex
In reply to clearzoom, 8 months ago

clearzoom wrote:

eazizisaid wrote:

Because it's a mirrorless camera : MIRRORLESS. There's no mirror, so technically you can't get an OVF since there's no mirror that will reflect what the lens see

right, I knew that, but why do we spend $1000s and get mirror less camera without an OVF

The camera needs a mirror to have Ovf, if it have a mirror the camera needs to be bigger.

Why because the cameras are smaller, and its a lot easier to focus with peaking and extended zoom in a EVF, with ovf you don´t have that.

 pew pew's gear list:pew pew's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-3N Canon EOS 100D
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
SimonOL
Contributing MemberPosts: 850Gear list
Like?
Re: Y-E-S: I do miss it dearly :(
In reply to jpr2, 8 months ago

jpr2 wrote:

clearzoom wrote:

Chad Hardy wrote:

What do you think you are missing when you use an EVF? The refresh rate is so good these days you really don't have any lag.

well. optical is sooo clear, even when EVF is best in Nex 7, it is still electronic though

after the immediacy of experience from a long stretch of TLRs, MF, various film EOS'es, and the several digitals, like 40d, 5d2, 7d... all giving that very rich view full of nuances = a sun drenched scene, and yet with lots of details in both highlights and shadows.

And even when a passing bird casts its silhouette across grass the OVF is still quick enough to render it - never experienced anything like this (or even any loosely-close approximation of it) in an EVF !!

jpr2

Nice! Almost poetic.

The EVF in my NEX-7 does lack some dynamic range and it's not so good if you don't position your eye at just the right angle, but I think the positives outweigh the negatives for me. It's useful to have MF assist, peaking, histogram etc available with the EVF which wouldn't be possible with an OVF.

I'm looking forward to seeing if the latest EVF in the A6000 is any better; lower res, better optics and refresh rate (apparently) but no claims about DR that I've seen.

I don't think it is physically possible to have a TTL OVF with a mirrorless camera, so EVF is here to stay if you use a MILC.

 SimonOL's gear list:SimonOL's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-7 Sony E 18-55mm F3.5-5.6 OSS Sony E 16mm F2.8 Pancake Sony E 50mm F1.8 OSS Sigma 19mm F2.8 EX DN +3 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
zackiedawg
Forum ProPosts: 21,874Gear list
Like?
Why give up a back seat and trunk to have a pickup bed?
In reply to clearzoom, 8 months ago

Draw any other comparison you want - it comes down to the fact that they are two different tools, available to you, to be chosen for your needs.  Whichever will work best for your needs, that's the one you get.  If you find BOTH have a real function in your life, then assuming you can afford to, you have BOTH types of camera.  Just as some people may own a truck or sport utility vehicle for one purpose, and a sedan for another.  There are things an OVF does better, and things it doesn't...and vice versa.  Just as there are things a truck can do better than a car, and vice versa.  There's a lot of crossover between them too - many things that a car or truck can do equally well...just like EVFs and OVFs.

I personally do not miss an OVF...because I have one.  And I enjoy EVF just fine, because I have one of those too.  I bought into the NEX line because it fulfilled the goal I set for it: have a second body which is much smaller and lighter than my DSLR, that can stand in for it when I want to travel lighter, or ride along as a lightweight second body with a different focal length - and do so without losing image quality and having the same large sensor and lens interchangeability for maximum flexibility.  I very much prefer viewfinders to LCD screens, so I accept that an EVF is the only solution that can be used with a mirrorless camera that can achieve a through-the-lens view...so while I have certain reasons I love OVFs and prefer them for some types of shooting, I fully accept EVF as a viable second solution, and have since learned that it has a few advantages compared to OVFs, and a few disadvantages I already expected.  I've easily learned to adapt to each one, and use them interchangeably.

-- hide signature --

Justin
galleries: www.pbase.com/zackiedawg

 zackiedawg's gear list:zackiedawg's gear list
Sony Alpha DSLR-A580 Sony Alpha NEX-5N Sony a6000 Sony E 18-55mm F3.5-5.6 OSS Sony E 16mm F2.8 Pancake +24 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
neil holmes
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,190
Like?
Re: Y-E-S: I do miss it dearly :(
In reply to SimonOL, 8 months ago

SimonOL wrote:

jpr2 wrote:

clearzoom wrote:

Chad Hardy wrote:

What do you think you are missing when you use an EVF? The refresh rate is so good these days you really don't have any lag.

well. optical is sooo clear, even when EVF is best in Nex 7, it is still electronic though

after the immediacy of experience from a long stretch of TLRs, MF, various film EOS'es, and the several digitals, like 40d, 5d2, 7d... all giving that very rich view full of nuances = a sun drenched scene, and yet with lots of details in both highlights and shadows.

And even when a passing bird casts its silhouette across grass the OVF is still quick enough to render it - never experienced anything like this (or even any loosely-close approximation of it) in an EVF !!

jpr2

Nice! Almost poetic.

The EVF in my NEX-7 does lack some dynamic range and it's not so good if you don't position your eye at just the right angle, but I think the positives outweigh the negatives for me. It's useful to have MF assist, peaking, histogram etc available with the EVF which wouldn't be possible with an OVF.

I'm looking forward to seeing if the latest EVF in the A6000 is any better; lower res, better optics and refresh rate (apparently) but no claims about DR that I've seen.

I don't think it is physically possible to have a TTL OVF with a mirrorless camera, so EVF is here to stay if you use a MILC.

It would always be POSSIBLE (could have a sensor flipping instead of a mirror) but why would you....I already think the best EVF's are far better than the best OVF's and they are just going to get better and better.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Chad Hardy
Senior MemberPosts: 1,182Gear list
Like?
Re: Y-E-S: I do miss it dearly :(
In reply to jpr2, 8 months ago

jpr2 wrote:

clearzoom wrote:

Chad Hardy wrote:

What do you think you are missing when you use an EVF? The refresh rate is so good these days you really don't have any lag.

well. optical is sooo clear, even when EVF is best in Nex 7, it is still electronic though

after the immediacy of experience from a long stretch of TLRs, MF, various film EOS'es, and the several digitals, like 40d, 5d2, 7d... all giving that very rich view full of nuances = a sun drenched scene, and yet with lots of details in both highlights and shadows.

And even when a passing bird casts its silhouette across grass the OVF is still quick enough to render it - never experienced anything like this (or even any loosely-close approximation of it) in an EVF !!

jpr2

Great points, I just can't get past the fact that what I see in the OVF is not what my picture is going to actually look like based on camera parameters.  I would rather see the real output before shooting it.  Just personal preference, I understand.

 Chad Hardy's gear list:Chad Hardy's gear list
Olympus E-M1 Sony Alpha 7R Fujifilm X-T1 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX100 III Fujifilm X-E2 +16 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
socode
Regular MemberPosts: 355
Like?
Re: why give up OVF with MirrorLess camera like Nex
In reply to notime, 8 months ago

notime wrote:

eazizisaid wrote:

Because it's a mirrorless camera : MIRRORLESS. There's no mirror, so technically you can't get an OVF since there's no mirror that will reflect what the lens see

Then how does the MIRRORLESS Fuji Xpro1 (with hybrid EVF/OVF) work?

2 lenses. 1 small fixed lens in the body, and a seperate, changeable lens for the sensor

TTWL. Through The Wrong Lens.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
viking79
Forum ProPosts: 13,550Gear list
Like?
Disable image review... (more)
In reply to clearzoom, 8 months ago

What helped me with EVF cameras is disable image review. It is highly distracting and increases blackout time.

Need a camera that only sends review image to rear monitor but still allows live viewfinder feed.

Most live view cameras with image review disabled are much more usable. You generally don't need review images anyway since you know exactly what your final image will look like from the EVF (a good EVF should be WYSIWYG), with the exception of flash. In those cases review every 5 or 10 images to make sure your exposure is still close.

Eric

 viking79's gear list:viking79's gear list
Sony Alpha 7R Samsung NX30 Samsung NX 30mm F2 Pancake Samsung NX 85mm F1.4 ED SSA Samsung NX 60mm F2.8 Macro ED OIS SSA +5 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
SQLGuy
Senior MemberPosts: 2,769Gear list
Like?
Re: Disable image review... (more)
In reply to viking79, 8 months ago

I've recently been shooting film for a class. I find it funny how often I've tried to zoom the OVF image while focusing.

I can see areas where OVFs beat EVFs. They certainly consume less power. But I think that once you get beyond habits and what you're used to, EVFs, for mirrorless cameras, are so much better overall than OVFs that Sony didn't find it practical to add an OVF or a hybrid OVF. A plain OVF would probably have appealed to less people than it disappointed, and a hybrid would probably have brought in less additional customers than would be needed to justify the added cost.

If you really want an OVF for composition (not focusing), you can buy rangefinder viewfinders from Leica or Voigtlander and attach them to the hot shoe on NEX-6, A6000, A7, etc cameras that have the MI shoe. You can also get a cold shoe add-on for older NEX cameras and attach an OVF there.

-- hide signature --

A7 with kit lens and a number of legacy lenses (mostly Canon FD)

 SQLGuy's gear list:SQLGuy's gear list
Canon PowerShot G9 Nikon D200 A3000 Sony Alpha 7 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm f/1.8G
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Chad Hardy
Senior MemberPosts: 1,182Gear list
Like?
Re: Disable image review... (more)
In reply to SQLGuy, 8 months ago

I've recently been shooting film for a class. I find it funny how often I've tried to zoom the OVF image while focusing.

I can see areas where OVFs beat EVFs. They certainly consume less power. But I think that once you get beyond habits and what you're used to, EVFs, for mirrorless cameras, are so much better overall than OVFs that Sony didn't find it practical to add an OVF or a hybrid OVF. A plain OVF would probably have appealed to less people than it disappointed, and a hybrid would probably have brought in less additional customers than would be needed to justify the added cost.

If you really want an OVF for composition (not focusing), you can buy rangefinder viewfinders from Leica or Voigtlander and attach them to the hot shoe on NEX-6, A6000, A7, etc cameras that have the MI shoe. You can also get a cold shoe add-on for older NEX cameras and attach an OVF there.

-- hide signature --

A7 with kit lens and a number of legacy lenses (mostly Canon FD)

I may try mounting a rifle scope on mine. See how I fare at street photography!!

 Chad Hardy's gear list:Chad Hardy's gear list
Olympus E-M1 Sony Alpha 7R Fujifilm X-T1 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX100 III Fujifilm X-E2 +16 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
SQLGuy
Senior MemberPosts: 2,769Gear list
Like?
Re: Disable image review... (more)
In reply to Chad Hardy, 8 months ago

Chad Hardy wrote:

If you really want an OVF for composition (not focusing), you can buy rangefinder viewfinders from Leica or Voigtlander and attach them to the hot shoe on NEX-6, A6000, A7, etc cameras that have the MI shoe. You can also get a cold shoe add-on for older NEX cameras and attach an OVF there.

-- hide signature --

A7 with kit lens and a number of legacy lenses (mostly Canon FD)

I may try mounting a rifle scope on mine. See how I fare at street photography!!

Sure, but you'll need to draw in your own frame lines.

Or, how about something like this: http://www.gearjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=935

?

-- hide signature --

A7 with kit lens and a number of legacy lenses (mostly Canon FD)

 SQLGuy's gear list:SQLGuy's gear list
Canon PowerShot G9 Nikon D200 A3000 Sony Alpha 7 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm f/1.8G
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
EinsteinsGhost
Forum ProPosts: 11,522Gear list
Like?
Re: Disable image review... (more)
In reply to Chad Hardy, 8 months ago

I've recently been shooting film for a class. I find it funny how often I've tried to zoom the OVF image while focusing.

I can see areas where OVFs beat EVFs. They certainly consume less power. But I think that once you get beyond habits and what you're used to, EVFs, for mirrorless cameras, are so much better overall than OVFs that Sony didn't find it practical to add an OVF or a hybrid OVF. A plain OVF would probably have appealed to less people than it disappointed, and a hybrid would probably have brought in less additional customers than would be needed to justify the added cost.

If you really want an OVF for composition (not focusing), you can buy rangefinder viewfinders from Leica or Voigtlander and attach them to the hot shoe on NEX-6, A6000, A7, etc cameras that have the MI shoe. You can also get a cold shoe add-on for older NEX cameras and attach an OVF there.

-- hide signature --

A7 with kit lens and a number of legacy lenses (mostly Canon FD)

I may try mounting a rifle scope on mine. See how I fare at street photography!!

Likely better than if Sony had continued with hologram grid pattern for AF assist as in my good old F828.

 EinsteinsGhost's gear list:EinsteinsGhost's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-F828 Sony SLT-A55 Sony Alpha NEX-6 Sigma 18-250mm F3.5-6.3 DC OS HSM Sony 135mm F2.8 (T4.5) STF +12 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
PeteC21
Contributing MemberPosts: 542Gear list
Like?
Re: Why give up a back seat and trunk to have a pickup bed?
In reply to zackiedawg, 8 months ago

Well said, +1

-- hide signature --

“The single most important component of a camera is the twelve inches behind it!” Ansel Adams

 PeteC21's gear list:PeteC21's gear list
Sony Alpha NEX-5N Sony SLT-A77 Sony a6000 Sony 70-400mm F4-5.6 G SSM Tokina AT-X Pro 11-16mm f/2.8 DX +11 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
abortabort
Contributing MemberPosts: 983Gear list
Like?
Re: why give up OVF with MirrorLess camera like Nex
In reply to clearzoom, 8 months ago

Why give up a rangefinder for an SLR? SLR doesn't show infinity view like a RF and I can't see the parralax correction, nor can I see 'outside the frame', I can't change my frame lines and when using telephoto or wide angle lenses I don't get to use my turret finders. My scene is all blurry until I focus, so I have to be in focus before I can see what I am shooting and when I stop down the viewfinder goes all dark!

I don't know why anyone woukd give up their rangefinder to 'see through the lens'

 abortabort's gear list:abortabort's gear list
Sony RX100 Ricoh GR Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX10 Konica Minolta Maxxum 7D Sony Alpha DSLR-A850 +32 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Dennis
Forum ProPosts: 13,785
Like?
Re: why give up OVF with MirrorLess camera like Nex
In reply to clearzoom, 8 months ago

clearzoom wrote:

I want to make sure am I the only one or others feel way using Mirror less?

EVF is a funny technology. If you look at digital versus film, most people made the transition and never really missed film. A few are nostalgic, some still use it, many are happy to be rid of it, but most just transitioned over and never looked back.

With EVF versus OVF, I think it's much more of a compromise and once you've used both, you see the benefits in each. Personally, I don't care for looking at an EVF. I've tried EVFs from the Sony A33 to the NEX-6 and NEX-7, the Olympus EM1, the Fuji XE1, the Sony A7, and I find them disconcerting, ignoring any issues of lag, "night blindness", dynamic range, etc.

But they bring with them the technical benefits of mirrorless (AF accuracy, lack of shutter vibration & noise) as well as live view (previsualization of exposure, white balance) and on-screen displays (the feature I miss most is the level). When I switched from Sony to Nikon after trying the A77 2+ years ago, it wasn't because of the EVF. I do prefer the OVF in a DSLR, but would have been content with the EVF. I expect that at some point in the future, I will be using a Nikon F mount camera with an EVF.

Lot of folks seem to love Nex6, 7, A7, A7R and dont miss the OVF?

I'm sure that's true; lots don't miss the OVF. And I'm sure many will miss it, but decide that it's a worthwhile tradeoff.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
NowHearThis
Senior MemberPosts: 2,301Gear list
Like?
Canon made me do it.
In reply to clearzoom, 8 months ago

clearzoom wrote:

My gears

Nex F3 with these 4 lens - sel1855, sel16mm28, sel50mm18, sel55210

CanonT3i - with 55-250mm, tamron 17-55mm F28

I do use and Love my Nex F3, but ONLY thing I miss in Nex is the OVF.

I even tried Nex6 with EVF, but wasnt happy with EVF, as it is electronic and cant be Optical view finder

so I use T3i when I miss OVF

The Canon I use to own is the sole reason why I will never buy another camera with an optical viewfinder.  I had a T2i and the metering system sucked!.  In any metering mode it was still to reliant on the AF point.  Changing to Center weighted only offered a minor improvement.  My Nikon D40 was almost perfect.  For my tastes, I just set the EV at -0.3 and left it alone.  Oh the oher thing than ticked me off was that the meter locked when you half pressed the shutter release button.  My lowly D40 did not, I could focus, recompose and the meter would reevaulate.  Needless to say it would sometimes take me 2 or 3 shots, (ore more) to sometimes get the shot right.

When I got my NEX7, the EVF changed my whole world.  First the metering system was as good as my D40 or any Nikon I've used (which is many) and if I ever felt like I wanted to adjust Exposure Compensation, I could do it while looking through the viewfinder, see the change, take the photo and it was always what I wanted when I looked at them later on my computer.

Since purchasing my NEX 7 (and now my A65), I like that I get to see a live histogram, see WB, color parameter changes, etc, etc, etc.  For me, and what I do, I like the EVFs better.

I want to make sure am I the only one or others feel way using Mirror less?

Lot of folks seem to love Nex6, 7, A7, A7R and dont miss the OVF?

I will never use one again.  Ever.  Thanks Canon.

.

[In fairness to Canon, the 7D I tried does have a much better Meter inside it.  But I'll still stick with my EVFs.]

-- hide signature --

NHT
while ( ! ( succeed = try() ) );

 NowHearThis's gear list:NowHearThis's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M10 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 14-42mm 1:3.5-5.6 II R
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Jerry R
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,845
Like?
Sony makes an OVF for the 16mm lens. I have used it with the 24mm lens.
In reply to clearzoom, 8 months ago
-- hide signature --

Canon A2E, Sony R1, Panny TZ5, NEX C3 & 5R + Zeiss 24mm E Lens, Nikon D5100

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
cosmonaut
Senior MemberPosts: 1,903Gear list
Like?
Re: why give up OVF with MirrorLess camera like Nex
In reply to clearzoom, 8 months ago

I don't miss the OVF. I still shoot film sometimes and use OVFers but I don't care to have one on my main camera.

-- hide signature --

www.gregmccary.com

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
NomadMark
Regular MemberPosts: 457Gear list
Like?
Re: Canon made me do it.
In reply to NowHearThis, 8 months ago

NowHearThis wrote:

clearzoom wrote:

My gears

Nex F3 with these 4 lens - sel1855, sel16mm28, sel50mm18, sel55210

CanonT3i - with 55-250mm, tamron 17-55mm F28

I do use and Love my Nex F3, but ONLY thing I miss in Nex is the OVF.

I even tried Nex6 with EVF, but wasnt happy with EVF, as it is electronic and cant be Optical view finder

so I use T3i when I miss OVF

The Canon I use to own is the sole reason why I will never buy another camera with an optical viewfinder. I had a T2i and the metering system sucked!. In any metering mode it was still to reliant on the AF point. Changing to Center weighted only offered a minor improvement. My Nikon D40 was almost perfect. For my tastes, I just set the EV at -0.3 and left it alone. Oh the oher thing than ticked me off was that the meter locked when you half pressed the shutter release button. My lowly D40 did not, I could focus, recompose and the meter would reevaulate. Needless to say it would sometimes take me 2 or 3 shots, (ore more) to sometimes get the shot right.

When I got my NEX7, the EVF changed my whole world. First the metering system was as good as my D40 or any Nikon I've used (which is many) and if I ever felt like I wanted to adjust Exposure Compensation, I could do it while looking through the viewfinder, see the change, take the photo and it was always what I wanted when I looked at them later on my computer.

Since purchasing my NEX 7 (and now my A65), I like that I get to see a live histogram, see WB, color parameter changes, etc, etc, etc. For me, and what I do, I like the EVFs better.

I want to make sure am I the only one or others feel way using Mirror less?

Lot of folks seem to love Nex6, 7, A7, A7R and dont miss the OVF?

I will never use one again. Ever. Thanks Canon.

.

[In fairness to Canon, the 7D I tried does have a much better Meter inside it. But I'll still stick with my EVFs.]

-- hide signature --

NHT
while ( ! ( succeed = try() ) );

Nothing wrong with Canon's metering system. Not even in my old XSi. You just need to learn to work with it.

And you can decouple the exposure lock and your shutter button, FYI. There are a ton of custom functions in Canon cameras to help you set it up how you would like!

 NomadMark's gear list:NomadMark's gear list
Sony RX1R Sony Alpha 7R Canon EF 50mm f/1.2L USM Canon EF 400mm f/5.6L USM Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM +7 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
abortabort
Contributing MemberPosts: 983Gear list
Like?
Re: why give up OVF with MirrorLess camera like Nex
In reply to Dennis, 8 months ago

clearzoom wrote:

I want to make sure am I the only one or others feel way using Mirror less?

EVF is a funny technology. If you look at digital versus film, most people made the transition and never really missed film. A few are nostalgic, some still use it, many are happy to be rid of it, but most just transitioned over and never looked back.

With EVF versus OVF, I think it's much more of a compromise and once you've used both, you see the benefits in each. Personally, I don't care for looking at an EVF. I've tried EVFs from the Sony A33 to the NEX-6 and NEX-7, the Olympus EM1, the Fuji XE1, the Sony A7, and I find them disconcerting, ignoring any issues of lag, "night blindness", dynamic range, etc.

But they bring with them the technical benefits of mirrorless (AF accuracy, lack of shutter vibration & noise) as well as live view (previsualization of exposure, white balance) and on-screen displays (the feature I miss most is the level). When I switched from Sony to Nikon after trying the A77 2+ years ago, it wasn't because of the EVF. I do prefer the OVF in a DSLR, but would have been content with the EVF. I expect that at some point in the future, I will be using a Nikon F mount camera with an EVF.

Lot of folks seem to love Nex6, 7, A7, A7R and dont miss the OVF?

I'm sure that's true; lots don't miss the OVF. And I'm sure many will miss it, but decide that it's a worthwhile tradeoff.

Nobody at the beginning of digital thought it was good enough to replace film, not even close. It wasn't simply a nostalgia thing then, it simply wasn't as good. nowadays it's (obviously) a different story though, so the comparison is still a way off as EVF and OVF there are advantages in.each camp, but like film vs digital EVF will eventually completely replace OVF... except for nostalgia purposes.

I wrote above about the change from RF to TTL SLRs, people didnt want to change over then either, but TTL offered much more than a RF could (within the limits of technology available at the time) such as DoF preview, accurate framing, focussing through the lens etc and eventually it won out, despite the naysaying, because it was a better compositional aid at the end of the day. EVF is the next evolution of that, it adds more compositional aids than TTL OVF ever could so eventually will replace it. It's just that people don't like change on the whole and will always find reasons not to change... but they get there eventually.

Most people didn't want cameras in their phones, just simply didn't want them to be present. Then they didn't want them to do email or go on the internet. Now phone makers don't make phones like that any more because people don't buy them, except in some niche circumstances.

 abortabort's gear list:abortabort's gear list
Sony RX100 Ricoh GR Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX10 Konica Minolta Maxxum 7D Sony Alpha DSLR-A850 +32 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads